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Post Post #800 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:21 pm

Post by profii »

In post 798, Ausuka wrote:Are people voting Jimmy because he hammered without giving a warning? I don't think that's scummy if so. I had already given intent; all scum!Jimmy does there is draw attention to himself.

To me Taly is just obvtowning. I think there's at least one scum in {profii, Sando} and more than anything I'm thinking profii just doesn't flip town here.
can you explain why Taly might have gone from scum reading A50 to not doing so over the course of the flip into day 2 - admittedly I haven't been paying that much attention to this game during the enforced break?

I might have missed that.

Obviously if Taly wants to explain that, then great but I'm not sure how the A50 death clears them right now
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Post Post #801 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Post by Almost50 »

I fully agree with Sando... yeah.., that makes perfect sense...

VOTE: Sando

Let's dance, buddy! Show me what you're really made of!

If someone doesn't see the flow in Sando's case: He says it's me+Taly, but he votes Taly over me himself when >I< was the original suspect to begin with.
Like, if he really believed in his theoretical team he should be pushing ME first and only push Taly if I flip red. Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can
force a claim there!
That's all what scum care about.

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Post Post #802 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:42 pm

Post by Sando »

A50 wrote:If someone doesn't see the flow in Sando's case: He says it's me+Taly, but he votes Taly over me himself when >I< was the original suspect to begin with. Like, if he really believed in his theoretical team he should be pushing ME first and only push Taly if I flip red. Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.
Oh right, so by your logic we shouldn't push a case on ANYONE else because they might be forced to claim? Why is pushing it on Taly any worse than pushing it on literally anyone else? Why did you push cases D1 and lynch a doc-claim if you think pushing people is scum motivated?

You're trying to make out that pushing literally ANYONE other than you can only be scum motivated...
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Post Post #803 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:02 pm

Post by Almost50 »

In post 802, Sando wrote:Oh right, so by your logic we shouldn't push a case on ANYONE else because they might be forced to claim?
Did I say that?? Please turn around and pit the screen in front on you.

You are pushing an A50-Taly team. You are not pushing Taly independently. If you are pushing a TEAM you need to push the original suspect first to prove the possibility of the other one being scum with them.

If we lynch Taky and they flip Scum that may look bad for me, yes.
But what if he flips Town? Nothing. Town make mistakes and I'm still a suspect.

However, lynching me first is always the better option.
If I flip Town then Taly is CLEAR, because why would Scum!him stop pushing me?
Only if I flip Scum does it look bad in him.

So, flipping me could lead to Taly being cleared, while flipping him doesn't do me any good. Now why would you want to miss a chance of getting a clear on someone, even if that was just as good a possibility as any?

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Post Post #804 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:04 pm

Post by Almost50 »

In post 802, Sando wrote:You're trying to make out that pushing literally ANYONE other than you can only be scum motivated...
Yes. Pushing anyone AS MY PARTNER must be scum motivated, because you need to flip ME first before you push anyone for being my partner.

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Post Post #805 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Post by Sando »

A50 wrote:You are pushing an A50-Taly team. You are not pushing Taly independently.
I voted Taly before talking about the A50-Taly team:
In post 792, Sando wrote:Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.
I've explained why the scumteam works, because someone expressed confusion over part of it, I've voted him for other reasons.

Like...read the post I voted him in maybe?
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Post Post #806 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:16 pm

Post by Sando »

A50 wrote:Did I say that?? Please turn around and pit the screen in front on you.
Here you go:
A50 wrote:Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.
Why would I, as scum against town!A50 and town!Taly, feel the need to push Taly for a claim instead of literally anyone else? Like, why Taly? What makes Taly so special?
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Post Post #807 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:28 am

Post by havingfitz »

Zzzzzzz. No comment.
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Post Post #808 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:09 am

Post by davesaz »

Official Vote Count 2.2


JimmyUrineMoneyShot (2) - havingfitz, Kopherald
Sando (1) - Almost50
Taly (1) - Sando

Not Voting (9) - Shadpearl, Ausuka, texcat, Mathdino, profii, Aneninen, Creature, Taly, JimmyUrineMoneyShot

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

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Post Post #809 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:37 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 807, havingfitz wrote:Zzzzzzz. No comment.
You got it right!

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Post Post #810 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am

Post by Shadpearl »

Ah! Sorry for the lack of posting! I'll try to catch up with all the stuff I missed (please excuse some of these old questions/late answers)
In post 766, Ausuka wrote:
In post 764, Shadpearl wrote:
Nope.
Nope, I'm sorry. I was right and nothing will ruin that for me, lmao. Check back when I'm wrong later in the game. :lol:
This is bad too. He seems to be trying to get towncred for not voting FL which is :igmeou: Especially since he never really opposed the TGP wagon.
Just a comment - I was actually just really excited. I didn't expect to get anything right, especially when my line of thinking was going
against
the thoughts of such intimidating players. I am happy I got 1 right. That's enough for me. :3
In post 772, Sando wrote:
Shadpearl wrote:Almost50 didn't die, and
...
Naming both of your other partners in one post would be suicide, not distancing.
What part of this is newbie town again?
...
^(will be taking this as a compliment) Thanks so much! :D As I said, I've played a few games on another site (Mathdino asked to get a link to them but you can't access without an account? And besides, that place shut down their forums -hence why I'm here now!) but it was never as intense on Day1 as you guys have gotten. x) I'm hoping I'll be helpful though!
In post 784, Aneninen wrote:Preemptive prod dodge
I feel you v_v



