Open 706: C9++

[CheekyTeeky]

I'll go there if it's viable. We'll need OGML and Joda to join us - what are you guys thinking about schism?

[Almost Chara]

hello, Chara's back. i've been in the PT but not here.
honestly not getting the resistance to the Joda lynch. the post from Katyusha Cheeky quoted is not particularly scummy, but what is one going to do? reactions to it are telling, however.
it's unbearably late, so this post does not contain any real information. feel free to make a snarky comment of some fashion. :>
~Chara

[OhGodMyLife]

Prod dodge!

Hey y'all sorry I missed my chance the other night to post, took the bus to Madrid last night and the hostel wifi was hot garbage but I'm checking into my Airbnb today so I'll be here for real real shortly.

[OhGodMyLife]

OK to start with I do need to go back and respond to Cheeky. Sorry for missing this the first time around. It's been tough to keep track of everything when most of the activity is happening in the middle of the night for me, then the day ended and we have two scum flips and I forgot to come back around to it.

A so-called information lynch is really bad for town when we're possibly one lynch away from being in LyLo. And why does Cheeky need to hedge with the line about lynching for information when in 503 she says "something in my gut is screaming she's scum"?

I'm not sure if you misunderstood my posts. I was lynching a scum read and preferably one that gives us the most information as an added bonus. I didn't say I wanted to lynch them purely for information. I'm not sure how that is AI of scum.

You call it hedging I call it transparency. I have nothing but gut to go on with Jodaqx and I've made it pretty clear I want more to solidify a read there. It's kind of frustrating that you ignore all my other content to find a couple of iffy statements that aren't really AI one way or another. Your scum hunting seems shallow.

I don't think I did misunderstand. Granted you weren't then and aren't now my top scum read, but I was asked to elaborate on why I thought your jump onto Joda at the time was scummy and I tried to verbalize it as best I could. I'll be the first to admit that a gut read can be perfectly valid. I won't concede however that what you call transparency is not alignment indicative. It's the kind of thing scum say before they get town lynched. You were verbalizing your suspicion of Joda, but you weren't voting there until AC and then Dave did so. So it looked to me like you saw momentum swinging that way and thought it would get pushed through to a lynch quickly because of the impending deadline, and you wanted something to fall back on when she flipped town.

I am still town reading Jodaxq.

Can you elaborate on this so I can see your perspective? If you're scumreading Katyusha then why aren't you voting her?

Basically, aside from the fact that I was already reading her as town before Cy flipped scum, it's what I said in 731, but I'll try to expand on that. The basis of Joda's big push against Cy during day two was what I call "active lurking," that is posting plenty to look busy but never actually doing anything. This is a very valid scumtell, but it is exactly the kind of thing that a scumpartner simply ignores, especially when the rest of the town is letting it slide. Some people were even giving Cy town cred for the apparent effort he was putting in. So as I see it, there is no chance that hypothetical Joda-scum blows up Cy's spot like that, ergo Joda is town.
As for why I'm not voting Kat, it's because I'm in no rush to lynch today. We have over a week, and if we lynch wrong we're in a LyLo situation. Now SA has claimed doc since my last post, which eliminates him from suspicion, so I feel pretty confident that we have this game won because (from my perspective) scum has to be between Kat and yourself, and we have two lynches. But I'm still waiting to vote because there's no point wasting discussion time, and there is plenty of discussion ongoing.

Speaking of SA's claim, I'm glad it came out today and not tomorrow because of the counterclaim danger. Scum can't counterclaim today without automatically losing. The tradeoff is that if scum hadn't already figured it out there was a chance they would have killed me tonight instead of him, but I hope that we can capitalize on his claim by cornering the scum today. As I just said I believe that one of Kat and Cheeky must be scum. On that note, I would really like everyone to look over my reasoning for my Joda townread and either refute it in a way that convinces me or get their votes off of her.

In regards to the debate about the nightkills from night one, I'm a little confused why we're eliminating Dave shooting Fitz from the list of possibilities. Couldn't the mafia (or Fitz for that matter) have killed Tone simply because Tone was being read as cleared town due to modposts? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it was SA who posited that the modpost meant Tone was clear, and we now know SA is not mafia, so that could easily have spooked mafia into shooting Tone.

