Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[morph the cat]

@Guiltylion

What are your overall reads now? Your last reads list I could find was the top of 892.

[Cephrir]

can i just decide to ignore the entire problem and vote nsg

later

[numberQ]

I'm interested to see what Ceph will decide here

@numberQ, you seem kinda whatever/neutral on redtea while kinda suspicious of some imaginality's posts. Are you willing to vote him in a redtea vs imaginality dilemma?

I don't know, I still need to do those ISOs I hoped to do last night. Though from skimming through redtea's today, they do seem to start actually playing after the point I stopped reading. Have not looked at imaginality at all. Expect more thoughts on redtea v imag in the next few hours probably.

I'll vote redtea if it does come down to redtea or me, of course, but currently I would rather see implosion or numberQ limmed and I think there's time for that to happen.

numberQ's iso has a lot of caveats, to-dos and minor questions. He backed off his early suspicion of Cephrir. I'm not seeing anything strikingly towny in his posts.

He can prove himself town by voting implosion with me though - how about it, numberQ?

I don't have a feel for the current gamestate except that there's something between you and redtea. How does implosion factor into that? Why do I need to prove myself town to you, and how does an implo vote do that?

[imaginality]

I'll vote redtea if it does come down to redtea or me, of course, but currently I would rather see implosion or numberQ limmed and I think there's time for that to happen.

numberQ's iso has a lot of caveats, to-dos and minor questions. He backed off his early suspicion of Cephrir. I'm not seeing anything strikingly towny in his posts.

He can prove himself town by voting implosion with me though - how about it, numberQ?

I don't have a feel for the current gamestate except that there's something between you and redtea. How does implosion factor into that? Why do I need to prove myself town to you, and how does an implo vote do that?

If you help get implosion limmed today and he flips scum it would be extremely unlikely you were bussing him, considering how easily you (if scum) can get away with encouraging or acquiescing to mislimming me instead.

I think implosion has a better chance of flipping scum than redtea and I'm wary that people are trying to make this an imaginality vs redtea dilemma when there's still time to coalesce around a better option.

[numberQ]

Starting with redtea because they have the least amount of posts of the three I wanted to pay more attention to. Beware, I quote a couple of long posts unabridged in here.

Spoiler: redtea posts that interested me

you people sl'd fua for a little airheadedness in their opening posts?
might as well tie *me* to the stake right now then

really though what I see from their iso is that they're going for more of a conversationalist playstyle rather than an essayist one.

Already seeing something at least a little substantial, though it’s not much. I'm only pointing it out because I guess I had this perception that they had done literally nothing at all besides meme in the pages I’ve read, but this is

something

.

Though again, it isn’t much at all, mainly just disagreeing with the fua SL others had at the time. Plus a weird and unexplained comment on fua's playstyle.

you people sl'd fua for a little airheadedness in their opening posts?
might as well tie *me* to the stake right now then

really though what I see from their iso is that they're going for more of a conversationalist playstyle rather than an essayist one.

I resent being called an airhead but I can respect where you're coming from.

What exactly is a conversationalist playstyle? I play how I want.

uuhh
idk, the vibe

speaking of vibes, shirou vs fua was Not a vibe

I thiiiiink this has some game content too? It’s honestly hard to tell. They’re responding to a legit question from fua with a complete non-answer. Then they comment on Shirou vs fua from the early game by… I have no clue. All they said was “not a vibe”. Like I’m all for justifying reads with just having vibes or a gut feel, but this is even less than that.

the ideal scenario is to lim a lurky slot whose content has been scummy when they HAVE been here, like redtea

oof ouch
agree with the premise tho

Here they agree with GL over mech discussion, so I guess this is technically contentful. They do discuss with GL then a little, throughout 880-887. But it was incredibly light and resulted in basically nothing.

I'll say that I didn't expect my one (1) game with fua to be helpful but page 16 is telling me everyone would benefit from skimming one of their town games if one is studying-inclined

Some meta analysis on fua, though it’s really just a page number and a vague “skim one of fua’s town games”. They do elaborate somewhat in 1215. I’m terminally uninterested in researching meta so I’m not gonna read the linked games, but they’re there.

do scum still jump in for their mates these days tho?

This seems to be a rhetorical question supporting fua in the fua vs Tejate debate, though it’s so surface level and light that I don’t think it really contributes anything at all. Either that or it was an actual question, in which case it’s even more surface level and I don’t think redtea follows up at all.