Well. I had an argument I was gonna put here, but I realized it would be more helpful to scum than town so please disregard me. Aneninen gets tossed in the town bin for me as of now. Sorry for the trouble. >~<

Unfortunately, that deletes about 90% of what I was posting about, lol. As a side note that I hope is helpful - Sando says Almost50 misquoted him, but that's the second time Almost50 would have "misquoted" (the first being his vote count on Day 1, right?). It's possible he's just too lazy to go back and pull up specific posts for what he thinks are minor comments (I feel this too, haha), so it doesn't seem to matter too much to me. Just an accident. *shrug*
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Post Post #811 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:10 am

Post by havingfitz »

In post 795, havingfitz wrote:
In post 783, Ausuka wrote:shadpearl is town for this so
how?
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Post Post #812 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:54 am

Post by Creature »

VOTE: Taly
Sigh
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Post Post #813 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:59 am

Post by Taly »

In post 790, Kopherald wrote:Taly, regarding your question to this slot about why I didn't unvote, I incorrectly scumread TGP from pretty early on. I just looked at the claim from Flavour and the hammer afterwards, during that time, I didn't check this game during that time, I left for my in-law's house around noon that day, the claim came a half hour later, I got home at 9, hammer was already done.

Kop was also not around this weekend.

Also, thank you for taking the time to respond to my question earlier, I'm satisfied with the response.

-Brass
...My townread here is less shaky. I double-checked the thread timings of posts leading up to
TheGoldenParadox's
lynch, and I can definitely see Brass is being genuine, and I relate, because the same thing literally happened to me except for several days.

Talk to me about
Sando
and
profii
. Thoughts on either head?
In post 791, profii wrote:Taly, I'll be talking to you following the new math player or your ISO post on that slot

You've spent a lot of talking about the 1v1 between Doom/A50 but have managed to temp. Retreat on math and obviously the doc claim for A50

Seems convienient - especially after all the stuff you posted about you being the mislynch- you'll have to forgive me if I said it comes across a bit LAMIST
Yeah, I spent
some (because that's not all I did)
time talking about
Doom/A50
D1 because that was before
Almost50's
claim of doctor and the replacement of
Mathdino
after my absence.

I'm not going to sit here and try to find falsehoods in
Almost50's
claim RIGHT after we've lost, both our backup doc, and 1 doc. Especially since BOTH the SK and scum are alive. It's only D2.

Furthermore, I already stated that I'm waiting for a
Mathdino
replacement... what's the point in pushing a slot without anybody there?

Plus, my top scumread for the majority of D1 flipped doc. :igmeou: Why is it odd to rethink my reads?

And I do have solid reasonings for why I made a case against myself, it's not me going
"oh shit! time to look town!"
:roll: :
1)
Weed out the motivations of the pushes against me.
Kopherald
prompted me to respond to , where I'd lay out my views on
JaydragonKing
and
TheGoldenParadox
post-by-post prior to my absence.

2)
By stating that I'm easy to push, I'm welcoming people to BOTH push me, and communicate with me.

3)
...Also, if I was initially correct in being a scumtarget, then that would alter how scum would likely approach me. It's a major reaction test.
In post 794, texcat wrote:
In post 789, Taly wrote:^^^ These votes were less than 10 posts apart. I know Jay flipped scum, but texcat and Kopherald were fast here.

Also, less than 10 posts later, why didn't a doc-claim make you guys question keeping the vote on him?
I don't know what you mean by fast here. I was the first of the three. And while there may have been few posts before the claim, it was at least hours. As I was catching up and read the claim, I was considering where to move my vote, but then came to the selfvote, and decided to leave it.
... Yeah, I hate self-votes. But I've seen both scum and town do it prior to this game.

And by fast, I meant, all 3 votes within a short amount of posting time. Jay was scum, but I wasn't quite sure of either you or
Kopherald's
motivation in voting.
In post 798, Ausuka wrote:Are people voting Jimmy because he hammered without giving a warning? I don't think that's scummy if so. I had already given intent; all scum!Jimmy does there is draw attention to himself.

To me Taly is just obvtowning. I think there's at least one scum in {profii, Sando} and more than anything I'm thinking profii just doesn't flip town here.
profii
is giving me odd vibes, but
Sando's
given me odd vibes since the game started....
profii
can be any alignment, and I've progressively had my early townread on
Sando
destroyed in a vicious fire.

