Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!

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Post Post #100  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:19 pm

Votecount 1.03

Keyser Söze (3) - Sesq , Reundo , 2 718281828459
2 718281828459 (2) - Poseidon , Keyser Söze
GameNBurger (1) - volxen
Irrelephant11 (1) - Ausuka
Dunnstral (1) - Irrelephant11

Not voting: Dunnstral, GameNBurger, Kop, northsidegal

The deadline for Day 1 is 1:52 pm CT on Tuesday, September 4, in (expired on 2018-09-04 14:51:53).

Mod notes
    - With 12 players, it would take 7 votes to hammer someone and possibly end the day early. (Just realized I forgot to say this before, sorry.)
    - Kop has picked up his role PM, so his prod timers will proceed as normal. (Also realized I forgot to mention this, doubly-sorry.)
    - Finally, some friendly advice: Please read the pronouns of all the other players, and do your best to remember them and use them properly.

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Post Post #101  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:41 pm

In post 92, Keyser Söze wrote:Miss-repping what I said.

I don’t give a **** if you all want speculate past page 1 about the setup or best way to play it.

But I won’t be. That’s pre-game talk and shouldn’t dominate early game progression.

It does not have to "dominate" the progression, but it should either be answered or not asked at all until day 2 when the strategy actually applies. The way you suddenly act like it is classified information for seemingly no reason pinged me as someone under panic.

Bad reason, bad vote. I am in no way obstructing town to discuss “forbidden” topics. I don’t understand how you get to scum-keyser after that limp scum case. I hate the timing of this vote.

No, this is what happens when I start writing a post noncommittally and then become more convinced as I am writing this.
In post 91, I should have wrote:Hmmm.

Keyser seems scum for now. Why is Keyser wanting to limit the forbidden topic to page 1? (And why not wait until day 2, when the forbidden topic actually becomes a thing that can be done?)

Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I can forgive that. 50 is much better because he looks at multiple different people even after only coming to a read on one of them.

I kind of am concerned about Keyser, so VOTE: Keyser.
I am not in that good of a mood, so do not expect any more reads from me at this time.



OK, this:
In post 95, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 91, 2 718281828459 wrote:Reundo's 46 is a little annoying but I like how he looked at everyone.

Which observations from Reundo strengthened your good feel about him? (“Like”)

I don’t have town points on him yet.

Just the way that Reundo looked at NSG and GNB. This early in the game, three reads can be a fair start, especially for someone who is inactive.
Retired Account. I have no replacement.

Please be kind to Allomancer and join the nomic game: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=78211

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Post Post #102  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:07 pm

The 3 simple reads Reundo expressed did not fill me with the same confidence.

He’ll have to provide a few more deeper/visceral reads before I click the like button.



RE: “panic” - what is scum-me so panicked about? I still don’t understand how ‘scum-keyser-wanting-to-keep-forbidden-topic-to-page-1’ is an actual thing...? Show me why you think that a scum player does this (versus a town player). For what gain?

Moreover, explain to me why a player concerned with “classified information” can only come from scum (and not a townie who personally does not want to discuss the setup past page 1?)

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Post Post #103  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:16 pm

In post 51, Keyser Söze wrote:- choosing to chip in with an irrelevant snippet over a non-issue (does it even matter? Is cesq town for saying this, is my reaction scummy/irrational?) what was the goal of your post... to say I am a liar? to say I am scum?


Something's not "irrelevant" just because you say it is. I didn't like you calling your posts "non-alignment indicative" as soon as someone alluded to them being scummy, and comparing your question to "a player asking if there is day chat", something that I didn't think was "non-alignment indicative" at all, only irked me more, so it felt important enough for me to address.

In post 51, Keyser Söze wrote:- failure to see how I think arguing over non-alignment/irrelevant items are a waste of time... but still wanting to start it all back up again...


I brought it up again because there was something in your post that bothered me that wasn't really addressed. Why should I care that you personally thought it was a waste of time if it was something that you yourself posted that pinged me?

In post 51, Keyser Söze wrote:- presuming "defensive"/""driving discussion away" is scum alignment indicative (my action was pro-town). Discussing whether I think I could gain town cred for post #13 is laughable and inane.


But the thing was it seemed like you were "driving discussion away" from discussion that put you in a bad light. Like, the first time you said "let's stop talking about this" was when you were in an argument with northsidegal, and then the next time was when I responded negatively to one of your posts. It could just be coincidence, but in these cases it would be pretty beneficial for you as scum to change the subject.