Sure you do. You know why? It looks town. And in reality it does nothing to hurt you as scum. The IC has no real power aside from being confirmed. So it's low risk, high reward. Although I'd argue schism buddied you more than opposed you overall.

I just want to QFT this point.

Before this becomes an unbearably long wall I'm going to end this post here and come back with another post shortly diving into a double ISO of Elmo and Cy.

TL;DR - Joda is not scum. Convince me I'm wrong or get off that vote before we end up in a coinflip situation tomorrow. Scum is between Kat and Cheeky. I intend to vote Kat in due time.

[CheekyTeeky]

Yeah I'm not scum, I'd rather you put some effort into explaining your scum read on me that hasn't already been refuted i.e. create a wagon on me and actually try to get your push through instead of asking for a Town Case on Joda and wasting our time. If you really cared about defending a townread you could have refuted said points for them being a scumread, instead this makes me think you are WhiteKnighting Joda. Your entire post is wishywashy waffling about how Joda is obv. town to you and I'm scum with no reason or progression based on other content being produced since your last push on my slot.

I dislike that you lurked after being TR'd Day 2 and now you come back waffling about how we have plenty of time for discussion but you don't add to it in any way. Like I TR'd your slot when Chip was in it but now I think you could have been scum all along. Since we're split on Joda and Schism maybe it's OGML.

I've been waiting to see more from him because the way activity and effort changed when the pressure was off pinged me. I'm just struggling with him SRing both Elmo and Cy. It could be WIFOM distancing I just don't know. I think this slot needs to be reevaluated because conf biased me doesn't believe a SR on my slot from town for a second.

UNVOTE: Jodaxq

[CheekyTeeky]

Lol I love how arrogant my last statement sounds :S

[OhGodMyLife]

Rather than fill the thread with more quote blocks I'll use post links for this.

55 - Elmo jumps on Jodaxq for self-voting in RVS, and then stays on that vote for a long, long time. Not until she hammered assemble.
60 - Cy plays devil's advocate against Elmo's Joda vote, but without throwing any shade on his partner Elmo for it
154 - Instead Cy decides to pressure Fitz for voting Joda. It's almost a shame Dave shot him because I was gonna have a great case against Cy today.
214 - Elmo pushes a townread on Schism, in the midst of AC giving Schism a major scumread (indeed, in 218 AC calls the same post Elmo just pushed as obv town a scum claim). One of the few active measures Elmo took all game.
375 - Without giving an opinion one way or the other about Schism, Cy simply wonders what happened to Schism self-voting to death.

So to wrap up day one, we have Elmo leaving her vote on Joda all day long due to a self-vote in RVS, and Cy taking the opposite side of the argument. This is yet further evidence of town Joda. If the lynch gets pushed through, Elmo was the first one on and Cy is in the position to start pushing other Joda voters on day two. We also have Elmo propping up Schism in the middle of Schism getting pushed hard by the innocent child, while Cy ignores the whole situation. Neither Elmo nor Cy ever once mentioned voyc.

403 - Cheeky has joined the wagon on Elmo. Elmo is extremely snarky about it.
407 and 410 - Cheeky pushes back at Elmo, Elmo tries to brush her off but never so much as gives the appearance of trying to actually read Cheeky.
427 - Cy throws an FoS at Cheeky, but does not vote. Cy is at this point not voting anyone.
428 - Cy argues that scum killed Tone, which tbh I totally forgot about. Given this I think it's safe to say scum did not kill Tone, and we can ignore the bit in my previous post where I hypothesize they might have. Cy is most likely trying to steer town away from concluding mafia killed NSG.
476 and 477 - OK, so Joda has been on top of Cy since 459. His response to this is an attempt to buddy up to Joda with a townread. Have I mentioned yet how clear it is that Jodaxq is town?
487 and 551 - Out of nowhere Elmo has a scumread on Chip, tries to throw cold water on anyone townreading Chip's replace out, and throws shade at Cheeky for buddying up to people. She still doesn't place a vote. In fact, I don't think Elmo or Cy ever voted anyone on day two aside from Elmo self-hammering.
589 - Cy reiterates a townread on Joda as she is run up to L-2. Again it appears that he is positioning himself to capitalize on a Joda mislynch the following day.
682 - Nope I was wrong, Elmo finally votes for Cheeky. They're mutually scumreading each other, but Elmo rightly points out that Cheeky is keeping her vote elsewhere.

