Open 887: Coalition of Frogs (Game Over)

[RH9]

My attempt at taking a hiatus failed.
Anyways, I'll read up some ISOs and form some preliminary reads.

[RH9]

hi rh9!

Hi!

[RH9]

I don't think I'd want STD today.
His ISO doesn't feel agenda-y at all.

[RH9]

I need to look back at implo's scumgame but rn he feels nullish.

[RH9]

implo likes mech though so scum!implo would probably have a strategy that involves it.

[RH9]

Though, I'll tentatively VOTE: implo because I feel like STD's hammer could a genuine mistake and implo's using it against him.
Also, the focus on Datisi.

[RH9]

Also, STD could've been genuinely TRing the people in the coalition at that time.

[RH9]

I don't think I'd want STD today.
His ISO doesn't feel agenda-y at all.

To this point, I think this is actually contextually a scumtell, maybe a strong one. Imagine replacing in to a slot that is already widely being put in coalitions as town, vs as scum. As town, you would absolutely have an agenda, as in stuff you need to be doing: you're in the coalition, you need to sort the other people that are currently widely townread and make sure you think the coalition is good or propose an alternate coalition. Like, I felt like I wanted to get the right coalition, because people were townreading me and the game is way easier if we just get it right the first time so I wanted to be careful. On the other hand, if you replace into a scum slot that's in people's coalitions, you don't need to have any agenda - so long as you remain in the coalition, you're good.

The reason that having an agenda would be scummy in the first place is that scum sometimes need to think in terms of eliminating specific people who they know are on to them or other scum, but that doesn't apply to a coalition phase.

I see.
TBH I did not consider this.

[RH9]

Though, I'll tentatively VOTE: implo because I feel like STD's hammer could a genuine mistake and implo's using it against him.
Also, the focus on Datisi.

Honestly, this post is baffling. "could be a genuine mistake and implo's using it against him" is an argument that just lacks any curiosity or desire to interrogate the hammer. Or me and my play for that matter. Do you think it was a genuine mistake? Why do you think it was a genuine mistake? Why would it being a genuine mistake make STD town? He could have mistakenly hammered as scum.

[snip because that was re: Drew's argument]

Also, what does "the focus on Datisi" mean?

Yes, I think it's a genuine mistake. STD said he wasn't paying attention and honestly, I can see myself accidentally hammering a coalition with me and my TRs if I was not paying attention. Well, you do make a good point that it's null but I feel like scum would want to avoid a scenario where they'd be the obvious suspect.
And re: focus on Datisi, I saw that you were SRing him pretty hard in your ISO and I feel like STD repping in and hammering the coalition gave you a reason to push a scum!STD world.

[RH9]

@mod V/LA for the rest of today

[RH9]

It's hard to come in and post meaningfully when we are basically at an impasse. Here's what I'm currently thinking: everyone who is one either the std or implo wagon has given their reason for doing so, and recently.

THS, you have had a vote on Hero since Sept 26. That was during D1, you haven't changed it since then. Mala, you have had a vote on Ari since Sept 28th- again, a vote you placed in D1. I think that you both need to either a) make a good case for why four other folks should leave thier current wagon for yours or b) stop sitting on your votes and get on either the implo or std wagon.

(btw, yes I do find it sussy to realize how long you've both been sitting on those votes. I get that the game has been moving slowly but c'mon)

I replaced Mala like a while ago and I'm on implo?

[RH9]

And re: focus on Datisi, I saw that you were SRing him pretty hard in your ISO

...what? This is a wildly inaccurate reading of my ISO. I at no point had a hard scumread or really any solid read on Datisi, I just disagreed with the reasons he was being townread.

My bad, then.
But a quick skim through your ISO genuinely made me think you were SRing Datisi the most.

[RH9]

Also, if you really think that I'm this bad at scum, I'd suggest you look at my previous scumgames.

[RH9]

It's hard to come in and post meaningfully when we are basically at an impasse. Here's what I'm currently thinking: everyone who is one either the std or implo wagon has given their reason for doing so, and recently.

THS, you have had a vote on Hero since Sept 26. That was during D1, you haven't changed it since then. Mala, you have had a vote on Ari since Sept 28th- again, a vote you placed in D1. I think that you both need to either a) make a good case for why four other folks should leave thier current wagon for yours or b) stop sitting on your votes and get on either the implo or std wagon.

(btw, yes I do find it sussy to realize how long you've both been sitting on those votes. I get that the game has been moving slowly but c'mon)

I replaced Mala like a while ago and I'm on implo?

I'm sorry! I mean Bella

No problems!

[RH9]

rh9:

do you agree that std has lied about the hammer?

do you know how in a recently completed game (i forgot which), you lied as town and then you basically admitted that you lied? well std has not admitted that he's lying. what do you make of that?

If STD is lying as town I think I can get it.
Not sure why we're voting him if that's the case though?
So I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

[RH9]

okay time to do an alianna

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

this game is haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard

should i just vote std and then cry in the corner if it turns out i was right all along and he was town and ari was scum

Why Ari?

[RH9]

Maybe he's given up on convincing everybody that's he's not scum?

[RH9]

I forgot who suggested a scumteam of me/STD again, but if you read Open 840, you can see that the last time I replaced into a scum slot, I attacked Luke (who was also scum) almost from the get go while I defended Pav (who was Town).

