Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[Pavowski]

I thought about leaving this pagetop for somebody else, but nah, I'm gettin' it

[mc esther]

do you believe that "low-content" would be a fair assessment of your playstyle in general? do you believe it's a fair assessment of your play in this particular game?

[Pavowski]

do you believe that "low-content" would be a fair assessment of your playstyle in general? do you believe it's a fair assessment of your play in this particular game?

That's probably fair. For a short while I tried posting high-effort, high-content in my games, but 1) I'm not very good at that and 2) I tend not to have the time in the day for it.

So I play for fun and call things out when I see them and just accept the fact that it gets me scumread in the early game a fair bit.

[Auro]

I mean that limming town!GL with Bingles points in mind would be scum indicative on Bingle, but if GL were NK'd I wouldn't assume Bingle was behind it.

Why would you engage in preemptive NKA in the first place though?

Like... This is just introducing so much WIFOM into the thread.

If GL gets shot here, did Bingle do it for towncred? Did scum do it trying to frame Bingle? Did the CPR doc do it trying to save GL from the scum shot that was trying to frame Bingle of either alignment?

Just posting that makes it completely useless.

@GL: This is the redundancy I was referring to. Like why bring up the GL NK?
I'm a little concerned you didn't see this.

[GuiltyLion]

@GL: This is the redundancy I was referring to. Like why bring up the GL NK?
I'm a little concerned you didn't see this.

He brought it up the second time because Salsa asked him why he brought it up and he was trying to clarify his original post. How is that "redundant" when he was literally asked to explain??

I'm VERY concerned you don't see that

[LicketyQuickety]

A NK'd GL would be another story.

What do you mean by that?

I mean that limming town!GL with Bingles points in mind would be scum indicative on Bingle, but if GL were NK'd I wouldn't assume Bingle was behind it.

IMO, these kinds of reads (TvS) only work if both parties are acting like they

know

the other is Scum.

And didn't someone say we are not doing that in this game? Can't remember who said it. Might have been A50 or Bingle can't remember.

But anyways, I've recently had these reads go wrong and so am kinda apprehensive to give them much weight.

[LicketyQuickety]

If I don’t understand something, I'll ask.

sure, but it feels like you're trying to drag Pav into a debate about claims that he didn't make or arguments that aren't important. From my impression of his original 440, all Pav was saying was that if he were to

know

that I am town, he would then think that Bingle's shade on me might indicate Bingle scum. However, as soon as you say something like that it can poison the well for NKA (a non-Bingle scum team might shoot me in an attempt to make Bingle look bad), so he wanted to clarify that he doesn't also think me being NK'd would

further

make him suspect Bingle. This is also basically exactly what he then clarified in 457 and 462.

You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful. No one has been killed yet, it doesn't develop nor change my understanding of his original posts, and it isn't something that Pav would have different reasoning about whether he's town or scum. Hence, I don't understand how the line of questioning actually helps you sort Pav, it feels like busywork at best and at worst potentially trying to stir up "issues" with Pav that you can then use to push him.

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp? Because I sorta feel like you have been a bit too forgiving to people in the game so far. Not like that's inherently Scummy (unless you're doing it for Town cred), but it's a weird angle. Someone said they weren't seeing the fire from your posts. I'll admit I haven't actually seen that type of thing from you personally (overt aggression), but someone (I think Bingle) said they didn't get why you weren't being as aggressive so I feel like there's something based on that read that IDK of your play.

Are you ever aggressive in games? And if not, why are you not SRing the person who said this?

[Bingle]

Salsa always seems to have a bit of chaotic energy that I find hard to read, but I was pinging after the whole "I want to vote roden but not sure I should" thing, which is scum thinking though I don't know why it was verbalized

Why is it scum thinking - why can't town be unsure? Is there a hidden reason scum would be unsure? Is there fault with her reasoning for not being sure?

Of course town can be unsure. Town *should* be unsure.

What's scum thinking is "I've decided I want to vote this person but I'm not going to" because...? Like imo town just votes there whereas scum is a lot more concerned about how their vote "looks".

You said

Roden

wasn't verge of the elimination but they're at E-3 that time and we have 4 scums.

I wouldn't consider e-3 the verge of elimination, and if scum is willing to give the game away and quick hammer from that far out, I'd say that's worth letting somebody get quick limmed.

Townslip? Eh, either way it’s towny.

Core of my pav read, LQ.

[Bingle]

I really dislike GLs auro takes, btw. It reads like gl is calling auro scummy for being paranoid, which is p much the exact opposite of what someone being paranoid usually indicates.

[LicketyQuickety]

Salsa always seems to have a bit of chaotic energy that I find hard to read, but I was pinging after the whole "I want to vote roden but not sure I should" thing, which is scum thinking though I don't know why it was verbalized

Why is it scum thinking - why can't town be unsure? Is there a hidden reason scum would be unsure? Is there fault with her reasoning for not being sure?

Of course town can be unsure. Town *should* be unsure.

What's scum thinking is "I've decided I want to vote this person but I'm not going to" because...? Like imo town just votes there whereas scum is a lot more concerned about how their vote "looks".

You said

Roden

wasn't verge of the elimination but they're at E-3 that time and we have 4 scums.

I wouldn't consider e-3 the verge of elimination, and if scum is willing to give the game away and quick hammer from that far out, I'd say that's worth letting somebody get quick limmed.

Townslip? Eh, either way it’s towny.

Core of my pav read, LQ.

Which part?

