Open 722: Red Flag [Endgame]

[callforjudgement]

Even after reading the scum PT I still don't understand the KTS kill. It's not explained there either.

The most I can make out was that scum were planning to kill KTS to stop him pushing TheBrie and then for some reason didn't change their minds even after TheBrie got lynched?

i had enough scum pinned to win the game even if cj died. pisskop was in both of my teams and my general poe. hiraki was the only place i was fooled.

After a CJ kill N1, scum could have let you push a mislynch or two and then kill you before you got to the correct reads. You had enough scum there, but not towards the top of your remaining reads list.

[callforjudgement]

By the way, here's my setup that was partially inspired by this one.

[Killthestory]

Even after reading the scum PT I still don't understand the KTS kill. It's not explained there either.

The most I can make out was that scum were planning to kill KTS to stop him pushing TheBrie and then for some reason didn't change their minds even after TheBrie got lynched?

i had enough scum pinned to win the game even if cj died. pisskop was in both of my teams and my general poe. hiraki was the only place i was fooled.

After a CJ kill N1, scum could have let you push a mislynch or two and then kill you before you got to the correct reads. You had enough scum there, but not towards the top of your remaining reads list.

pisskop came after teacher always. they could have killed pisskop afterwards, i guess, but at that point math reveals himself, and my deepwolves consist of bb, you and hiraki. my hiraki read was very flimsy this game, but my townreads were very consistent. i was likely never to shoot in my strong, strong reads.

[callforjudgement]

What confuses me is how people can read pisskop based on that small an amount of content.

There was actually a scummy post in his ISO, but only one; hardly enough to get a real read. I know Creature thought that pisskop was town, and then later scum because he was lurking

too

much, but he'd actually just siteflaked, which is always null as it's unlikely to have had anything to do with the game.

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't have a strong scumread on him but poe + a combination of posts i didn't like (i think i mentioned this in one or two posts) + i didn't like a lot of BV's posts

[callforjudgement]

Right, I had a scumread on BV by the end (I correctly read him as trying to save BBT, even though I was wrong as to the reason behind it).

It's the fairly strong reads on pisskop that I saw D1 and D2 (and early D3) that confuse me.

[callforjudgement]

BTW, about the setup: I did an EV calculation, and scum killing each other is actually negative EV (although in the case of a D1 scum lynch, the difference is very small, less than 1%). It may still be the best strategy based on dayplay, though.

[RadiantCowbells]

EV calculations based on random lynching are a poor approximation for mafia games. I would say that scum killing each other is the correct option most of the time.

[zMuffinMan]

different people get different reads for different reasons, i suppose

for example, i genuinely did think that BV's first post made him very likely to be scum

this line in particular:

Looks like it's basically white flag at this point so one more scum lynch should be a win.

i think i went over this at some point (i got pretty lazy towards the end though so i stopped iso-diving)

[zMuffinMan]

(the point im trying to make with the above post is that i could see someone else reading pk's posts and getting a read on him they thought was solid for whatever reason even if it didn't make sense to me)

[Green Crayons]

Thank you for not punching BBT.

[Green Crayons]

Lynching too

[Green Crayons]

This is a weird setup. Don’t know if I would play again. (I honestly didn’t know what I was replacing into I just wanted to play.)

I think my disinterest in the setup is that there is no active component to the town roles. I very much enjoy VT, but I like when there is some mechanic that at least some townsperson can be doing to actively assist a win. Adds a bit of layer to the otherwise pure personality/voting deduction.

[Green Crayons]

Hating on infolynches will always be right.

[Green Crayons]

And links to vote posts were a nice touch.

[callforjudgement]

The only reasons to infolynch are:

a) When there's a very close tie between two highly scummy players, to lynch the one that's more likely to help you solve the game if you're wrong (I would have avoided lynching MathDino today if he was closely tied with BBT or BV, as those flips would be much more useful in solving the setup)
b) When it's part of a breaking strategy, and you have a guaranteed win if the lynch target flips town.

These are both very rare situations.

[northsidegal]

if you all enjoyed my modding this game, i have a mini normal in signups if any of you are interested

[Fumuki]

Hmmm, I would play in this setup again for sure. Though in this setup specifically I would enjoy playing as scum. Sounds fun.

Yeah, I think everyone already said it but hard bussing here is a bad idea if it's not the entire team bussing, and scum team probably need or to force your way through a day 2 to victory or to kill the weakest scums at night.

I mean, I think the most fun day in this setup will always be a day 2 with a ratio of 4:7. Principally if some members of the scum team are suspected, because if they go to day 3 with a ratio of 4:5, it is almost a win, however they can't be too forceful to make the mislynch happen.

And a huge thanks for NSG to modding this game.

Oh, and although a little late, thanks for modding Micro 801 CFJ, and thanks for the advice here as well. (by the way, can I put some of your commentaries about me in my sign? Like, I really think they are funny)

[callforjudgement]

Sure. I think the first one you quoted is the best, but it's up to you.

[TheBrie]

So I guess it's fairly like 2:11 vanilla – my previous example of a highly skewed setup – in how the game feels. The exception is D1, which is a lot of fun. I already came up with a way to effectively extract Red Flag's D1 into its own, balanced setup (which should also have the advantage of being fast to play as it's only one day). I need to go post it over in Open Setups Discussion.

Oooh, interesting.

[BlackVoid]

@northsidegal, I'd definitely play this setup again. I think removing the scum's ability to kill themselves might swing it too hard in the town's favor. Maybe an acceptable compromise might be to only allow scum to kill themselves once? I liked the post numbers in VCs. It helped me catch up better. Good job modding overall.

