Open 705: Polygamist - Game Over

Toranaga
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Post Post #1075  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:13 am

In post 1074, Toranaga wrote:gg everyone

gj village

thank you so much for ending this game already

good to know I eventually figured out it wasn't the sky hydra, but the redflavour hydra who was wolfing with cy

thanks llama for modding!

set fire into this setup, it's not fun at all

lol @ people trying

mathdino you have my respect

hydra = lover pair

it's late head doesn't work

Toranaga
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Post Post #1076  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:14 am

In post 950, Toranaga wrote:it's cy;lalendra with redflavor;hyung

redflavor just made it painfully obvious

toraGOAT

not that this game mattered

Mathdino
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Post Post #1077  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:18 am

Tora had the best reads for sure. I often interpret overly aggressive/nonsensical behaviour toward me as town, unfortunately.

I'd like to think we actually would still have been able to win in LyLo had we lynched like Kop/momo or something. Red/hyung being scum would've helped a LOT (meant we could still have majority).

Mathdino
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Post Post #1078  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:20 am

In post 433, hyung wrote:If you're asking about the person I replaced, all they said was that they were gonna hit a lot of posts but I'm guessing that never happened. Not claiming my Lover or their stuff yet though.

I'll be back later, at work right now and just wanted to check in.

I really should've been scumreading this by my own logic, tbh. Made me feel weird but I was compelled to go easy on him (and I was townreading Red).

hyung's lack of answer for "What did your lover post" was also a major issue. But "not claiming my lover yet" is all sorts of nope.

DiamondSentinel
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Post Post #1079  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:22 am

In post 1073, Mathdino wrote:Haha, NSG, any thoughts you had over the course of it?

Diamond I'm interested to hear the other flaws you think it has.

In particular I want to address the particularly low town winrate, and how town only seems to win when scum are straight up not present or are bad. The last 2 town wins had AWOL scum IIRC (early mastina and someone else).

Let's see.

  • As I stated above, it's essentially a micro game. 4 VT and 2 goon lovers. The only thing is that it just doesn't work like a micro. The mandatory "hydras" muddle up everything. No fun there.
  • Mathematically solving the game with randomness. Yawn.
  • The lack of communication between lovers and goons keeps much planning at all from happening, especially since, at most, once the game starts, you get a single night phase to talk things over.
  • Back to it being a micro game, if you actually try to scumhunt the game, any pair that has at least 1 member lurking (or shitposting in sheep's case) becomes comparatively impossible to read.
  • Game can be won on D1. Most of the time must be won D1, except dragged over a 14-21 day period. Ick.

Those are the main ones.
“Why was I chosen?'
'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”

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Mathdino
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Post Post #1080  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:26 am

I heavily object to sheep/Tora being impossible to read. I didn't appreciate his style, but there were methods by which I was able to townread them both.

But yeah, 6p games are shit if activity/commitment expectations aren't met/enforced. It's hard for me to even count this as a win because

A. We basically won because of sheep's random vote. I literally would not have pushed cy if not for that.
B. I sheeped sheep in the first place because of a 70% breaking strategy, which is lame.
C. This game was utterly ruined by half the players not even being here, which was partially due to me filling up the thread with the strategy that won us the game in the end anyway.

I can definitely see why Lalendra and cy gave up.

bonch
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Post Post #1081  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:43 am

gg

RedFlavor
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Post Post #1082  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:53 am

In post 1076, Toranaga wrote:
In post 950, Toranaga wrote:it's cy;lalendra with redflavor;hyung

redflavor just made it painfully obvious

toraGOAT

not that this game mattered

Yeah



Well played everyone

momo
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Post Post #1083  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:15 am

Sorry everyone for my inactivity...this setup got zero passion for me...the moment I realized how hopelessly plain it was and how the only “interesting” mechanic meant the game ending in 2 days, I just got annoyed with the game...Feel bad for scum because the setup is terribly broken...mathdino, that was amazing...good job town
Transcend-BUT READING MOMO I FEEL LIKE HE IS THE PLAYER THAT IF HE GOT PRESSURED AS TOWN HE WULD BE LIKE FUCK YALL AND MOVE ON WITH WHATEVER ELSE HE WAS DOING
Boonskies- Like, Momo is the most mislynchable player on all of mafiascum right now. I'm not day 1 lynching him.
KidAmn-Momo is a troll, which is completely NAI
YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME--¯\_(ツ)_/¯ OH WELL

