Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[Sando]

I'm off for the next ~24 hours or so. Please note, Taly; 24 hours, not 48.

[Aneninen]

I'm sorry for not doing shyt. I'll try to change it today.

I've checked a thing or two from mobile and Taly appears to be scum.

[havingfitz]

V/la till Monday morning.

[Kopherald]

Seems I need to prod dodge.

I'm looking through Ausuka's ISO... Not really liking what I'm seeing. Looking lots at just pure activity levels for TGP yesterday. Nothing really since that point, though. Plus, I think I see some distancing tried from Jay during Day 1 a few times. Day 2 is not moving so fast, so I'm voting my hot read here.

VOTE: Ausuka

-Brass

[Ausuka]

that's actually quite possibly the worst vote I've seen this game

[Ausuka]

Are people voting Jimmy because he hammered without giving a warning? I don't think that's scummy if so. I had already given intent; all scum!Jimmy does there is draw attention to himself.

To me Taly is just obvtowning. I think there's at least one scum in {profii, Sando} and more than anything I'm thinking profii just doesn't flip town here.

can you explain why Taly might have gone from scum reading A50 to not doing so over the course of the flip into day 2 - admittedly I haven't been paying that much attention to this game during the enforced break?

I might have missed that.

Obviously if Taly wants to explain that, then great but I'm not sure how the A50 death clears them right now

There are so many reasons to change your read on someone. Anything could have caused Taly to change his vote. Maybe he thinks the claim is towny, maybe he reconsidered the read.

[JimmyUrineMoneyShot]

Creature too, but I don't remember his style much.

LOL. You must not have played with Creature then.

VOTE: Aneninen who had me fooled last game

She may be cute, but I don't think that's a very good reason to follow her.

VOTE: Jaydragon

Texcat's first 2 votes. Possible scum team?

[Ausuka]

Jimmy if you're gonna keep making posts like that I'm going to start scumreading you again.

[Ausuka]

shadpearl is town for this so

how?

Replacing Mathdino.
Please do not speculate on the events which led to it.

[JimmyUrineMoneyShot]

I'm after half of the playerlist. Or more. Why is everyone so interested in my Texcat-read?

Why shouldn't we be interested in a read you claim to have?

Too little effort I've taken, I know.

But right now I think any of these players could be scum: Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra, Doomfeathers, Texcat, Kopherald, Creature.

But you do have a point seeing as texcat wasn't the only player you'd scumread.

[Ausuka]

Jimmy what are your reads?

[Ausuka]

Now, let me know if you have any other solid reads. My scum pool is in profii/Anen/Shad/fitz/Jimmy/texcat/Creature (in no particular order), but I'm afraid I'm unable to come up with a couple who look more likely to be scum with Jay.

Anen, Creature and Shadpearl just never flip scum here. {Fitz, jimmy, texcat} are meh and need to start giving more content, sure. profii I think is real scum.

HOWEVER, and on an

individual level

, I think it more likely that there's scum in Anen/fitz, and here is why:

Anen, Creature AND Jay were all in a game with me and Dino recently (this one) where I was a VT and tried to bait the NK by pretending to be a PR (but I never claimed).

Jay -on the other hand- was also a VT who went too far as to actually claim and get CC'd (i.e. he drew the PR out to CC him).

If you notice the conversation between me and Jay after I claimed here I told him something like "this is how you do it as town.. you claim something that cannot be CC'd so as not to out the real PRs".

My theory thus is that the scum team is under the impression I'm fake claiming to get them to shoot me, and are hopeful they can shoot the other doctors so that they can lynch me without having to waste a bullet on me.

So, I would of course suspect Jay to have gone down that route and told his teammates, but seeing as he didn't see it in the first time (in the linked game) coupled with me actually outright claiming here rather than crumbing and hinting .. let's just say I'm not too confident it was Jay who directed the NK off me. I think it was something more perceptive, and that would be Annen (who was scum in that game) or Creature (who was town in that game).