Spoiler: Case On Sando + Reasons For Vote(s) Because IMO, There's Several
In post 792, Sando wrote:
Taly wrote:Please talk to me about how voting Jay and holding off on TheGoldenParadox until a replacement came, is being anti-wagon.
You can't be serious? We'd had a long talk about TGP vs A50, and I specifically said I didn't like your anti-wagon there. Here I'll quote myself for you:
Sando wrote:This is my concern, that Taly is leading us off the A50 train onto TGP to at least get a mislynch out of his partner. I don't like someone looking at their two scummiest reads and being so indignant at the idea of lynching one of them over the other.
This post is so wrong.

1)
You do realize that my general scumread on
TheGoldenParadox
was stronger than
Almost50
, right? - =

Hell, I even stated that I could see
Almost50
being town in some aspects prior to his claim. Why am I scum with
Almost50
because I'm pursuing a more confident scumread?

2)
Why are you still holding me to my earlier reads in D1? Hello,
TheGoldenParadox
flipped town and proved me wrong, WHILE
Almost50
claimed doctor.

In my view, it's incredibly anti-town to lynch through
Almost50's
claim at this point:
If he's truthful, then the town is handing scum the win because we're almost completely vulnerable to 2 NKs each night.
If he's lying, then why sort that out now? Only 3 flips have happened.


3)
You say my 'anti-wagon' is odd, but you didn't even mention the times I've tried to pursue
JaydragonKing
up until my absence, and my further explanation of my push/read on him in my last post.

VOTE: Sando

I feel like this is a very weak attempt to spread suspicion on my stated reasonings.
In post 792, Sando wrote:
Taly wrote:1) Hate that Creature was boiled down to being OMGUS here even though he tried to start a productive wagon 522
How was this productive? How was what I said out of line with my previous discussion with Creature about OMGUS? How was creatures wagon well reasoned and not OMGUS?
Because he was trying to wagon and progress a slowing down game!

This was when
TheGoldenParadox
replaced out and nobody else was there.

1)
You didn't ask him why he voted that way.
2)
You didn't try and gauge a reaction back.
3)
You simply wrote
Creature
off as "omgus-ing as usual".
4)
You then proceeded to doubt
Almost50's
claim without engaging with him.
5)
But you vote Shadpearl...? Seems like you're deflecting attention.

All this happened in

He may not have had a solid reason for wagoning you aside from feeling odd about you -

But your reaction to him SURELY is enough reason for me to vote and suspect you.

VOTE: Sando
In post 792, Sando wrote:
Taly wrote:2) "We'll sort that in the coming days" Love the doubtcast on a claim, though. ((Sarcasm)) But, you didn't seem to have a comment when Flavor Leaf did it and he was getting quickwagoned. 637
Yeah, cause, you know, associative tells and all...
My last post of the day was ~45 minutes after FL claimed, and I wasn't voting him, and was engaged with Mathdino at the time. I was then away during the subsequent wagon. No votes had changed in that time.


Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.

VOTE: Taly
Yeah, the bolded is the exact problem I have here.

1)
had NOTHING to do with verifying or debunking
Flavor Leaf's
claim, and this was WELL before the hammer post in >> Why is
Flavor Leaf's
claim OK, when he's getting wagoned to be lynched, and
Almost50's
is still "weird"?

2)
And cool... Your last day post was 45 minutes after
Flavor Leaf
claimed, but almost TWO days until the hammer. You could have engaged with someone other than
Mathdino
...

3)
Actually, if you truly were away during the final votes on the wagon; - - - - -

Then how were you engaging with Mathdino at all?

Like, this reads as a potential scumslip.


4)
Even if I misread you, and you didn't slip at all, you CANNOT say that the votes on the wagon on Flavor Leaf changed between the hammer and your last post in

There were several votes that were placed on him progressively after this.

Also, what does associatives have to do with
Almost50's
claim? Were you planning to push a
Me+Almost50
scumduo for the past 300 posts?

Actually, rereading makes me think that this WAS planned. You only focused on
Almost50
because it verified a (weak) reason to scumread him even after a flip.

VOTE: Sando
In post 793, Sando wrote:So the scumkill on Lalendra is interesting from a Mathdino reread.

Mathdino would fairly easily qualify as a townleader at end of D1, so either:

1) Scum thought the town-flip would destroy his credibility
2) Scum thought he'd continue to townlead so killed off a townread of his
3) They doc-hunted successfully
4) Mathdino is scum

I don't think 1 is particularly likely with a player like Mathdino. ISOing Mathdino on Lalendra he never came close to townreading him, null at best and I'd say leaning scum. Given Lalendra was backup doc and had no indication they'd have doc power until post flip, I'm not sure 3 is anything more than luck. That leaves 4 as the logical answer.

Anything could be the answer though, they could have VT-read Mathdino and thus simply excluded and ignored him from the hunt, rendering it null, or many other possibilities. But I'm giving scumpoints to Mathdino-slot for both not dying and Lalendra being NKd.
If
Mathdino
being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?

THIS. Is what distancing looks like.