Lalendra
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Post Post #1084  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:35 am

Ugh, I was so excited to finally roll something other than VT and I ended up with a completely unwinnable game lol

sheepsaysmeep
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Post Post #1085  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:04 pm

oh this ended
god makes mistakes; some of you are proof

open 713 is in signups
gtkas

momo
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Post Post #1086  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:15 pm

@mod...you are the open list mod...pls make sure that this isn’t or doesn’t become an approved open setup....Def not balanced and def not a setup I would play again...not because of you though -_-
Transcend-BUT READING MOMO I FEEL LIKE HE IS THE PLAYER THAT IF HE GOT PRESSURED AS TOWN HE WULD BE LIKE FUCK YALL AND MOVE ON WITH WHATEVER ELSE HE WAS DOING
Boonskies- Like, Momo is the most mislynchable player on all of mafiascum right now. I'm not day 1 lynching him.
KidAmn-Momo is a troll, which is completely NAI
YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME--¯\_(ツ)_/¯ OH WELL

Mathdino
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Post Post #1087  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:21 pm

In post 1086, momo wrote:@mod...you are the open list mod...pls make sure that this isn’t or doesn’t become an approved open setup....Def not balanced and def not a setup I would play again...not because of you though -_-

I second this, although one detail is that I think the long deadline served to depress us a bit.

The ironic thing is that it's super scumsided if people lynch on scumreads, but it's super townsided if you just play Economics Wonderland.

momo
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Post Post #1088  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:18 pm

In post 1087, Mathdino wrote:
In post 1086, momo wrote:@mod...you are the open list mod...pls make sure that this isn’t or doesn’t become an approved open setup....Def not balanced and def not a setup I would play again...not because of you though -_-

I second this, although one detail is that I think the long deadline served to depress us a bit.

The ironic thing is that it's super scumsided if people lynch on scumreads, but it's super townsided if you just play Economics Wonderland.

Considering that the setup got broken though...ppl will know
Transcend-BUT READING MOMO I FEEL LIKE HE IS THE PLAYER THAT IF HE GOT PRESSURED AS TOWN HE WULD BE LIKE FUCK YALL AND MOVE ON WITH WHATEVER ELSE HE WAS DOING
Boonskies- Like, Momo is the most mislynchable player on all of mafiascum right now. I'm not day 1 lynching him.
KidAmn-Momo is a troll, which is completely NAI
YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME--¯\_(ツ)_/¯ OH WELL

Mathdino
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Post Post #1089  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:26 pm

I would also point out that while you can outlaw randomness and the dice tag all you want, you can't outlaw arbitrariness.

Like I said earlier, you can have someone "roll the dice" a bunch of ways by using unpredictable future events:

- The 100,000s digit of the US national debt at 12:00:00 EST tomorrow.
- The units digit of the seconds on the timestamp of Donald Trump's next tweet.
- The units digit of the seconds on the next GD post (not by any players in the game).
- Just pick basically any figure in the stock market and use the units digit
- The units digit of the solution to the next Math Problem of the Day/Week on some random website.
etc.

Randomness shall prevail.

Kingmaker strategy ruins it harder because it's really not hard to just spot one townie.

northsidegal
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Post Post #1090  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:36 pm

wouldn't those count as "provable randomness"?

Mathdino
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Post Post #1091  (ISO)  » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:38 pm

I mean randomness isn't against site rules or game rules. And most of them aren't random, just arbitrary.

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Post Post #1092  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 pm

This setup isn't in the "approved open" lineup, and with random play only allowing it to hit around a 60% win rate, its not broken enough like some setups in the past have been to get them fully pulled from being ran.

I think the biggest interesting point about this game is do players go along with random lynching for the first day, and if that happens what goes down on the second day? If Diamond got lynched day one, I'm not sure town would have won this game.

Using the "spot one town" is even a dangerous argument if you allow them to control the lynch, because you are not only going to need to get the rest of the town to back it, but have them pick right once. This is just an interest case study setup where the "optimal" type play goes against all gut instincts of players, especially if you are decided to be a lynch because you know its a mislynch.