???
I mean dude you literally said you could just be VT. This means nothing w/ Anen/Creature (fitz? idk who you're referring to, you use them both)

So, what's your read in Annen?

Anen is locktown for me. He's seemed genuine the whole game in my interactions with him, and 263 is never a scum/scum interaction IMO.

[Ausuka]

I mean, like, profii has been totally off the entire game tonally. Looking back 48 is very LAMIST and a lot of his ISO feels that way- fencesitty but a bit LAMIST at the same time. Especially the part where he votes FL "for pressure" and then unvotes to "be a team player" which is
But I think the main solid thing about him is his 791 where he sets up a vote for Taly because Taly changed his scumreads. Like no matter how you try and spin it, that's exactly what he's doing and I think it's really scummy.
I mean, look at this;

Taly, I'll be talking to you following the new math player or your ISO post on that slot

You've spent a lot of time talking about the 1v1 between Doom/A50 but have managed to temp. Retreat on math and obviously the doc claim for A50

Seems convienient - especially after all the stuff you posted about you being the mislynch- you'll have to forgive me if I said it comes across a bit LAMIST

He's scumreading Taly because Taly is no longer pushing on doom/A50 slots after he pushed them on d1. Like let's be real here- is that more likely to be a real thought coming from a townie, or is it more likely to be a scum fabrication of scumhunting?

Also I haven't done this yet, so;
VOTE: profii

[profii]

Are people voting Jimmy because he hammered without giving a warning? I don't think that's scummy if so. I had already given intent; all scum!Jimmy does there is draw attention to himself.

To me Taly is just obvtowning. I think there's at least one scum in {profii, Sando} and more than anything I'm thinking profii just doesn't flip town here.

can you explain why Taly might have gone from scum reading A50 to not doing so over the course of the flip into day 2 - admittedly I haven't been paying that much attention to this game during the enforced break?

I might have missed that.

Obviously if Taly wants to explain that, then great but I'm not sure how the A50 death clears them right now

There are so many reasons to change your read on someone. Anything could have caused Taly to change his vote. Maybe he thinks the claim is towny, maybe he reconsidered the read.

i know and everyone knows everything you just said in that post

What I'm actually asking is can you explain where you think talys motivations come from?


By saying there could be a number of reasons you are fence sitting, ironically

[Ausuka]

I'm not going to sit here and try to find falsehoods in Almost50's claim RIGHT after we've lost, both our backup doc, and 1 doc. Especially since BOTH the SK and scum are alive. It's only D2.

Furthermore, I already stated that I'm waiting for a Mathdino replacement... what's the point in pushing a slot without anybody there?

Plus, my top scumread for the majority of D1 flipped doc. Why is it odd to rethink my reads?

[Ausuka]

There's no reason to ask me that question- if you want the actual motivation just ask Taly.

[Almost50]

@Sando: Try to imagine a world in which I am Town and can miscount because I do my own VCs and do not follow the mod's.

OK, yes I may have been a doc-bait, although doctors are weak in this setup (weak as in

ineffective

, i.e. not the modifier "weak"), so yes the SK or the Tracker are of a higher priority.

What I am arguing though is that they indeed didn't believe me because I do fake claim/ceumb as town and I precisely did it in the most previous game with certain players who are also in this game and I even discussed it in this game with a flipped scum. I do fake claim/crumb as Town to protect the PRs and bait the NK, so those who know me and precisely those who played in that game could very well have very well come to that conclusion.

There's always the possibility I'\m left alive as a distraction too. As long as I'm alive many a player (like yourself) will never be focused enough on the real scum because you will always be suspicious of me. If someone is causing the town to be divided about their alignment and is taking up a big chunk of the discussion; scum don't want that slot dead anytime soon.

Now, what IS your read on Annen? (apologies if you had responded to that in the next page)

[Almost50]

Seems I need to prod dodge.