Alright whatever I didn't read everything but idt it matters. If it's relevant I'll read it in iso later.
Sorry to interrupt whatever convo seems to be happening. I decided to post this before reading updates.

I'm not going to case each read of mine, which I know isn't really fair since I haven't been around much to do so in real time, but TOO BAD. You can ask specific questions if you want. I have a few thoughts that are getting in the way of my sorting people. It's almost all in response to numberQ but tbh they're mostly open-ended responses, which works great considering the v/la

Here:
[used to be a spoiler]
numberQ #270
#178 +town and #166 -town?
I get it, but to me this looks like town checking if Amazonian is treading water or if there's an actual thought process behind the og question, without thinking through how Amazonian giving away her intentions (if any) ruins the point.
(I'd know because I've been there)

numberQ #273
does Cephrir tend to be reactionary? The smarter play here imo would've been to see if Tejate, down the line, actually does anything irt such little remarks or if they only ever seem to contribute to a smokescreen.
On the one hand, I'm only beginning to get the hang of this "be a little generous and make room for players' natural personality" thing myself, on the other, my join date isn't in the oughts.

numberQ #492
I don't see what ISN'T potentially scummy about making ridiculous accusations and then saying they're not actually that serious later on, which iirc is what happened.

implosion #298
this post expects fua to be a different (or maybe more advanced?) player than they are. What you hoped to get out of poking at this is the actual question
[/used to be a spoiler]


also love how page 18 can be summed up as "guilty lion forgets that Mafia is almost entirely a game of hypotheticals where you convince others to believe in yours" I can't help bringing that up


And here's where i'm at right now.

[lock-town]
fua, obviously.

[can stay]
-

[can maybe/probably stay]

nsg

,

ydrasse

,

shirou

[the flip would help]
Cephrir, Tejate

[can go]
GuiltyLion, imaginality, implosion

[??????]
numberQ, Amazonian,

morph

Those in blue/bold are those I expect might change after reading the updates

also I thought Shirou was also gonna be lock-town for me when reading much of the beginning of the game but I'm actually surprised I don't feel comfortable doing that anymore.

Huh. Turns out their very next post after I stopped catching up, they actually start to effort (which to be fair is like 7 pages after I stopped).

However, even if it’s a little better, 1209 is still a very light touch. Compare GL’s analysis of me versus redtea’s here. tea is just kind of pointing out things, and only once do they imply any of those things is scummy. Ultimately they sort me into the ??? category, but somehow they want implosion to go despite only having one scummy thing to say about him. (I think they’re saying 298 is scummy? Not a lot of clear language in redtea’s posts so far.)

Overall, this post feels very haphazard.

might've missed it bc i was skimming but kinda bummed no one responded to my questions in #1209. Like I didn't ask them just to ask, I asked because if someone had something to say it would be helpful to me.

a little old now but

@morph is this about me not responding to your question about my current fua read you posited *checks watch* 8 hours ago

You posted again a few hours after I asked the question without answering it. That's is of more concern to me than how many hours since I asked.

I just assumed you would've read #982 and held off on a follow-up accordingly, even if that @ wasn't to you

They draw attention back to their 1209 mini-wall. Though I’m not sure what questions they asked which they now are saying they want answered. There are exactly 3 question marks I counted, and only one of them seems more than rhetorical. Actually that one is directed at me lol. If I forget to answer it later, yell at me.

ooooh fun fun fun

i suppose i would be interested in why he chose redtea specifically.

right so I finally have the time/energy to specifically go into what I didn't like in redtea's ISO

let me break it down:

330 - it seems a little odd to me to open by saying that 328 made you laugh while also claiming to have not read the game fully yet. There'd be missing context for what I was pushing fua for, no reads on fua/myself to interpret our interaction - like is that post still as funny if fua is scum trying to discredit me? just seemed to me like an odd entry in the game and something that's more likely to come from an informed perspective re:fua and I's alignments, rather than town who hasn't read up

it's funny because the wording was hilarious, especially given I remember fua being a bit more uptight in our previous game. Did this really warrant digging in to?

331 is a bad post. redtea doesn't give any indication of whether they are townreading fua, all they do is strawman the reason for suspecting fua and push against that strawman, while joking about themselves. Vibes exactly to me like scum who want to make a buddy in fua and also get a joking foothold into the game. The "conversationalist" remark feels like fake analysis, again there's no evidence of a thought process regarding whether town or scum is more likely to be "conversationalist", no evidence of trying to reason about fua's alignment.