In post 51, Keyser Söze wrote:- me forgetting that this is an open set-up RE: scum day chat is a talking issue...?


Yes, because I thought it was a dumb excuse to cover up your mistake. Why would you even suggest hypoclaiming if you didn't know we were guaranteed to have a power role that would benefit from hypoclaiming? Fine, maybe you did just forget we were in an open game, but then the way you tacked on "obviously" at the end didn't read like you were earnestly admitting your mistake, instead trying to boomerang it back to me to make it seem like it was my fault I didn't catch something so "obvious".

In post 51, Keyser Söze wrote:- "I don't think it would be too unreasonable for someone to town-read you for trying to strike up conversation" is this you disagreeing with me or you saying I am scum, or both?


I was disagreeing with the notion that your questions aren't alignment-readable. I wasn't really set on voting you until your follow-up.

In post 51, Keyser Söze wrote:Now tell me why town-me can't think your entrance can be hideous and lazy (you called me "weirdly defensive").

Tell me why town-me can't regret making post #13 in the first place, and that we should move on swiftly.

"sorry to disappoint but I don't really have any "charged feelings" about anything else".. tell me why that shouldn't frustrate/intrigue town-me.


(if you can explain to me scum motivation for all three points I'll be more convinced of your scum read of me. please make your reply more coherent than mine :giggle: )


I can't answer these questions the way you phrased them, because I don't believe that you can't do any of the above as town, but I highly doubt your scum game consists of only things you can't possibly do as town. Yes, I believe town!you can view my entrance as "hideous" and "lazy", but I believe that scum!you can absolutely do this too, and in this case attacking someone who attacks you has obvious benefits as scum. Town!you can regret making post #13, but it would also make sense for scum!you to regret it too when players start hounding you for it. I don't know about the last point tbh. I admit, this would be a pretty unorthodox playstyle from you if you are scum, and I'm still trying to figure out whether or not this is outside your scum range, but basically there's not much you've posted that really shoots yourself in the foot if you are scum, and a lot of what bothers me also happens to benefit you from a scum perspective.

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Post Post #104  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:30 pm

In post 22, GameNBurger wrote:Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town

Anyways let that be a lesson to never do gametheory math late at night because youre bound to make idioitic mistakes, theres still a not great part of the stupidly simple model i used that doesn't account for the fact that T contains M in it, I should have broken it into P=t+M for more generalized use to make the death equation a bit easier to see the relationships


Why did you feel the need to "remind" us not to townread you for posting a mathematical proof? I find it a bit odd to automatically assume that people would give you free towncred just for that one early game contribution. I get your point about people making the mistake of townreading based on effort alone, but I really don't think it was necessary to explicitly say that you don't deserve towncred for sharing a mathematical proof.

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Post Post #105  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:45 am

In post 103, Reundo wrote:I don't believe that you can't do any of the above as town

Ok, you're not as close-minded as I first thought :giggle: But your list of scum tells are still terrible :(

In quick reply to your wall:

- town can call their own posts non-alignment indicative when accused of being scummy.
- both town and scum can ask if there is day chat.
- a town player can show concern if they think going down an avenue will be unproductive.
- a town player can be very concerned about being put in "bad light" for unjust causes.
- a town player can stubbornly push to try to change the subject if they think it won't help find scum.
- townies can make dumb mistakes and provide incorrect examples.
- town can "attack" the player attacking them.


Do you have any thoughts of other players?

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Post Post #106  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:23 am

Ausuka, Poseidon and Dunnstral really need to start posting in this game. Going to take a break.

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Post Post #107  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:44 am

In post 104, volxen wrote:
In post 22, GameNBurger wrote:Also nobody dare TR me for that I did a bunch of shitty math only to come to the conclusion that its business as usual as far as claiming goes
in my last game a bunch of people town read me simply for effort and It blew my fucking minds as to why
I put up with it because I was town and people were having a hard time reading me but I'd like to get it out there that effort is not a one to one correlation with scuminess
a lack of effort is a good indicator of scum but a presence of effort does not indicate town

Anyways let that be a lesson to never do gametheory math late at night because youre bound to make idioitic mistakes, theres still a not great part of the stupidly simple model i used that doesn't account for the fact that T contains M in it, I should have broken it into P=t+M for more generalized use to make the death equation a bit easier to see the relationships


Why did you feel the need to "remind" us not to townread you for posting a mathematical proof? I find it a bit odd to automatically assume that people would give you free towncred just for that one early game contribution. I get your point about people making the mistake of townreading based on effort alone, but I really don't think it was necessary to explicitly say that you don't deserve towncred for sharing a mathematical proof.


