Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[yessiree]

VC 1.8

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Vex Vience (2)

- LlamaFluff, Bambi Jay

Bambi Jay (2)

- RationalMadman, Kerset

T-Bone (1)

- Bingle

Bingle (1)

- Vex Vience

Kerset (1)

- Klick

Note Voting - T-Bone, Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-23 22:00:00)

[RationalMadman]

If I am wrong then vote your scumread in the vanillas. You are the one afraid to vote, not me. I don't need to blame Llama for the vote being wrong, Llama is one player in the game, I am responsible for my vote and read and Bambi is responsible for her towntelling or scumtelling. If I vote wrong, it's my and Bambi's fault, not Llama's.

If you think Vex is scum, vote Vex, if you think anyone is scum, vote them.

Blaming a scapegoat for things when we miseliminate is a coward's way of avoiding responsibility for their vote being accurate and their fault. Even if everyone screams at you to vote someone that you Townread, even if they threaten to eliminate you if you don't, you must have an open mind and respond to the pressure solely with the intent to get scumreads eliminated or die yourself rather than eliminate scum, caving into the others and getting eliminated the next day phase as you're blamed if it goes wrong.

[Anastasia]

I don't really understand your play. It doesn't make sense to me why you'd want the most townread lover pair eliminated if you are scum, but it also doesn't make sense for me if you are town either. I don't think you really expect to be able to eliminate me/RM so it feels like it could be a refuge in audacity play to get yourself townread?

I think it could also be that you just don't get along very well with RM and it's not something that can be read into your alignment one way or another.

[RationalMadman]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

[Anastasia]

If I am wrong then vote your scumread in the vanillas. You are the one afraid to vote, not me. I don't need to blame Llama for the vote being wrong, Llama is one player in the game, I am responsible for my vote and read and Bambi is responsible for her towntelling or scumtelling. If I vote wrong, it's my and Bambi's fault, not Llama's.

If you think Vex is scum, vote Vex, if you think anyone is scum, vote them.

Blaming a scapegoat for things when we miseliminate is a coward's way of avoiding responsibility for their vote being accurate and their fault. Even if everyone screams at you to vote someone that you Townread, even if they threaten to eliminate you if you don't, you must have an open mind and respond to the pressure solely with the intent to get scumreads eliminated or die yourself rather than eliminate scum, caving into the others and getting eliminated the next day phase as you're blamed if it goes wrong.

If I had a scumread in the vanillas I'd vote for them.

This type of post is why I wish I was still with Kerset.

He'd never talk to me like this.

[Anastasia]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

That's just not the way I play though.

I'm not going to insist on my reads being correct when they are not very strong to begin with.

[T-Bone]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

This, btw, is the exact argument RM had before game 1.

It's wrong (still) but I can understand the argument.

Functionally, we have two sets of three players. one of those sets is hydrae. If the hydrae are better at reading the game they're more valuable, but that assumes the hydrae are better at reading the game. From each individual player's POV, solving in your own pool is easier, but that just means that half of the functionally 4 townies will have an easier time in either pool. It's not actually a mechanical advantage to eliminate in either pool and people should 100% just be going after their strongest scumread for the first lim. (or alternatively, their strongest scumread in a pool where they can locktown someone.)

Kerset, are we agreed that Llama is town, or am I personality biasing here?

It's only wrong if you're a VT or scum at this point.

[T-Bone]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

OOC: This Makes You A Bad Player (tm)

You cannot stand by a "strong read" on a town flipped player LOL. That it the hallmark of bad play LOL

[T-Bone]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

This, btw, is the exact argument RM had before game 1.

It's wrong (still) but I can understand the argument.

Functionally, we have two sets of three players. one of those sets is hydrae. If the hydrae are better at reading the game they're more valuable, but that assumes the hydrae are better at reading the game. From each individual player's POV, solving in your own pool is easier, but that just means that half of the functionally 4 townies will have an easier time in either pool. It's not actually a mechanical advantage to eliminate in either pool and people should 100% just be going after their strongest scumread for the first lim. (or alternatively, their strongest scumread in a pool where they can locktown someone.)