VOTE: Sando
In post 799, Sando wrote:
In post 796, Ausuka wrote:
In post 791, profii wrote:Taly, I'll be talking to you following the new math player or your ISO post on that slot

You've spent a lot of time talking about the 1v1 between Doom/A50 but have managed to temp. Retreat on math and obviously the doc claim for A50

Seems convienient - especially after all the stuff you posted about you being the mislynch- you'll have to forgive me if I said it comes across a bit LAMIST
This post makes like 0 sense to me. Taly is scum because he doesn't think doom or A50 is scum anymore on d2?
Makes sense to me, especially the A50 part.

A50 and TGP get into rival wagons
Taly comes along with "nah despite them both being super scummy, we should only lynch TGP today"
TGP is lynched and flips town
Taly no longer finds A50 scummy

I mean my statement about Taly (which you haven't responded to, just profii's and then lumped me in with) derailing A50 wagon onto TPG is followed very nicely by now no longer scumreading A50. Makes perfect sense from an A50+Taly scum perspective.
I
never
derailed
Almost50
as you're stating, I was focused on
TheGoldenParadox
.

You act as if all of my explanations in this game up to this point... don't exist at all.

VOTE: Sando
In post 802, Sando wrote:
A50 wrote:If someone doesn't see the flow in Sando's case: He says it's me+Taly, but he votes Taly over me himself when >I< was the original suspect to begin with. Like, if he really believed in his theoretical team he should be pushing ME first and only push Taly if I flip red. Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.
1) Oh right, so by your logic we shouldn't push a case on ANYONE else because they might be forced to claim?
2) Why is pushing it on Taly any worse than pushing it on literally anyone else?
3) Why did you push cases D1 and lynch a doc-claim if you think pushing people is scum motivated?


4) You're trying to make out that pushing literally ANYONE other than you can only be scum motivated...
1)
What the hell is this sentence? How, in D1, is a claim automatically 100% scum-motivated in your eyes, but you're not even pushing the wagon on the person that claimed? You're seriously painting everything about
Almost50
out to be scum when in reality, you're ignoring him.

Maybe because you know he might actually BE doc?

2)-

If the above statement holds true; I completely see why
Sando
is pushing me. I
am
an easy case to push.
If it doesn't, then why are you still focused on
Almost50
and I given the explanations and claims? Why am I special to YOU?


3)
Why are you making this argument? You ignored
Flavor Leaf's
claim, and now you're trying to throw reasons back at
Almost50
on why his is bad.

4)
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Gee, I wonder who else has done that.
In post 792, Sando wrote:Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.

VOTE: Taly
In post 526, Sando wrote:Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.
VOTE: Sando


That's 6 reasons right there on my stance over you. I cannot see this as townplay.

((Here's the vote for the mod to see: VOTE: Sando))

I'll wait for Sando to say I'm overreacting as a means to discredit me... again.


P-Edit
Creature wrote:VOTE: Taly
Cool! :D Creature acknowledges my existence.

How's that
profii
doin' for ya?
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"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage
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Post Post #814 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:02 am

Post by Taly »

@Mod

Also, I just want to say - thanks for modding
davesaz!
:D

You've been doing very well and I see that modding takes quite a bit of work, so thanks. This is fun.
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"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage
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Post Post #815 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:36 am

Post by texcat »

In post 813, Taly wrote:If Mathdino being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?

THIS. Is what distancing looks like.

VOTE: Sando
Taly, does this imply that you are scum reading Mathdino?
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Post Post #816 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:17 am

Post by Sando »

In post 813, Taly wrote:1) You do realize that my general scumread on TheGoldenParadox was stronger than Almost50, right? 323 - 364 = 406
You do realise I said "two scummiest" right?
2) Why are you still holding me to my earlier reads in D1? Hello, TheGoldenParadox flipped town and proved me wrong, WHILE Almost50 claimed doctor.
I'm not, I said it was scummy at the time, I'm saying it's still scummy, especially in light of a town-TGP flip. So I say "hey you're trying to push against the A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading A50, that's scummy". Coming back to that the next day and saying "hey you pushing against A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading on A50 was scummy" is not holding you to anything, except account.
In my view, it's incredibly anti-town to lynch through Almost50's claim at this point:
No shit, I've stopped advocating A50 lynch immediately after he claimed. You tried to tie me to TGP's doc claim lynch and failed miserably.
3) You say my 'anti-wagon' is odd, but you didn't even mention the times I've tried to pursue JaydragonKing up until my absence, and my further explanation of my push/read on him in my last post.
Because I didn't think that the Jaydragon push was odd...scum don't do scummy things 100% of the time. But you suuuuuuuuuure are desperate to get the cred for Jay flipping scum.
3) You simply wrote Creature off as "omgus-ing as usual".
I'd already discussed Creature's habit of OMGUS...read the thread ffs.
4) You then proceeded to doubt Almost50's claim without engaging with him.
Bullshit, here's what A50 said to me D1:
In post 313, Almost50 wrote:@Sando: Your vote is already on me, so I owe you no explanations. I was responding to someone who IS trying to understand.
The idea that I hadn't tried to engage with A50 or he was going to engage with me is just utter BS.
5) But you vote Shadpearl...? Seems like you're deflecting attention.
Oh my god I'm so sorry for not voting for one of the Doc claims!!!
1) 646 had NOTHING to do with verifying or debunking Flavor Leaf's claim, and this was WELL before the hammer post in 737 >> Why is Flavor Leaf's claim OK, when he's getting wagoned to be lynched, and Almost50's is still "weird"?
Why would it be? So if there's a claim literally all discussion must be about that claim or it's scummy?
2) And cool... Your last day post was 45 minutes after Flavor Leaf claimed, but almost TWO days until the hammer. You could have engaged with someone other than Mathdino...
Yeah...I could have...if I'd been at home to post...but you're now lying. It was not two days between my last post and the hammer, it was less than 24 hours.

