Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over


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Post Post #1975 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 2:11 am

Post by Dunnstral »

Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)
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Post Post #1976 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 2:35 am

Post by unwnd »

I've rolled my eyes so hard they're in the back of my head
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Post Post #1977 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 3:02 am

Post by Dunnstral »

You make me afraid to get your alignment wrong
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Post Post #1978 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 4:59 am

Post by absinthe »

In post 1965, catboi wrote:
In post 1951, unwnd wrote:Catboi, I don't know if you mentioned it but I looked back on the way votes went D1.

Which was

Me (The Wall) -> Briar (The Keep) -> Ana (The Keep) and then You (The Gate).

What was your reason to go into the gate if you were townreading Briar? Which I'm pretty sure you stated you were.
I already explained this: I townread both people at the keep and figured me going there was unnecessary, people said they were okay with me going to the gate, I wanted to put pressure on other people to take action because I felt like we'd be able to read into people's spontaneous decisionmaking more.
absinthe wrote:Would the other townies please post?
Sorry, I've been around but felt like there wasn't anything for me to respond to directly and I didn't have the time and energy to reread Briar interactions today, that's my big project for tomorrow
Did you get anything from the spontaneous decision-making?
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Post Post #1979 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 5:10 am

Post by Lukewarm »

@Absinthe, how long do you want to leave yourself to solve the Gate, post Wall flip?

Trying to get a Wall deadline in my head
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Post Post #1980 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 6:12 am

Post by absinthe »

In post 1979, Lukewarm wrote:@Absinthe, how long do you want to leave yourself to solve the Gate, post Wall flip?

Trying to get a Wall deadline in my head
A couple days at minimum? Enough to think about the Wall results if we don't lose immediately. Getting the Wall right is critical.
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Post Post #1981 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 6:15 am

Post by absinthe »

In post 1975, Dunnstral wrote:Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)
What games have you played with scum-unwnd?
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Post Post #1982 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 7:08 am

Post by unwnd »

In post 1977, Dunnstral wrote:You make me afraid to get your alignment wrong
I'm not going to freak out post-game or hold it against you forever, you have to understand I'm taking the same risk right now as well, so me being all pissy sometimes is not injustice of being misread it's being misunderstood

Or at least feeling that way i guess
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Post Post #1983 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 7:28 am

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 1980, absinthe wrote:
In post 1979, Lukewarm wrote:@Absinthe, how long do you want to leave yourself to solve the Gate, post Wall flip?

Trying to get a Wall deadline in my head
A couple days at minimum? Enough to think about the Wall results if we don't lose immediately. Getting the Wall right is critical.
Is there anything you want me to get fresh eyes on?

Like I want to be helpful, but I am feeling a little lost on how to help you. Like both decisions are mostly going to fall on you, so I want to help you figure them out, but then I also feel like the things I bring up as suspicious, you don't agree with, so like, am I helping or really just distracting you?
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Post Post #1984 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 8:10 am

Post by absinthe »

You're helping, definitely.

How are you leaning right now regarding scum in the Wall?
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Post Post #1985 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 8:12 am

Post by Marashu »

Preview:
Official Vote Count 2.07
Image




Gatecatboi (0):
Something_Smart (0):
absinthe (0):
Not Voting (3): catboi, Something_Smart, absinthe

Wallunwnd (0):
Lukewarm (0):
Dunnstral (0):
Not Voting (3): unwnd, Lukewarm, Dunnstral

KeepControlled by the
Mafia
[/mech]

Deadline:
(expired on 2021-05-22 23:00:54).


Mod notes:
:D[/area]
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Post Post #1986 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 8:22 am

Post by Dunnstral »

In post 1981, absinthe wrote:
In post 1975, Dunnstral wrote:Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)
What games have you played with scum-unwnd?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85197&user_select[]=32950

Scum partner here is FL and you can see how unwnd performs theatre, andhas some complaints, and posts a lot. Big word count.

