Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[doomfeathers]

Welcome, BlackVoid!

[cassielle]

hi BV

yeah i would /love/ to lynch kidamn, esp because i tried to engage with him and got totally 100% ignored
but that apathy is townish to me.

lets watch BV for now, i think their play will be highly instructive

[doomfeathers]

I'm not necessarily scumreading him. It's a pressure vote, but one I'm willing to stand behind.

[cassielle]

I'm not necessarily scumreading him. It's a pressure vote, but one I'm willing to stand behind.

ahhh
thats fair then
you should always follow up a pressure vote with directed questions though

[cassielle]

thought about it a bit
VOTE: KidAmn

hapa is an easily agreed upon EOD lynch, so i dont feel nervous about putting pressure in other places. well either have towns focus move to another easily-agreed upon slot or we will not. either way, it wont be hard to get a lynch today

kidamn has gone from extremely invested to completely uninvested very quickly with no "warning signs" popping up. this feels like scum trying to redirect, to me. it doesnt feel like townie apathy, as i look into it (esp in context) -- theres missing signs, the whole "back off" thing isnt visible in posts prior. theres townie reasoning, but with daytalk, thats less meaningful because you can always go "hey does this look like obvtown?" in the scum pt

kidamn has the /potential/ (if town) to be a pretty damned good pro-town force. i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning. if he is town, as the wagon fills up he needs to get on top of this game and start being the pro-town player he can be. pressurevoting is an appropriate way to lean on the slot

kidamn's apathy appears (AFAICT) to stem from not being able to push a single scumread -- when there are 3 scum in the game -- without resistance from two other slots interfering
there are very rare cases where you can benefit from digging your heels in and going full lockdown on who you want to deal with -- this isnt one of those cases. due to the setup, any scumlynch is a good scumlynch here (they're all goons), and while you can have /preferences/ you should be willing and able to point at and push a diff scumread if your preferred wagon stalls.
but kidamn is letting two players destroy his case instead of trying to push outside of their circle (and thereby speak to a large group of people who do agree with him)

this says to me that kidamn wants to ml a pro-town player early while the paranoia is rampant and before town can swing associatives, VCA and NKA into play
or that kidamn wants to bus a scum player early and fast for towncred and is feeling nervous/frustrated that townies are derailing that wagon
...or that kidamn is town who doesnt realize how anti-town hes acting -- so heres a wakeup call: dont hit the snooze button, get the hell up

in general i think that kidamn has more of a chance to save himself from the d1 lynch than hapa, due to reading like frustrated town in large part -- pressure and reiterating that i think kidamn can pull himself out of this hole hammers in the idea that he needs to bring his town game to the table ASAP. this is ultimately pro-town because hes an active player who can infodump with the best of them, and i dont think he can smoothly recover from the obvious scumplay if he is actually scum
but if he doesnt step up to the plate, we can only assume that, at best, hes town actively working against his wincon, and at worst, hes scum who took the demotivated townie charade too far

[cassielle]

L-2 on kidamn

i dont want to go to L-1 at least until he posts, keep the votes off for now folks

though i encourage you to say something if you /want/ to vote

[cassielle]

just realized i said something ambiguously hypocritical in that wallpost, should have been more detailed. fixes in bold

kidamn has gone from extremely invested to completely uninvested very quickly with no "warning signs" popping up. this feels like scum trying to redirect, to me. it doesnt feel like townie apathy, as i look into it (esp in context) -- theres missing signs, the whole "back off" thing isnt visible in posts prior. theres townie reasoning

wrt his scumreads and people's play

, but with daytalk, thats less meaningful because you can always go "hey does this look like obvtown?" in the scum pt

kidamn has the /potential/ (if town) to be a pretty damned good pro-town force. i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning

for his coasty apathetic play

. if he is town, as the wagon fills up he needs to get on top of this game and start being the pro-town player he can be. pressurevoting is an appropriate way to lean on the slot

[Tenshii]

Votecount 1.11

[L-2] KidAmn - Rels, hapahauli, Hawk, doomfeathers, cassielle
[L-3] Hapahauli - outoforder, KidAmn, Creature
[L-6] doomfeathers - MooginSoosy
[L-6] Kop - Aubrey
[L-6] Rels - Kop

Not voting: havingfitz

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

Deadline Extension Warning: I may or may not give up to 2 days of deadline extension for late replacers and people on V/LA to catch up.

Prod: Outoforder has (expired on 2017-02-26 12:30:00) to post until being force-replaced.

v/LA till Monday morning. I'll post if I get the chance.

[outoforder]

I am up to p27. Unfortunately the finnish wifi in trains is shit and i hought i would have a bit time yesterday despite hoing to visit friends outside my home country.