Day two, Cy's actions continue to support my town read on Joda, Cheeky/Cy/Elmo have a weird series of interactions that end up looking a lot like distancing (especially 682 when Elmo is on the cusp of death), and Schism ends up being the one these two both ignore for the entire day. I believe that Cy must have had an ulterior motive in trying to convince town that Tone was the mafia kill. The reason to do this is because the actual mafia kill would be damning for a scumpartner. Whose death is the most damning? I'd say that would be NSG, who crumbed a possible investigation of Schism (now Kat).

[OhGodMyLife]

Yeah I'm not scum, I'd rather you put some effort into explaining your scum read on me that hasn't already been refuted i.e. create a wagon on me and actually try to get your push through instead of asking for a Town Case on Joda and wasting our time. If you really cared about defending a townread you could have refuted said points for them being a scumread, instead this makes me think you are WhiteKnighting Joda. Your entire post is wishywashy waffling about how Joda is obv. town to you and I'm scum with no reason or progression based on other content being produced since your last push on my slot.

I dislike that you lurked after being TR'd Day 2 and now you come back waffling about how we have plenty of time for discussion but you don't add to it in any way. Like I TR'd your slot when Chip was in it but now I think you could have been scum all along. Since we're split on Joda and Schism maybe it's OGML.

I've been waiting to see more from him because the way activity and effort changed when the pressure was off pinged me. I'm just struggling with him SRing both Elmo and Cy. It could be WIFOM distancing I just don't know. I think this slot needs to be reevaluated because conf biased me doesn't believe a SR on my slot from town for a second.

UNVOTE: Jodaxq

Why should I push a wagon on you when you're not even my biggest scumread? But since you were looking for evidence not based on your most recent posts, see my most recent post. I also don't see it as a waste of time to stop a lynch on town when we're one day away from LyLo. Far from it.

I disagree that I am not adding to the discussion. I'll give you a break on this one since you posted as I was busy writing my next post, but I'm not even sure where to begin with you suggesting that it could be me because people are split between Joda and Schism/Kat. Like, what?

[Almost Chara]

@Cheeky: I had always thought Schism was the Doctor (his comment about lynching himself and letting the IC die lead me to it). That's why I was so opposed to his lynch.

HOWEVER, if that slot was Scum, why woud Kat go on and claim VT before anyone else even weighs in? That denies her from CC'ing tomorrow if others didn't like the idea and nobody claimed today.

So, unless you thing Kat acted w/o thinking it over I still say that slot is Town.

So. it's Joda/OGML as you say.

[Katyusha]

HURT: schism

so why are people actually scumreading schism? i'm not sure i understand the reasons.

i'd also like to restate at this point that fitz is scum. his confidence in his jodax vote reads as completely fake, and the awkwardness in response of 141 along with the strange "opinion" argument makes me pretty confident in this.
VOTE: havingfitz

fwiw it's worth i dont actually think the intention of the hurt tag was a crumb considering these two posts in sequence

also scum have a roleblocker, if the point was to silence nsg's investigation so it's not damning my slot they'd want to roleblock it. if nsg was killed for being a pr it probably wasnt because she was getting a guilty, she probably had scum in her scumreads

Also I thought other people claimed already and that my slot was the only unclaimed one?

[Katyusha]

ok so if sleepless is the doc and there's no cc it's just joda

[Sleepless Assassin]

@Cheeky: I had always thought Schism was the Doctor (his comment about lynching himself and letting the IC die lead me to it). That's why I was so opposed to his lynch.

