Open 715 - White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Flubbernugget]

VOTE: Korina

[havingfitz]

Bella has contacted me today and is on V/LA for 24 hours.

What's up mod? Did the Bella v/la get extended?
COA and QM due prods as well.

I finally get back and activity takes a deeper dive. ffs

[havingfitz]

Are the people voting Korina doing so because you think he's scum or because you're tired of his shit policy?

[havingfitz]

Also, Fitz, it's called a gambit reaction-test. I normally do it d1

I know it was a fcuking gambit. And no issues with the first iteration of it.

Then with your crap-ton of self meta on how you operate the remaining iterations of your gambit are just lame ass annoyances that make town more likely to policy you and allow scum greater latitude on whether or not they want to participate. In fact...scum's probably more likely to vote you if you're scum than town at this point.

Have your "gambit reaction-tests" uncovered anyrhing for you? You aren't voting anyone atm and two of your three D1 votes have been on yourself. Smh....

[AnonymousGhost]

Tired of his bullshit.

>whines about nothing getting done
>does something "drastic" w/o any game solving content
>rinse and repeat

@Quick Maker

- I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think your town read on me is crap. Do you have any thoughts on my case against Shadpearl? Have any of your reads changed based from when you last posted them?

[havingfitz]

Almost...you still suspect Shad?

Why is QM off the table today?

[Korina]

No, if we vote the mod to be lynched, then the game can't be progressed, therefore, we've done something drastic. :^)

[havingfitz]

Have your "gambit reaction-tests" uncovered anyrhing for you? You aren't voting anyone atm and two of your three D1 votes have been on yourself.

???

[Almost50]

Almost...you still suspect Shad?

Nothing has changed yet, so.. I dunno yet.

[Quick Maker]

I have not heard from Maker in a while. I have a few posts in our PT that he hasn't addressed and since I was under the impression that we would talk about all the posts we make and since Maker hasn't posted in our PT in a while, I am not really sure what to do....

Tired of his bullshit.

>whines about nothing getting done
>does something "drastic" w/o any game solving content
>rinse and repeat

@Quick Maker

- I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think your town read on me is crap. Do you have any thoughts on my case against Shadpearl? Have any of your reads changed based from when you last posted them?

I was under the assumption that you were a very inexperienced player/didn't have a very good understanding of the game. After Meta Diving you, I can see that you are quite competent as either alignment and I agree that TRing you based on what you had done wasn't a fantastic read. Still, I am left with you questioning a TR on yourself. To put it more plainly, Occam's Razor would say you are probably Town given your play. The two options are between you being authentic and are Town or you are faking things to get TR. It's my understanding of the game that Scum always have an agenda to push, and as such, are much less concerned with generating a TR with "cheap tricks."

I was waiting for a "Big Post" from fitz because I Meta Dived him as well and it seems he is generally a slow starter to games, but ends up making some lengthy posts. I don't have enough Meta on fitz to say if he is Town or Scum based on Meta, however, I can say he is still within his Scum range. Based on play, however, I am slightly SRing fitz based on him not explaining his reason for his vote on us in the post that he voted us.

I wanted to point out that Korina, while could make for a decent choice for PL given they self hammer in LyLo, I will say that to PL someone it should really require a clear pattern of behavior. Because of this, I don't think I am willing to PL Korina because they only have a single completed game on site.

I think Not_Mafia's play is unacceptable and impossible to read. Therefore:

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[havingfitz]

I was waiting for a "Big Post" from fitz

Who are you quoting?

I think Not_Mafia's play is unacceptable and impossible to read.

Did you "meta dive" N_M as well? Or are your comments/vote on him more policy-esque or omgusy?

[Quick Maker]

We haven't done a full meta dive, but I have had experience playing with Not_Mafia when they did indeed play in this manner. They were scum, but I don't think it's very AI for them. At best, it might be weak.

However, Not_Mafia has all but explicitly confirmed that they are not trying to win. They are now unlikely to actually be helpful in this game, so their play now certainly is unacceptable. Our only scumreads at the moment are weak so even if Not_Mafia is null to us their lynch is worth it, in my opinion.

-Maker (last post was Quick)

[Not_Mafia]

You're wrong

[Almost50]

@Quick: Did you not take note when I said N_M actually town-told? Ir do you not trust in my ability to read him?

Going back through my reads I realized I could actually write off CoA as well. (Check why I TR'd him in the first place). That's 3 players I have already dashed out completely, which is even better than I would have ever expected on D1.

[Almost50]

Also writing off Shad (just because)

[Vijarada]

The shear amount of people voting or willing to vote Korina strongly indicates he's town.

This is like exactly something that a scum would say in order to jump off a wagon! If somebody is incredibly awful, fully intends on throwing the game if they are town, and is acting in a way that it would look scummier not to lynch them, this sort of thing is unhelpful!

[Vijarada]

OK, this has started with Korina causing chaos. I don't see scum going down that route from the get go because of the obvious downside to it for this specific setup. However, I also can say safely this isn't optimum town play and especially so when we have a posting limit.

@Korina: Unless you're a crazy scum player, could you please tone it down so you won't be providing scum with a proper smoke screen for them to hide behind? Thank you

@Redflavour: Do you really think Scum!Korina would play the way he did given that we only need to lynch 2 scums and that scum are very unlikely to bus? I can see 3-4 players in this game who would probably vote Korina for that, but of he ever flipped scum at any point of the game then we can safely deduce those who seriously pushed him are not scum with him, so it's most detrimental for scum to be playing this way.

God! Even I didn't understand what I'm saying having trued to reread it.

OK..

Scum!Korina acts crazy and gets a wagon going on him. His partners either join it (too risky) or oppose it (too obvious). So what IS the scum motive behind his play?