332 is also inconsistent with 331 - if redtea only read between posts 248 and 330, and didn't read the beginning of the game, how are they making comments about fua's entry or their ISO? Did redtea read fua in ISO but not the game? why?

I did.
Because I was trying to keep ontop of the game while simultaneously catching up, and wanted to comment that.

Furthermore, I think my thoughts WERE useful- maybe only to me, but they are. I'm making an extra effort this game to understand the personalities and styles of the players to reduce my biases. That way I can "cut away the fat" so to speak. Of course those things are influenced by alignment, but I'm trying to find the sweet spot of what is probably just how they are regardless of alignment. Or at least regardless of alignment as far as I know, because I'm barely keeping up with this game god forbid I get into meta reading.

879-882 reminds me of stuff I do as scum to try to make it seem like I don't have an agenda, giving one opinion then immediately reversing it. it was also just an immediate hasty misrepresentation of my position, redtea acted like I was demanding a lim immediately ("we have 12 days left") when I wasn't.

It's cause I literally misread what was happening like 3 times or something? Thought that was obvious, as those posts are LITERALLY minute to minute.

as for a general pattern of play remark, a lot of redtea's content is in response to stuff happening in the thread when they are here, which indicates that they're at least reading along at some points in the game, but redtea doesn't give any indication whatsoever of their reads or how they see the game until 1209. I don't see proactive effort to engage with people or an obvious direction redtea wants to go for lim or pressure. Very much gives me scum coasting and not giving information vibes

I can't deny this. It's been a while since I played with a significant amount of wall-posters; with that kind of density i'm kind of in a weird loop of starting replies/not finalizing them because im not done reading/running out of time, trying to figure out something out of all that that I don't feel awkward putting out there, and then otherwise trying to make up for it by following along live-ish when I can. I realize I'm kind of a hot mess rn. Im still figuring it out.

And then 1209 is a janky post in that the questions/thoughts section doesn't correlate to the reads at all, as far as I can tell. It's also weird to have a "can go" category (which presumably means scumreads), but then a "flip would help" category for Tejate/Cephrir - what's the difference between "can go" and "flip would help", like is "flip would help" null? Why is that different than the "???" tier? I don't think that part of their post is inherently scum indicative but it sure doesn't show me a solvey/uninformed mindset, it's missing indicators of a town mindset that show me how the reads relate to each other or how they were arrived at.

Honestly I probably should've put the questions and reads in separate posts. The reads were after a session of power-reading.
Though I did say, quote, "I'm not going to case each read of mine, which I know isn't really fair since I haven't been around much to do so in real time, but TOO BAD. You can ask specific questions if you want."

Besides, I do think there is some correlation.
I question numberQ's #270 because fua is a town read, I'm showing how I see the town there, and thus opening up the question of, "now that you see how I view it, does that change how you view it?"

numberQ #273- this goes back to my "i'm trying to cut out the fat" thing, which I just phrased in a different way there. Maybe instead of "smarter play" i should've said "smarter town play". That would've made it clearer that I was shading Cephrir (who is in my bottom two tiers), but also giving a chance for someone more informed on his playstyle to change my mind.

implosion is also in my one of my last two tiers, and what I did was ask him about an especially weaksauce post.


And lastly- I can categorize my tiers how I want. Thank you.

This is more effort posting, so good in the sense that it’s giving me more to sort them. I like this post all the way up to the last quote they respond to. 1209 was already kind of weird (or janky as GL put it), and idk what to make of this justification for it here. I still don’t feel I have a good insight into the perspective behind 1209.

reminds me that an earlier run of this game, people suggested not outing themselves even after expending their abilities because that also narrows down the pr pool for scum. idk if that's been said yet
also idk if that worked out for them but it made sense to me

Just some mech strategizing, but it stood out to me because even for mech stuff it’s pretty much nothing. Talking about mechanics is one of the easiest ways for scum to look like they’re contributing, but redtea isn’t even doing that much. They’re just bringing up something that a previous game did, but only to throw it into the conversation, there’s no real

point

to them saying it. No opinion, no suggestion, nothing.

Overall thoughts: redtea started out very fluffy, which gave me town vibes of not caring. This can be easy to fake as scum however, so I think you sort that by looking at how they continue to play throughout the game. The rest of redtea’s ISO sees them caring a little more than their first 20 or so posts - the fluff gets cut down, but it’s replaced with very minor reads and light analysis. I struggle to see the perspective behind many of their posts, especially the ones where they’re trying.

