Open 717: C9++ [GAME OVER:TOWN WINS]

[Gamma Emerald]

By the way if you don't want someone to be lynched don't put them at l-1. It's that simple. We're not going to put everyone to l-1 and get a claim the move on until all PRs are outed. I said to lynch the first vt claim but nobody listened. Then you put Sesq to l-1 an wanted a claim. She would have claimed vt. So? Would you have lynched her? That would be hypocritical because you didn't lynch Kop for the same claim. Would you have let her go and wagoned someone else? How many wagons did you guys need to help scum find the PRs? If anyone really did understand why I called for the masons to claim they should have understood why I didn't like wagoning people to l-1 and getting them to claim then moving on.

And yes, of course there was scum on both Kop and Sesq's wagon, That's what scum do. They push wagons to get claims and shoot the PRs.

Why are you so certain Kop is town? Also nice job shaming the fucking IC. You've made me even happier with where my vote is.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I should have added "or Godfather". Playing spearhead requires you either are expendable or you're not afraid of getting investigated.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Being the IC doesn't make them a better player. The Korina head is well known to self-hammer at l-1 regardless of alignment and have done it more than once as town, which makes it even worse play fro them indeed to put someone else at l-1 if they didn't want them lynched.

[Hoopla]

By the way if you don't want someone to be lynched don't put them at l-1. It's that simple. We're not going to put everyone to l-1 and get a claim the move on until all PRs are outed. I said to lynch the first vt claim but nobody listened.

Then you put Sesq to l-1 an wanted a claim. She would have claimed vt. So? Would you have lynched her?

That would be hypocritical because you didn't lynch Kop for the same claim. Would you have let her go and wagoned someone else? How many wagons did you guys need to help scum find the PRs? If anyone really did understand why I called for the masons to claim they should have understood why I didn't like wagoning people to l-1 and getting them to claim then moving on.

And yes, of course there was scum on both Kop and Sesq's wagon, That's what scum do. They push wagons to get claims and shoot the PRs.

That's using the benefit of hindsight. Nobody knew she was a VT and she was going to claim it. There are plenty of roles scum simply won't fakeclaim, which are masons and probably vig. I'd also be inclined to give a Cop claim a reprieve on D1, but you robbed us of the potential of analysing Sesq's claim and making a decision, and were simply lucky it wasn't a costly hammer. She could have easily been a Cop/Vig/Mason.

Having said all that, I agree with this:

I don't want to believe this game is that easy. This has been the worst hammer in the history of hammers, maybe ever. But there is a lot of "what ifs" we should analyze before finishing this day so quickly.

It does seem kinda easy, but the problem with this type of thinking is it lets clearly scummy/antitown play off the hook if you don't follow it up, and I think reprieving someone on the logic of something being "too scummy to be scum" or "this is all a bit too easy", is a slippery slope and you'll miss more opportunities of lynching scum in the longrun.

I do agree that we shouldn't quicklynch JJD today, as I still barely have reads on half the player list.

[pinturicchio]

Actually JJD, when there's a possibility that there are not 1 but 2 vigilantes in this game, it's important to have some claims so the don't accidentally kill a PR; that's why claiming VT it's not optimal in this kind of setup.

[Ok Nyeo]

@Una

Do you think JJD is mafia?

[UglyDuck]

By the way if you don't want someone to be lynched don't put them at l-1. It's that simple. We're not going to put everyone to l-1 and get a claim the move on until all PRs are outed. I said to lynch the first vt claim but nobody listened. Then you put Sesq to l-1 an wanted a claim. She would have claimed vt. So? Would you have lynched her? That would be hypocritical because you didn't lynch Kop for the same claim. Would you have let her go and wagoned someone else? How many wagons did you guys need to help scum find the PRs? If anyone really did understand why I called for the masons to claim they should have understood why I didn't like wagoning people to l-1 and getting them to claim then moving on.

