Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]


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Post Post #2100 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:15 pm

Post by implosion »

In post 2072, morph the cat wrote:Your approach of taking GLs posts in the worst possible light was offputting to read. I'm curious how you go about reeling that back in and trying to look more objectively. You've said you are doing that (or something like that -- maybe my interpretation isn't great) or are going to do that, but if it's happening, it wasn't evident to me in your posts this afternoon.

I feel like GL is taking a wider view of the game than you are, and I tend to townread a wider view in isolation, though town tunneling is a thing and keeping the elim-pool wide has value to scum.
I think in terms of my attempting-to-be-unbiased feelings on GL right now, they're something like this.

I don't think I've seen him do anything that he couldn't or wouldn't be likely to do as scum; I don't like the way he's been broadly approaching the game. This is the point I made a while ago that I think got lost in the weird ceph point thing but the way he talks about redtea and talked about imaginality still bugs me a bit in that it feels like he had been taking a sort of lazy/unparanoid tact. I am curious what you mean by his view of the game being wider; right now I have strictly listed only 4 slots that I don't townread to some extent but I've also said my confidence in my reads in general isn't great (I wouldn't be surprised at all if there's 1 scum in my townlean tier, probably wouldn't be that surprised if there were 2 even). But also that list is changing actively (eg I agree with the sentiment that meg's posting as of late is hard to pin a scum motivation to). I've been like "tunneling" on you since d1 in that I haven't seen anything from you that I think is town indicative really yet, but I haven't been like, pushing you.

This has gotten very train of thought but going back to GL I have like, a lot of little worries combined with this weird gamestate read where the game makes more sense as a whole with him as scum. The worries are a combination of things from the biased case (which if I'm unbiasing them are something like "things that seem perfectly sensible as a line of play from GL-scum" rather than "things that are clearly indicative of GL-scum" or whatever), some skepticism of his immediate strong reaction against me, skepticism about his view of the game seeming to be sort of "happy with the status quo" in a way on d1 around redtea/imaginality, the way he's been treating the redtea slot in general having very little nuance seemingly, maybe some more things.
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Post Post #2101 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:22 pm

Post by numberQ »

In post 2028, Tejate Raichu wrote:I was going to make this part of the big post, but I'll just leave this here so I've at least posted something beyond "I am making a post." So here you go, have something while I type furiously and try to figure out how to copypaste quotes from spoilers.
Spoiler: Night 2 Cop proposal
Shirou is one of the best possible cop checks if we have a night 2 cop.
Now now, I know what some of you may be thinking. We should be trying to generate guilties, not checking widely townread players. To that, I'd like to ask you to re-evaluate what exactly it is that makes you think Shirou
won't
generate a guilty. There have been some lingering doubts ever since NSG's paranoia post. They have constantly taken a very town-leaderly approach, which is extremely dangerous if they're scum. It is better that we clear any doubts about this slot sooner than later. If we do this too late and they turn out to be scum it's more than likely that the damage has already been done and we're on the verge of losing anyways. Worst case scenario, we have 3 real cop checks left and 2 to 3 fake ones, and I think it is absolutely in town's best interest to place one of them here.
This smells bad. I think we have several players in the list who have taken similar approaches to Shirou, i.e., diving in and having detailed, thorough conversations with their reads. I'm not sure I'd call it a town leader approach per se, but it's not unique to Shirou this game. And idk, something ineffable about the phrasing of this is just weird. I can't tell if it's just me not gelling with Tejate's way of speaking or what.
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Post Post #2102 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:22 pm

Post by Shirou »

In post 2083, MegAzumarill wrote:Does anyone have experience with shirou's playstyle as town/scum?
actually to answer this seriously the answer is kinda no

The unique person that had decent experience with me was NSG. GL's game against scum!me is too old, and Implosion has the ~best~ experience out of everyone left but he still only saw me as scum once, never as town.
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"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
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Post Post #2103 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:23 pm

Post by morph the cat »

By wider view, I feel like he's more actively into what's happening with other slots. Your interactions have been more focused.

And I guess I'm kinda annoyed with you both because aside from this one interaction that you kicked off, I feel like on day one, I was acting and you were reacting, and GL was on an entirely different planet from me, though he was doing stuff out there in interplanetary space.

It's a slight difference, maybe? But both approaches have me scrabbling for something to hold onto wrt your alignments.