But I keep coming back to the thought I had originally, which was - is scum this blatantly superficial? There were moments where I felt scum!redtea could have faked more thoughts, like with the mech analysis thing at the end of the spoiler. If this is scum then they’re either really struggling to fake reads in a game that has plenty of bait to do so, or they’re trying really really hard to look like town that doesn’t care.

(I’m going to hold off any explicit reads until I finish at least the imaginality ISO and probably some snooping in Shirou’s as well, since some recent posts indicate that may be important to sorting redtea.)

[numberQ]

I'll vote redtea if it does come down to redtea or me, of course, but currently I would rather see implosion or numberQ limmed and I think there's time for that to happen.

numberQ's iso has a lot of caveats, to-dos and minor questions. He backed off his early suspicion of Cephrir. I'm not seeing anything strikingly towny in his posts.

He can prove himself town by voting implosion with me though - how about it, numberQ?

I don't have a feel for the current gamestate except that there's something between you and redtea. How does implosion factor into that? Why do I need to prove myself town to you, and how does an implo vote do that?

If you help get implosion limmed today and he flips scum it would be extremely unlikely you were bussing him, considering how easily you (if scum) can get away with encouraging or acquiescing to mislimming me instead.

I think implosion has a better chance of flipping scum than redtea and I'm wary that people are trying to make this an imaginality vs redtea dilemma when there's still time to coalesce around a better option.

Hmm. From any perspective but yours the exact same thing can be said about you. If I help get you limmed and you flip scum, then it's unlikely I'm bussing there either. This argument is only helpful to anyone who has you as locktown I think, which is not me.

[imaginality]

I'll vote redtea if it does come down to redtea or me, of course, but currently I would rather see implosion or numberQ limmed and I think there's time for that to happen.

numberQ's iso has a lot of caveats, to-dos and minor questions. He backed off his early suspicion of Cephrir. I'm not seeing anything strikingly towny in his posts.

He can prove himself town by voting implosion with me though - how about it, numberQ?

I don't have a feel for the current gamestate except that there's something between you and redtea. How does implosion factor into that? Why do I need to prove myself town to you, and how does an implo vote do that?

If you help get implosion limmed today and he flips scum it would be extremely unlikely you were bussing him, considering how easily you (if scum) can get away with encouraging or acquiescing to mislimming me instead.

I think implosion has a better chance of flipping scum than redtea and I'm wary that people are trying to make this an imaginality vs redtea dilemma when there's still time to coalesce around a better option.

Hmm. From any perspective but yours the exact same thing can be said about you. If I help get you limmed and you flip scum, then it's unlikely I'm bussing there either. This argument is only helpful to anyone who has you as locktown I think, which is not me.

I disagree: because I'm more likely to get limmed there's more incentive for scum to bus me (if I were scum), rather than bus a better placed buddy. So the two lims aren't equivalent.

If you're town, and have suspicions of both me and implosion, supporting limming me is low reward for you, limming implosion is higher reward (in terms of your town cred). Although obviously if you think I'm much scummier than implosion then limming me makes more sense.

[numberQ]

This plea isn't improving my opinion of you

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

[GuiltyLion]

@Morph

I think Shirou/implosion/AL/Ydrasse/fua is a fundamentally sound town core at the moment, I really like a lot of Shirou's posts re:imaginality and Tejate, and I think scum is going to have a hard time breaking into that townbloc even if there's capable scum in like Ceph or NSG who hasn't made any mistakes yet. and I don't even think that's likely I townread both of them still as well.

I townread all these names here, Ceph/NSG are lighter townreads, I still SR redtea, I'm waffley on Tejate/numberQ I think there could be a scum there. Really not sure how to read you, at times posts have felt town but I agree with the general thread vibe that you aren't yet a

confident

townread, probably same tier as Ceph/NSG where I definitely don't want to lim/wagon today but I wouldn't bet the game on y'all being town.

[imaginality]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

I'm more sure he's scum than I am

[imaginality]

This plea isn't improving my opinion of you

It isn't intended to.
Like I say, if you think I'm clearly scummier than implosion then say so and vote me. My point was if you see us similarly (which was the impression I got from one of your earlier posts) then it makes more sense to lim implosion.

If nothing else, if implosion does turn out to be town I'd almost certainly be tomorrow's lim whereas I have less confidence that implosion would be tomorrow's lim when I flip town.

[fua]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

I'm more sure he's scum than I am

What even? If you're town that applies to everyone.

[fua]

Kind of feels like Imaginality has accepted he's dead in the water and is now pushing to delay his death and give his team an extra kill.