Yeah, we kind of already covered this? It's on one of the three pages between the post you quoted and the post you wrote. There's nothing else you'd like to comment on?

VOTE: Sesq

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Post Post #108  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:02 pm

So I'm back for a while

Let me weigh on some shit

@NORTH:

Short summary of my last game, i'd do some game theory stuff or long pairing posts that were like open notes, which is just my style of play for the most part but people kept saying "this is never town" which is just the dumbest assumption

I know lazy scum is a popular strat on this site but god damn somebody's gotta break the circlejerk rip tides because scum could just easily coast by putting in effort in note taking

Thats probably the largest reason why i felt the need to comment on it ahead of time since I really hated having to just not say anything in the interest of the town not flip flopping more than it already did that game, not only that but if scum tries to ride out a similar strat of just putting in over the top effort and taking town cred from people I want to be able to call it out with scum potentially being armed with ammo of me keeping quiet in the case that anyone gives me towncred

And I don't buy into that shit of "act bad then attract scum who try and attacks you or buys into it" because town has every right reason to call you out on that as scum does so its just a big showy waste of everyone's time that will cast doubt on ones self to the rest of the town

@Volxen
How have you missed my references to my previous game being the main hitch that motivates my action its in the quote you quoted

@IRELLEPHANT
Hey you wanna explain that sesq vote
Ironically that reminds me of the small amount of familiarity with Sesq's MO i have

I'm gonna put my Keyser thoughts in a seperate post

Again if i've missed anything directed at me please point it out so I can answer

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Post Post #109  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:41 pm

I don't really have scumreads and idk what to say :(

Irre why is Sesq scum?

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Post Post #110  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:45 pm

Got a few things to take care of today but it looks like a good amount of info to read

In the meantime. Even though I didn’t like the early train
UNVOTE:

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Post Post #111  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:54 pm

Spoiler: northsidegal
I guess I'm about null here? Like, there's scumhunting in her ISO, but I guess something feels off about it. It's like she's pursuing GNB but she never really, like, follows up past pressing on one specific point and then doing the same thing to Irrelephant? Maybe this is just like playstyle and I'm reading too much into it but I feel like town having a seemingly fairly strong scumread there is likely to, like, try and drive a wagon early there and see how people react to that?

Spoiler: Sesq
their posts are a rollercoaster ride to the point where if they flipped red I'd be actually impressed with the acting. also I don't really see the scum motivation exactly for saying "oh i tr you nope jk i scumread you"- it's so convoluted that I think the simplest explanation is that they're just town tbh.

Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)
First thought is that I like - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in ; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

Spoiler: Keyser Söze
looks to be genuinely scumhunting? I guess I could see how he's being defensive but I don't think it's scummy to be defensive tbh. Also I kinda get where he's coming from w/ Reundo. I think he's wrong about 2.718 but like when somebody comes into the thread like that with a case you don't understand at all it's understandable that you would vote for that person.

Spoiler: volxen
not an incredible lot to say - his contributions are kind of active lurking-ish?

Spoiler: GameNBurger
I don't feel qualified to judge his mathy plan because I don't really understand a word of it :oops: I guess I kinda like his "don't townread me for mathing" thing; I agree with this- I think scum very much like to hide behind mechanics generally- and it makes sense that if something annoys him he wouldn't want it in the game, even if it's helpful to him personally.

Spoiler: Irrelephant11
I think I kinda understand where his tr on nsg is coming from in that she was being gamesolvy? In general I find his posts as, uh, "adequate" more than anything else. I don't exactly scumread his approach but it's also not that towny and I don't get why he's fixated on Dunnstral specifically; what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?

