Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:58 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 148, Sando wrote:
Mathdino wrote:but if you have evidence that hypocrisy more often comes from scum than town, I'll modify my toolbox.
Do you mean hypocrisy as in "
you did the same thing as me, it's scummy from you but not from me
", or "
person A and person B did the same thing, I read person A as scummy and person B as town
". There's a town motivation for the first, since they know they're alignment, so yeah they tend to be hypocritical there. But if you think something is scummy, to selectively apply it between two people you ostensibly don't have alignment info about, that doesn't have a town motivation.

Or are you just saying townies are idiots and cause this not to be a useful tell?
The former. The latter is definitionally not hypocrisy. It's inconsistency/selective application of reasoning.

But townies are also idiots :P
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:06 pm

Post by Agent Sparkles »

In post 36, davesaz wrote:
In post 16, Agent Sparkles wrote:VOTE: Mathdino for accusing Kmd and Gamma but not voting
Very shallow, but it was still RVS so don't put much weight on that shallowness.
The vote was purely RVS, I didn't find it scummy.

I have a fair amount to catch up on, so I'm just gonna write as I read
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:53 pm

Post by Agent Sparkles »

Alright here we go
In post 30, BuJaber wrote:
In post 18, popsofctown wrote:VOTE: Vote: Gamma Emerald

Saying "I have not the liberty of selecting anything about my alignment" instead of saying "I have not the liberty of selecting my alignment" suggests his alignment has two components - a side, and a set of people who share that alignment. A VT would be more likely to naturally construct the latter statement.

Doesn't really rule out a masonslip, but the quality of lynching someone who is mason/scum is significantly better than random lynching, so this is where my vote should go for now.
What is happening in this post?

VOTE: popsofctown
Would like to see a follow-up on this, even if it's late. Although I wasn't swayed by pop's post either, the lack of any obvious thought in this vote is off-putting.

GL's naked wagon vote in looks slightly scummy/opportunistic with the way it came out of the blue, the main difference from the others being the serious tone in it (most of the others are obviously messing around0).

My early impression of pop is that he's chasing what's almost a non-point with Gamma but not necessarily scum for it. The whole mindset about masons is obviously bad and anti-town, but I'm actually kind of leaning green with his follow-up on it. Openly acknowledges the cost of saying too much, but still doesn't back down or make a concession despite the backlash. And really, I just don't see the scum motivation behind it. It could come just as easily from town.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:56 pm

Post by Mathdino »

@Mod:
The nature of this playerlist and this site is such that you're going to have multiple players who are unlikely to post daily.

Hard-request deadline extension of at least few days.
The short nature of the deadline was not advertised in the queue and without stricter activity requirements, a deadline this short is near unplayable.

I'd appreciate if anyone else could get on board with this. A week deadline makes sense for, say, 7p, but not at all for 13p imo.
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:00 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Where I'm at:

Agent Sparkles: Earnest town.
BuJaber: Has done nothing to make me think he's town.
davesaz: Can be townbinned pending meta review. Wouldn't lynch him today ever.
Gamma Emerald: Whenever I think I can read him, I'm proven wrong. I literally haven't seen him play scum lately so I'm on edge here.
GuiltyLion: I don't know wtf is up with his push but will evaluate when he gets back. Still scumreading but mostly off gut.
kmd4390: Town. Won't survive if scum; bad lynch candidate today.
Kop: Literally hasn't posted.
Myloninja13: Literally hasn't posted.
northsidegal: HARD TOWN.
popsofctown: Highly likely town.
Sando: A bucketload of NAI things. Need to metadive.
verydark: Lynchable.

Lynchpool: {Bujaber, GL, Kop, Mylo, verydark}
Neverlynchpool: {NSG, pops, Kmd, Agent}
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:10 pm

Post by popsofctown »

I think I'd appreciate at least a 9 day day1, like a week +2 weekends, sort of. Some people have sorts of posting rhythms that can get knocked off by a tip to tip one week deadline, even beyond the spirit of a short deadline.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Post by Sando »

Fair warning, my posting levels go down Wed-Sat as I spend the evenings over at my GFs. I tend to follow along on my phone and post once home (I WFH) but I don't like to mobile post so yeah my postings go down those days.

It's Tues ~5pm where i am for reference.