All in all, I admit that its not a great setup and it has an optimization path, but its still a very interesting setup to see through. Its also one I really think town has to win day one or they probably lose.
A child believes a lie because they know no better
A grown adult sees the lie because it fails to line up with experience
In this way a child's story can be so many different experiences
With enough subtext, a thing made for a child becomes an entirely different world to an adult.

Mathdino
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Post Post #1093  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:47 pm

Understand that I'm not trying to refute anything you're saying, because it's all technically correct, just responding.

1. It's not that it's broken. It's that robots are literally better at playing this setup than humans are. That's what's concerning. When you have to do something completely unfun in order to get the best shot at winning, it's not fun for:
A. The person being lynched (cy/Lalendra) because they were just fucked by no fault of their own
B. The people playing to win, who, if they are to play their wincon to the best of their ability, must suck the fun out of the game (me)
C. The people playing to have fun, who, in NOT wanting to random lynch, are decreasing town's ability to win (Sky/Diamond/Mathblade)
D. The people who don't give a shit about that theory discussion (Kop/momo/Red/hyung) or are just waiting for something to happen after optimal strategy is discovered (sheep/Tora)

2. I think Diamond/Sky would only have been lynched if they showed themselves completely unwilling to lynch cy. Had they gotten lynched, I think the Math/Math/sheep/Tora bloc would've instantly gone back to cy, and then it would've been a coin flip for Kop/momo. Maybe we could've pulled it off, maybe not. Kop/momo weren't present enough for me to make that guess.

3. "Spot one town" has a 75% chance of working if you just pick a random person to be the token townie. This leads to expected 60% winrate (accounting for both the scenario in which they're town and in which they're scum). Since towns are generally good at townhunting once, I would argue it's higher, leading to a slightly >60% winrate.

4. Maybe. I probably agree with you on the D1 thing based on previous games. I think this is the first time this setup was run where someone legitimately suggested and pulled off the arbitrary lynch strat. It was a win, but at the cost of being interesting to play, I think.

Also I sigged cytheflyguy's comment :P

momo
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Post Post #1094  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:50 pm

In post 1093, Mathdino wrote:Also I sigged cytheflyguy's comment

that is the perfect quote for your signature considering your mathy meta
Transcend-BUT READING MOMO I FEEL LIKE HE IS THE PLAYER THAT IF HE GOT PRESSURED AS TOWN HE WULD BE LIKE FUCK YALL AND MOVE ON WITH WHATEVER ELSE HE WAS DOING
Boonskies- Like, Momo is the most mislynchable player on all of mafiascum right now. I'm not day 1 lynching him.
KidAmn-Momo is a troll, which is completely NAI
YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME--¯\_(ツ)_/¯ OH WELL

Mathdino
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Post Post #1095  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:52 pm

my thoughts exactly

in retrospect i'm struggling to see how he even came up with a comment like that xD

wtf does jack the ripper have to do with economics

the world may never know

bonch
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Post Post #1096  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:26 pm

Winning is fun.

DiamondSentinel
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Post Post #1097  (ISO)  » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 pm

What an astute observation
“Why was I chosen?'
'Such questions cannot be answered,' said Gandalf. 'You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”

I've got a GTKAS. Nobody posts much, but if you've got questions, i'm always happy to answer them!

momo
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Post Post #1098  (ISO)  » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:25 am

In post 1081, bonch wrote:gg

In post 1096, bonch wrote:Winning is fun.

Bonch’s Only posts lol
Transcend-BUT READING MOMO I FEEL LIKE HE IS THE PLAYER THAT IF HE GOT PRESSURED AS TOWN HE WULD BE LIKE FUCK YALL AND MOVE ON WITH WHATEVER ELSE HE WAS DOING
Boonskies- Like, Momo is the most mislynchable player on all of mafiascum right now. I'm not day 1 lynching him.
KidAmn-Momo is a troll, which is completely NAI
YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME--¯\_(ツ)_/¯ OH WELL

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Post Post #1099  (ISO)  » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:04 am

In post 1094, momo wrote:
In post 1093, Mathdino wrote:Also I sigged cytheflyguy's comment

that is the perfect quote for your signature considering your mathy meta


You mean dino has my meta???

[joke]
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade

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