Here's my last post: Sando last D1 post - Sat 3:23pm for me
Here's the flip: Flip - Sun 11:23am for me

For reference, I went to my GFs Sat night and got home around midday.
Nice lie though.

3) Actually, if you truly were away during the final votes on the wagon; 668 - 672 - 680 - 688 - 703 - 737

Then how were you engaging with Mathdino at all?
My last post was directed at him...it literally quotes him and asks him a question. Also don't be a fucking ass, insinuating I'm faking being AFK and also lying about the timeline is just a dog move. I went to see my girlfriend Saturday afternoon, stayed at her place that night and came back after breakfast on the Sunday, he was flipped before I got home around midday. Given you're also wanting sympathy for being away for considerably longer while also lying about the timeline...well fuck right off is all I can say.
If Mathdino being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?
I'm actually parroting him here, but lol nice try. I'm saying he was townleader (in the sense of directing a lot of D1 activity) and that given he didn't die (something he said was a high probability) we should look at what that means. Mathdino said him being alive meant his reads were shit, I took that further to show why it's actually somewhat scummy. All sorts of other things could explain it though, so it's mostly just something to consider going forward.
1) What the hell is this sentence? How, in D1, is a claim automatically 100% scum-motivated in your eyes, but you're not even pushing the wagon on the person that claimed? You're seriously painting everything about Almost50 out to be scum when in reality, you're ignoring him.

Maybe because you know he might actually BE doc?
Ahhhh, yes? I still don't think D2 is the day to lynch a doc claim, especially with a doc and backup already dead. How is quoting me responding to A50 evidence of me ignoring him though?

And finally, I'm not entirely sure how to quote this, but it's the 4) with emoji faces... Wat? You think you gloating about Jay's scumflip is similar to me saying "Creature OMGUS's too much, oh look he did it again"? Wat?
I'll wait for Sando to say I'm overreacting as a means to discredit me... again.
There's really no need, your arguments are weak, you're lying and you're drawing poor parallels. You did vote me something like 5 times there though, what's that about?
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Post Post #817 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:19 pm

Post by Almost50 »

UNVOTE:

I've just had a revelation! Sando is TOWN.

@Taly: Unvote him at will. He's just one of those players who think they're smart and got something, but he's not scum. Trust me on this.

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Post Post #818 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:32 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 810, Shadpearl wrote:Sando says Almost50 misquoted him, but that's the second time Almost50 would have "misquoted" (the first being his vote count on Day 1, right?). It's possible he's just too lazy to go back and pull up specific posts for what he thinks are minor comments
1) A50 "misquoted" the votecount on himself D1, I called him an idiot for it, but I don't think I went after him for scumminess
2) A50 "misquoted" the votes on TGP and used that miscount to call the doc claim into question, resulting in a lynch - This is flat out scummy, see my 752 for reference
3) A50 misrepresented my argument above, by mis-characterising my vote on Taly as partner-related rather than independantly scummy. He could not believe me, although any reasonable person not believing me would call me out on it. He could have missed it, but then it was in my actual vote post, hence I think unlikely. Or he could be deliberately misrepresenting my argument, although any reasonable scum has gotta see I'm gonna slam him for that.

1 was fairly unimportant and I don't see why scum would lie just for the sake of it, it's just as likely to be a doc trying to justify their idiotic claim at L-4 or L-5 or whatever it was. 2 was flat out scummy. 3 is fairly null, I see scum and town motivation for it, but I think it's stupid play on either part.

Most importantly:
2 was flat out scummy
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Post Post #819 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:08 pm

Post by Taly »

In post 815, texcat wrote:
In post 813, Taly wrote:If Mathdino being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?

THIS. Is what distancing looks like.

VOTE: Sando
Taly, does this imply that you are scum reading Mathdino?
Possibly, I'll ISO him in depth, most likely tomorrow when I have time.

I'm not drawing associatives right now, but I don't understand
Sando's
stance with
Mathdino
, or really... a lot of his stances.

Spoiler: Line By Line With Sando
In post 816, Sando wrote:
In post 813, Taly wrote:1) You do realize that my general scumread on TheGoldenParadox was stronger than Almost50, right? 323 - 364 = 406
You do realise I said "two scummiest" right?
Yeah, you do realize I said
stronger
scumread, right?
In post 816, Sando wrote:
2) Why are you still holding me to my earlier reads in D1? Hello, TheGoldenParadox flipped town and proved me wrong, WHILE Almost50 claimed doctor.
I'm not, I said it was scummy at the time, I'm saying it's still scummy, especially in light of a town-TGP flip.
Your point?

