Open 713: Jungle Republic [Game Over]

[BuJaber]

Somebody asked me about the wolf accusation and not generic scum. It's because scum don't have NK they don't have anything to hurry for.

[BuJaber]

BuJaber's reactions to minimal pressure are damning. Lynch nao.

And this what gave me the impression he wants the day over quick.

[LaserGuy]

@Laser - what are your thoughts on viewtopic.php?p=9975923#p9975923 ?

Upon review, I'm still seeing this mostly as TvT. I get a couple of pings here and there, but nothing that I feel is strongly scum-indicative at this point.

She has not actually shown me encouraging people to pick a side in any way.

She is arguing that the manner that you were framing the argument implicitly encourages people to pick sides. She mentions this specifically in 46. I don't believe she ever suggested that you were explicitly calling for people to jump to one side or the other (which would, IMHO, be pretty scummy were you to do that). I also do not believe you did this, and in fact have been quite fastidious in focusing on your points and not trying to solicit opinions on the arguments.

She has not questioned anyone else for setting up any sort of disagreement.

She did call out BuJabar for saying that exactly one of the two of you is scum in 181, which is a similar sort of thing.

She agrees I wasn't unfair in my question.
She has now agreed that there was already inherently conflict (indeed, it was created by the person she is claiming is town in this exchange)
She agrees that her best examples of how I could have questioned the player *also* caused conflict.
So her basic claim is, I asked a question that was a little more standoffish than it should have had to have been.

So after you've argued this out, she basically agrees with your accounting of events, and she was probably scumreading your tone and aggression more than anything else. Unfortunately, this is not really alignment indicative as townies scumread aggression

all the time

. I have a bit of experience with this from some more aggressive games I've played on my homesite, and it is very annoying, but it is not usually indicative of scum, especially this early in the game.

And she's doubling down on it as a valid issue to call me scum over this.
(and has now expanded to me misrepping her)

This is the only part of your case that I really agree with as possibly scum indicative, but isn't strong enough for me to really feel an urge to put down a vote. It could be frustrated Town. On the whole, I think this is most likely TvT. I'd suggest you both back down from your tunnels for awhile and see what else is going on that you find interesting... you can always come back to this later if you feel the need.

[Dr Fanta]

Wait guys, I've got the perfect way to find out who's a werewolf: Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy?? You are! You are!! I've got a bone!

No, but seriously, it's really hard to participate in this discussion because I'm seeing a lot of "maybe it's BuJaber, maybe it's Korina, maybe it's someone else entirely??" and BuJaber being super defensive alongside Korina only posting reasons/excuses for lurking instead of posting, y'kno,

useful

stuff.

I think Buj's frustration with beef and his desre to not be lynch just because no one cares is very genuine. Townreading him for it.

I'm partial to agreeing with Paradox, BUT could this be a scum player not wanting to be D1 lynch? At the moment they have a minority and if they lose one to lynch and possibly lose another one to NK, that could definitely give town a distinct advantage for the game's continuance. I don't want to give him an easy pass because he's doing something any (sane) player would.

-Fanta

[mutantdevle]

Votecount 1.4

(4)

BuJaber - voted by: Espeonage, Beefster, Dr Fanta, wilky.

(2)

wilky - voted by: TheGoldenParadox, Not_Mafia.

(2)

Korina - voted by:BuJaber, LaserGuy.

(1)

skitter30 - voted by: Thor665.

(1)

Beefster - voted by: Montosh.

(1)

Thor665 - voted by: skitter30.

(1)

Not voting: Korina.

With 12 players alive, 7 votes are needed for a majority. Only 6 votes are needed for a no lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-03-01 17:30:00)

[Dr Fanta]

bujaber: espeon, beefster, dr fanta, wilky
wilky: paradox, notmafia
korina: bujaber, laserguy
thor: skitter
skitter: thor
beefster: montosh

nv: korina

I got impatient -Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

Also, I'm going to do this;

VOTE: skitter

Until he can describe how he isn't calling me scum for scumhunting.

Not even that far into catching up and I stumble upon this scumclaim. Too easy.
VOTE: Thor665

[Dr Fanta]

Caught up, still loving my vote.

-Pepper

[BuJaber]

Apart from the quote what else pings you about thor?

I can't decide who's more likely to be scum between thor/skitter.

[Thor665]

1. I voted someone to get somebody to attack me.
2. I intentionally set up the attack on me to obligate people to react to it.
3. I knew they'd be more likely to agree with me than whoever I argued with.

This is what I'm referring to by "that".

I don't see anyone town-motivated player doing this.

What makes you think I did that as opposed to just asking a question?

As for the speed it was within 5 hours or so that 3 people declared they agreed with espeo. Laser didn't actually vote for me but he stated willingness. Fanta especially comes in votes for the hot wagon and leaves yet again.

Slight goalpost move, but okay.
I really see little reason to suspect Laser right now - do you honestly have him as scummy for expressing general interest in a case on you without a vote?
I'll agree Fanta is giving about spit to read them over, but I don't quite equate them to general opportunism yet. Just leaping on me now is leaping on a pretty stale situation, and they did so with a thin, yet at least new, claim of scumminess - does that effect your read there at all?