[morph the cat]

@Morph

I think Shirou/implosion/AL/Ydrasse/fua is a fundamentally sound town core at the moment, I really like a lot of Shirou's posts re:imaginality and Tejate, and I think scum is going to have a hard time breaking into that townbloc even if there's capable scum in like Ceph or NSG who hasn't made any mistakes yet. and I don't even think that's likely I townread both of them still as well.

I townread all these names here, Ceph/NSG are lighter townreads, I still SR redtea, I'm waffley on Tejate/numberQ I think there could be a scum there. Really not sure how to read you, at times posts have felt town but I agree with the general thread vibe that you aren't yet a

confident

townread, probably same tier as Ceph/NSG where I definitely don't want to lim/wagon today but I wouldn't bet the game on y'all being town.

I asked this because of your post about there being a deep scum in your townreads if either of redtea or imaginality are town. That sounded like you have a binary list that contained at most one null.

And I interpreted the read list I linked to, as approximately that binary, so wanted to confirm you're still in a fairly binary mode.

[Tejate Raichu]

I think I did greatly overreact to imaginality's comment on me and it probably heavily tinted my view of the slot, but I'm not exactly in love with their recent posts.

Surprisingly, I actually quite like nQ's catchup for the most part. I don't feel particularly offput by anything said this time around. Hmm.

[imaginality]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

I'm more sure he's scum than I am

What even? If you're town that applies to everyone.

Yes of course.

The point is the more it's me on the chopping block the less I need to be sure of my case on someone else to push for them hard. Because the equation in my head is less "should I push this person vs investigating these others" and more "if I don't get momentum going on someone else I'm gonna be limmed".

Or to put it another way, I am only somewhat confident that implosion is more likely scum than GuiltyLion/Cephrir/etc.
But I am greatly confident he's more likely scum than I am.

Idk. This makes sense in my head.

[Amazonian Legends]

can i just decide to ignore the entire problem and vote nsg

later

Not gonna lie this thought crossed my mind as well.

This weekend got away from me and I’m headed to bed soon, so I won’t be doing much tonight.

I don’t particularly like the way that imaginality is bargaining with nq. I don’t mind that he’s bargaining, but the way he’s bargaining with nq about the towncred he’ll get if he votes implosion over him feels wrong in its presentation. I read backwards so at first I thought he was talking to an no that he was town reading with the promise of towncred which felt wrong but then it made a little more sense to see him scumreading nq as well, but the focus still feels weird. Eh I just reread 1561 and he is somewhat doing what I was going to say I thought he should be doing, so I don’t know, I’ll come back to this tomorrow.

[fua]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

I'm more sure he's scum than I am

What even? If you're town that applies to everyone.

Yes of course.

The point is the more it's me on the chopping block the less I need to be sure of my case on someone else to push for them hard. Because the equation in my head is less "should I push this person vs investigating these others" and more "if I don't get momentum going on someone else I'm gonna be limmed".

Or to put it another way, I am only somewhat confident that implosion is more likely scum than GuiltyLion/Cephrir/etc.
But I am greatly confident he's more likely scum than I am.

Idk. This makes sense in my head.

What???

If it's a matter of self preservation then why not just vote for the guy with three right now instead of sticking on a random vanity vote?

[Shirou]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

[imaginality]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

[GuiltyLion]

Or to put it another way, I am only somewhat confident that implosion is more likely scum than GuiltyLion/Cephrir/etc.

when did I become a scumread? You had me as top town in 1116

also, what

exactly

is your read on redtea? You've been very null to scum on them whenever you've talked about them or given a read on them, but you seem Very Confident implosion is more likely to flip red than they are, why do you think redtea is more likely to be town? In 1173 you suggested redtea might be scum because your wagon sprang up much quicker than theirs. Yet you aren't demonstrating any real interest in voting redtea, and saying things like this:

I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

as if people are trying to tie your alignments together instead of just independently scumreading/wagoning redtea? For me personally at least I haven't been trying to push for a "redtea vs imaginality" situation, I was pushing redtea cause I thought they were scummy and wanted to see whether people had reasons to vote or not to vote there, had nothing to do with your wagon. But I do find it weird that you don't claim to townread redtea, yet despite being the leading wagon you're not voting a slot that several other players want limmed in favor of your vanity scumread - it doesn't feel very genuine to me, feels like you're resistant to voting redtea for reasons you aren't willing to share