This is just pointing out that I was obviously wrong about
TheGoldenParadox
, and I feel like I've already beat-to-death my thought process, from early D1, to right before my absence, to right now; on my reads and thoughts regarding
TheGoldenParadox, Almost50,
and
JaydragonKing
.
In post 816, Sando wrote:So I say "hey you're trying to push against the A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading A50, that's scummy". Coming back to that the next day and saying "hey you pushing against A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading on A50 was scummy" is not holding you to anything, except account.
1)
I never said I've continued to scumread
Almost50
since D1. I said I'm not willing to lynch him, and I believe there is validity in his claim.
2)
What are you talking about me wanting to get cred for
Almost50's
wagon? I didn't push that wagon, I evaluated my reads on
Almost50
and the wagon at the time, and decided to continue with my own push on
TheGoldenParadox
.
In post 816, Sando wrote:
In my view, it's incredibly anti-town to lynch through Almost50's claim at this point:
No shit, I've stopped advocating A50 lynch immediately after he claimed. You tried to tie me to TGP's doc claim lynch and failed miserably.
I'm completely lost on why we're having this conversation.

I've stated why I pushed
TheGoldenParadox
over
Almost50
.
I've stated why I don't want to lynch
Almost50
now and my thoughts on his claim.

I'm trying to figure out why you didn't say anything about the doc claim for
Flavor Leaf
OR if you even believed the claim.
I'm trying to figure out why you're consistently saying the anti-
Almost50
wagon was off in D1 when that wasn't the case in my eyes, and that you are still pushing that now after the claim when I don't understand the immediate relevance.

:facepalm:
In post 816, Sando wrote:
3) You say my 'anti-wagon' is odd, but you didn't even mention the times I've tried to pursue JaydragonKing up until my absence, and my further explanation of my push/read on him in my last post.
Because I didn't think that the Jaydragon push was odd...scum don't do scummy things 100% of the time. But you suuuuuuuuuure are desperate to get the cred for Jay flipping scum.
Break this down like I'm an idiot.

What the hell makes you think I'm trying to gain ANY cred from Jay flipping scum? I fully elaborated on my views before, during, and AFTER my vote/push on JaydragonKing.

I felt that he was horrible town, if not scum, during my vote on him. Why are you misconstruing the explanation of my reads?
In post 816, Sando wrote:
3) You simply wrote Creature off as "omgus-ing as usual".
I'd already discussed Creature's habit of OMGUS...read the thread ffs.
I full-heartedly disagree with this assessment. But OK.
In post 816, Sando wrote:
4) You then proceeded to doubt Almost50's claim without engaging with him.
Bullshit, here's what A50 said to me D1:
In post 313, Almost50 wrote:@Sando: Your vote is already on me, so I owe you no explanations. I was responding to someone who IS trying to understand.
The idea that I hadn't tried to engage with A50 or he was going to engage with me is just utter BS.
If you believe in
Almost50's
doc claim, then why are you creating ASSOCIATIVES between him and I? -

Why are you painting him as scum? Why am I automatically in a scumduo with Almost50 if you believe his claim?

Your reads and pushes make no sense to me.
In post 816, Sando wrote:
5) But you vote Shadpearl...? Seems like you're deflecting attention.
Oh my god I'm so sorry for not voting for one of the Doc claims!!!
:facepalm: That's not even what I'm talking about.

But it's interesting to see that you're twisting the point of my argument.
In post 816, Sando wrote:
1) 646 had NOTHING to do with verifying or debunking Flavor Leaf's claim, and this was WELL before the hammer post in 737 >> Why is Flavor Leaf's claim OK, when he's getting wagoned to be lynched, and Almost50's is still "weird"?
Why would it be? So if there's a claim literally all discussion must be about that claim or it's scummy?
You stated:
Sando wrote:That's one of the worst posts I've ever seen from A50, but a claim is a claim and I think we'll sort that out in the coming days.
What was the point in stating how terrible the claimpost was, and then saying that it'll be sorted out later?

And then when
Flavor Leaf
claimed; you didn't say ANYTHING about that.

I don't get it.
In post 816, Sando wrote:
2) And cool... Your last day post was 45 minutes after Flavor Leaf claimed, but almost TWO days until the hammer. You could have engaged with someone other than Mathdino...
Yeah...I could have...if I'd been at home to post...but you're now lying. It was not two days between my last post and the hammer, it was less than 24 hours.

Here's my last post: Sando last D1 post - Sat 3:23pm for me
Here's the flip: Flip - Sun 11:23am for me

For reference, I went to my GFs Sat night and got home around midday.
Nice lie though.