[RH9]

And both implo and Ari ought to know this.
And the fact that implo had thought I am scum with STD, makes me think that I'm making the right choice to continue voting for him.

[RH9]

I'm not sure from these latest posts, RH9, are you thinking STD is scum?

I think implo is, because, based on a reread, he knows what my scumgame looks like and hasn't been acknowledging that the posts I made upon replacing in (

if he genuinely thinks I'm scum

) make more sense in a implo/me world than a STD/me world.

[RH9]

i could be convinced on Bella but it'd be sort of a hard sell. I sort of have a hard time imagining wanting to lim anyone other than RH today though. His argument that I should be seeing that he is playing differently from the game I've seen him as scum is kind of absurd (like, sure, you bussed once, okay, most players don't always bus or always not bus). I don't think I have much of a read on RH's play in isolation but the circumstantial evidence of Mala's coalition vote + RH9 not particularly feeling like town means like I said yesterday I don't really want the slot living to endgame. I feel probably less confident on him than I did on STD but mostly because of the coalition info.

Honestly it was RHs reaction to my intent to hammer that made me feel better about said hammer.

I feel better about scumRH now then I did about scumStd yesterday.

First, it was not a reaction to your intent to hammer.
Second, it was not to defend STD.
Also, do you really think scum!me spends the entirety of yesterday screaming for implo's head when I could have voted STD at a safer time?

[RH9]

RH's last few posts really read like a last ditch effort to save std, especially since I said I would hammer them.

So unless anyone else has something to say, I am going to hammer std.

Like in a half hour or so.

They do in one sense. But in another sense, it seems like people who go against the grain of the bandwagon so hard turn out to be town more often than scum?

Also this.

[RH9]

Don't you all think that scum would've seen that supporting STD was a bad move?
Have you all not considered that most of you are getting confbiased and are trying to filter things to fit your worldview?
All simply because you were right D1?

[RH9]

Though, I just realised only Drew really ever thought the above.

[RH9]

RH9, so who's scum?

I'm not sure but probably between implo and Bella.
Drew is probably confbiased town.
Hero could be town, I guess? implo's points on his D1 play is valid.
Though, I agree with you that it's weird he wasn't NKed.
And I'm unsure on you and Ari.

[RH9]

oh okay THS dies whattt

So, who do you think are scum, now?

[RH9]

but actually scum!RH9 could just have wifom killed THS, it's not even that unlikely

and i think that this post:

I'm not sure from these latest posts, RH9, are you thinking STD is scum?

I think implo is, because, based on a reread, he knows what my scumgame looks like and hasn't been acknowledging that the posts I made upon replacing in (

if he genuinely thinks I'm scum

) make more sense in a implo/me world than a STD/me world.

is not an argument town makes, because why would town say that implo should think implo is scum? that's a weird argument, of the kind back in the day people called a scum slip.

Uh.
To point out that implo knew my meta well enough that the possible scenario would be ludicrous to himself and thus, town!implo might be more willing to rethink things?

[RH9]

Though, it seems my meta never factored in implo's reads.
P-edit: I ought to reread D1 too.

[RH9]

did you ever even read d1 in the first placr

The part prior to my rep in, not really. Everything else, yes.
This is excluding mainly implo's and STD's ISOs.

[RH9]

Though, it seems my meta never factored in implo's reads.
P-edit: I ought to reread D1 too.

RH9 when you sign up for a game you should actually try to play it

True.
I have been trying to, though.

[RH9]

btw RH9
you were scumreading implo, right?
did that change at all following std's flip?

Kinda, as it's not as strong as it was D1, but he's still in my scumpool, unless I'm wrong on Merlyn/you/Ari.
P-edit: I did.

[RH9]

but he's still in my scumpool, unless I'm wrong on Merlyn/you/Ari.

elaborate?

In that, I had Merlyn/Ari as nulltown and you as town.
implo was nullish after STD's flip and the NK, so he's in the PoE for me with Bella.
And I'm probably going to reevaluate my reads today since implo has actually been pretty consistent in his reads and there have been some times I've agreed with him. (Mainly on you.)
P-edit: Yes. Soon.

[RH9]

@mod V/LA every weekend

In case I haven't said this earlier.

[RH9]

@mod V/LA every weekend

In case I haven't said this earlier.

[RH9]

Oops.
Doubleposted.

[RH9]

Uh.
To point out that implo knew my meta well enough that the possible scenario would be ludicrous to himself and thus, town!implo might be more willing to rethink things?

I also just, want to belabor this point, because, well, I just have to.

I do not "know your meta" well. I remember having played one game with you as scum (i think? I assume you're referencing that one guardians of the fortress game from whenever it was) but probably wouldn't have remembered you were scum if you didn't say it, at least off the top of my head. I did not remember that you had hard bussed on replacing in. You hard bussing on replacing in does not mean that you will always hard bus on replacing in or that you can't hard defend your scumbuddy on replacing in and I have no idea why you are implying that your "meta" is to always act the same way in every game you play as scum and that i should know this based on one game you played in a wildly different setup where bussing is heavily incentivized because you have no control over scumbuddies' fates.

Fair point.
(It was the GotF game, which you and Ari were both in.)

[RH9]

I think I'd go for Bella today, then.
VOTE: Bella

[RH9]

Also,

@mod V/LA every Thursday

[RH9]

If you really want Hero today, we can do him.
Though, I agree with Merlyn that his EoD would've been performative as scum.

[RH9]

Congrats, implo!