I am gonna finish catching up tonight and then gollow up on haps and i also got some questions for cassielle.

For now UNVOTE: hapahauli

[cassielle]

i look forward to your questions ooo

and dont think i forgot about you BV, im waiting on you as well

[Creature]

Not townreading KidAmn at all, though, I'm not sure if the wagon composition on him is good.

[Creature]

BlackVoid's already late.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, so finished the first seven pages. I'm free all day today so should be catching up soon.

I've got three fairly solid townreads: Outoforder, Kidamn, and Rels. Not sure how the Kidamn wagon sprung up but from what I read I don't support it so please don't lynch until I catch up and share thoughts.

I've ambivalent on Hapahauli so need to catch up to figure out if I want to vote him.

[BlackVoid]

@Hap, is there a reason your play here is different from the play I've seen from you in the Mini we played together? There and in Dierfire's Mini Normal, you replaced in, made a case on a single player and pushed the lynch through. Here, you seem to have a wider focus on a lot of different players. I think part of that could be playing from the beginning and being under pressure but it would help if you could link to a towngame where you played similarly here or at TL.

Also, if you keep track of stats, how often do you survive as scum and have you ever been lynched D1 as scum?

[hapahauli]

@Hap, is there a reason your play here is different from the play I've seen from you in the Mini we played together? There and in Dierfire's Mini Normal, you replaced in, made a case on a single player and pushed the lynch through. Here, you seem to have a wider focus on a lot of different players. I think part of that could be playing from the beginning and being under pressure but it would help if you could link to a towngame where you played similarly here or at TL.

Also, if you keep track of stats, how often do you survive as scum and have you ever been lynched D1 as scum?

These aren't similar situations. As a replacement, you have a ton of information to work with. I can make strong conclusions on a day or more of play, and push a lynch through. When you're involved in a game from early Day 1, you have less information, so you'll naturally be changing your mind a lot more, especially early.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/3 ... a-database
You can Ctrl+F for "hapahauli" and scroll down. There are plenty of town games that you'll see me generally being all-over-the-place on Day 1. Day 1 for me is a way to find out information. I do this by pushing cases and establishing reads. I almost never lock onto a scumread early Day 1 in any of my town games.

I have 5 mafia games and 2 anti-town 3rd party games. The only mafia game I've ever survived to the end was in my first scum newbie game. I have been lynched Day 1 as mafia.

[BlackVoid]

Thanks! Also, what alignment do you prefer?

[cassielle]

BV when you get a bit further i want a spur-of-the-moment readslist
dont need to be up to date, just make a note of the page youre on and cover every slot. nullreads acceptable and this isnt going to be used to beat you with if you change your mind later -- i make no promises if i feel strongly your readslist is bad-faith tho

im thinking about what creature said about the kidamn wagon composition and im getting the same vibe, gonna jump off
UNVOTE:
i WILL jump back on wagon if the opportunity presents itself, but i think creature spotted something important and im watching for signs of it
this isnt resistance, some one can feel free to jump on, just dont go past L-2 at least until kidamn posts

[KidAmn]

kidamn has gone from extremely invested to completely uninvested very quickly with no "warning signs" popping up. this feels like scum trying to redirect, to me. it doesnt feel like townie apathy, as i look into it (esp in context) -- theres missing signs, the whole "back off" thing isnt visible in posts prior. theres townie reasoning wrt his scumreads and people's play, but with daytalk, thats less meaningful because you can always go "hey does this look like obvtown?" in the scum pt

kidamn has the /potential/ (if town) to be a pretty damned good pro-town force. i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning for his coasty apathetic play. if he is town, as the wagon fills up he needs to get on top of this game and start being the pro-town player he can be. pressurevoting is an appropriate way to lean on the slot

kidamn's apathy appears (AFAICT) to stem from not being able to push a single scumread -- when there are 3 scum in the game -- without resistance from two other slots interfering
there are very rare cases where you can benefit from digging your heels in and going full lockdown on who you want to deal with -- this isnt one of those cases. due to the setup, any scumlynch is a good scumlynch here (they're all goons), and while you can have /preferences/ you should be willing and able to point at and push a diff scumread if your preferred wagon stalls.
but kidamn is letting two players destroy his case instead of trying to push outside of their circle (and thereby speak to a large group of people who do agree with him)

this says to me that kidamn wants to ml a pro-town player early while the paranoia is rampant and before town can swing associatives, VCA and NKA into play
or that kidamn wants to bus a scum player early and fast for towncred and is feeling nervous/frustrated that townies are derailing that wagon
...or that kidamn is town who doesnt realize how anti-town hes acting -- so heres a wakeup call: dont hit the snooze button, get the hell up

in general i think that kidamn has more of a chance to save himself from the d1 lynch than hapa, due to reading like frustrated town in large part -- pressure and reiterating that i think kidamn can pull himself out of this hole hammers in the idea that he needs to bring his town game to the table ASAP. this is ultimately pro-town because hes an active player who can infodump with the best of them, and i dont think he can smoothly recover from the obvious scumplay if he is actually scum
but if he doesnt step up to the plate, we can only assume that, at best, hes town actively working against his wincon, and at worst, hes scum who took the demotivated townie charade too far