Spoiler: Reundo
I kinda dislike his entrance. Like, with Sesq and Keyser, I can see both sides - I don't think keyser's opening was LAMIST but I can totally see how somebody could see it that way. I almost feel like he's trying to push Keyser? but holding back for some reason. I don't see how it's really supposed to be scum-indicative for someone to dislike their posts being portrayed as lamist. The whole scum daychat thing appears to be kinda irrelevant? Like, I don't see the argument that Keyser as scum for some reason uses scum daychat as an example of something NAI whereas town!Keyser acknowledges it's NAI and moves on. What could the scum motivation ever be for lying in such an insignificant way? I also don't get why it's scummy to say "this is NAI" when someone pushes you for things you think are NAI. I also don't see how it's scum motivated to stop talking about his sr on Sesq as scum; I don't think scum would really mind repeating the same thing over and over at all? And why does scum!keyser pretend to forget about hypoclaiming? Like I might just be being stupid but I don't understand this at all.


@gamenburger: you mentioned keyser was being a bit stiff about sesq. can you like elaborate on if that actually makes you scumread him?

@volxen: why do you think scum!GNB argues that people will tr him for mechanics when he doesn't actually believe that?

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Post Post #112  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:10 pm

I just wanted to move my vote to someone more interesting/confusing
Agreed with Ausuka though that it's slightly towny how Sesq self-contradicts within a post

Disagree with Ausuka about VOTE: 2.178, who seems maybe overeager to justify eir own actions? on re-read

Ausuka you asked "what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?"
This is my question exactly. What does Dunnstral want us to think about him making only one mechanic-related post? Does he want us to just forget about him? Why avoid RVS if he felt RVS wasn't over? Why say so little if he thought RVS was over? Out of those with little to no content, his slot was and is most interesting to me (like 2% interesting, compared to other slots' 0%), which is why I brought him up.

Agreed re:Reundo overreacting to Keyser. I've done the same to Keyser though

In post 108, GameNBurger wrote:And I don't buy into that shit of "act bad then attract scum who try and attacks you or buys into it" because town has every right reason to call you out on that as scum does so its just a big showy waste of everyone's time that will cast doubt on ones self to the rest of the town


When you say you don't "buy into" it, do you mean you don't believe people who say it or you just think it's bad play from town?

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Post Post #113  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:04 pm

Kop has been prodded. He has (expired on 2018-08-24 18:04:40) to post before I start searching for his replacement.

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Post Post #114  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:18 pm

HI GNB, just trying to put together the two following statements in my head:
In post 55, GameNBurger wrote:Keyser if you haven’t played wih sesq before from what I rmember sesq has a laizefair attitude and tone to their posts and keeps to themself or atleast that’s how I rmember his playstyle looking

In post 55, GameNBurger wrote:Although to be fair I played scum with them I think the last time I played with them

Have you played with town-sesq displaying the same "laizefair attitude and tone"/"keeps to themselves" or was that just scum-sesq?
Or are you saying his playstyle is not indicative of alignment...?
Didn't quite understand your 'defence' of him... if you agree he is indeed showing signs of his scum-meta.


In post 55, GameNBurger wrote:I think keyser is being a bit stiff on all the sesq stuff

In your previous games with him, or this current game: do you think it would be rational to expect for a townie to be "stiff" in reaction to sesq's posts?

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Post Post #115  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:50 pm

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: northsidegal
I guess I'm about null here? Like, there's scumhunting in her ISO, but I guess something feels off about it. It's like she's pursuing GNB but she never really, like, follows up past pressing on one specific point and then doing the same thing to Irrelephant? Maybe this is just like playstyle and I'm reading too much into it but I feel like town having a seemingly fairly strong scumread there is likely to, like, try and drive a wagon early there and see how people react to that?

Good observation. I agree that NSG has been scumhunting very softly so far (not even one vote yet?). But perhaps nothing has pinged her scumdar very strongly yet. Something to keep an eye on.

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: Sesq
their posts are a rollercoaster ride to the point where if they flipped red I'd be actually impressed with the acting. also I don't really see the scum motivation exactly for saying "oh i tr you nope jk i scumread you"- it's so convoluted that I think the simplest explanation is that they're just town tbh.

I personally wouldn't jump to town lean/read yet. I wanted sesq to open up about their s/read of me, because right now I'm wondering if he actually realises his scum read/vote of me is not actually supported with anything tangible, and not possessing the town-humility to unvote (...states reasons why I'm town, but then posts "vote stays") :giggle: Didn't like him describing his own play/posting as "nuanced", as if he's super aware of it (that's probably just a pet-hate of mine though). He remains near null for me. Let's see if he can share more solid thoughts/reads.