I'm looking through Ausuka's ISO... Not really liking what I'm seeing. Looking lots at just pure activity levels for TGP yesterday. Nothing really since that point, though. Plus, I think I see some distancing tried from Jay during Day 1 a few times. Day 2 is not moving so fast, so I'm voting my hot read here.

VOTE: Ausuka

-Brass

I'm at a point where I'd need a really convincing case to vote on someone I currently TR.

Do you have anything against an Annen wagon?

[Almost50]

Creature too, but I don't remember his style much.

LOL. You must not have played with Creature then.

VOTE: Aneninen who had me fooled last game

She may be cute, but I don't think that's a very good reason to follow her.

VOTE: Jaydragon

Texcat's first 2 votes. Possible scum team?

Could be, but I seem to have seen something that makes texcat less likely to be scum with both of them.

[texcat]

Jimmy what are your reads?

I'm not waiting for this, but wouldn't mind seeing Jimmy's reads.

VOTE: Jimmy
Hasn't done crap. Just tried to throw shade on me for my RVS votes. I don't know how much of the game he's read, but he has not commented on much at all. So why bring up my RVS votes?

[Taly]

I'll reply to a few, just because you seem to really, really not get it.

If you believe in Almost50's doc claim, then why are you creating ASSOCIATIVES between him and I? 799 - 805
Why are you painting him as scum? Why am I automatically in a scumduo with Almost50 if you believe his claim?

1) I do not believe the claim
2) I think it's bad form to lynch a doc claim when you don't have to
3) I didn't believe TGPs/Flavours claim
4) I was in a different situation than A50s claim, I wasn't voting him and I was out the door an hour after it happened, hence different situation, different response

How does ANY of that not make sense to you?

Because you're expecting me to follow your views, after I've specifically elaborated on the progression of my reads, and have been honest about how I feel about claims at this point.

You could elaborate on why you didn't believe either claim, though.

Please, do not make this personal. I'm trying to understand what went on from your last post in D1 to the hammer. Thanks for clarifying.

Bullshit, you

flat out lied

about the times and then intimated that I'm lying about being AFK, all to make a scumcase on me. You made it personal, not me.

I do not control your feelings. I simply made an observation on the timing of your posts and you proved me wrong, and I conceded to that.

What more are you looking to hear?

3) I'm referring to that whenever someone has pushed or voted you, it seems like you've written it off up until this point.

Please show me where I've said it about anyone's attack on me other than Creature's? Given I've just had both you and A50 vote me, shouldn't be too hard for you to find examples...

Taly, why are you attacking me for being away during the lynch and my single post soon after the claim not being anti-wagon enough for your liking, while A50 blatantly lying about the votecount in order to cast doubt on the claim and also actually lynching the doc, gets a pass? You're desperate enough to paint me as scummy you'll just make shit up about the timeline, but outright lies from A50 to secure the lynch on a doc claim you'll just ignore?

Why are you saying I'm attacking you? I'm simply stating my case.

Why is anyone suspecting you an attack on YOU? I told you why I felt that your OMGUS-paint of Creature's wagon is not conducive to game progression, and I've explained that.

It's hard to explain how Sando thinks although I can see where he's coming from and I've seen it too many times before (and have been guilty of it myself in a previous stage of my Mafia play). Suffice it to say he's going "one-dimensional", so to speak, and he also expects everyone else to do the same. It was either me or TGP, so if TGP flipped green you should NOT have revamped your whole read list, but should have rather simply turned to me. Y'know.. it's a binary thing for him.. 2 competing wagons so one must be scum, but he is clever so he is allowed to rethink that,.. everyone else is not as clever and cannot think that way, so they must be scum for doing something he does not allow them to do.

It's the same as him repeated calling me an idiot, His way is the right way of playing mafia and everyone else who doesn't follow his rules are dumb or scum.

I get that this can be town.

But this type of mindset automatically sets of scum alarms to me. Either this play comes from scum, or benefits scum. I'll reevaluate my

Sando

vote soon, but I don't townread him.