And yes, of course there was scum on both Kop and Sesq's wagon, That's what scum do. They push wagons to get claims and shoot the PRs.

where is your logic coming from of "putting someone at L-1, they claim VT and we lynch them"? That literally exactly happened earlier in this game and we did not lynch that person.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

let me ask you all a hypothetical question. If you were a cop in this game who would you have checked tonight? I of course don't want you to answer in thread but only to yourself in your mind, If the answer is JJD for that hammer then are limiting yourself to me being a Godfather, an investigation immune SK, or a townie. Said another way the chances of me being scum have dropped down by 50% for that hammer and it has nothing to do with being too scummy to be scum bs but more to do with the fact that I simply cannot be a goon or RB knowing there might be a cop in the game and draw attention to myself like that.

Now comes the tricky part. Would a lone scum play this way? I myself would say not a chance but you're not me so you're entitled to have your own view. Those who agree I can't be the SK though are now at 25% chance of me being scum compared to the initial chance at the start of the game.

Stay with me please as this is going to get interesting. A Godfather is supposed to be immune to investigations. That's the whole advantage of them being a Godfather. So they go on and stick their neck this far that if they don't get lynched they'd be vigged or killed by the SK?

If you have any real logic you would deduce there is literally no chance of me being scum here, and precisely for that hammer. On any other setup it might be something for scum to get away with, but not in this setup.

You may think there is no vig in the game and probably no SK either because we only had one NK. But did I know that yesterday when I placed the hammer?

Food for thought

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

where is your logic coming from of "putting someone at L-1, they claim VT and we lynch them"? That literally exactly happened earlier in this game and we did not lynch that person.

Exactly. So who would we lynch then? You don't think scum were going to claim scum, do you?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

The point is every single player is going to either claim vt or a PR and if we're not lynching vt claims we'll keep on running people up and our all the PRs.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

By lynching the vt claim you are forcing the scum to fake claim a OR rather than just go for the safest refuge in a vt claim. If scum claim PRs they're either countered on the spot or left for later flips to expose them.

[Gamma Emerald]

Anyone with a brain would know scum will always claim vt on D1, btw. It doesn't matter that I town read Kop. It's a given that scum not yet being able to analyze the setup to any degree of certainty will have to go for the safest claim on D1.

After you guys refused to lynch Kop, any sane PR should have also claimed vt if run to l-1. So we would have ended up with a bunch of vt claims or we would have ended up with a not-so-sharp PR claiming and getting night killed.

Today we have wagons to analyze though. It is 100% that there was scum on the Sesq wagon, It's also 95% that there was scum on Kop regardless of his alignment, and it's 100% there is scum on my wagon as we speak. The problem is 3 out of the 4 voting me were on Sesq, and also 3 were on the Kop wagon. 2 were on both wagons and are currently on mine. These are Fredrick A Campbell and Hoopla.

I say we lynch the former as he lead the wagon on Kop and is leading the wagon on me. That's the most likely mafioso playing spearhead for his team (also most likely to flip the goon for this very reason)

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

You're wrong that scum will claim VT at L-1, I'm an example to the contrary on multiple occasions. btw loving that you're saying scum was on Sesq after you said the first and next to last voters were town, like how about you look at everyone rather than go head-first into a lynch? In addition I don't think you have to be goon/gf to spearhead, you just have to be a confident scum.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

fake claim a PR*

[pinturicchio]

Vig and SK shots could have been blocked, you know...

[Gamma Emerald]

Being the IC doesn't make them a better player. The Korina head is well known to self-hammer at l-1 regardless of alignment and have done it more than once as town, which makes it even worse play fro them indeed to put someone else at l-1 if they didn't want them lynched.

Yeah shut up you've already blamed the IC no amount of defense will exempt you from my scrutiny on that

[pinturicchio]

By lynching the vt claim you are forcing the scum to fake claim a OR rather than just go for the safest refuge in a vt claim. If scum claim PRs they're either countered on the spot or left for later flips to expose them.