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)
First thought is that I like - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in ; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

I must put my hand up and admit the development of his scum read does look town-iesh :shifty: But I cannot get past him saying "Why is Keyser wanting to limit the forbidden topic to page 1?" as if that was scum alignment indicative. I'm not convinced 2.718 is town yet. I'd like him to explain what he meant when he presented this narrative about me being scum-in-panic-mode...?

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Post Post #116  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:07 pm

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: Keyser Söze
looks to be genuinely scumhunting? I guess I could see how he's being defensive but I don't think it's scummy to be defensive tbh. Also I kinda get where he's coming from w/ Reundo. I think he's wrong about 2.718 but like when somebody comes into the thread like that with a case you don't understand at all it's understandable that you would vote for that person.

I think you're the first person to understand my defensive disposition this game. Well done. Can I jump in your pocket? :giggle:

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: Irrelephant11
I think I kinda understand where his tr on nsg is coming from in that she was being gamesolvy? In general I find his posts as, uh, "adequate" more than anything else. I don't exactly scumread his approach but it's also not that towny and I don't get why he's fixated on Dunnstral specifically; what thoughts are people supposed to have about Dunnstral considering he's only made one mechanic-related post back in RVS?

If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: Reundo
I kinda dislike his entrance. Like, with Sesq and Keyser, I can see both sides - I don't think keyser's opening was LAMIST but I can totally see how somebody could see it that way. I almost feel like he's trying to push Keyser? but holding back for some reason. I don't see how it's really supposed to be scum-indicative for someone to dislike their posts being portrayed as lamist. The whole scum daychat thing appears to be kinda irrelevant? Like, I don't see the argument that Keyser as scum for some reason uses scum daychat as an example of something NAI whereas town!Keyser acknowledges it's NAI and moves on. What could the scum motivation ever be for lying in such an insignificant way? I also don't get why it's scummy to say "this is NAI" when someone pushes you for things you think are NAI. I also don't see how it's scum motivated to stop talking about his sr on Sesq as scum; I don't think scum would really mind repeating the same thing over and over at all? And why does scum!keyser pretend to forget about hypoclaiming? Like I might just be being stupid but I don't understand this at all.

Yup yup yup. Wouldn't mind some more pressure on Reundo. I don't know what and why Reundo is arguing. I realise I'm an easy player to provoke, but he's got to start looking at the whole playerlist, and be less fixated on this scum-day-chat/"defensive"/hypoclaiming/"driving discussion away" scum theory non-sense. It's arguing over fluff which is concerning. Even scum-me would be laughing at his scum case on me.

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Post Post #117  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:30 pm

In post 53, GameNBurger wrote:
In post 23, Dunnstral wrote:We end up at 4 people alive but 1 person is confirmed town (watcher) or there's a cc

So it's not worse


We have a watcher no matter what and a base 1/3 of finding scum is in fact worse than 1/2 bass chance of finding scum

Unless you’re talking about something else I’m not reading because this doesn’t exactly communicate the idea clearly


I mean it's not worse than a regular game at 3 people alive

----

Keyser I don't think I caught you in the game we played, not sure why you think I should be "taking lead" today either

Keyser Söze wrote:If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.


This is bad preflip stuff and you have to jump to a lot of conclusions to get to this point - also it's not warranted at this time

VOTE: Sesq
This is a good place to put a serious vote

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Post Post #118  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:40 pm

In post 115, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: northsidegal
I guess I'm about null here? Like, there's scumhunting in her ISO, but I guess something feels off about it. It's like she's pursuing GNB but she never really, like, follows up past pressing on one specific point and then doing the same thing to Irrelephant? Maybe this is just like playstyle and I'm reading too much into it but I feel like town having a seemingly fairly strong scumread there is likely to, like, try and drive a wagon early there and see how people react to that?

Good observation. I agree that NSG has been scumhunting very softly so far (not even one vote yet?). But perhaps nothing has pinged her scumdar very strongly yet. Something to keep an eye on.

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: Sesq
their posts are a rollercoaster ride to the point where if they flipped red I'd be actually impressed with the acting. also I don't really see the scum motivation exactly for saying "oh i tr you nope jk i scumread you"- it's so convoluted that I think the simplest explanation is that they're just town tbh.

I personally wouldn't jump to town lean/read yet. I wanted sesq to open up about their s/read of me, because right now I'm wondering if he actually realises his scum read/vote of me is not actually supported with anything tangible, and not possessing the town-humility to unvote (...states reasons why I'm town, but then posts "vote stays") :giggle: Didn't like him describing his own play/posting as "nuanced", as if he's super aware of it (that's probably just a pet-hate of mine though). He remains near null for me. Let's see if he can share more solid thoughts/reads.