Given we're about 30+ hours in and two people haven't posted nor been prodded, yeah this is gonna be super easy for scum to lurk-win at this rate.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:54 pm

Post by Kmd4390 »

In post 71, Mathdino wrote:@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

@Kmd: Is Dave ever townish? Null.
*shrug*... I never really thought of him as someone with a scummy style until he told us he sees himself that way. I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I've usually townread him in the past. If our verydark wagon turns out to be on town, dave's vote was the one that stood out to me as possible opportunism.
verydark wrote:Wow, ya'll are killing me.

I literally just finished a newbie game, and only have 4 games under my belt TOTAL (from 7 years ago). I was just RVSing. Chill out, good grief.

I wanted to play a game a little more fast paced than the newbie ones, I guess I should have emotionally prepared myself.

I phoneposted the RVS comment, and was 3rd to post. Didn't really have anything funny to comment on, except Agent Sparkles is a funny name that I could memorize by the time I got to the reply box.

I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.
Can't help but notice this is 100% survivalist/defensive/overreacting and 0% scumhunting. Post 84 might be genuine though... Hmm...

______________

I'll have to read page 5 and beyond at another time. My pizza is here.
KMD is the coolest dude who ever lost a bet to me - vonflare
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:09 pm

Post by Agent Sparkles »

Okay, first strong read.

Verydark played the newbie and frustration cards
way
too hard when he came back and it's not believable.
In post 79, verydark wrote:
Wow, ya'll are killing me.


I literally just finished a newbie game, and only have 4 games under my belt TOTAL
(from 7 years ago). I was just RVSing.
Chill out, good grief.


I wanted to play a game a little more fast paced than the newbie ones,
I guess I should have emotionally prepared myself.


I phoneposted the RVS comment, and was 3rd to post. Didn't really have anything funny to comment on, except Agent Sparkles is a funny name that I could memorize by the time I got to the reply box.

I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.
In post 84, verydark wrote:
In post 81, GuiltyLion wrote:
who should we vote instead?
Well if you don't want to kick off the game by lynching town on D-1, I'd suggest literally ANYONE else.
In post 89, verydark wrote:
In post 75, Mathdino wrote:
Request vote count.


This is gonna be one for the ages

Edit: ok both GL and NSG are harping on this shit
Gonna go metadive Sandos to see if anything can be AI
This guy is getting on my nerves.
Why are you trying to push a lynch so fucking fast? We are on page FOUR.


I think you're being neurotic to distract people. This is where the wagon should go.

VOTE: Mathdino
You'd most newer players to get frustrated at being wagoned, but this kind of reaction from his first 20 minutes in the spotlight...? Everything I bolded on here looks like either forcing as much frustration as possible (I especially cringed at the "chill out, good grief") or cheaply guilt-tripping everyone on his wagon. Then this happens:
In post 96, verydark wrote:Lmao, I actually just noticed I'm at L-2.

Well here you go, someone hammer me.

VOTE: verydark

You wanna waste a D-1 lynch on town? It's not me, idiots.
....he just selfvotes and resigns himself to the lynch before most of us can even respond. 95% of the time I've seen an emotional self-vote like this it's been completely manufactured and a clumsy attempt to gain towncred, because there's just no reason for town to actually do this. It also makes it harder to believe his later claim that he thought he was in immediate danger of a scum hammer (which no reasonable scum would do, but that's another discussion).

Reading ahead, some of this stuff has already been pretty well explained by other people. I would try to interact with the last couple of pages like I'd planned, but it's super late and I've already had to force myself to read and understand all of it. I'll be back in the morning.

General thoughts: Consider my vote on verydark. I won't officially put it there until I know for sure how many votes he has. I also have a considerably weaker scumlean on Sando and slight townlean on GL.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:11 pm

Post by Agent Sparkles »

Oh, and pops is likewise with GL.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:24 pm

Post by Aster »

Vote Count 1.1


VoteeVoters
verydark (4)
Kmd4390 (), davesaz (), northsidegal (), Gamma Emerald ()
Mathdino (3)
Agent Sparkles (), GuiltyLion (), verydark ()
Gamma Emerald (1)
popsofctown ()
GuiltyLion (1)
Sando ()
popsofctown (1)
BuJaber ()

Not voting:
Kop, Mathdino, Myloninja13

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Last edited by Aster on Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:42 pm

Post by Mathdino »

We're not getting that deadline extension.

davesaz is now locktown btw.

