Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]


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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:41 pm

Post by Sando »

Mathdino wrote:Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.
Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

I was willing to give benefit of doubt with some reasoning on the wagon itself, but combined with the vacillating on the townreads that does not seem to be your playstyle, yeah I think a lot of this was dodgy as hell.
Mathdino wrote:It's a disgusting meta.
Agreed, but you've never actually said why it's a scum meta, and you're tunnelling him now, and you've stated your vote is 'for realsies'. Your reads don't feel like normal Mathdino reads this game.
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:41 pm

Post by verydark »

In post 123, Mathdino wrote:
In post 116, verydark wrote:You certainly had no problem getting me to L-2, so what's the difference? Can we just call your "wagon test" a part of RVS and keep it moving? Only 5 people have even posted in the last few hours.
And yes, wagoning people is literally what RVS is about. The other wagon option was pops, who I was townreading, and Gamma, who made a bad vote but isn't scum for it. You I was nullreading.
So who is your actual scum tell, now that we are exiting RVS?
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:42 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 124, verydark wrote:
In post 121, Mathdino wrote:
I think verydark dropped a strong towntell prior to the self-vote but I also vowed to not let self-voters live due to getting utterly fucked by a super townish scum self-vote in Not_Mafia's game (and getting fucked by Gamma's horribad self-hammer). Call it policy. People who are willing to go so far as to say "LOOK AT ME, JUST GET IT OVER WITH AND HAMMER ME" are very VERY capable of faking those kinds of reactions as scum. It's a disgusting meta.
So can we just chalk this up to newbie? you can look at the last game I played, I didn't even know self-voting was an allowable game mechanic. I'm still getting my "mafia voice". I don't endorse a quick lynch ever though, so let's get it right on D1.
Your quicklynch becomes more likely when you self-vote. That's why I'm trying to figure out the town motivation from it.

Here's the idea:
As town, you should (rightfully) be afraid of a scumhammer on you.

As scum, you know for sure that scum won't just lolhammer you, and most town would avoid doing that.

So you should be much more afraid of being at L-1 as town than scum.

When you freaked the fuck out at your wagon initially, I hard-townread that. Because scum wouldn't really have reason to be afraid.

But then you self-voted, which completely negated your whole "NO DONT LYNCH ME I DONT WANNA DIE" persona.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:45 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 125, Sando wrote:
Mathdino wrote:Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.
Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

I was willing to give benefit of doubt with some reasoning on the wagon itself, but combined with the vacillating on the townreads that does not seem to be your playstyle, yeah I think a lot of this was dodgy as hell.
Mathdino wrote:It's a disgusting meta.
Agreed, but you've never actually said why it's a scum meta, and you're tunnelling him now, and you've stated your vote is 'for realsies'. Your reads don't feel like normal Mathdino reads this game.
Early wagons are reaction tests on everyone. See who jumps on it (and why), see how people react to it (as people are doing). I don't think I need to lecture people here on RVS mafia theory. There was explicitly 0 reasoning on the wagon. So what about it was alignment indicative for me?

See the above post for the uncertainty on verydark.

I'm curious what games specifically you're using as a baseline for my playstyle, since a lot of your read on me is based on it.
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:46 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 119, verydark wrote:
In post 52, Mathdino wrote:NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon

it can be a historic moment

we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business

...this work for you?
In post 6, verydark wrote:Hello everybody! Let’s get some scum!

VOTE: Agent Sparkles
...the post that caused you to want to create a "historical moment"
Oh my god you're so clueless
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:48 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 125, Sando wrote:
Mathdino wrote:Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.
Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

I was willing to give benefit of doubt with some reasoning on the wagon itself, but combined with the vacillating on the townreads that does not seem to be your playstyle, yeah I think a lot of this was dodgy as hell.
Mathdino wrote:It's a disgusting meta.
Agreed, but you've never actually said why it's a scum meta, and you're tunnelling him now, and you've stated your vote is 'for realsies'. Your reads don't feel like normal Mathdino reads this game.
when did you two play together? Also I feel like Mathdino didn't even mean it as a reaction test? But if so I'm feeling like verydank failed.
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:52 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