The way I pick up on GL's focus vs yours is entirely due to the way I approach games, myself. I don't even know if it would resonate outside my own head.
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Post Post #2104 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:24 pm

Post by numberQ »

In post 2080, MegAzumarill wrote:
In post 2079, Shirou wrote:
In post 2070, MegAzumarill wrote:I don't feel like continuing this conversation is +town regardless of your alignment at this point.
do you think I care about whether it's +town or not?

do you think I care about whether I'm being oh so helpful for the collective town or not

what I DO CARE about is deciding whether I should death tunnel your slot or not because not only I feel bad-faith is all over your approach on my slot, but also because even if you're town I don't trust your judgement on other slots very much if that's your "case"/"read" on me, and your logic is so alien that it tilts me as well.

do you want me to write you a better case on myself so that you can adopt it rather than the kind of stuff you've been using? I could consider being that generous I think
If you are town and are trying to do things that hurt the towns chances of winning that is..... not good

If you want to death tunnel go ahead but no need to disrupt conversation while doing so
The whole Shirou/Meg thing is so bizarre to me. And this post in particular really stands out. It's like... Meg tunnels Shirou on weird logic that gets refuted over and over, Shirou gets frustrated about it, then Meg shades Shirou for that frustration being anti-town. Feels like entrapment or something.
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Post Post #2105 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:26 pm

Post by Shirou »

It was quite amusing to me to see how NSG would develop her read on me you know? Especially if she was town. It was one of the fun points of this game for me. Now there's only teasing implosion sometimes but he's probably gonna keep me in this null-ish zone for the entire game perhaps, even if he ends up voting me or trusting me, I feel he would put me in null-town or null-scum zone rather than settle his read on me...maybe?

"Shirou sounds town at first glance but...*gasp*, he may be scum!" never fails to make me giggle a bit.
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
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Post Post #2106 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:32 pm

Post by Shirou »

wait I was shitposting so I forgot but this is important

please reply
In post 2063, Shirou wrote:
In post 2048, MegAzumarill wrote:Alright I know it's been like 3 years since you joined
wait...how do you know this?
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
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Post Post #2107 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:36 pm

Post by Tejate Raichu »

In post 2101, numberQ wrote:
In post 2028, Tejate Raichu wrote:I was going to make this part of the big post, but I'll just leave this here so I've at least posted something beyond "I am making a post." So here you go, have something while I type furiously and try to figure out how to copypaste quotes from spoilers.
Spoiler: Night 2 Cop proposal
Shirou is one of the best possible cop checks if we have a night 2 cop.
Now now, I know what some of you may be thinking. We should be trying to generate guilties, not checking widely townread players. To that, I'd like to ask you to re-evaluate what exactly it is that makes you think Shirou
won't
generate a guilty. There have been some lingering doubts ever since NSG's paranoia post. They have constantly taken a very town-leaderly approach, which is extremely dangerous if they're scum. It is better that we clear any doubts about this slot sooner than later. If we do this too late and they turn out to be scum it's more than likely that the damage has already been done and we're on the verge of losing anyways. Worst case scenario, we have 3 real cop checks left and 2 to 3 fake ones, and I think it is absolutely in town's best interest to place one of them here.
This smells bad. I think we have several players in the list who have taken similar approaches to Shirou, i.e., diving in and having detailed, thorough conversations with their reads. I'm not sure I'd call it a town leader approach per se, but it's not unique to Shirou this game. And idk, something ineffable about the phrasing of this is just weird. I can't tell if it's just me not gelling with Tejate's way of speaking or what.
Shirou and myself have bumped heads quite possibly the most of any two slots. Up there with GL and implosion, at least. It's not that I'm not making an effort to read Shirou through the course of the game, I made that post because I genuinely believe that this is not a bad idea.

Maybe it is a problem how I talk, because that's clearly gotten me in a heap of entirely avoidable trouble this game. I tend to type things out stream of consciousness to help me sort out my thoughts.
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Post Post #2108 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:38 pm

Post by Shirou »

VOTE: Meg

I think I'm changing my mind on who is the best slot to yeet today
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
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Post Post #2109 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:42 pm

Post by Shirou »

I'm kinda spending way more time and effort in this game than I planned to...
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
(Aka Volpe14)
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Post Post #2110 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:48 pm

Post by Shirou »

the more I think about it though the more I like the ~thing~ about NSG...ugh

if Meg was only Meg I would have entered death tunnel mode already I think, but...

I'll go sleep and mull over this.
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
(Aka Volpe14)
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Post Post #2111 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:21 pm

Post by fua »

Birthday time.
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Post Post #2112 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:34 pm

Post by numberQ »

Happy birthday fua and happy scumday Shirou!
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Post Post #2113 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:43 pm

Post by catboi »

Vote Count 2.03

Tejate Raichu (3):
fua, Cephrir, GuiltyLion
implosion (2):
numberQ, Tejate Raichu
GuiltyLion (1):
implosion
Shirou (1):
MegAzumarill
MegAzumarill (1):
Shirou

Not Voting (4):
Amazonian Legends, morph the cat, redtea, Ydrasse


With 12 alive, it's 7 to eliminate.



Deadline for Day 2 is January 31 at 6:00 PM EST.