If I'm wrong and you have reasons to not want to lim redtea, correct me by all means, I just don't see any evidence of it in your ISO. And I know I said this earlier but I also just don't buy your confidence in implosion, this feels very similar to many times I've seen him as town and I don't think the case/reasoning against him that you laid out in 1105 is all that scum-indicative. like how would you really boil down the case against him here when you get to the nuts and bolts of it? he downplayed his ability to play mafia and seems too worried about what morph thinks of him? I don't find it hard to imagine that coming from town

[implosion]

I am running low on motivation for the game rn. I think even if I do put stock in that one thing from imag being townish he's still on net scummy. The argument he's making right now is mostly just weird for reasons people like fua have outlined already. There's a lot of time in the day left but I don't think using it for the sake of using it is correct when the game is seemingly running out of steam (3 days ago was 6 pages back, another 3 days ago takes us back about another 20 pages, though part of that is probably the weekend but etc).

If anyone has anything in particular they want me to respond to I'm happy to but I mostly feel blah for partially in-game (wanting a flip) and partially out-of-game reasons.

[morph the cat]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more

rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

what others? and how are they doing so.

I feel like this is how things have worked out so far, but it's not at all clear to me that several players are efforting to make the game come down to you vs redtea.

[imaginality]

Or to put it another way, I am only somewhat confident that implosion is more likely scum than GuiltyLion/Cephrir/etc.

when did I become a scumread? You had me as top town in 1116

I didn't call you a scumread. I picked a couple of names at random since my point was just to illustrate that:
A-C > A-B
A = chance implosion is scum
B = chance any other player are scum
C = chance I'm scum (0% from my pov)

I do have a general sense that I've been less impressed by your posts recently compared with earlier, I wouldn't have you top tier town any more, but as I haven't been particularly focused on you, I think my impression is mainly based on my sense you're happy settling on me and doing less pushing of others.

also, what

exactly

is your read on redtea? You've been very null to scum on them whenever you've talked about them or given a read on them, but you seem Very Confident implosion is more likely to flip red than they are, why do you think redtea is more likely to be town? In 1173 you suggested redtea might be scum because your wagon sprang up much quicker than theirs.

I gave a different take on that in #1179:

Look at the speed of this wagon vs redtea though. I think the difference is potentially informative.

Informative of what - are you implying redtea is scum vs you being town with this, or something else?

That was my first thought. On reflection it could also be because we've had that discussion about the need for wagons.
I also noticed both Ydrasse and Cephrir got onto both wagons early. So if redtea is scum either my read on them is wrong or they were bussing (or maybe just distancing since it didn't seem super likely that the redtea wagon would lead to a quick lim).

Yet you aren't demonstrating any real interest in voting redtea, and saying things like this:

I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

as if people are trying to tie your alignments together instead of just independently scumreading/wagoning redtea?

It's not about tying our alignments together, it's the sense that the day is funnelling down into "do we lim imaginality or redtea" rather than continuing to look wider.

That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

For me personally at least I haven't been trying to push for a "redtea vs imaginality" situation, I was pushing redtea cause I thought they were scummy and wanted to see whether people had reasons to vote or not to vote there, had nothing to do with your wagon.
But I do find it weird that you don't claim to townread redtea, yet despite being the leading wagon you're not voting a slot that several other players want limmed in favor of your vanity scumread - it doesn't feel very genuine to me, feels like you're resistant to voting redtea for reasons you aren't willing to share

Why is it a 'vanity scumread'? Isn't that in itself proof you see this as a me vs redtea showdown, despite your earlier demurral?

If I'm wrong and you have reasons to not want to lim redtea, correct me by all means, I just don't see any evidence of it in your ISO.

#1179 was one (players I saw as scummy on their wagon as well as mine). I've given another above. And a couple of their posts since my last readslist have come across as genuine, for example post 1323 doesn't seem likely to come from scum (since it's arguing against a point people were making against me) and post 1512 just felt like it didn't have hidden agenda behind it.

And I know I said this earlier but I also just don't buy your confidence in implosion, this feels very similar to many times I've seen him as town and I don't think the case/reasoning against him that you laid out in 1105 is all that scum-indicative. like how would you really boil down the case against him here when you get to the nuts and bolts of it? he downplayed his ability to play mafia and seems too worried about what morph thinks of him? I don't find it hard to imagine that coming from town

I'll come back to this but off the top of my head:

-feeling like there's hidden agenda to his posts
-feeling like he's less clear than he was in his last game as town, and more selfconscious about how he's being read
-him being on both redtea and me
-feeling like he's not really trying to sort me