Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[imaginality]

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more

rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

what others? and how are they doing so.

I feel like this is how things have worked out so far, but it's not at all clear to me that several players are efforting to make the game come down to you vs redtea.

So I've just reread from page 50 or so and got the quotes.

Though, to some extent, everyone has implicitly let this move towards me vs redtea, because there's been no votes that whole time except a couple on redtea and GL's one on me. So that has let the game drift on closer towards deadline, which implicitly narrows it to a me vs redtea dilemma if we remain the main two wagons.

In terms of explicitly pushing redtea v me, here are the posts I found. The majority come from Shirou and GuiltyLion:

imaginality (4): fua, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou
redtea (3): GuiltyLion, Amazonian Legends, Cephir

Those are the current votes.

@redtea, NSG, NumberQ

hi I need your votes on the Imaginality's wagon. When you guys come around could you go into your read on Imaginality? I want to convince you three that he's likely scum if you already don't think so.

If you already do think so, please do vote him. We're nearing 60 pages by now and it's not bad even if it ends up ending the day.

Especially you redtea, it's either your or him at this point I believe.

In post 1452 AL said they want to lim me redtea or numberQ, while numberQ was VLA.

My opinion on redtea right now is annoyingly similar to Shirou's: they have the aesthetics in my mind of a slot that could easily be either alignment but is prone to being misread as scum if town.

I feel like imaginality is a better shot for actual scum

...

GuiltyLion continues the focus on redtea v me in post 1486.

A similar exchange in 1492-1516.

I don't think my goal here needs to be convincing you to give up on redtea for the rest of the game at all, I think I would be quite satisfied in simply persuading you that Imaginality may be the better D1 elimination.

yeh, this is fine, I see your point and I'm fine with opting for imaginality instead

once I get an updated VC I'll probably vote there

GL focusing numberQ purely on redtea v me:

If there's anything anyone feels I should pay particular attention to, let me know.

I most of all want your takes on redtea, imaginality, and everything Shirou is saying in favor of imaginality over redtea

@redtea you don't seem to like Imaginality slot that much so can you vote for him before I lose my patience and begin pushing your wagon myself? It's either you or him.

Please and thank you.

I'm interested to see what Ceph will decide here

@numberQ, you seem kinda whatever/neutral on redtea while kinda suspicious of some imaginality's posts. Are you willing to vote him in a redtea vs imaginality dilemma?

[Cephrir]

is that pushing a narrative or is it just reality

[imaginality]

Cephrir, removing redtea and myself from the list, who are your top one or two scumreads right now?

@others: same question

[Cephrir]

nsg

but im essentially 10 pages behind

[Ydrasse]

i’m still super sick and haven’t followed has anything important happened

[numberQ]

I think that a day's discussion gradually moving towards two competing wagons is natural and happens quite often. imaginality, are you seeing a particular agenda behind Shirou and GL pushing this "imaginality vs redtea" narrative? It just feels weird to attack the entire construct itself and use that as a main point in wanting people to vote implosion (not the only point, but it seems to be factoring heavily into your case)

i’m still super sick and haven’t followed has anything important happened

Looks like the day's lim is between redtea and imaginality, this makes imaginality paranoid. Beyond that I'm still catching up myself.

[fua]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

So wait. Your main concern is pushing someone so that you don’t get limmed because you know you’re townie, but suddenly you can afford to choose who you push because there’s still time until the deadline? Does not compute.

[fua]

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

[fua]

I think doubling down on a bad take is a scum-indicative move, honestly.

[GuiltyLion]

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

Wait lmao good catch, "if they're scum as well"

[GuiltyLion]

Oh wait, unless he's referring to implosion there? not sure that's a slip actually

[GuiltyLion]

Nah wait no context around implosion so I think you're right, probably a slip up

I'm off to wake my brain up with caffeine before posting again

[imaginality]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

So wait. Your main concern is pushing someone so that you don’t get limmed because you know you’re townie, but suddenly you can afford to choose who you push because there’s still time until the deadline? Does not compute.

I don't understand what point you think you're making but I thought my point was clear. I scumread implosion more than I do redtea and felt there's still time for me to push for my higher scumread.

If I saw them equally scunmy then I'd vote redtea already.
If I somehow knew redtea was inno (eg N0 cop inno result) I'd keep pushing for implosion over redtea all the way to deadline.

Reality is somewhere between the two so if no one wants to pursue implosion then in the next day or two I'll end up compromising with a vote on redtea.

[imaginality]

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

Wait lmao good catch, "if they're scum as well"

This is in the context of a post talking about people who are pushing for/okay with me v redtea. I'm saying if redtea is scum as well as the people narrowing it down/letting it drift to a 1v1, I think they might more likely have been keen to keep other names open as possible D1 lims, unless they're confident they can get me limmed over redtea.