She did call out BuJabar for saying that exactly one of the two of you is scum in 181, which is a similar sort of thing.

I can agree very loosely with that - but *literally every debate in the game is about people having a disagreement over something*.
Like, just now this second, you and I are disagreeing.
She and I are disagreeing.
BuJaber and you are disagreeing.
If this is an actual scumtell she has she should be hitting reactions off of it literally constantly.
That's why she had to reinvent it to 'you did it in a certain more forceful way' to try to distance from the reality I had pointed out about this.

Does that not twig you at all?
It's twigging the hell out of me, and I don't see any way I'm reading it wrong.

[Thor665]

@Fanta - considering your personal vote count, why did you get off a wagon with 4 votes to get on one with 1 vote? What's your current BuJabber take?

[Montosh]

Gonna do some catch-up.

On NM, I think it's not a good idea to let him coast along for too long. It's what he did the last game I played with him, where we were both scum, and he was very good at not getting too noticed and having people think he was town because his play was consistent with his meta and therefore NAI.

If he actually engages at some point then we can get some reads but if he continues like this it basically becomes impossible to read him.

That is exactly my point.
Espeo wants us to lynch rather than let him coast. But if everyone is in agreement that NM doing nothing is NAI then the odds of him playing scum or wolf or town are equal. It is basically just a shot in the dark.

We let him live for a while and maybe you get more information to act on.

Weren't you all about lynching him just a few posts before? Or rather lynching a lurker? What changed? Just that it's his meta?

I don't like how suddenly and inexplicably you keep changing your opinions on things. You don't do much in the way of explanation and rather just assert things.

All of these things are true in any setup. The fact that this is multiball increases the odds of us hitting scum compared to a single team, in fact, and if the odds were really that much worse than chance, then we'd be better off letting random.org do the lynch, because then the odds would be exactly chance. But that isn't really the point. The point is that your perspective on how the lynch is going to go is not that of Town. Your post hoc rationalization doesn't change the initial error.

Honestly, I think that people might sometimes forget that they're playing multiball, and just play like it's singleball.

Like you also sound like you forgot we were playing multiball here in the bolded below; you're ignoring the possibility that thor/paradox might be s v w.

Unfortunately, yes, Town do this as well. I don't think all of the participants are necessarily scum, but I think it's more likely that we'll find scum in {BuJabar, Korina, skitter} than in {Thor, Paradox}.

Unless, I suppose, both you and Paradox are scumbuddies and this is all theatre, which is certainly possible for D1,

but I don't think that's what happening here.

I think you're reading too much into that statement by montosh tbh.

No, I was specifically referring to Thor and Paradox being aligned scum here. But your defense of Montosh is noted.

Translation: I'm scum because I read the setup

Good job misrepresenting my argument. That's sure to earn you lots of townie credit.

What exactly is your argument? That my post seemed like it was from the perspective of scum? Because as I recall the whole point of my little aside to Thor there was to think about what scum were likely to be doing.

The 2/5 is explained in the posts I made earlier: (actually 2/6 I mentioned.. 1 from thor/skitter/paradox, 1 from laser, espeo, beef) but it could also be more - say 3 or 4 from those 6, but that's statistically a much lower chance.

I think you're making the same mistake as Montoge here... you aren't correctly accounting for the number of scum in the game and it's leading you to make some really weird conclusions.

Let's suppose you're right and there's exactly one scum in {Thor/Skitter/Paradox} and one in {Laser, Espeo, Beef}. Who should we lynch? From the point of view of Town!you, we should lynch one of {Not Mafia, Dr Fanta, Korina, wilky and Montosh}. According to your reads, three of those five players are scum. You have a much better chance of hitting scum in that pool than you do in either of the pools that you're interested in.

Oh now I really don't like this. You seem to be trying to associate me to an argument I didn't make, and one which is completely different from the one I made.

I also don't like how Bujaber backed off after you said this, as this is a bad argument because you

aren't correctly accounting for the number of scum in the game.

Those three person groups could easily be S vs W under Bujaber's argument rather than T vs S. It feels like he was using any excuse to get off a wagon he didn't feel was working.

VOTE: Bujaber

I think it's probably fairly good play. But it doesn't feel like the norm exactly. Does it really surprise you that people reacted to that? Like, I think i'm getting that your style of play is to after

every

thread of info hard, but I can't believe you've never had people being off put a little by just how hard you go at it.

Whether or not I'm used to people being offput by my play does nothing to suggest how often I find scum trying to claim that 'different' equates to 'scummy' nor how often I manage to catch them after doing so.

You spent a whole lot of words to avoid answering the question - you're basically admitting nothing I did actually was particularly scummy, yet are defending your right to attack it on a vague conceptual basis without being willing to say that you yourself found it suspect for xyz reasons.

Why is that?

This is a misrepresentation of the situation. It was not your play I even questioned, it had more to do with your reaction to people's surprise. I couldn't believe you'd never experienced that (you've still not answered this) and I thought you taking issue with that surprise seemed a bit feigned and artifical.