Above post edited with cass own EBWOP

hi BV

yeah i would /love/ to lynch kidamn, esp because i tried to engage with him and got totally 100% ignored
but that apathy is townish to me.

lets watch BV for now, i think their play will be highly instructive

Okay, first off "no warning signs":

Ugh when someone wants me to describe "impressions"

Okay, they aren't very serious, but when I vote in RVS, I vote whom I have a feeling that's most likely scum.

...I... you... what?

This whole clusterfuck between Ooo, Hapa and creature a) makes no sense and b) is only going to confuse everyone but you three who know each other from "parts unknown". It's not productive in the slightest IMO.

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

Also holy crap responding to all these walls of text is literal dicks on a phone.

Not gonna lie my enthusiasm for this game has been fucking tanked by the amount of other games and off-site games and "oh-ho-ho I know what he does because of playing on another site and here is a wall of text about it".

How much clearer would you like me to spell out my distaste for the playstyle of the majority of this day?

2nd - it's interesting that in these 2 posts your first instinct was to say my apathy didn't "feel" town, then you walk back and forward on that throughout - you say "i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning" which I could almost think is a slip; then it's "[Kid] wants to ml a pro-town player early while the paranoia is rampant and before town can swing associatives, VCA and NKA into play, or that kidamn wants to bus a scum player early and fast for towncred and is feeling nervous/frustrated that townies are derailing that wagon" and then at the end we're back to "nah you can totally save yourself from the lynch way better than hapa" (I should fucking hope so). But yeah, this whole post feels really odd and swingy and unwilling to commit either way on me. Not to mention the whole "I would love to lynch Kid but his apathy feels townish to me" thing.

3rd - yes, I've been "tunnelling" or however you want to refer to it on Hapa. He's my strongest scumread, the fuck else do you expect. You want me to look at other people? Look at the people bouncing onto my wagon as soon as someone dropped a pressure vote on me. A wagon that has conveniently outpaced Hapa's wagon, despite the people on mine complaining about how long Hapa's wagon is taking (Creature). Look at the first vote on me, from Rels, whose case on me extends to thinking I'm stretching for pointing out Hapa's hypocrisy in his case on me and quoting a bunch of things without offering any actual commentary (and getting a free pass on this because his post count is really high without saying anything)

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

[Creature]

KidAmn is town btw

[Creature]

PoE still indicates hapahauli + Hawk + BlackVoid (with Kop as an alternative) scumteam.

[BlackVoid]

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

@Creature - what happened to your read on Fitz? Right now, the people I'm most concerned about are Fitz, Hap, and Hawk (I'm just at the point where I saw Hawk's replace in post and scumread on Doomfeathers at the end of page fourteen).

Current townreads are OutofOrder, KidAmn, doomfeathers and Creature. Rels faded out a bit so not as strong there.

[BlackVoid]

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

[Hawk]

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Meta NAI I thought it was scummy then and I think it's scummy now? That's like saying I flipped this coin it landed heads 3 times in a row when I flipped it with my right hand this time when I flip it with my right hand it will land heads. Correlation does not imply causation. Just because he was town before when he played like that doesn't mean he's town now. As similar just because when I read him that way before doesn't mean I'm wrong about it now.

How is it at worst Null? If someone recognizes a habit or meta of themselves and applies it to all there games it becomes NAI. Which is why it doesn't matter if he was town prior it was a different game. I have no idea if he's Town or Scum here, but I think moving sporadically can be scummy and this game I felt it wasn't organic movement but felt like movement for movements sake.

[BlackVoid]

I didn't say that you should read Doom's vote-hopping as town. But if he did it before as town, that means it's not a scumtell and you should be using other tools to read him. But you used that as a reason to scumread him.

[BlackVoid]

It's hard to believe that you used a scumtell on someone, saw that it was wrong and then used the same tell on the same person again. I didn't imply that you should be reading him as town now because he did it before as town (that's what your response to me sounded like). I'm saying it's null but you voting him in your replace in post means you thought it was actively scummy.