[GuiltyLion]

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

[GuiltyLion]

I really dislike GLs auro takes, btw. It reads like gl is calling auro scummy for being paranoid,

Uhhhh... I don't see how you get that from any of my Auro takes. I didn't like his attempt to gotcha Pav over easily understandable posts. None of what I've had to say has had anything to do with paranoia

[GuiltyLion]

Are you ever aggressive in games? And if not, why are you not SRing the person who said this?

Oh and on this - I can be aggressive, but not always, it depends on how strongly I feel about the read. I don't scumread Bingle for scumreading me because last time we were both town he scumread me for similar reasons and I can understand why he thinks I've been a lil lamisty, I get that a lot

[LicketyQuickety]

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

Are you planning on killing your SRs with kindness or something? You're SRing both Roden and Salsa and seem to be very gentle with both of them.

That's why I asked if you ever are aggressive as Town. Which you didn't answer. And why are you not SRing someone who is giving a bogus meta read on you if you're not aggressive as Town?

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

[GuiltyLion]

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

I don't think I've been especially flowery? Like where do you see me doing that, specifically? I went in hard on Roden, he bailed, and Salsa has had enough attention that I haven't needed to push it myself. I'm satisfied with the gamestate currently, I don't need to do anything at the moment other than poke at peripheral slots like Auro

[LicketyQuickety]

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

I don't think I've been especially flowery? Like where do you see me doing that, specifically? I went in hard on Roden, he bailed, and Salsa has had enough attention that I haven't needed to push it myself. I'm satisfied with the gamestate currently, I don't need to do anything at the moment other than poke at peripheral slots like Auro

These posts right here:

This is over aggro. Sort of feels fake.

being fair to Roden, I basically challenged him in my last post to go at me, so I'm not surprised to see him bite back. What I'd like to actually hear from him though is why he thinks my behavior is more likely to come from me as scum than me as town, because that's what's missing

If I don’t understand something, I'll ask.

sure, but it feels like you're trying to drag Pav into a debate about claims that he didn't make or arguments that aren't important. From my impression of his original 440, all Pav was saying was that if he were to

know

that I am town, he would then think that Bingle's shade on me might indicate Bingle scum. However, as soon as you say something like that it can poison the well for NKA (a non-Bingle scum team might shoot me in an attempt to make Bingle look bad), so he wanted to clarify that he doesn't also think me being NK'd would

further

make him suspect Bingle. This is also basically exactly what he then clarified in 457 and 462.

You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful. No one has been killed yet, it doesn't develop nor change my understanding of his original posts, and it isn't something that Pav would have different reasoning about whether he's town or scum. Hence, I don't understand how the line of questioning actually helps you sort Pav, it feels like busywork at best and at worst potentially trying to stir up "issues" with Pav that you can then use to push him.

In the first, you are giving Roden a pass. In the second, you are basically treating Salsa with kid gloves.

[GuiltyLion]

I disagree with your assessment of both those posts, but I appreciate you referencing them. The first one in particular is definitely not a pass, I'm explicitly challenging him to explain why he thinks my play comes from me as scum

[LicketyQuickety]

I disagree with your assessment of both those posts, but I appreciate you referencing them. The first one in particular is definitely not a pass, I'm explicitly challenging him to explain why he thinks my play comes from me as scum

Why do I feel like you are explaining yourself thoroughly to your SRs but not to me?

[GuiltyLion]

I dunno what there is to explain, and I feel like you're just pushing on me because you're bored of the main suspects or trying to make sure you have a good grip on the gamestate or something. I disagree with you that I've been flowery or tentative with my SRs, but I don't really want to fight with you about it

[GuiltyLion]

My SRs are Roden, Salsa, Auro, and I haven't really explained myself to them at all? I don't scumread Bingle, I try to explain myself to him when I think it might make him reevaluate but overall I don't know where you even see me "explaining myself" to SRs

[Auro]

@GL: This is the redundancy I was referring to. Like why bring up the GL NK?
I'm a little concerned you didn't see this.

He brought it up the second time because Salsa asked him why he brought it up and he was trying to clarify his original post. How is that "redundant" when he was literally asked to explain??

I'm VERY concerned you don't see that

I'm referring to the first time, or post 440 though?

[GuiltyLion]

How is it "redundant" to say "if we limmed GL and he flipped town, I'd suspect Bingle, but if GL is NKed I wouldn't necessarily suspect him"

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - Or rather *"hold that against him as well" instead of "suspect"

[Auro]

Like talking about the likelihood of you flipping, and then bringing up the case where you're NK'd adds nothing to the thread - the only purpose it could have served was some form of cross-team signalling. And note that I'm not referring to his further explanation of it.

It's obvious things wouldn't necessarily be the same if GL was NK'd, no? How often do we see townposts of the form "hmm, if somehow X slot were to be night killed, hmm hmm hmm, then my opinion could change..." (I know this might be an uncharitable twisting of what he was trying to convey, but this is how it comes off to me as possible signalling).

[Auro]

I mean that limming town!GL with Bingles points in mind would be scum indicative on Bingle, but if GL were NK'd I wouldn't assume Bingle was behind it.

Why would you engage in preemptive NKA in the first place though?

Like... This is just introducing so much WIFOM into the thread.

If GL gets shot here, did Bingle do it for towncred? Did scum do it trying to frame Bingle? Did the CPR doc do it trying to save GL from the scum shot that was trying to frame Bingle of either alignment?

Just posting that makes it completely useless.

And Bingle stated the same as well earlier - even if you disagree about whether it's likely signalling, do you not concede that this is a valid viewpoint?
And if it is a valid viewpoint, why I may have been more confident in my "gotcha" than if it were only my misread in isolation (and to further clarify, I was on mobile and I missed an 'if', maybe due to overflow, reading "if we should flip GL" as "we should flip GL")?