In post 127, Mathdino wrote:
In post 124, verydark wrote:
In post 121, Mathdino wrote:
I think verydark dropped a strong towntell prior to the self-vote but I also vowed to not let self-voters live due to getting utterly fucked by a super townish scum self-vote in Not_Mafia's game (and getting fucked by Gamma's horribad self-hammer). Call it policy. People who are willing to go so far as to say "LOOK AT ME, JUST GET IT OVER WITH AND HAMMER ME" are very VERY capable of faking those kinds of reactions as scum. It's a disgusting meta.
So can we just chalk this up to newbie? you can look at the last game I played, I didn't even know self-voting was an allowable game mechanic. I'm still getting my "mafia voice". I don't endorse a quick lynch ever though, so let's get it right on D1.
Your quicklynch becomes more likely when you self-vote. That's why I'm trying to figure out the town motivation from it.

Here's the idea:
As town, you should (rightfully) be afraid of a scumhammer on you.

As scum, you know for sure that scum won't just lolhammer you, and most town would avoid doing that.

So you should be much more afraid of being at L-1 as town than scum.

When you freaked the fuck out at your wagon initially, I hard-townread that. Because scum wouldn't really have reason to be afraid.

But then you self-voted, which completely negated your whole "NO DONT LYNCH ME I DONT WANNA DIE" persona.
This. I wasn't sure what my issue with the initial reaction was but this puts it into place. It's that his reactions sorta don't match with much other than scum. His initial reaction was one I figured either mason or scum would have (since either has quite the incentive to not get lynched), but his self-vote completely threw out the possibility of him being mason.
VOTE: very dark
we always lynch this today
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:53 pm

Post by Mathdino »

We're in an ongoing game. I've done very VERY basic meta on him (skimmed ISOs in other games) and basically determined that crazy twisty wallposting is just his playstyle, and isn't scum-indicative. Hence immediate disapproval of GL's scumread on him.

I haven't done extensive meta to actually be able to pick apart his scumgame, but I plan to do so when things calm down a bit. Late-night metadives are relaxing.
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:54 pm

Post by Mathdino »

UNVOTE:

aaand I'll jump off (but leave my vote there in spirit).
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:25 pm

Post by Sando »

I'm curious what games specifically you're using as a baseline for my playstyle, since a lot of your read on me is based on it.
I've read back through a few of your games, and your response like this: "Honestly I think he's just as likely to say something like that as a VT. Scumslips don't happen"; is more like what I've seen from you. Quite decisive, clear on what's a scumtell and what's not. I've yet to see you express this sort of uncertainty over a reaction like this.

I'm really wary of referring to ongoing games, I'm happy to leave this within this game, hence my above quote is from this game, others can read your other games.

You're also not addressing my point: You've pointed out his towntell, you've pointed out how subsequent action to that is really stupid and it pisses you off that others have abused what used to be a towntell. You haven't pointed out what was scummy about it, you've basically said "town and scum both do this". You say "town and scum both do this" a lot from what I've seen, why is this one indicative while others are not?
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:32 pm

Post by Mathdino »

My reads on people go haywire when people self-vote. It's like I shortcircuit. If you asked me pointblank to give a definitive read there, I don't think I could tell you. I do think it objectively deserves rope.

I think the self-vote nullified what was originally going to be the decisive towntell. Read . The towntell was specifically him freaking out at being on the brink of dying (because oh no scum could hammer me). This is completely nullified to hell and back with the self-vote, which is a clear indication of apathy as to what happens to him (and an indication that I don't really want him in the game).

It's inconsistent. Anyone who goes far enough to AtE the game up by self-voting is capable of faking that as scum. If it was just the "stop voting me guys" shit, I'd be townreading that (and assuming that he wouldn't fake that as scum).