I mean if Korina is scum here, which he may well be, this is straight out of the textbook obfuscating and all that sort of thing.

[Russian Roulette]

Told ya so. Glad you agree now. (sigh)

[insert standard "RED IS STILL NOT HERE" one-liner]
Gamesolving time.

Here's where the gamestate is at:

Me, and will likely get NK'd because me: Russian Roulette
Clearly town and will likely get NK'd: Almost50, CoA, Shadpearl

Likely town but are LyLo liabilities and need to sheep others if it gets to that point: Not_Mafia, Korina

That leaves:
Flubber: Someone I've been lowkey scumreading for a while.
Quick Maker: Very difficult to read.
Klick/Vijarada: I do believe the replace-out is potentially scum indicative, and the primary person to push back against that has been Klick's successor, who has to argue that. Neither have done anything particularly townish.
Bellaphant: Lynchbait and lurky as shit.
Ghost: Beginning to townread the latter half of her ISO. People have called her out all game for not contributing and she has, true to her word, not actually improved her playstyle at all.
havingfitz: Also hasn't done anything particularly townish, but his game here doesn't remind me of his scumgame very much at all.
Alchemist: By far the scummiest person in the playerlist.

We get 3 mislynches. My proposed lynch order:
Alchemist --> Flubber --> Vijarada --> QM --> Bellaphant

Edit: as of the above post, I'm changing it to
Alchemist --> Vijarada --> Flubber --> QM --> Bellaphant

This puts Flubber and QM at the "lynch right before LyLo" spots and should be allowed to contribute to the LyLo decision.

VOTE: Alchemist

- Mathdino

[Quick Maker]

@Quick: Did you not take note when I said N_M actually town-told? Ir do you not trust in my ability to read him?

Going back through my reads I realized I could actually write off CoA as well. (Check why I TR'd him in the first place). That's 3 players I have already dashed out completely, which is even better than I would have ever expected on D1.

My problem with this statement is the same problem I have with NM's play. I can't trust you because people lie and mislead you and if that isn't happening, then they may not even be right.

The lack of context that NM provides for his actions leaves little to digest what his motivations are. There is virtually nothing there objectively, and if someone's play is strictly subjective, then should never make it to LyLo. This is a rule that applies to not only players like NM, but some very competent players as well. Players who leave things open to interpretation based on their playstyle in such a way that reading them is an impossibly arduous task and I would lynch them D1 based on principle any day.

I don't care how you frame it, without a

given

context from NM, we are left completely in the dark into the motivations of them in any objective way.

~Quick

[AnonymousGhost]

Spoiler: my impression of the current game state

@Quick Maker

- I like how you entertain the possibilities/scenarios of all your reads so far since it initially feels town.

I question your scum read on Not_Mafia. It sounds more like a policy lynch born out of Not_Mafia being inscrutable to the both of you.

@Athena & @Bell

- Haven't seen either of you two around. When you two return, could you give us a reads list based on the new content? Thanks.

@RussianRoulette - Specifically MathDino

- Can you explain why Klick's replace out is potentially scum indicative? I'm assuming that it has something to do with Korina's behavior since that was the big thing that happened before the replace out.

[Almost50]

The shear amount of people voting or willing to vote Korina strongly indicates he's town.

This is like exactly something that a scum would say

in order to jump off a wagon

! If somebody is incredibly awful, fully intends on throwing the game if they are town, and is acting in a way that it would look scummier not to lynch them, this sort of thing is unhelpful!

Dafuq??!

To "jump off a wagon" one needs to be ON THE WAGON to begin with, and I never ever was on Korina's wagon, nor have I -in any way, shape or form- even implied a SR there.

I mean, what is it that makes me a magnet for scum reads by every single noob in town? (And yes, I do realize it's been over 16 months since you joined, but with less than 500 posts and most of them not even made in game threads you are still a noob, plus it's the first time you play me. I assure you I mean no offense.)

And -more importantly- why do they all seem to think I'm easy to push with really bad reasoning??

I mean, I promised someone I will try to be more composed facing absurd cases, so I sure am not going to do "that thing" I did in "that game" over again, but still it posses me off.

@Vij: Hey, bud! Would you mind explaining the SR on Korina in the first place? And NO, you're not allowed to:
a) deflect
b) use someone else's reasoning
c) change the narrative

GO!

[Almost50]

I mean if Korina is scum here, which he may well be, this is straight out of the textbook obfuscating and all that sort of thing.

And what if he is Town? Will I still be scum (because I "knew he was Town and tried to earn me some Town cred by staying odd his wagon")??

Let me ask you this: Would YOU play the way Korina did/does if you were scum? (I'm not saying you are/aren't one alignment or another here. I'm asking a hypothetical question).

Oh, and another one: Of you were Korina's Scum p and saw him playing this way, would you go out of your way to save him?

Answer these two questions as well as the question in my previous post and you may earn a ticket to watch the Socceroos in Russia this summer!

[Almost50]

VOTE: Alchemist

I will sheep this NOT because I think it's necessarily the right call., but because:

1- We basically agree on our TRs
2- I think Alch could very well be scum with AG whom I wanted lynched today, so a red flip there likely ends the game (at least in my own eyes).

[AnonymousGhost]

@Almost50 or @RussianMath

- Why is Alchemist scummy?

[Almost50]

@Almost50 or @RussianMath

- Why is Alchemist scummy?

To me it's more of an associative to you. Maybe you should ask me why you're still scummy in my eyes instead.

But I'll save you the trouble: I've seen you town it up real hard when you were actually SCUM, so I don't see how Town!You can't obv!Town here. How about that?