Verydark wagon: Town on the wagon is Kmd, davesaz, NSG, Gamma (if scumflip), Agent. Scum on the wagon is GL (formerly), Gamma (if townflip).

Mathdino wagon: Agent vote doesn't count. Either of these could be scum IMO. And to preempt verydark calling this OMGUS (I know GL wouldn't), I was scumreading both of these players before they voted me.

Gamma vs pops: TvT

GL vote: Goodvote I guess?

pops vote: Badvote.

What's inevitably gonna happen here is people will come in, check the thread, and go "wow there's like no resistance to the verydark wagon, fuckin weird". Except the only possible scum currently willing to lynch verydark is Gamma, while I'm explicitly being counterwagoned.

So to preempt that bad logic, consider that if the scumteam is literally something like, say, verydark/Bujaber/Kop, scum doesn't have the activity or the presence to stop the verydark lynch at all. The "this wagon has no resistance" metric only applies if enough people are actually active for everyone to affirm that they're okay with the lynch.

FMPOV, there's a 46% chance there's scum in Kop/Mylo already. Add in a scumbuddy of GL, Sando, or Bujaber, and verydark-scum works just fine.

So yeah I'll be voting there once NSG or davesaz pulls their RVS vote off.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:44 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 157, Kmd4390 wrote:*shrug*... I never really thought of him as someone with a scummy style until he told us he sees himself that way. I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I've usually townread him in the past. If our verydark wagon turns out to be on town, dave's vote was the one that stood out to me as possible opportunism.
I once mislynched him and I see him get scumread a lot so.

Regardless, I heavily disagree with the opportunism read, and think Gamma's vote is much fishier.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:44 pm

Post by Aster »

Referendum: Motion to permanently extend deadlines


There's a sentiment that the deadlines are too short. It looks like I overestimated the support for shorter deadlines, which is my failure as mod.

However, currently I've only heard two players about the deadline, which is a pretty small sample size, and I shouldn't be too wishy-washy about changing the rules. The rules do after all restrict changes to only "if the mod deems so necessary" and are supposed to give a certain sense of certainity.

So I'm holding a referendum. Everyone is invited (but not required) to give their opinion about a longer deadline. I'm proposing extending the deadline to 11 real life days per game day (other proposals welcome, but this is a baseline if there is strong support for extending it but no concensus on how long.)

Opinions may be stated in this thread or PM'ed to the mod. You may lie in this thread and PM your real opinion to the mod. No votes or votecount on this referendum shall be made public, only whether the extension passed or failed.

Opinions may or may not be more complex than "for" or "against" and this referendum is more of an opinion poll than a majority rule. I'll reach a decision in approximately (expired on 2018-03-21 20:00:00).

This referendum has been resolved. The deadline has been extended to 11 days.
Last edited by Aster on Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:48 pm

Post by Mathdino »

11 days is fantastic. Personally I do 14 days for fairness' sake but I also selfishly believe 11 days is better for town.
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:29 pm

Post by Sando »

Referendum
: I'm happy with either 11 or 14, but yes I think we need perm. extension.

Prods
: Why are Kop/Mylo getting a pass on lurking and can I read something into that? ie is there reasons the mod hasn't prodded them?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:46 pm

Post by Sando »

Mathdino wrote:while I'm explicitly being counterwagoned.
Wait you're saying your wagon is to distract from verydark? Why you?
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:27 am

Post by Myloninja13 »

Hi guys, sorry for being late but I was on V/LA. I'm really tired now so I'll properly read the thread tomorrow.
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:57 am

Post by Agent Sparkles »

I support an 11 day cycle.

UNVOTE: until I make my next contribution to this
"There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." -Oscar Levant
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:10 am

Post by Aster »

In post 165, Sando wrote:Prods: Why are Kop/Mylo getting a pass on lurking and can I read something into that? ie is there reasons the mod hasn't prodded them?
Prods are sent after 48 hours of inactivity during a day phase. This day hasn't lasted 48 hours yet.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:28 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

When I said dank I meant as in dank meme
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:27 am

Post by BuJaber »

@Agent - my vote was semi-serious RVS vote. It doesn't need an explantion. It sounded scummy and "reachy" to me but honestly I didn't understand it fully at the time. Hence the question.