In post 816, Sando wrote:
3) Actually, if you truly were away during the final votes on the wagon; 668 - 672 - 680 - 688 - 703 - 737

Then how were you engaging with Mathdino at all?
My last post was directed at him...it literally quotes him and asks him a question. Also don't be a fucking ass, insinuating I'm faking being AFK and also lying about the timeline is just a dog move. I went to see my girlfriend Saturday afternoon, stayed at her place that night and came back after breakfast on the Sunday, he was flipped before I got home around midday. Given you're also wanting sympathy for being away for considerably longer while also lying about the timeline...well fuck right off is all I can say.
Please, do not make this personal. I'm trying to understand what went on from your last post in D1 to the hammer. Thanks for clarifying.

In post 816, Sando wrote:
If Mathdino being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?
I'm actually parroting him here, but lol nice try. I'm saying he was townleader (in the sense of directing a lot of D1 activity) and that given he didn't die (something he said was a high probability) we should look at what that means. Mathdino said him being alive meant his reads were shit, I took that further to show why it's actually somewhat scummy. All sorts of other things could explain it though, so it's mostly just something to consider going forward.
Image
In post 816, Sando wrote:
1) What the hell is this sentence? How, in D1, is a claim automatically 100% scum-motivated in your eyes, but you're not even pushing the wagon on the person that claimed? You're seriously painting everything about Almost50 out to be scum when in reality, you're ignoring him.

Maybe because you know he might actually BE doc?
Ahhhh, yes? I still don't think D2 is the day to lynch a doc claim, especially with a doc and backup already dead. How is quoting me responding to A50 evidence of me ignoring him though?

And finally, I'm not entirely sure how to quote this, but it's the 4) with emoji faces... Wat? You think you gloating about Jay's scumflip is similar to me saying "Creature OMGUS's too much, oh look he did it again"? Wat?
1)
I'm not gloating, I never was gloating. I don't know how you come to these conclusions.
2)
That's not even what I said, for the 1000th time.
3)
I'm referring to that whenever someone has pushed or voted you, it seems like you've written it off up until this point.
In post 816, Sando wrote:
I'll wait for Sando to say I'm overreacting as a means to discredit me... again.
There's really no need, your arguments are weak, you're lying and you're drawing poor parallels. You did vote me something like 5 times there though, what's that about?
:facepalm: I'm done here.


Sando
, you can reply, but I'm losing the point in going back-and-forth about this.
In post 817, Almost50 wrote:UNVOTE:

I've just had a revelation! Sando is TOWN.

@Taly: Unvote him at will. He's just one of those players who think they're smart and got something, but he's not scum. Trust me on this.
:? I'm struggling to understand
Sando
here. :/

Tell me why he's town, explain it to me as if I don't know what Mafia is.

I don't understand his read on you.
I don't understand the point behind his push on me.
I don't know why he believes I'm soaking up this
Jay
scumflip even though I've simply stated my reasons for voting and pushing him.
I don't know what he expects to gain from probing me about my read on you D1.
I don't understand his associatives.
I don't know any other aspect of his reads or mindset in this game.
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Post Post #820 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:30 pm

Post by Sando »

I'll reply to a few, just because you seem to really, really not get it.
Taly wrote:If you believe in Almost50's doc claim, then why are you creating ASSOCIATIVES between him and I? 799 - 805
Why are you painting him as scum? Why am I automatically in a scumduo with Almost50 if you believe his claim?
1) I do not believe the claim
2) I think it's bad form to lynch a doc claim when you don't have to
3) I didn't believe TGPs/Flavours claim
4) I was in a different situation than A50s claim, I wasn't voting him and I was out the door an hour after it happened, hence different situation, different response

How does ANY of that not make sense to you?
Taly wrote:Please, do not make this personal. I'm trying to understand what went on from your last post in D1 to the hammer. Thanks for clarifying.
Bullshit, you
flat out lied
about the times and then intimated that I'm lying about being AFK, all to make a scumcase on me. You made it personal, not me.
Taly wrote:3) I'm referring to that whenever someone has pushed or voted you, it seems like you've written it off up until this point.
Please show me where I've said it about anyone's attack on me other than Creature's? Given I've just had both you and A50 vote me, shouldn't be too hard for you to find examples...

Taly, why are you attacking me for being away during the lynch and my single post soon after the claim not being anti-wagon enough for your liking, while A50 blatantly lying about the votecount in order to cast doubt on the claim and also actually lynching the doc, gets a pass? You're desperate enough to paint me as scummy you'll just make shit up about the timeline, but outright lies from A50 to secure the lynch on a doc claim you'll just ignore?
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Post Post #821 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:02 pm

Post by Almost50 »

It's hard to explain how Sando thinks although I can see where he's coming from and I've seen it too many times before (and have been guilty of it myself in a previous stage of my Mafia play). Suffice it to say he's going "one-dimensional", so to speak, and he also expects everyone else to do the same. It was either me or TGP, so if TGP flipped green you should NOT have revamped your whole read list, but should have rather simply turned to me. Y'know.. it's a binary thing for him.. 2 competing wagons so one must be scum, but he is clever so he is allowed to rethink that,.. everyone else is not as clever and cannot think that way, so they must be scum for doing something he does not allow them to do.