Now, let me know if you have any other solid reads. My scum pool is in profii/Anen/Shad/fitz/Jimmy/texcat/Creature (in no particular order), but I'm afraid I'm unable to come up with a couple who look more likely to be scum with Jay.

Creature

is giving me eww-vibes this dayphase, but there's several other people that have caught my attention.

I can see how

Aneninen

could be town. I'll have to enage with him, I just don't agree with most of his views so far.

profii

is the next wagon I'd like to hop on.

fitz

and

texcat

are wallpaper at the moment, but I feel like

texcat

is town, jury is still out on fitz.

Will ISO

Jimmy. Shadpearl

is still a question mark to me.

Seems I need to prod dodge.

I'm looking through Ausuka's ISO... Not really liking what I'm seeing. Looking lots at just pure activity levels for TGP yesterday. Nothing really since that point, though. Plus, I think I see some distancing tried from Jay during Day 1 a few times. Day 2 is not moving so fast, so I'm voting my hot read here.

VOTE: Ausuka

-Brass

Please elaborate on this.

Are people voting Jimmy because he hammered without giving a warning? I don't think that's scummy if so. I had already given intent; all scum!Jimmy does there is draw attention to himself.

To me Taly is just obvtowning. I think there's at least one scum in {profii, Sando} and more than anything I'm thinking profii just doesn't flip town here.

can you explain why Taly might have gone from scum reading A50 to not doing so over the course of the flip into day 2 - admittedly I haven't been paying that much attention to this game during the enforced break?

I might have missed that.

Obviously if Taly wants to explain that, then great but I'm not sure how the A50 death clears them right now

There are so many reasons to change your read on someone. Anything could have caused Taly to change his vote. Maybe he thinks the claim is towny, maybe he reconsidered the read.

The most sensible post I've seen in this entire game.

Seriously, I'm FoSing ANYONE who thinks I should've stayed with my reads early yesterday, regardless of

TheGoldenParadox

flip and

Almost50's

claim.

[profii]

To be clear I agree that people can change their reads as much as they like, it's how the game works

When I ask why do you (Ausuka) think they (Taly) did that and the answer is essentially "I'm (Ausuka) not going to speculate on that"

That's when the game stops working. Interpretations help us progress

[Aneninen]

Happy that

Jay's

gone, he didn't truly contribute to the game and it's funny to think that the SK took him out.

You're only happy to see Jay gone because of no contribution to the game? That's just strange, Taly. Strange indeed.

That
Or what if Taly killed Jay?

VOTE: Flavor Leaf
That's hammer. Why hold off the inevitable?

Scummy hammer.

I'm not the only one who doesn't do shyt. Good to know.

I should've seen that one coming when Jay freaked out at the arrival of Dino

Wait, didn't I say the same? Or was it about someone else? It happened so long ago.

no officially not Mafia (NO PUNS) LOOOL

Why?

Also, we're short of Doctors. If all the Doctors have flipped, Almost50 is an auto-lynch. Otherwise, voting for him is bad gameplay.

Before Jay got killed, he (she?) posted "people of interest" with Almost50, Flavor, Dino, and Jimmy listed.

What if the mafia team is Jay/Jimmy/Shadpearl?
Taly's the SK then.

Game solved.

Thanks, and goodbye!

[Aneninen]

Just kidding, I'm reading on.

Shad+Jimmy

Yeah, that's where I'm at rn.
VOTE: Shadpearl

Wait-oh, what if I'm not an idiot?
There are others telling the same thing.

2. Had a weird interaction with Aneninen; I think Anen picked up on her being a doc given his unexplained townread. And given how blatant it was, I'm guessing Jay noticed it (or scum-Anen openly deduced she was a PR and then killed her which would be hilarious/unlikely).

Ghhhhhhhhh, so much for being subtle.

UNVOTE:
fuck me up this is locktown

Eh?