[Montosh]

Ok, the rest will have to wait until tonight.

[Thor665]

it had more to do with your reaction to people's surprise.

Can you quote my reaction and maybe explain why it's strange?

[Thor665]

Because - short answer - I don't think I had a strange reaction, and I'm generally used to the idea of people thinking I'm aggressive.

[BuJaber]

You can't possibly be still asking me about NM?

Here's the whole story summarized again.

I said I had a theory that there is definitely scum lurking in the game. So I wanted to vote there. NM hadn't posted at all at the time so it was the most obvious choice. So I voted NM for lurking.

Espeo later says NM coasts as scum and gets away with it so we should lynch him.

I argued that NM lurking is NAI and so he would do it either alignment and there's no hurry in lynching him particularly if it's just a 50-50 with him. I changed my vote because at that time there were other things to react to and a lurker vote didn't make sense anymore.

So yeah we both voted but for different reasons.

In the same game I am getting voted for narrowing my vote pool and for changing my vote a lot. Make up your mind.

[Thor665]

From my experience, a policy vote on someone, plus saying that they could be scum on top of that, inferring that you meant that there was a 5/12 chance of them being scum so the policy wagon is somewhat justified, seems scummy to me. It seems like an outright scumtell.

Why do you have this experience? Can you show me scum doing it in your games?
I can *assuredly* show you town doing it many times - would that adjust your opinion or no?

@Skitter

By the by, as I was going back to scan my iso to try to figure out what Montash was on about (since I'll admit to a feeling he's going to duck my request) and I found this gem.
You're really holding on to the very first interaction I had with Paradox to try to sell that I was overly aggressive, but...man, gotta tell you, the second interaction seems to be very reasoned, responsible, and interested in him explaining himself more than setting up some sort of strange scum gambit of choices to be townread over.

How does that fit into your scumThor narrative exactly?

[Beefster]

I wasn't calling you naive I was saying it would be naive of me. Stating you only want to lynch 2 people is a strategy. But stubbornly sticking to these 2 people would be naive. Therefore taking it literally is you calling me naive. But I concede I'm clearly in the wrong here. Everyone agrees it was scummy so it must be scummy I won't do it in future games.

As for the speed it was within 5 hours or so that 3 people declared they agreed with espeo. Laser didn't actually vote for me but he stated willingness. Fanta especially comes in votes for the hot wagon and leaves yet again.

I think you're exaggerating that I only want to lynch 2 people. It's just you and Korina are the best options right now. We can figure the rest out from there, though I do have a few suspicions.

[Dr Fanta]

Apart from the quote what else pings you about thor?

I can't decide who's more likely to be scum between thor/skitter.

I'll quote more from him on my computer, but to that last sentence:

In my opinion Thor is miles scummier than skitter. But on top of that, this is multiball. They could easily be opposite scum teams.

-Pepper

[Dr Fanta]

@Fanta - considering your personal vote count, why did you get off a wagon with 4 votes to get on one with 1 vote? What's your current BuJabber take?

Actually, Fanta wanted to stay on BuJaber but I kinda stole our vote from them, so.

Mostly because the BuJaber wagon has built really quickly on a really flimsy "case" and I don't find any of his posts particularly scummy, so.

Also, I vote who I think is scummy, not who's most likely to get lynched. Only scum would want to stay on big flimsy wagons and hope they get to Lynch.

[BuJaber]

To be honest if you two are gonna have such wildy conflicting opinions it's gonna be tough for us to keepp you around.

But as far as I am aware this is my first experience playing with a hydra so if this is pretty standard I'll adapt.

Side note - are hydras always disclosed to the players? I know the mod has to know but does it have to be mentioned in opening post?


Beef I'm not sure why you thought you had to respond to that maybe you misinterpreted what my post was responding to. Anyway it's irrelevant I think now and what you said makes perfect sense from town!you's perspective.

[LaserGuy]

What exactly is your argument? That my post seemed like it was from the perspective of scum? Because as I recall the whole point of my little aside to Thor there was to think about what scum were likely to be doing.

Yes, I believe your post came from the perspective of scum. I'm not sure what aside you are referring to. My point on you is based on the point you made about mislynches being likely in this setup.

Oh now I really don't like this. You seem to be trying to associate me to an argument I didn't make, and one which is completely different from the one I made.

I also don't like how Bujaber backed off after you said this, as this is a bad argument because you

aren't correctly accounting for the number of scum in the game.

Those three person groups could easily be S vs W under Bujaber's argument rather than T vs S. It feels like he was using any excuse to get off a wagon he didn't feel was working.

BuJaber specifically said that he felt it likely that there was one scum in each pool, and therefore lynching from those pools makes sense. That's the argument I was responding to.

[BuJaber]

@mod - my access might be limited until saturday. I should still be able to post once a day easily but this is a heads up in case I can't.

- noted

[wilky]

Only just finished work and its 8:30pm where I am just now so i'll catch up on this game tomorrow.

[wilky]

Not sure what the mods prod leniency is so just throwing this in aswell.

Still happy with my vote on Buj