After looking that game over I wouldn't feel comfortable towning them for anything in this game, they put their all into scum
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Post Post #1987 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 8:38 am

Post by Lukewarm »

If you think that Unwnd's posts for the first half of the day were coming from sleep deprivation / frustration, then I am back to thinking it was Dunn.
In post 1298, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 1288, Dunnstral wrote:The problem is that Luke is right but they're arguing that it's suboptimal, not that it's scum motivated

Because if I'm scum, and infinity is also scum, and s_s wants infinity at the wall, then there's no problem with that unless you think I got spooked for a different reason, which sn all town at the wall (though from your pov there should be doubt about me being in that position as scum in the first place)
There was another reason I thought Scum!dunn might have done it, but there is not point in going over it (might make unwnd angry :lol: ) and the thought will actually resolve itself after the other minigames are revealed anyways.
At the time, I was thinking "maybe scum!Dunn got spooked because he wanted to ensure a 1:1:1 split" But then I did not press it because that would only make sense if Infinity was town. So I said the idea would probably resolve its once the keep was flipped.

I also did not like his transition from saying "lets solve the keep first" to "lets solve the keep last." Because the reality of the situation is that that would have been very, very bad for town, but good for scum!dunn (I will concede that town did not know it would be bad for town at the time). But, like a lot of his defenses early on during the day revolved around "well I can't be scum with Infinity, and therefore I cannot be scum." So scum!dunn would have benefited a lot from infinity remaining the assumed scum for as long as possible.

I also did not like the transition on his read on me

Spoiler:
In post 1028, Dunnstral wrote:Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi
In post 1235, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 1178, absinthe wrote:
In post 1028, Dunnstral wrote:Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi
I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.
All Luke talks about is:

-Keep Mechanics
-My briar/ana read
-my mech talk about scum going into the keep and how that relates to my briar/ana read
In post 1240, Dunnstral wrote:I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience
In post 1285, Dunnstral wrote:Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now


He came into Day 2 with me as his scum solve, seemed suspicious of me only talking about mechanics / his comments from Day 1 regarding Ana/Briar. Then I started talking to him, and we talked about his comments from Day 1 and mechanics. Suddenly he TR me.

Even in the moment, I really did not understand why he would have switched

Spoiler:
In post 1287, Lukewarm wrote:Dunn, not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything, but like, what changed your mind from

This:
spoiler=]
In post 1028, Dunnstral wrote:Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi
In post 1235, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 1178, absinthe wrote:
In post 1028, Dunnstral wrote:Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi
I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.
All Luke talks about is:

-Keep Mechanics
-My briar/ana read
-my mech talk about scum going into the keep and how that relates to my briar/ana read
In post 1237, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 1198, unwnd wrote:I think I can see your worldview but I'm going to be honest

Thinking about mech in less conventional ways usually fucks with my head. I can work with reasoning being applied to mech but the reason I've retracted my read on S_S is that his content is almost all mech and I shouldn't just give it a pass because it sounds interesting
So you need to explain how you're ruling out Luke here
In post 1240, Dunnstral wrote:I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience
/spoiler]
to this:
In post 1285, Dunnstral wrote:Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now


And I was thinking, nothing that I have talked about should have convinced you that I am town if you were scum reading me for the reasons you said you were scum reading me. And so I was worried that he changed stances because my scum read on him was faltering. (and the IC stated they had a hard TR on me <3 so it would be harder to miselim me regardless)

You asked earlier why Dunn would have waited to put himself into the keep, and I think that he was not super pressured into doing it because Briar+Catboi were already locked into different zones, so there was no worry of them getting iced into a Day 1 loss. And the game state did not look like we were all locking in any time soon. I personally felt like we were not going to make any progress for a while. Then I locked in, you immediately locked in, then Dunn saw the arrangements moving forward, and he locked in too.

Like the game was stagnated with 5 open slots. He was in no rush to lock in. You and I locked in. He quick locks in.

His stated reason for quick locking was to keep Infnity from the Wall, and when he said it, it felt true. But now... that could be his true reason as town!dunn or as scum!dunn
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Post Post #1988 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 8:45 am

Post by Lukewarm »

Big things being

His scum read to town read on me did not feel genuine

A lot of his defenses early on in the day required Infinity to be scum to make sense AND he was advocating we don't flip the Keep first (like the two combined are bad)

His quick lock in Day 1
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Post Post #1989 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 8:52 am

Post by Lukewarm »

And putting myself in his shoes if he were town. During the Day 1 quick vote. He sees SS suggest Infinity goes to the wall, and he decides I need to stop that from happening. He votes, but does not say he is trying to stop SS from getting what he wanted or even just quote where S_S suggested Infinity go there? Or something? I do not like the 0 context surrounding his lock in.