Kerset, are we agreed that Llama is town, or am I personality biasing here?

It's only wrong if you're a VT or scum at this point.

What I mean by that, as upon reading back that sounds incredibly vague and hostile.

Is that I, me, T-Bone, have a town Role PM. Therefore, I, me, T-Bone, have two shots at scum among the remaining lovers. I, me, T-Bone, am guaranteed to eliminate scum by sorting and ultimately targeting the lovers. That's where I'm at. Functionally, that's not the best thing for the VTs (because they have a similar 50-50 perspective), and it's not the best thing for the scum lover pair.

[RationalMadman]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

OOC: This Makes You A Bad Player (tm)

You cannot stand by a "strong read" on a town flipped player LOL. That it the hallmark of bad play LOL

You completely misread what I wrote. Nobody has flipped yet in the situation I described.

[T-Bone]

It looks like a pre-made excuse for when a scumread flips town to me, but okay if that's not what you meant, sure.

[Bambi Jay]

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

[RationalMadman]

If you can't stand by a read that's wrong, just because it flioped the way you didn't expect, you aren't forcing yoyrself to get rewarded or punished and won't be able to improve the reasoning behind your reads.

Idk what excuse you mean. If you vote someone and they flip Town, you say what? What are you even trying to say?

[Kerset]

Disorganization between RM&Ana might be a towntell. RM isn't kind of person that would sabotage partners plan to set up chain elim 505.

[Kerset]

If you give RM plan in PT that

, he would play along, because he likes that kind of scheming (based on his pregame talks?).

[Kerset]

T-Bone, is it your meta to talk just about mech staff? No votes, no interrogations.

[T-Bone]

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

He already did!

[T-Bone]

T-Bone, is it your meta to talk just about mech staff? No votes, no interrogations.

I can vote for you if that would make you feel better?? I'm not in a rush personally, I'm trying to solve some alignments.

[T-Bone]

If you can't stand by a read that's wrong, just because it flioped the way you didn't expect, you aren't forcing yoyrself to get rewarded or punished and won't be able to improve the reasoning behind your reads.

Idk what excuse you mean. If you vote someone and they flip Town, you say what? What are you even trying to say?

You say 'my bad' and reevaluate why your read was wrong, and thus reevaluate the other reads you have.

[LlamaFluff]

For Town!LLama, he knows he must get this shot correct between VV & Bambi Jay, because if he misses, he dies next and the town loses the game.

He must put maximum effort into his solve - to give the town the best odds of winning the game.

For Scum!Llama, he knows it doesn't matter what his solve is, he will die next elimination no matter which townie he pushes out for the first elim.

This creates a readable difference between what LlamaPuff does.

Or get this... like ive been telling VV: Why not try and get a solid town read on VV or Bambi? Doesnt that help a lot in solving me?

I still really have no idea why people are even afraid of me to such an extent when I only had maybe 10 or so posts with content last game. Its making me think that scum are just using it as an excuse to attack me when the otherwise would have no ability to because I *havent done anything scummy apart from being town-read last game*. Its a sample size of not even one. Its a sample size of maybe 10% of a game. I dont think anyone in this game has seen me play a game as town in at least four or five years, so apparently that makes me unreadable.

Also your last part of reasoning is very dangerously flawed. If I was scum here and know that I go tomorrow, you have given me so much power in deciding what the end of the game will look like. I pretty much get to decide what VT goes to the end, and setup as many interactions with lover pairs as I want that look like whatever I want them to look like. It goes way back, but had a game where town inadvertently did that to me and scum pretty much just coasted to an easy win.

[T-Bone]

I'm not afraid of you.

[Klick]

I'm also on Team Fearless

[T-Bone]

Llama should be afraid of me though. O.O

[RationalMadman]

You say 'my bad' and reevaluate why your read was wrong, and thus reevaluate the other reads you have.

Exactly, you don't unvote beforehand or vote a townread beforehand because you're too scared your read is wrong.

[T-Bone]

kk miscommunication