So I guess I scumlean him due to the inconsistency. But I'm also mad policythirsty right now.
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:03 pm

Post by Sando »

Mathdino wrote:Early wagons are reaction tests on everyone.
See who jumps on it (and why)
,
see how people react to it (as people are doing)
. I don't think I need to lecture people here on RVS mafia theory. There was explicitly 0 reasoning on the wagon. So what about it was alignment indicative for me?
Because you've done zero of
bold
or
italics
, and now you're just tunnelling and calling for a policy lynch of the wagon target. You've actually written off
bold
as a joke, hence my frustration post.
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:05 pm

Post by Sando »

By zero of italics I mean other than verydarks, you haven't looked at anyone on or off the wagon is my point.
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:07 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Kmd started it (and is town). NSG is town for other reasons. dave isn't really easy to read. I'm still developing my read on GL. And no one else jumped on it.

Gamma is reacting to it still. verydark produced an inconsistent reaction. And you're sitting here talking to me.

I don't have all my reads ready yet but the fact that you don't see results from me fucking around early game doesn't mean what I do lacks purpose.

Consider that not everyone would get the Team Mafia in-jokes (which I was completely aware of), and reactions to THAT could also be potentially AI.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:24 pm

Post by popsofctown »

In post 79, verydark wrote: I literally just finished a newbie game, and only have 4 games under my belt TOTAL (from 7 years ago). I was just RVSing. Chill out, good grief.
I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.
I don't think most people finish their second game and still take L-3 seriously.
Based on no data or rigor at all I expect mostly mountainous opens to mostly attract veterans so I'm probably treating everyone that way by default. As are other perhaps.


In post 83, northsidegal wrote:
In post 77, Mathdino wrote:Explain?
i just expected a "hypocrisy isn't a scumtell", remember you saying that before and it's stuck in my head i guess.
In post 85, GuiltyLion wrote:hypocrisy is more of a towntell if anything

I actually kind of like that Sando tried to throw my own language back at me, not sure that scum would go straight for the snark there, but he still hasn't offered a good scumread or vote so far
I come back here, there's some new abbreviation called NIA, and it looks too similar to IIoA which makes me worry that acronym perished, and then somehow there is a majority sentiment against "hypocrisy is a scumtell". Time to go watch Robin Williams perform in Jumanji again.


In post 97, GuiltyLion wrote: b) I didn't ask anyone for approval before voting verydark. And also, frankly, I'm not some wuss scum who is too scared to make a vote on my own, I've been around the block and played tons of scumgames. Also as a math major, even if you were spot on with this point, two data points does not make a pattern.
The part about mafia was o.k., but you can't try to supplant the English meaning of pattern over the mathematical definition of a pattern, then call it math. The requirements for any structure in mathematics is generally less than what's needed in English layman's terms. A point is technically a degenerate triangle. 2 points is very much a line segment, which is drawn in a patterned way. And when my first grade teacher took points off because I was asked to color 10 boxes in using crayons and make a pattern, and I colored them all red, I was correct, not she.

If you mean to talk about statistics or science, those are slightly different from mathematics and you should be specific. I'm sure 2 points is really poor work in statistics.
In post 130, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 125, Sando wrote:
Mathdino wrote:Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.
But if so I'm feeling like verydank failed.
That's not a kind nickname. You can play scum, don't be it though.


@verydark: You claim you did not know that self voting was a permissible action. And I believe you on this. I do not believe you completed four games and didn't learn that unvoting is a permissible action. Why didn't that follow after you realized the gravity of what you'd done?
At first i was willing, perhaps too willing, to accept that explanation. But it seems a bit off. It seems like he demands his behavior be characterized a certain way, yet refuses to even play the part, lest he be seen to be behaving like an actor.

Fixed formatting.
Last edited by Aster on Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:25 pm

Post by popsofctown »

NOOOO BBCODE GORE
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Post by davesaz »

Hate when that happens, have learned to hit preview almost every time.

I think 139 looks town motivated.
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:31 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

how is dank rude?
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:35 pm

Post by popsofctown »

spoilered is the lmgtfy :
dank
daNGk/Submit
adjective
adjective: dank; comparative adjective: danker; superlative adjective: dankest
disagreeably damp, musty, and typically cold.
synonyms: damp, musty, chilly, clammy, moist, wet, unaired, humid
"the dank basement"
antonyms: dry
Origin
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:41 pm

Post by Mathdino »

I already think pops is town so just gonna take dave's word on it until pops reposts it to be something actually readable :lol:
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:43 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 139, popsofctown wrote:I come back here, there's some new abbreviation called NIA, and it looks too similar to IIoA which makes me worry that acronym perished, and then somehow there is a majority sentiment against "hypocrisy is a scumtell". Time to go watch Robin Williams perform in Jumanji again.
I mean NSG following The Way of the Dinosaur makes me happy and all, but if you have evidence that hypocrisy more often comes from scum than town, I'll modify my toolbox.

