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emps
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Post Post #825  (ISO)  » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:20 pm

i actually did.

In post 121, emps wrote:i think kerset is a good nk and rob/doc is a good rb

In post 122, ClaimNow wrote:Why kerset? He/she's hardly been active.

In post 123, emps wrote:pr hunting
"I guess gay erotic fanfics are the key to healthy game discussion." -HoldenGolden
"making friends is dangerous emps. always be on guard." -the worst
"Children are sticky." -MaryJoLisa
"What if a guy and a girl meet online, and then face to face, and have children. Are their kids real?" -MaryJoLisa

the worst
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Post Post #826  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:05 pm

In post 813, Aisa wrote:I like feedback so if anyone has any, fire away.

I promised some feedback - here I go. This is actually abnormally difficult because you just played a really solid game.

You replaced into a TPR slot who was at risk of falling into the PoE pool and potentially being lynched, just by virtue of your predecessor's posts and lack of activity. The best thing to do in this situation is to post enough to be townread, but without either: 1) underselling it, being overconfident in your entitlement to survive, or focusing too much on your survival (these are town power role perspective slips); or 2) kicking down doors and painting a target on your back. I think you did this pretty much perfectly, whether incidentally or by design. your opening readlist was:


In post 515, Aisa wrote:Leaning town on:
Mack
emps

Null:
Dyrenz/Sera Masumi
eekveek/Claim

Leaning scum:
Rob
Doc


Some things I really liked about this post:
- your take on Mack was elegant and effective. One of the things that prompted me to heavily reevaluate my read on him was that other newer folks were just like "this dude is town". I kind of recognised that my initial read was equally attributable to newness and scumminess, and you should definitely feel that you played a big part in Mack being taken off the table as a lynch

- your reaction to Claim didn't look like you were scum. Robb tunnelled Claim for policy reasons (which is something that could come from either alignment, whether pushing a mislynch, earnestly pushing a lynch, or bussing). emps immediately flipped on Claim, as though he has prior knowledge that the posts came from the scum pt ("TMI" was the soft scumtell for emps here). In a world where either of these guys were scum, they were trying to dramatise the pt slip situation in order to look like they weren't scum with Claim. if you look at something and have a feeling like "this person wants to look like they aren't associated with this caught scum", I'd always encourage reevaluation. now we come to the inverse: you nullread Claim by his ingame content, and asked the mod a question to try and clarify whether or not it was a scumslip. In a world where you are scum with Claim, you have seen him hard scumslip, then tried to nullread him through the situation. This is like, the typical spot to look for scumbuddies in readlists. Which means you didn't try to capitalise on the scumflip to look towny. This is a pretty abstract tell, sorry for the long-winded explanation, but I think the considered approach you took to this was ironically anti-associative.

- within 4 hours, you reevaluated your read on Robb using both ingame reasoning and supporting meta. this was within 5 posts ingame, as well. I think scum in this situation let their readlists simmer a little longer before heavily reevaluating. your reevaluated read on Robb was also correct which is a huge bonus.


the main critique I'd make of the reads is the read on emps, obviously. you should take this as a feather in your cap though for a few reasons. firstly, you reevaluated this read and reached an entirely correct conclusion. but also the fact you were willing to talk to me (former scumread) about emps (former townread) in such good faith come d3 was really impressive. actually you handled my replace-in in incredibly good faith; paranoia is very easy to have, and very easy to fake as scum. what I liked about your paranoia is that you stated it, we had a quick chat about it, then you went back to reevaluating my slot's alignment at face value. this breaks down tunnels; it's really solid townplay.

ok back to the emps read.

you cited 152-159 as the main posts which you agreed with - I think he raised some points, but I think the way he conducted himself in them was pretty scum indicative. is a good starting point; at a policy level he's not wrong about Cyrus. but when he talks about Cyrus pushing everyone, he is really conspicuously talking about Cyrus' towngame. emps continues to use townreading language around Cyrus' slot, despite having no stated stance on it and being comfortable with the lynch going through. this isn't immediately obvious from this post alone, but when sitting back and thinking about his ISO up to this point, I found his stance on Cyrus to be opportunistic.

after emps' vote on doc he also waits thru Cyrus posting then Mack posting once, until Mack posts a second time criticising emps' vote on doc. within 3 minutes, emps has reappeared to defend himself and his reasoning for the doc vote; this has signs of someone who is actively checking the thread, but not looking to actively engage others in solving discussions and advance the gamestate. I agree with Mack's take here that doc's posting was pretty transparently misguided, but I understand I was spoiled on Doc's alignment :P; the most scum indicative part of emps case against doc is that he feels doc was trying to pocket Cyrus.

so from a cynical duck's pov this series of posts was:
> shading Cyrus without trying to sort his alignment
> voting doc for nulltells
> lurking until called out on the vote
> scrambling to find a reason to justify the vote afterwards


again this is from the deep dark recesses of my paranoia; the fact you checked yourself on emps and evaluated against my read in good faith is actually a huge pro.