[Cephrir]

ok let's try this again!

i'm coming into this feeling like voting imaginality after some distance from the thread. my memory is full of holes but when i think about reasons to vote for imaginality im like "the scummy stuff he posted" and when i think about reasons to vote for redtea i'm like,,,, morph said so???? maybe i need to reread their posts on the subject or the pages i'm rereading will move me but i don't really get it at the moment.

You're trying to seem like you're "reconsidering" your read on me but all your points to me just sound like nitpick.

"He used the pronoun we". Like, if you've a problem with that you would have a problem with most of my posts because I always write that way regardless of alignment to avoid people going "oh it's a perspective slip!" or something dumb like that. There's multiple posts of mine that I do talk as if I'm part of the collective town or so.

and after all that rereading, research and all...you vote redtea. The consensus lurky scum read.

Let me ask you, did you skim the game Ydrasse's linked? You've now mentioned rereading "dedede" and other games for Ceph/Implosion dozens of times by now, but doesn't feel like you're trying to sort your top suspect as much?

Also Tejate you're gaining scum points for your last posts trying to reconsider Imaginality just because...I'm not even sure why. Because Amazon told you that saying "you're funny so I don't want to elim you" is a joke? Wasn't that kinda clear? I don't buy you reconsidering because of that, I feel you're reconsidering simply because the momentum for Imaginality seems to be diminishing, so you're either looking for an out to vote someone other than your potential buddy, or you're simply trying to follow consensus again. It's scummy either way to me.

i know there was a Great Warning about shirou but it's so hard not to want to follow good posts. this is mostly a note to myself to actually care about the response to this.

Also Ceph, why are you sheeping Morph like that when you don't town read them?

Do you really think Imaginality accepting all the votes on him and being like "my elimination is okay as long as we get the most information out of it" is less scummy than...redtea's ISO lacking much content?

Let me ask you

How many times have you seen a lurky slot that doesn't have much content in their ISO being just limbait and flipping town?

sometimes. i have bought into the school of thought that lurkers with meh content are actually just scum a shocking percentage of the time in the current meta. it's disappointing, but true. naturally, it's not going to happen every time.

VS

How many times have you seen a townie instantly go into defeatist mode and say stuff like "My miselimination is okay as long as we can get the most info out of it?".

yeah... rarely.

I do not understand your switch there at all. It feels like you're just trying to play around Morph rather than actually critically thinking who has the highest chances of flipping scum. You're back to null and maybe in fact even null scum depending on how you reply the above.

i am having a struggle between my belief in their scumhunting abilities and listening to myself. i sometimes like to look to others because i've observed that i'm not particularly good at finding scum. and also, i would feel bad about miseliming morph... i don't know what catching them would even look like... maybe it looks like this and they're playing my own emotion-laden game against me? but i'm weak >:

[Cephrir]

i might owe myself a little generosity & need to get over the idea that a loss is worse if it was ~my fault~

[Cephrir]

if an LSG player was thinking these thoughts at me, i would tell them to get out there, make mistakes and get messy because that's how learning happens.

[numberQ]

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

Wait lmao good catch, "if they're scum as well"

This is in the context of a post talking about people who are pushing for/okay with me v redtea. I'm saying if redtea is scum as well as the people narrowing it down/letting it drift to a 1v1, I think they might more likely have been keen to keep other names open as possible D1 lims, unless they're confident they can get me limmed over redtea.

If the people pushing for you v redtea are scum, then that's most of the scumteam already since I think you pointed out Shirou and GL as being part of that group. And if you think implosion is also scum then that's the whole team. Maybe I'm misreading the numbers you're putting out but if I'm not, then redtea should be townbinned by POE alone. But redtea is instead +town because of a bussing argument?

[Cephrir]

Red tea - this one is an absolute toss up. I don’t have a town read here, but neither do I have a scum read. I might have some thoughts about guilty lions push here when I get back from the rink and reread a few things, but I would not be surprised if redtea flipped town or scum. Penguin has reasons to scum read them, and I’m not opposed. Though I did not like the spoilered portion of the “wall”.

I guess this is just a you read? Otherwise why is your vote here.

[numberQ]

I'm seeing a {redtea, imag, ?} scumteam with imag trying very hard to defend himself and his buddy right now. idk if there's something in my catchup that invalidates this theory, which is based almost entirely off imaginality in the past few pages.

[numberQ]

[snip]

i'm coming into this feeling like voting imaginality after some distance from the thread. my memory is full of holes but when i think about reasons to vote for imaginality im like "the scummy stuff he posted" and when i think about reasons to vote for redtea i'm like,,,, morph said so???? maybe i need to reread their posts on the subject or the pages i'm rereading will move me but i don't really get it at the moment.