But on the other hand, scum!dunn sees you and me both lock in, goes to scum chat and says "what do you guys think I should do" Briar says "lock into the Wall so we can guarantee the win at the Keep." He locks in with an otherwise empty post to give himself time to think of a townie reason.
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Post Post #1990 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 9:26 am

Post by absinthe »

In post 1986, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 1981, absinthe wrote:
In post 1975, Dunnstral wrote:Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)
What games have you played with scum-unwnd?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85197&user_select[]=32950

Scum partner here is FL and you can see how unwnd performs theatre, andhas some complaints, and posts a lot. Big word count.

After looking that game over I wouldn't feel comfortable towning them for anything in this game, they put their all into scum
Have you played with town-unwnd since that game?
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Post Post #1991 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 9:35 am

Post by Dunnstral »

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Post Post #1992 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 9:57 am

Post by unwnd »

Last one we were scum together, Dunn

That TM2020 game was so bad, makes me cringe looking at
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Post Post #1993 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 9:58 am

Post by absinthe »

Luke, I'm still trying to figure unwnd out (and Dunn), so don't let me totally dissuade you of that read.

I'm going through the game Dunn linked today, and will probably look at a couple other games, too.
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Post Post #1994 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Post by absinthe »

I was kinda hoping for some games where you were both town.

What was your alignment in the aborted TM game?
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Post Post #1995 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 10:02 am

Post by Dunnstral »

In post 1994, absinthe wrote:What was your alignment in the aborted TM game?
Both town in that one
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Post Post #1996 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 10:03 am

Post by Dunnstral »

In post 1992, unwnd wrote:Last one we were scum together, Dunn
You're right
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Post Post #1997 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 10:05 am

Post by unwnd »

I'm getting pretty close to just voting.

I just have a few things clarified so I'm not missing anything.

Luke, I'm pretty sure you're town. There is some doubts in some places but I'd be very impressed if you were scum here. I do note one behavior however and that's within your analysis you don't really come to a proper conclusion. Even your recent posts about you leaning back on Dunn, it sort of just ends. Your thought goes full circle and you pretty much say 'I can see town!dunn and scum!dunn doing this'. It begs the question why you wrote that all up and went through the trouble just to not formulate an endpoint. It's fine to give heady analysis and think about both perspectives, I do it all the time. That isn't my problem here, rather I just wonder what's stopping you from your own commitments. I remember your conviction being much stronger in the last time, but I am also aware that you are being more cautious after being wrong on ffery. I don't want to make that a proper excuse for you however.

I'll start somewhere else because I'm sure your response will either be a repeat of what you told me before (I'm just doubtful and don't want to tunnel again) or it might strike a nerve. Who do you lean when it comes to Catboi/S_S and why? This will be critical to Absin barring we get the Wall right, and I don't remember your stances on either
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Post Post #1998 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 10:09 am

Post by unwnd »

Here are some of my recent completed games. I think they are more relevant than a year ago when I was still getting my bearings. I also think the TM2020 game is a bad reflection but I idigress

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86232 (Scum win)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85416 (Scum win)
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=86226 (Town loss)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85985 (Town win, hydra with Cabd)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85864 (Town win, wasn't taking it serious)
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Post Post #1999 (ISO) » Sun May 16, 2021 10:40 am

Post by catboi »

In post 1978, absinthe wrote:
In post 1965, catboi wrote:
In post 1951, unwnd wrote:Catboi, I don't know if you mentioned it but I looked back on the way votes went D1.

Which was

Me (The Wall) -> Briar (The Keep) -> Ana (The Keep) and then You (The Gate).

What was your reason to go into the gate if you were townreading Briar? Which I'm pretty sure you stated you were.
I already explained this: I townread both people at the keep and figured me going there was unnecessary, people said they were okay with me going to the gate, I wanted to put pressure on other people to take action because I felt like we'd be able to read into people's spontaneous decisionmaking more.
absinthe wrote:Would the other townies please post?
Sorry, I've been around but felt like there wasn't anything for me to respond to directly and I didn't have the time and energy to reread Briar interactions today, that's my big project for tomorrow
Did you get anything from the spontaneous decision-making?
I think Dunn's hammering of the Wall was the most significant move, and at the start of this phase I felt it was a town move and his reasoning for it was sound. I still think it feels more like a town-motivated one but I'm struggling with the read right now for other reasons I'll be getting to in a moment.
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