I've talked at great length about this, so I'll keep the rest of my commentary brief (it's mostly just net positive): I got the feeling through the game that you really believed in your reads. the way you'd play devil's advocate when we were all dogpiling the scum!emps theory, the way you'd chime in to defend your Mack townread, etc.

you consistently engaged with other slots in good faith, and then reconsidered their alignment outside of real-time interactions. this makes you much less likely to fall for scum smooth talking, and much more likely to pick up on more nuanced alignment tells.

you were present in the game and kept the gamestate moving in the right direction, without explicitly being LOUD (a la myself, dongempire, Robb) and painting a target on your back as a town power role.



you should be very proud of this game. it wasn't exactly a super hard solve, but a win is a win: you were quite fundamental in keeping town cohesive and advancing the late gamestate into a town win.
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the worst
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Post Post #827  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:05 pm

that got long winded :U
I'm prone to waxing poetic. if any of that makes no sense at all, just met me know. :P
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cyrus62
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Post Post #828  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:23 pm

so all and all when emps turnd on me you knew he was scum . any way the game im working on is looking good i hope you and emps/doc/dong join it it will be invite only.

the worst
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Post Post #829  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:29 pm

definitely keep me posted about the game you're designing!

i don't really play large games all that often so if it's over ~13 people i might struggle
i'll let you know at the time, though :D
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cyrus62
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Post Post #830  (ISO)  » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:45 pm

oh trust me every one will struggle so your fit right in.

Aisa
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Post Post #831  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:38 am

Thank you @tw, this is really long and in-depth, plus things that were just luck you're attributing to my skill :P

In post 826, the worst wrote:You replaced into a TPR slot who was at risk of falling into the PoE pool and potentially being lynched, just by virtue of your predecessor's posts and lack of activity. The best thing to do in this situation is to post enough to be townread, but without either: 1) underselling it, being overconfident in your entitlement to survive, or focusing too much on your survival (these are town power role perspective slips); or 2) kicking down doors and painting a target on your back. I think you did this pretty much perfectly, whether incidentally or by design.

I decided to broadly match the activity levels from the VT game I'd just finished, but I was otherwise fortunate that there were other loud enough players to bait the NK.

Some things I really liked about this post:
- your take on Mack was elegant and effective. One of the things that prompted me to heavily reevaluate my read on him was that other newer folks were just like "this dude is town". I kind of recognised that my initial read was equally attributable to newness and scumminess, and you should definitely feel that you played a big part in Mack being taken off the table as a lynch

That is the one thing I feel most proud of, so thanks.

emps continues to use townreading language around Cyrus' slot, despite having no stated stance on it and being comfortable with the lynch going through. this isn't immediately obvious from this post alone, but when sitting back and thinking about his ISO up to this point, I found his stance on Cyrus to be opportunistic.

after emps' vote on doc he also waits thru Cyrus posting then Mack posting once, until Mack posts a second time criticising emps' vote on doc. within 3 minutes, emps has reappeared to defend himself and his reasoning for the doc vote; this has signs of someone who is actively checking the thread, but not looking to actively engage others in solving discussions and advance the gamestate. I agree with Mack's take here that doc's posting was pretty transparently misguided, but I understand I was spoiled on Doc's alignment :P; the most scum indicative part of emps case against doc is that he feels doc was trying to pocket Cyrus.

Interesting. Shall go back and read again. I did get a bit overwhelmed when catching up, so I stopped trying to keep track of who was suspecting whom D1.

I've talked at great length about this, so I'll keep the rest of my commentary brief (it's mostly just net positive): I got the feeling through the game that you really believed in your reads. the way you'd play devil's advocate when we were all dogpiling the scum!emps theory, the way you'd chime in to defend your Mack townread, etc.

Usually I don't. I've noticed that unless I have a particularly strong opinion, I tend to subconsciously sheep whatever the consensus seems to be. Hence me thinking emps was town D1, and coming around when enough people started saying he was scum. Playing devil's advocate was me trying to counteract this tendency/do my homework before blindly sheeping all of you.

the worst
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Post Post #832  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:28 pm

Ahhh, that's understandable. Checking yourself on that read in that instance was smart. Sheeping consensus while you catch up or get invested in a game isn't always a bad thing, I don't think - as long as you're ready to keep your reads fluid and keep a keen eye for any first hand tells.

I definitely don't think the d1 emps scumread was "easy" to get; I think I arrived there by luck and by having experienced his hyperactive towngame, more than much else. :oops: hopefully the contrarian read helped put that in perspective a bit, though.
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PenguinPower
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Post Post #833  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:23 pm

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