HOWEVER, if that slot was Scum, why woud Kat go on and claim VT before anyone else even weighs in? That denies her from CC'ing tomorrow if others didn't like the idea and nobody claimed today.

So, unless you thing Kat acted w/o thinking it over I still say that slot is Town.

So. it's Joda/OGML as you say.

Could be kat had already decided claiming a power role was too risky/dangerous/scary/whatever and wanted to get claims going because scum naturally want to know who the power roles. I mean I'm not saying that's for sure what happened, just that there are reasons for either alignment to do that.

[Katyusha]

UNVOTE: Sleepless Assassin

I think I'm still on him

sleepless what towncred am i gaining from shitposting btw

i'm looking over omgl's case on for joda right now and some of the points are thoughts i had when i thought it was SA over joda so it's kind of annoying to reevaluate for a third time

pedit: i mean i would claim vt as scum here personally yes

[Katyusha]

poe says it's joda but like i actually cant really disagree with ogml's case

sorry i genuinely want to be useful here and i'd probably be more clearly town if we lynched cy instead of vigged him but still

[Katyusha]

at this rate i'd be confident self hammering just to flip as often as i've seen that throw games

i'm positive that elmo never self votes here if ogml is scum and cheeky is literally one of the most obvious town i've played with thus far

sleepless being the doc means it's just joda

[Katyusha]

VOTE: joda

dont have anything else to add, if i'm l-1 i will probably self once everyone says theyre fine ending the day

[Katyusha]

Cy made some townie posts early and has only made really empty posts since. The holidays and stuff have certainly screwed with this game, but I'll be interested to see if he posts with actual content today.

Don't think Elmo's post really means anything. I had the same thought when I got the PM.

I didn't notice before that Dave voted for ToneReader early just as a way to show disapproval of the gimmick and then never moved his vote. That's certainly interesting. Why did you choose to avoid both wagons, Dave? Why did you not move your vote off of Tone?

If we're looking at the Assemble wagon then I think Sleepless and Chip are the ones to look at first. In my experience hammers like that usually come from town.

this trajectory kind of feels like it makes sense coming from a partner actually - it stood out at least while i was giving joda's iso a last look

413/414 are both giving flipped scum botd - especially considering with elmo there was more to cheeky's vote at the time than just the tmi slip. obviously town can do this too, but considering that her next posts are shifting attention away from scum it seems intended more to put pressure on town

also the more i think about it the more i think cy and elmo reacting to joda's self vote differently can just be attributed to them wanting to react naturally or deliberately choosing to go in separate ways

[Sleepless Assassin]

UNVOTE: Sleepless Assassin

I think I'm still on him

sleepless what towncred am i gaining from shitposting btw

Shit posting? When was that? Twilight?

[Katyusha]

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Since I thought twilight was imminent I posted this and left since I expected to get vigged and then i’d be able to brag about having a 1 post iso that’s a lolhammer

When that didn’t work out I looked into posting content but I was expecting the night to start at some point

[Sleepless Assassin]

Let me see if I'm following you here. I said it didn't seem like that post came from a town mindset and your defense is you were shit posting to troll the game or...? I'm confused.

[Sleepless Assassin]

And to answer how that could be looking for town cred... You made a big show out of voting scum who was getting lynched anyway. Seems obvious to me.

[Jodaxq]

Well Sleepless is clearly the Doc with no CC so
UNVOTE:

[Jodaxq]

at this rate i'd be confident self hammering just to flip as often as i've seen that throw games

What are you even saying here?

[Jodaxq]

Why is everyone so sure Cheeky is town? I don't like Katyusha's reason

[Katyusha]

Let me see if I'm following you here. I said it didn't seem like that post came from a town mindset and your defense is you were shit posting to troll the game or...? I'm confused.

the post shouldnt be seen as AI because i obviously would not get towncred for putting someone 1 vote beyond hammering

at this rate i'd be confident self hammering just to flip as often as i've seen that throw games

What are you even saying here?

i've lost games due to townies self voting/hammering at this stage and have watched other games were it basically cost the game but i really dont see any other possibility where ogml or cheeky are scum