Pops' subsequent posts give a much better impression. Particularly post 139 which gave me a very townie vibe.

I hate verydark's reactions. I hate his self vote. While I agree that it does come from both alignments the timing of the self-vote is just as important as the vote itself. There really is very little motivation for town to put themselves at L-1. Frustrated town who give up self-hammer. Frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier. Self-voting so close to a wagon is terrible.
VOTE: verydark

Sando seems to me like someone trying to look busy. I don't know exactly what he was trying to gain from the mathdino interrogation. It looked like a lot of pedantic questioning on very specific things that seem irrelevant. Also his vote on GL is rather suspicious and I can't figure out the town motivation for it. I disagree that it is townie to turn people's arguments for SRing you against them. In my experience it's what scum tends to do because they are trying to point the spotlight away from themselves.
But the points he makes about waiting to see the consequences of dino's reactions seem genuine and logical. I have a slight scumlean here.

Once math gets the memes/jokes out of his system it will make reading him easier. But for now I'm townreading his reasoning behind pushing the wagon, his wagon analysis, his comments wrt verydark's reactions, and his apparent eagerness to engage with/comment on everyone. None of these things are difficult to fake alone but the combination of them together makes faking them much more difficult and therefore unlikely.

I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.


I know I'm not going to be the most active regardless of how long the deadline is but I think I've always posted at least once per day. I like to be in multiple games at once and my sleep/work schedule is the opposite of most people in the US. That means my activity level can vary between different days, different games, different dayphases. I do and have intentionally posted less than my average in some games as both alignments for tactical reasons or because I can't be bothered to debate something in the moment but I don't intentionally avoid games. I also never post if I'm not caught up. That is something I'm against in general but when it comes to me personally I'm not even able to do that because I find myself unsure what to say. I also tend to say things in as few as posts as I can. If you scumread me for activity do so with this in mind please.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:21 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 109, Mathdino wrote:I don't know how to respond to the "GL most likely scum on the team" point. I think you misinterpreted me saying "i trust your townreads more than your scumreads" as me saying "i don't trust your alignment", when I really mean "if you're town, i will sheep you on your townreads but not necessarily your scumreads, and in this case i don't think you're onto something".

If it looks like I'm being lazy communicating, you're right. We're in a weird position of having a few players that are likely to post less than once a day. So far the gamestate reads to me as almost all the active players being town too (something I've seen happen). I want to see more people weigh in.

Re: Verydark: I was hard townreading his reaction but I really can't get past the self-vote. People on MS self-vote way too much nowadays and it's gotten to the point of making scum-AtE incredibly viable because no one's willing to lynch that shit.
ah I actually vibe with this a lot

because you're totally right, I thought you saying "I trust your townreads more than your scumreads" was a cheeky way of saying something more akin to "I think you're scum"

UNVOTE:
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:30 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 129, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 119, verydark wrote:
In post 52, Mathdino wrote:NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon

it can be a historic moment

we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business

...this work for you?
In post 6, verydark wrote:Hello everybody! Let’s get some scum!

VOTE: Agent Sparkles
...the post that caused you to want to create a "historical moment"
Oh my god you're so clueless
@Gamma
what was your point with this post?

also, I don't like how Gamma then progresses to this
In post 131, Gamma Emerald wrote:I wasn't sure what my issue with the initial reaction was but this puts it into place. It's that his reactions sorta don't match with much other than scum. His initial reaction was one I figured either mason or scum would have (since either has quite the incentive to not get lynched), but his self-vote completely threw out the possibility of him being mason.
VOTE: very dark
we always lynch this today
a) no, we don't "always" lynch this today
b) a couple of posts ago you called him clueless, now you call him scum. So in your view, how did scum!verydark misinterpret Dino's "historic" comment? Like, let's say verydark is scum and he truly believes that Dino believes that quicklynching him D1 would be "historic". Wouldn't it make sense in verydark's head that it would actually be somewhat 'historic' to quicklynch a scum on D1? Why does he overreact like that to another player
correctly
scumreading him?
c) I don't even really agree that the self-vote strictly means "not mason" tbh
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:33 am

Post by Mathdino »

oh wow i didn't notice

i'm dayvigging anyone who talks about masons thanks

masonhunting is literally role-indicative, please no
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