Oh. I thought it was the pictures. I was kinda following Anen's lead with whether those were ok or not. x)

Whut?
I've hardly done anything in this game and done literally nothing Today!

Sando's 793 is a post we should remember later.

Almost's 801 is a kind of over-reaction on Sando. However, I don't think either of them is scum. (With one exception: if Mathdino flips scum, Almost could be scum too. But I'm ignoring the scum-Almost possibility now.)

Zzzzzzz. No comment.

That was gross.

I feel you v_v
Well. I had an argument I was gonna put here, but I realized it would be more helpful to scum than town so please disregard me. Aneninen gets tossed in the town bin for me as of now. Sorry for the trouble. >~<

Either I'm wrong and Shadpearl's town after all.

UNVOTE:

I've just had a revelation! Sando is TOWN.

Good.

Seems I need to prod dodge.

I'm looking through Ausuka's ISO... Not really liking what I'm seeing. Looking lots at just pure activity levels for TGP yesterday. Nothing really since that point, though. Plus, I think I see some distancing tried from Jay during Day 1 a few times. Day 2 is not moving so fast, so I'm voting my hot read here.
VOTE: Ausuka
-Brass

Eh?
That's not a good idea.

Texcat's first 2 votes. Possible scum team?

Frankly, are you quoting PAGE 1 posts now?

But you do have a point seeing as texcat wasn't the only player you'd scumread.

I don't even remember that time. It took place ages ago.

Do you have anything against an Annen wagon?

Why do you want a wagon on me?

VOTE: Jimmy

[Sando]

Taly's original wallpost against me was pretty much the definition of TvT, I mean he wants to paint literally EVERYTHING I've ever done this game as scummy. Scum don't do that, they look for small things to use against you, or they keep super quiet. Trying to look at the entire actions of a player and justify how every single action they've taken is scum motivated is a) silly, scum aren't scummy 100% of the time and b) not something scum are going to do. Figured I'd keep the fight going to see if anyone bit by now. I could buy SK, but I have NFI how to SK hunt tbh, especially in early days when they're just as motivated to scumhunt as anyone else.

UNVOTE:

@Sando: Try to imagine a world in which I am Town and can miscount because I do my own VCs and do not follow the mod's.

So...you got the votecount wrong...twice. I also know how to count. So you're either counting things that aren't actual votes, in which case it's not reasonable to assume that the votee would react in a "normal" manner, or you actually don't know how to count...or you lied about it. I am not basing my statement off official votecounts, I've manually looked through the votes between votecounts, and your numbers are flat out wrong.

What I am arguing though is that they indeed didn't believe me because I do fake claim/ceumb as town and I precisely did it in the most previous game with certain players who are also in this game and I even discussed it in this game with a flipped scum. I do fake claim/crumb as Town to protect the PRs and bait the NK, so those who know me and precisely those who played in that game could very well have very well come to that conclusion.

Yeah I can buy it as an option, just pointing out that there's plenty of options to go with. Worth considering for later days, but I'm not buying this as a scumlead for today.

Now, what IS your read on Annen?

Mine? Soft-town lean. Anen however is the main person who D1 who went "whoa we can't lynch an A50 doc claim" then blithely lynched another doc claim. I haven't seen any other interactions that struck me as scummy though, atm I'm soft town but I find him a very hard read. I'd put money on him not being SK though. I don't think an SK wants kill reasonings brought up late-game.

Seriously, I'm FoSing ANYONE who thinks I should've stayed with my reads early yesterday, regardless of TheGoldenParadox flip and Almost50's claim.

Ooooooo, you'll FOS them?! Scary!

What if the mafia team is Jay/Jimmy/Shadpearl?
Taly's the SK then.

I think this is the closest to my view atm. I think Jimmy is the weakest read I have there, and Taly is the only person I have any SK related read on, but it's very weak this early and I'm going to ignore it for now.

I'm going back to Shad. Fake-newbie, OTT daybreak, only responds/interacts when voted with basically no unforced scumhunting.

VOTE: Shadpearl