In post 111, Ausuka wrote:
Spoiler: 2 718281828459 (replaced Saudade)
First thought is that I like - Considering his tone here I think 2.718 is unlikely to approach the game this way as scum? Like, I guess I get the feeling he approaches this game in a fairly logical manner and that it wouldn't really appeal to him so much to fake gut reads as scum in the stead of logical reads which I think get townread more. It also seems towny that he goes back and tries to justify and elaborate on his read - if scum are going to bother faking a gutread I'm not sure they bother since the word "gut" tends to make people value what you're saying a lot less.

He seems somewhat like town with legitimate conviction in ; he isn't, like, overly waffly, and I think his approach to Keyser where he builds up his conviction is towny and genuine. It starts as a gutread and he finds evidence that his read is correct and then pushes it. I feel reasonably confident that 2.718 is town.

I must put my hand up and admit the development of his scum read does look town-iesh :shifty: But I cannot get past him saying "Why is Keyser wanting to limit the forbidden topic to page 1?" as if that was scum alignment indicative. I'm not convinced 2.718 is town yet. I'd like him to explain what he meant when he presented this narrative about me being scum-in-panic-mode...?


its because i changed my mind but i dont like providing reasons why i scumread people because i find the reactions more interesting

your behavior is really bad but i dont know if its scum bad or town bad. leaning the former
uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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Post Post #119  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:56 am

In post 105, Keyser Söze wrote:- town can call their own posts non-alignment indicative when accused of being scummy.
- both town and scum can ask if there is day chat.
- a town player can show concern if they think going down an avenue will be unproductive.
- a town player can be very concerned about being put in "bad light" for unjust causes.
- a town player can stubbornly push to try to change the subject if they think it won't help find scum.
- townies can make dumb mistakes and provide incorrect examples.
- town can "attack" the player attacking them.


Yes, of course town can do all of the above, but my point was that I thought your posts would favor scum!you more than town!you. Like for the first point, it would be more productive from a town POV imo to explain your reasoning behind your post and let Sesq decide for themselves whether or not it was scum indicative instead of straight up telling them they "shouldn't see it as an attempt to look townie" and that it's "non-alignment indicative", and it seemed to me like you were being more defensive than the situation called for. Of course you could be defensive as town, but being defensive naturally has more benefits for scum who lose a lot more than town by being suspected -> voted -> lynched, and when it was combined with something I saw as anti-town (calling your own post "non-alignment indicative" read to me like you were trying to force a certain interpretation of your post instead of leaving it open to discussion) I was inclined to read it as a scum defense. I could probably do the same with a lot of the other points you listed, but I don't think it would be worth it. Honestly, my scum-read of you has been waning steadily, and I think a lot of your later posts do read as genuine scum-hunting (the slight backpeddling of your 2.17 read especially caught me off-guard), but you have to understand that not everyone's going to view you as town and that it's not entirely implausible for me to see your actions coming from scum. If you think I'm "arguing over fluff" then so be it, but all you've said to dispute that is saying that your actions can come from town, which wasn't my point at all and doesn't dispute the fact that your actions could come from scum as well, so if you are town then do a better job of proving me wrong.


Now, for a quick snap-shot read of everyone else...

Irrelephant11 - Decently engaged with the game. His questions and scum-hunting seem pretty fine as a whole, and there's nothing that juts out too much. He seems a little reluctant to scum-read people, and even his vote on Sesq didn't seem that committal. He only voted them to move to something more interesting (?) and then moved onto 2.178 in the next post without much indication why. I'm not so sure it's really scum-motivated though, so he's kind of lean town for me.

Ausuka - Hasn't really done too much so far, but her reads list is pretty solid. I got around the same impression from Sasq as she did, and I really liked her read on northsidegal too. Her read on me seems a bit rambling and is not too coherent tbh, but I guess I get where she's coming from. Probably a lean town once she posts some more.

2.187 - His vote on Keyser seems a bit forced as he doesn't really back it up all that much. His follow up post is meh. I liked his pseudo-town-read of me because it was kind of unconventional, though it does line up neatly with his Keyser vote. It also didn't read as obvious buddying since he admitted my post was a "little annoying". Null lean scum.

