In post 956, Raya36 wrote: In post 950, Battle Mage wrote:
Please do, and in particular I would draw your attention to my responses to yessirree today on the NK speculation. On T-Bone interactions, at the end of the day, he was town, so there's a limit to how great I'm going to look from that. I suppose (and this was yessirree's point), it's a question of whether you can demonstrate my approach to T-Bone was logically flawed or bad faith. The fact T-Bone swore blind I was scum without giving a good reason is not a substitute for a case, and given how yesterday played out I'm even more determined that we hold people to a higher standard of argument today. So detail is very welcome.
So basically my biggest concern was during D2 I really felt that you vs T-Bone was TvS which obviously would imply you're scum. The reason for this is because of the way you two were arguing. You were both constantly trying to discredit each other.
Both of you were being misleading of the other and pushing in a way that felt like you each knew the other's alignment and wanted the other gone
.
Bold can't be true though can it? If we were TvS, 1 of us would know the other's alignment, and the other wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely buy the TvS rationale, because I thought the same yesterday. T-Bone didn't show any interest in engaging with me in a broader discussion about things which were AI, and didn't show any interest in really objectively sorting me, or any other players (until the last minute when he pushed a counter-wagon), which I perceived to be scummy. However, my general experience of the interaction you describe - where 2 players push each other very hard and conspicuously - is that they are often TvT. Simply put, where's the benefit to scum-BM of pushing T-Bone as I did? I would more likely have faded into the background, and just NKed him if I really wanted him gone as it's less conspicuous.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
(T-Bone convinced you're scum and doing everything to get you eliminated, you seeing T-Bone as a threat and/or T-Bone forcing you into that 1v1.)
This isn't what happened though - I suspected T-Bone and T-Bone OMGUSed me, so he didn't force me into a 1v1. And as above, in general when scum perceive somebody to be a threat, the last thing they do is 1v1 them during the day.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
It is possible that you were both tunneled on each other and I'm willing to consider this if someone can convince me why BM is town here.
I don't think I was tunnelled on T-Bone, I think I had good reason for thinking he was scum and I was wrong. I explicitly didn't exclude other possibilities, or claim he was "confscum" or anything like that. Always elim the scummiest player is a manta which minimises regrets. I don't want to dwell too much on T-Bone's play yesterday out of courtesy, but I think if he'd engaged with me as I asked on multiple occasions he could have avoided being mis-elimmed. Instead he resorted to AtE and an inadequately explained OMGUS tunnel on me, which wasn't compelling.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
A few examples of you being misleading are below.
586 You introduce T-Bone's plan as guaranteeing no info which is not entirely true and misleading
641 Misleading in that it sounds like you're saying T-Bone didn't want to use the track at all (rather than saying he didn't want to use it in an optimal way)
706 Last point misleading, he did want to use the abilities
These examples all effectively amount to the same thing, so I'll address them with 1 response:
In all cases, although the wording is arguably unclear as I abbreviated, the point was obvious - in posts 706 and 641 my feeling was that T-Bone pushed very hard to get on the council, only to not want to use the abilities
to good effect
(his plan was to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody within the council, which would preclude us from either blocking a kill or securing a red-check). Moreover, to the extent my wording was sloppy, the substance of the point was in any case correct from my perspective and so I didn't take something not scummy and frame it as scummy - I noted something scummy and didn't choose my words carefully in my haste to explain why it was scummy. I originally responded to this in post 720. On 586, I considered the information gained from T-Bone's plan to be of nil value - as we discussed subsequently, I concede it would have had some value (we could have known whether scum killed or not and we potentially missed out on a green-check by protecting me), although I stand by my broader point that it would have, all else being equal, resulted in lower quality information than tracking someone who could actually have committed the kill. You may argue in retrospect that I was wrong about optimal use of the night actions, but I don't think my view at the time was stupid or completely irrational. And crucially, there isn't a particularly good rationale for scum to mislead about matters of fact - a maximum of 1 of us on the N1 council was scum, and so it would be pointless to lie about what was or wasn't said. And equally as I said in respect of T-Bone, it isn't as simple as assuming scum would deliberately push for sub-optimal nightplay - it depends on the context and what they would achieve from the night actions - hence understanding motive goes a step beyond what someone said, to why they said it.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
As for the kill, I do believe there is a higher chance someone on the council would target someone else on the council than someone off council would.
Especially because the kill either failed the first night because of targeting on council (in which case you're town),
or it is at least known that council healed on council the first night and it would be risky to aim there
.
We had a protracted debate yesterday in the thread where it was concluded unanimously that it was optimal to not use the protect - I don't think you really believe the bit in bold is plausible.
On the bit in italics...the only person on-council who could have targetted me N1 is you - presumably you're not claiming that to be the case, so N1 any kill would have been off-council targetting on-council.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
That said, it is also important to consider that scum off wagon wouldn't want to narrow their off wagon pool if they thought we'd only be searching off-wagon (I don't believe this is true because in this case BM is town (on council) and has enough suspicion on him that it would be safe to assume town wouldn't just hunt on wagon).
I have mixed feelings about the likely confidence levels of off-wagon scum. Although the stronger evidence for your point is yesterday's wagon on Nono.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
Further to the above, we've played together a few times I think? how does my play this game compare to those other games? For my strengths, I'm not a difficult person to meta, so good to get your take on that.
I'm honestly not that great at meta-reading since I pick up more on personality than I do play. But I do read you as a competent player and someone who is good at scum which may be where a lot of my suspicion is coming from.
I think we just finished a game together where I was scum. Admittedly it was a particularly poor game from the scumteam as a whole, but it was a decent illustration of what my scum-meta normally is - lurk and do minimum (with some exceptions). I can be good and active as scum but it's pretty hit and miss. As town in small games I'm fairly consistent in my dogged and zealous approach.
In post 956, Raya36 wrote:
yeah that's the bit which interested me: if you have a pool of 2, and 1 is cleared, doesn't that just make the other one scum? so why would your first thought be to open up the pool to 2 other players (unless you needed multiple elims)?
I'm not really sure what you specifically envisage by someone becoming "interaction cleared" in this context.
It means the other one is probably scum and that's of course who I would be pushing for but I like to rank my townreads as a sort of backup plan if I'm wrong.
Interaction cleared would be for example nono and moz who I've been "interaction clearing" because of A50. In the context of T-Bone maybe there was someone who was really pushing against the T-Bone elimination who I could townread for that to a lesser extent. Idk, I haven't really had a chance to go back and look over everything yet.
Minor point, but in my view it it's pretty hard to interaction-clear someone based on their approach to a town-elim. Interesting you assume, as I did, that those against the T-Bone wagon should get some town-cred. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption, but it is an assumption.
) In fact, if BM's scum, this exactly is the kind of argument I'd expect them to use in this situation. And for the record I don't really TR mozzyman either for just brushing it off as TvT .