Deadline Timer:
(expired on 2022-01-31 19:00:00)
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Post Post #2114 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:46 pm

Post by numberQ »

In post 2107, Tejate Raichu wrote:
In post 2101, numberQ wrote:
In post 2028, Tejate Raichu wrote:I was going to make this part of the big post, but I'll just leave this here so I've at least posted something beyond "I am making a post." So here you go, have something while I type furiously and try to figure out how to copypaste quotes from spoilers.
Spoiler: Night 2 Cop proposal
Shirou is one of the best possible cop checks if we have a night 2 cop.
Now now, I know what some of you may be thinking. We should be trying to generate guilties, not checking widely townread players. To that, I'd like to ask you to re-evaluate what exactly it is that makes you think Shirou
won't
generate a guilty. There have been some lingering doubts ever since NSG's paranoia post. They have constantly taken a very town-leaderly approach, which is extremely dangerous if they're scum. It is better that we clear any doubts about this slot sooner than later. If we do this too late and they turn out to be scum it's more than likely that the damage has already been done and we're on the verge of losing anyways. Worst case scenario, we have 3 real cop checks left and 2 to 3 fake ones, and I think it is absolutely in town's best interest to place one of them here.
This smells bad. I think we have several players in the list who have taken similar approaches to Shirou, i.e., diving in and having detailed, thorough conversations with their reads. I'm not sure I'd call it a town leader approach per se, but it's not unique to Shirou this game. And idk, something ineffable about the phrasing of this is just weird. I can't tell if it's just me not gelling with Tejate's way of speaking or what.
Shirou and myself have bumped heads quite possibly the most of any two slots. Up there with GL and implosion, at least. It's not that I'm not making an effort to read Shirou through the course of the game, I made that post because I genuinely believe that this is not a bad idea.

Maybe it is a problem how I talk, because that's clearly gotten me in a heap of entirely avoidable trouble this game. I tend to type things out stream of consciousness to help me sort out my thoughts.
The phrasing isn't the main thing that stood out to me, maybe I shouldn't have even brought it up because that's incredibly subjective and I don't know you on the level to get a read out of your way of speaking.

Mainly, I'm unsure why Shirou specifically. It is true you've had quite a bit of back and forth with him, so if that's also driving your desire to see him copped, okay. But none of the reasons you gave in the original quote are specific to him. What makes Shirou fit your description better than, for example, GL?
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Post Post #2115 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:39 pm

Post by Tejate Raichu »

In post 2114, numberQ wrote:
In post 2107, Tejate Raichu wrote:
In post 2101, numberQ wrote:
In post 2028, Tejate Raichu wrote:I was going to make this part of the big post, but I'll just leave this here so I've at least posted something beyond "I am making a post." So here you go, have something while I type furiously and try to figure out how to copypaste quotes from spoilers.
Spoiler: Night 2 Cop proposal
Shirou is one of the best possible cop checks if we have a night 2 cop.
Now now, I know what some of you may be thinking. We should be trying to generate guilties, not checking widely townread players. To that, I'd like to ask you to re-evaluate what exactly it is that makes you think Shirou
won't
generate a guilty. There have been some lingering doubts ever since NSG's paranoia post. They have constantly taken a very town-leaderly approach, which is extremely dangerous if they're scum. It is better that we clear any doubts about this slot sooner than later. If we do this too late and they turn out to be scum it's more than likely that the damage has already been done and we're on the verge of losing anyways. Worst case scenario, we have 3 real cop checks left and 2 to 3 fake ones, and I think it is absolutely in town's best interest to place one of them here.
This smells bad. I think we have several players in the list who have taken similar approaches to Shirou, i.e., diving in and having detailed, thorough conversations with their reads. I'm not sure I'd call it a town leader approach per se, but it's not unique to Shirou this game. And idk, something ineffable about the phrasing of this is just weird. I can't tell if it's just me not gelling with Tejate's way of speaking or what.
Shirou and myself have bumped heads quite possibly the most of any two slots. Up there with GL and implosion, at least. It's not that I'm not making an effort to read Shirou through the course of the game, I made that post because I genuinely believe that this is not a bad idea.

Maybe it is a problem how I talk, because that's clearly gotten me in a heap of entirely avoidable trouble this game. I tend to type things out stream of consciousness to help me sort out my thoughts.
The phrasing isn't the main thing that stood out to me, maybe I shouldn't have even brought it up because that's incredibly subjective and I don't know you on the level to get a read out of your way of speaking.