This is also not true in this setup. PRs can't counter on the spot, and later flips could be too late.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And how confident can I be with only 2 games under my belt? This is my 3rd game on the site.

But you are also forgetting the mechanical part. Confidence is good but it won't help me if a Cop returned a guilty on me, would it?

[UglyDuck]

The point is every single player is going to either claim vt or a PR and if we're not lynching vt claims we'll keep on running people up and our all the PRs.

except the part where the player could actually be a Town PR.. then claim a town PR and then we have to go from there. You are being results oriented. They did in fact flip VT, but that was not known to be something that would happen. By quickhammering you removed the possibility of them claiming a Town PR.
To your stated logic - skum will always claim VT, and then we can sort them out. So what is the upside in not allowing the time for a claim? It isn't like we were short on time or anything.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Vig and SK shots could have been blocked, you know...

Good point. So we still don't know they do not exist for sure, and much less so yesterday. Thank you.

[Gamma Emerald]

let me ask you all a hypothetical question. If you were a cop in this game who would you have checked tonight? I of course don't want you to answer in thread but only to yourself in your mind, If the answer is JJD for that hammer then are limiting yourself to me being a Godfather, an investigation immune SK, or a townie. Said another way the chances of me being scum have dropped down by 50% for that hammer and it has nothing to do with being too scummy to be scum bs but more to do with the fact that I simply cannot be a goon or RB knowing there might be a cop in the game and draw attention to myself like that.

Now comes the tricky part. Would a lone scum play this way? I myself would say not a chance but you're not me so you're entitled to have your own view. Those who agree I can't be the SK though are now at 25% chance of me being scum compared to the initial chance at the start of the game.

Stay with me please as this is going to get interesting. A Godfather is supposed to be immune to investigations. That's the whole advantage of them being a Godfather. So they go on and stick their neck this far that if they don't get lynched they'd be vigged or killed by the SK?

If you have any real logic you would deduce there is literally no chance of me being scum here, and precisely for that hammer. On any other setup it might be something for scum to get away with, but not in this setup.

You may think there is no vig in the game and probably no SK either because we only had one NK. But did I know that yesterday when I placed the hammer?

Food for thought

yawn
I don't care for this defense, scum could hammer without those roles if they were confident they could get away with it, plus cop isn't supposed to investigate likely lynches at least imho

[Gamma Emerald]

Vig and SK shots could have been blocked, you know...

Why is this relevant?

[pinturicchio]

What I really don't get is that JJD said on this hammer post that "you can blame me for this" and now that he's getting blamed he's being so aggresive with his defense

[Hoopla]

let me ask you all a hypothetical question. If you were a cop in this game who would you have checked tonight? I of course don't want you to answer in thread but only to yourself in your mind, If the answer is JJD for that hammer then are limiting yourself to me being a Godfather, an investigation immune SK, or a townie. Said another way the chances of me being scum have dropped down by 50% for that hammer and it has nothing to do with being too scummy to be scum bs but more to do with the fact that I simply cannot be a goon or RB knowing there might be a cop in the game and draw attention to myself like that.

You'd literally be the worst possible Cop investigation as you're probably going to be the lynch today or vigged last night. A cop should never waste an investigation on such a player.

The optimal choices as Cop is to pick someone that isn't too townie/scummy and doesn't look like being the lynch or NK any time soon -- as this way if you get an innocent result, you don't have to out yourself to protect them D2 and you don't run the risk of your target being NK'ed.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

By lynching the vt claim you are forcing the scum to fake claim a OR rather than just go for the safest refuge in a vt claim. If scum claim PRs they're either countered on the spot or left for later flips to expose them.

This is also not true in this setup. PRs can't counter on the spot, and later flips could be too late.

Really! OK then, I'm a Cop and I have a guilty on Fredrick A Campbell.

[pinturicchio]

Vig and SK shots could have been blocked, you know...

Why is this relevant?

Read the thread? #432 to be precise