It's the same as him repeated calling me an idiot, His way is the right way of playing mafia and everyone else who doesn't follow his rules are dumb or scum.

Now, let me know if you have any other solid reads. My scum pool is in profii/Anen/Shad/fitz/Jimmy/texcat/Creature (in no particular order), but I'm afraid I'm unable to come up with a couple who look more likely to be scum with Jay.

HOWEVER, and on an
individual level
, I think it more likely that there's scum in Anen/fitz, and here is why:

Anen, Creature AND Jay were all in a game with me and Dino recently (this one) where I was a VT and tried to bait the NK by pretending to be a PR (but I never claimed).

Jay -on the other hand- was also a VT who went too far as to actually claim and get CC'd (i.e. he drew the PR out to CC him).

If you notice the conversation between me and Jay after I claimed here I told him something like "this is how you do it as town.. you claim something that cannot be CC'd so as not to out the real PRs".

My theory thus is that the scum team is under the impression I'm fake claiming to get them to shoot me, and are hopeful they can shoot the other doctors so that they can lynch me without having to waste a bullet on me.

So, I would of course suspect Jay to have gone down that route and told his teammates, but seeing as he didn't see it in the first time (in the linked game) coupled with me actually outright claiming here rather than crumbing and hinting .. let's just say I'm not too confident it was Jay who directed the NK off me. I think it was something more perceptive, and that would be Annen (who was scum in that game) or Creature (who was town in that game).

Also worthy of note that the SK did follow Dino's advice and shot Jay. It
could
be either of them still, or it could be fitz, but I'm not seeing scum!fitz outright here.

Shad and profii look good as a team from VCA, but profii isn's as scummy on a stand alone basis.

texcat I always scum read regardless, and Jimmy hasn't been in the game to begin with.

tl;dr

So, what's your read in Annen?

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Post Post #822 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:06 pm

Post by Almost50 »

Btw, I always have trouble distinguishing scum play from PR play (with a few exceptions), so it could very well be that 2 of my suspects are actually TPRs.

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Post Post #823 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:18 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 821, Almost50 wrote:It's hard to explain how Sando thinks although I can see where he's coming from and I've seen it too many times before (and have been guilty of it myself in a previous stage of my Mafia play). Suffice it to say he's going "one-dimensional", so to speak, and he also expects everyone else to do the same. It was either me or TGP, so if TGP flipped green you should NOT have revamped your whole read list, but should have rather simply turned to me. Y'know.. it's a binary thing for him.. 2 competing wagons so one must be scum, but he is clever so he is allowed to rethink that,.. everyone else is not as clever and cannot think that way, so they must be scum for doing something he does not allow them to do.

It's the same as him repeated calling me an idiot, His way is the right way of playing mafia and everyone else who doesn't follow his rules are dumb or scum.
I've never said "well if you thought it was TGP or A50 not going for A50 is scummy", although I can see how you could get that impression. I said, at the time, that I thought it odd that on your two biggest scumreads you'd focus so much on one to the deliberate exclusion of the other. I've now said that backing away from that scum read would make logical sense in that world, where the push against TGP was a deliberate draw away from A50 ploy, and now that we're in a new day and he's got some cred for voting a scumflip he can start moving away from that scumread.

I'm not saying not finding you scummy now is itself scummy, I'm saying it makes sense in the previously expressed theory of proceedings.

I'm calling you an idiot/scum for lying about the TGP votecount to call FLs claim into doubt. That's not a matter of "if you're not doing it my way you're an idiot", it was just a terrible statement to make from you. You'd previously been called out for bad votecounts, which you petulantly refused to acknowledge. You then got the votecount and situation on TGP completely wrong or lied about it, with the stated aim of discrediting a doc claim. And then the doc claim was real. Yes, you're either an idiot for that or scum.
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Post Post #824 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:39 pm

Post by Sando »

A50 wrote:So, I would of course suspect Jay to have gone down that route and told his teammates, but seeing as he didn't see it in the first time (in the linked game) coupled with me actually outright claiming here rather than crumbing and hinting .. let's just say I'm not too confident it was Jay who directed the NK off me. I think it was something more perceptive, and that would be Annen (who was scum in that game) or Creature (who was town in that game).
Assuming you're town:

Scum watched you lynch a doc and watched your wagon fall apart on your claim, only I've really expressed strong scum leanings on you since then. I don't think anyone really considered you a viable D2 lynch target, so they're committing to leave a potential doc alive for a night.

a) You're also doc-bait, so that could cause them to look elsewhere
b) You're SK bait, so that could cause them to consider you a waste
c) They didn't believe you
d) They'd already got a doc so meh, worth the risk of looking elsewhere
e) SK is higher priority than docs for scum

Any or all of these could be true, as well as you being scum. I'm wary of reading too much into just C (which is basically what you're suggesting I think), much like I'm wary of reading too much into MD's reads pushing the NKs around in various ways. Worth considering but I don't like the idea of judging D2 on it.
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