@CFJ, personally I don't think the walls are unhelpful at all and regardless of alignment, I generally find walls easier to read than spammy posts - as long as they were a compilation of all your thoughts in the game which your walls definitely were. On the other hand, when people make a lot of "x is scum" posts and no reasoning behind it, it's much harder to figure out what they were thinking. Breaking walls into separate posts won't make a difference as long as the content is the same but I guess it might appeal to people who dislike reading walls.

there are a lot of things i don't really understand about how scum played this setup (the D1 bussing, the N1 kill which... luckily for them led to a teacher lynch somehow instead of CJ... and a few other things)

I'm curious how you would have played it if you replaced Pisskop for instance. It seemed like the game was already POE'd and there weren't many options.

[zMuffinMan]

it's hard to say. i think on replacing in, i might have tried to have a much stronger presence (in a kind of attempt to make people forget pisskop was a lurker and focus on how nice and shiny i was) and i probably would have tried to get out of the POE pool as quickly as possible (i guess mostly by focusing on faking analysis, acting like i was trying to find scum in whatever way i could, etc)

i can't really say what specific pushes i'd have done and when, but i think if i couldn't turn my slot around, i'd at least just go for avoiding the lynch (by whatever means necessary) and copping the kill at night

i think hiraki might have made it to lylo. i'm not 100% sure why you guys thought your chances were so dire

if i hadn't unvoted BBT and his lynch had gone through, i wouldn't have looked the best. mathdino had some suspicion coming his way from other people. archwing did too. GC hadn't posted all that much the first time BBT hit L-1 so it's hard to say how things would have gone with him after that. CFJ-mathdino seemed to have mutual paranoia on some level. creature probably wasn't lynchable but he probably wasn't an immediate threat to hiraki

*shrug*

i didn't see hiraki's chances being all that bad. he'd have at least got to lylo probably - after that it depends i guess

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is kind of off topic but when did PK become a lurker? I noticed a few people mention it throughout the game and it struck me as odd because the last time I was on this site PK was a spam poster - easily 700+ posts per game.

[callforjudgement]

Last time I played in a setup that pisskop was

modding

, I had to prod him repeatedly, and eventually get the listmods to prod him (they appointed a backup mod). I concluded that if pisskop was going to lurk even in that situation, where he had every incentive to post and no chance of harming a win condition by doing so, he was going to lurk regardless. That was back in September.

[Scummies]

Congratulations to the victors!

The game has drawn to a close, the jig is up! Some of you have lost, but others have won!

Take a few days, think about the game. Recognize what was best in your teammates and opponents, and consider nominating them for a Scummy! Players and mods in this game may be eligible for one of the following awards:

BODY OF WORK AWARDS

Best Mafia Catcher

: Also known as the Paragon of Mafia Hunters, this award is given to the single town player who, across all of their games for the year, exhibited the best ability for nailing those dirty scumbags and bringing the bad guys to justice while playing as a pro-town role.

Rising Star

: This award is given to the player that is a rising star in the game of mafia, showing great promise to join the elite echelon of mafia players. This award replaces both the Best Newbie award and Most Improved Player awards, and judges may consider elements of both those previous awards in deciding this award.

Excellent Moderation

: Also known as the “The Modfather” Award. This award is given to the moderator who, over the course of the past year, exemplifies the best qualities of a moderator in the operation of the game, including but not limited to quality and frequency of vote counts, organization of the game, dealing with issues that arise, keeping players active, and so forth. Judges may consider how challenging the games a moderator ran were, but they shall not penalize a moderator for only running more basic games. A mod must run at least 3 games to completion in the calendar year to be considered for this award.

SINGLE GAME - PLAYER

Most Cunning Manipulator

: Also known as the “Don Corleone” Award. Awarded to the player who has the strongest single game performance as mafia. In rare cases, where a player feels an entire scumteam gelled to create a strong cohesive scum performance, multiple members of a team may be nominated.

Best Performance Third Party

: Also known as the “Hannibal Lecter” Award. Awarded to the player or players that performed the most impressively in winning their game as a third party.

Most Memorable Event

: Also known as the “Kodak Moment” Award. Awarded to the player or players who were involved in the most memorable event in a game of mafia. Fake claims, funny claims, awesome exchanges, etc. may all be considered for this award

SINGLE GAME - MODERATOR

Best Setup

: Also known as the “Rube Goldberg” Award. Given to the moderator who designed the best setup. Judges may consider the roles involved in a game, how those roles interacted, how balanced a setup was, whether it furthered any particular theme, how the setup interacts with a mechanic, or any other factors the judges deem relevant. This award is distinct, however, from the “Best Mechanic” award in that it does not consider how good or bad any change to the basic way a Mafia game is played.

Best Flavor Text

: Also known as the “Paperback Writer” Award. Given to the moderator who wrote the most compelling flavor text. Judges should consider the flavor text of all parts of the game, including Role PMs and Day/Night scenes. Where appropriate, Judges may consider how well the flavor works with the announced theme.

Best Mechanic/Mutation

: Also known as the "Mad Scientist” Award. Given to the moderator who figured out the most compelling way to change the basic mechanics of the game of mafia, and/or created the most compelling new role or adaptation to increase player enjoyment. Judges shall consider both the basic idea behind the game as well as how well it was executed, and the uniqueness and quality of the role/adaptation.

SITE AWARDS

Game of the Year

: Also known as the “Player’s Choice” Award. This award is given to the moderator of a game. It is given in recognition of the overall excellence of a game. The Game of the Year award is a "catch all" award for the best overall game throughout the entire year, considering all aspects of the game from moderator quality, to the excellent design and composition of the game, to the performance and cohesion of the playerlist. A Game of the Year is meant to be the game that we can all point to later and say "This game was the best game the site could offer that year in terms of Design, Playerlist, and moderating capability." This is a PUBLIC VOTE. [/color]

The

2018 Scummies thread

is located here.
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