[snip]

Also Ceph, why are you sheeping Morph like that when you don't town read them?

Do you really think Imaginality accepting all the votes on him and being like "my elimination is okay as long as we get the most information out of it" is less scummy than...redtea's ISO lacking much content?

Let me ask you

How many times have you seen a lurky slot that doesn't have much content in their ISO being just limbait and flipping town?

sometimes. i have bought into the school of thought that lurkers with meh content are actually just scum a shocking percentage of the time in the current meta. it's disappointing, but true. naturally, it's not going to happen every time.

[snip]

The two unsnipped portions are a contradiction no? You see no reason for scumreading redtea but then later you say lurkers with meh content are usually just scum. Unless you think redtea has more than meh content.

[numberQ]

I guess you do say it's not going to happen every time. But surely a "shocking percentage of the time" is more of a reason to vote rt than just sheeping morph.

[Cephrir]

Partially this is fair criticism and I'd chalk it down to me just playing this game in a way that isn't particularly focused, in general.

But also partially... this is incredibly uncharitable.

???????
I dont know that I liked any of this post.

with fresher eyes, i no longer agree with my own post on this subject. i just think this phrasing is goofy and that's not scummy.

[Cephrir]

But also partially... this is incredibly uncharitable. My empty vote on you was the start of an attempt to sort. 462 is to sort you. 520 is to try to get a baseline of how to think about your play. 530 is trying to interact with you and you (temporarily) refusing. 632 is me floating something of yours I thought was scummy to see what others think. This is all literally in the first 1/3 of those 54 mentions.

"Not one of them is geared toward sorting you" is, tbh, insulting in its hyperbolicity.

I don't see anything where I feel like you've tried to figure out my mindset or ask me ~questions~ about my stances. Maybe we go about sorting so differently?

my perception is that you're scumreading or at least heavily distrusting implosion; not that one can't olive branch a scumread, but surprised by the conciliation.

[morph the cat]

@Imaginality, I'm confused by these two posts.

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more

rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

what others? and how are they doing so.

I feel like this is how things have worked out so far, but it's not at all clear to me that several players are efforting to make the game come down to you vs redtea.

So I've just reread from page 50 or so and got the quotes.

Though, to some extent, everyone has implicitly let this move towards me vs redtea, because there's been no votes that whole time except a couple on redtea and GL's one on me. So that has let the game drift on closer towards deadline, which implicitly narrows it to a me vs redtea dilemma if we remain the main two wagons.

In terms of explicitly pushing redtea v me, here are the posts I found. The majority come from Shirou and GuiltyLion:

imaginality (4): fua, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou
redtea (3): GuiltyLion, Amazonian Legends, Cephir

Those are the current votes.

@redtea, NSG, NumberQ

hi I need your votes on the Imaginality's wagon. When you guys come around could you go into your read on Imaginality? I want to convince you three that he's likely scum if you already don't think so.

If you already do think so, please do vote him. We're nearing 60 pages by now and it's not bad even if it ends up ending the day.

Especially you redtea, it's either your or him at this point I believe.

In post 1452 AL said they want to lim me redtea or numberQ, while numberQ was VLA.

My opinion on redtea right now is annoyingly similar to Shirou's: they have the aesthetics in my mind of a slot that could easily be either alignment but is prone to being misread as scum if town.

I feel like imaginality is a better shot for actual scum

...

GuiltyLion continues the focus on redtea v me in post 1486.

A similar exchange in 1492-1516.

I don't think my goal here needs to be convincing you to give up on redtea for the rest of the game at all, I think I would be quite satisfied in simply persuading you that Imaginality may be the better D1 elimination.

yeh, this is fine, I see your point and I'm fine with opting for imaginality instead

once I get an updated VC I'll probably vote there

GL focusing numberQ purely on redtea v me:

If there's anything anyone feels I should pay particular attention to, let me know.

I most of all want your takes on redtea, imaginality, and everything Shirou is saying in favor of imaginality over redtea

@redtea you don't seem to like Imaginality slot that much so can you vote for him before I lose my patience and begin pushing your wagon myself? It's either you or him.

Please and thank you.

I'm interested to see what Ceph will decide here

@numberQ, you seem kinda whatever/neutral on redtea while kinda suspicious of some imaginality's posts. Are you willing to vote him in a redtea vs imaginality dilemma?

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

Wait lmao good catch, "if they're scum as well"

This is in the context of a post talking about people who are pushing for/okay with me v redtea. I'm saying if redtea is scum as well as the people narrowing it down/letting it drift to a 1v1, I think they might more likely have been keen to keep other names open as possible D1 lims, unless they're confident they can get me limmed over redtea.

Initially I thought you were saying that you suspect scum in the players who are pushing a you/red tea elim.

The second post sounds like you expect scum to want to widen the pool further?