As it is I'm a pretty Bayesian type. I see town being raging hypocrites more often than I see scum doing it. I have a whole list of "things people think are scumtells that are not scumtells". Most of them WERE scumtells like 5 years ago but have faded with changing site meta.
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:44 pm

Post by Sando »

It's butchered bad, that is not my quote as that post makes out :P

I'm not understanding pops first point, probs due to gore, about NIA and IIoA (I don't know what this second one is).
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:45 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Information Instead of Analysis. A fantastic scumtell, but not one that people fall into very often because of how obvious it is.
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Post by Sando »

Mathdino wrote:but if you have evidence that hypocrisy more often comes from scum than town, I'll modify my toolbox.
Do you mean hypocrisy as in "
you did the same thing as me, it's scummy from you but not from me
", or "
person A and person B did the same thing, I read person A as scummy and person B as town
". There's a town motivation for the first, since they know they're alignment, so yeah they tend to be hypocritical there. But if you think something is scummy, to selectively apply it between two people you ostensibly don't have alignment info about, that doesn't have a town motivation.

Or are you just saying townies are idiots and cause this not to be a useful tell?
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:56 pm

Post by popsofctown »

At mathdino's request
darksides wrote: I literally just finished a newbie game, and only have 4 games under my belt TOTAL (from 7 years ago). I was just RVSing. Chill out, good grief.
I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.
I don't think most people finish their second game and still take L-3 seriously.
Based on no data or rigor at all I expect mostly mountainous opens to mostly attract veterans so I'm probably treating everyone that way by default. As are other perhaps.


In post 83, northsidegal wrote:
In post 77, Mathdino wrote:Explain?
i just expected a "hypocrisy isn't a scumtell", remember you saying that before and it's stuck in my head i guess.
In post 85, GuiltyLion wrote:hypocrisy is more of a towntell if anything

I actually kind of like that Sando tried to throw my own language back at me, not sure that scum would go straight for the snark there, but he still hasn't offered a good scumread or vote so far
I come back here, there's some new abbreviation called NIA, and it looks too similar to IIoA which makes me worry that acronym perished, and then somehow there is a majority sentiment against "hypocrisy is a scumtell". Time to go watch Robin Williams perform in Jumanji again.


Liondude with the calvin and hobbes avatar wrote:In b) I didn't ask anyone for approval before voting verydark. And also, frankly, I'm not some wuss scum who is too scared to make a vote on my own, I've been around the block and played tons of scumgames. Also as a math major, even if you were spot on with this point, two data points does not make a pattern.
The part about mafia was o.k., but you can't try to supplant the English meaning of pattern over the mathematical definition of a pattern, then call it math. The requirements for any structure in mathematics is generally less than what's needed in English layman's terms. A point is technically a degenerate triangle. 2 points is very much a line segment, which is drawn in a patterned way. And when my first grade teacher took points off because I was asked to color 10 boxes in using crayons and make a pattern, and I colored them all red, I was correct, not she.

If you mean to talk about statistics or science, those are slightly different from mathematics and you should be specific. I'm sure 2 points is really poor work in statistics.
In post 130, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 125, Sando wrote:
Mathdino wrote:Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.
But if so I'm feeling like verydank failed.
That's not a kind nickname. You can play scum, don't be it though.


@verydark: You claim you did not know that self voting was a permissible action. And I believe you on this. I do not believe you completed four games and didn't learn that unvoting is a permissible action. Why didn't that follow after you realized the gravity of what you'd done?
At first i was willing, perhaps too willing, to accept that explanation. But it seems a bit off. It seems like he demands his behavior be characterized a certain way, yet refuses to even play the part, lest he be seen to be behaving like an actor.[/quote]
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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