Mainly, I'm unsure why Shirou specifically. It is true you've had quite a bit of back and forth with him, so if that's also driving your desire to see him copped, okay. But none of the reasons you gave in the original quote are specific to him. What makes Shirou fit your description better than, for example, GL?
Because Shirou is the one who is by far taking charge the most, the one who is pushing viable wagons, the one who is casing and interacting with more slots than most people here can say. If I was N2 cop for example, checked redtea, and they came up guilty, what does that actually tell me? That redtea is scum, sure, yes, that is helpful. But it tells me nothing else. redtea's iso is one of the thinnest and least informative in the whole game. But if Shirou comes up scum, that can be a serious help in us casing just about any slot in the game. Similarly, if they come up town, what does redtea turning up town offer us? Nothing. It prevents 1 potential mis-elim from a cop claim (which is not necessarily reliable), and may end up being elimmed later anyways if the cop turns out to be fake. But with Shirou, there is no reason for me at least to doubt their mindset if they come up inno, which is a net positive.

That being said, GL or implo would be my second choice for a cop check. I'm not getting TvT vibes from that interaction, and I'm usually pretty decent at that. The reason they aren't my first choice is because their interactions are primarily with eachother. I'd rather just flip one and get it over with than draw it out with a cop check.

The other reason is that, if Shirou is scum, there is absolutely no world in which they get elimmed without a cop claiming a guilty on them. They aren't universally townread, but they are townread enough that I don't see them not surviving to late game assuming they don't get nightkilled.
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Post Post #2116 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:14 pm

Post by implosion »

I solidly believe "TvT vibes" are a myth. Just post your reasons post and call me scum explicitly :P
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Post Post #2117 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:29 pm

Post by Tejate Raichu »

In post 2116, implosion wrote:I solidly believe "TvT vibes" are a myth. Just post your reasons post and call me scum explicitly :P
Patience. I'm not spending every waking moment on this one post.

Also, agree to disagree. I can hear a TvT dispute from a mile away, even with the lights turned off.
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Post Post #2118 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:00 pm

Post by implosion »

If you're willing to call a dispute TvT, that's ultimately necessarily because you're willing to call each of the individual reactions T->?.

There's no distinction between a T->T interaction and a T->S interaction from the perspective of evaluating the alignment of the person doing the interaction; both of them look like someone convinced that the person they're arguing about is scum.

Ergo there's no actual meaningfulness to "I get TvT vibes" other than "I think both of the individual interactors look like town, and I don't buy either of their arguments".
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Post Post #2119 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:33 pm

Post by Shirou »

In post 2115, Tejate Raichu wrote:It prevents 1 potential mis-elim from a cop claim (which is not necessarily reliable)
you...you do realize we can't have that many miseliminations so saving us from one is actually almost the entire point of cops and why they are considered so powerful right...?

(it's also because they can get "a hard to read player's alignment correctly" sure, but I feel that's more of a secondary use since not every playerlist has one player like that?)

Well, either way I probably should stop talking about this "cop Shirou" stuff, it probably creates more WIFOM than it helps at this point I guess.
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
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Post Post #2120 (ISO) » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:35 pm

Post by Shirou »

By the way Meg, Tejate now seems to be tying GL/Implo alignments in a 50/50 as well. Are you going to have an issue with that or is it be another case of displaying some degree of selective bias from you?
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
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Post Post #2121 (ISO) » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:13 am

Post by Shirou »

In post 2112, numberQ wrote:Happy birthday fua and happy scumday Shirou!
thanks NQ

also yes, happy birthday² fua.
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
(Aka Volpe14)
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MegAzumarill
MegAzumarill
She/Her
Jack of All Trades
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MegAzumarill
She/Her
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Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5470
Joined: July 14, 2021
Pronoun: She/Her

Post Post #2122 (ISO) » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:30 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

Happy scumday shirou
happy birthday Fua
Imprefection is the spice of life.
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MegAzumarill
MegAzumarill
She/Her
Jack of All Trades
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MegAzumarill
She/Her
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Jack of All Trades
Posts: 5470
Joined: July 14, 2021
Pronoun: She/Her

Post Post #2123 (ISO) » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:33 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

In post 2120, Shirou wrote:By the way Meg, Tejate now seems to be tying GL/Implo alignments in a 50/50 as well. Are you going to have an issue with that or is it be another case of displaying some degree of selective bias from you?
I mean it's a different scenario han with you but like I said I won't get into it atm.

I'll give my thoughts later today a little short on time atm
Imprefection is the spice of life.
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Shirou
Shirou
He/Him
Mafia Scum
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Shirou
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Joined: January 25, 2021
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Post Post #2124 (ISO) » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:35 am

Post by Shirou »

In post 2106, Shirou wrote:wait I was shitposting so I forgot but this is important

please reply
In post 2063, Shirou wrote:
In post 2048, MegAzumarill wrote:Alright I know it's been like 3 years since you joined
wait...how do you know this?
いつだってヒーロー。

"listen i know its funny to say shirou is scum but shirou is just literally crazy"
~Firebringer on town!Shirou
"Not if it was Volpe's PLAN all along that we lim him and when he flips red we think Wooper is scum"
~town!Norwee jokes about scum!Shirou's actual plan
(Aka Volpe14)
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