Sesq - They seemed a bit too eager to back off of Keyser from the first line of #80, but they wouldn't have really be motivated to do that as scum. But then in the next line they say that keyser is "detached" from the game, but also not in a scum way, yet they aren't really swayed and they keep their vote (???). I don't understand their game plan from either alignment to be honest, and I'm not sure how much of this is actually AI or just their playstyle. Null all around.

volxen - His post-RVS introduction was pretty pointless and actually did nothing to add to the discussion. I get I might be kind of a hypocrite since similar things have been said about my introduction, but it seems even more exaggerated in that the distance between the post he was responding to and his actual post number were literally pages apart and that all he said was basically just paraphrasing what northsidegal said. A lean scum for me.

GameNBurger - Started off with a bunch of game theory talk that didn't lead anywhere, then pleading to people not to town-read him for him, which ironically enough made me town-read him for it a little initially. Honestly, I'm not getting too much of an impression from his posts, like nothing really just juts out as towny or that impressive. Pretty null.

Dunnstral - Not having a strong impression on me. I have no idea why he's voting Sesq. Null.

northsidegal - I think she has a lot of interesting perspectives on things. I liked how she pointed out that GameNBurger could've held onto his "don't townread me" comment to see if anyone would town-read him for it first, but then again I don't think this would really glean anything AI since it wouldn't have been obvious as town to make that decision -- seemed like more of a "good play vs. bad play" sort of statement. It's sort of the same thing with her later posts on Irrelephant, though she did admit it probably doesn't matter much in the end. She offers solid advice overall, which does help town in a sense, but I'm clueless in terms of where she leans on basically everyone. Null.

Poseidon - Close to nothing from him. Null.

Kop - Literally nothing from him. Also null.


So basically in a condensed form the players I'm most comfortable considering as town for the moment are {Irrelephant11, Ausuka} and as scum are {2.187, volxen}. Keyser's kind of sliding closer to null, but I'm still not inclined to shift my vote at the moment.

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Post Post #120  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:46 am

In post 118, Sesq wrote:its because i changed my mind but i dont like providing reasons why i scumread people because i find the reactions more interesting

your behavior is really bad but i dont know if its scum bad or town bad. leaning the former

I can accept a townie adopting a playstyle whereby they wait for reactions... however, please now share your conclusions of the reactions from your s/read of me.

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Post Post #121  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:51 am

In post 117, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 53, GameNBurger wrote:
In post 23, Dunnstral wrote:We end up at 4 people alive but 1 person is confirmed town (watcher) or there's a cc

So it's not worse


We have a watcher no matter what and a base 1/3 of finding scum is in fact worse than 1/2 bass chance of finding scum

Unless you’re talking about something else I’m not reading because this doesn’t exactly communicate the idea clearly


I mean it's not worse than a regular game at 3 people alive

----

Keyser I don't think I caught you in the game we played, not sure why you think I should be "taking lead" today either

Keyser Söze wrote:If Dunnstral flips red I would actually wanna put Irrelephant under closer inspection (i.e ill-timed/ill-formed distancing attempt). Or vice versa. I've enjoyed talking to Irrelephant11 so he's on the green side of null so far.


This is bad preflip stuff and you have to jump to a lot of conclusions to get to this point - also it's not warranted at this time

VOTE: Sesq
This is a good place to put a serious vote

weird choice of posts to share comments on:

- first one about set-up talk
- second one about a previous game
- third one about early D1 pre-flip paranoia
- unexplained vote

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Post Post #122  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:41 am

I'd rather be weird than scummy

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Post Post #123  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:01 am

@Sesq, why not just share with us your reasons for scumreading Keyser? You started the game by taking a slight jab at him in , and then in you said that Keyser is “entirely detached from the state of the game ... but not in a scum way”. You also said in that post that you changed your mind about him, which would suggest you no longer found him scummy, but you kept your vote on him anyways. And then in you are apparently back to scumreading him. So why not just explain why you scumread him – is there really anything useful gained by putting it out there that you scumread him, but then refuse to elaborate any further? And what exactly did you mean when you said that he is “detached” from the state of the game, but in a way that is not indicative of him being scum? Trying to understand your motivations here.

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Post Post #124  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:14 am

okay it feels like nobody gets that post which is fine because i could have formatted it better. i said "yeah hes probably town" and the last words were "wait no, i think hes scum." and previously i have seen productive things out of scumreading without explanations so its something i try to use, although devotion to the ideal should be contextual

the main problem i have with his play is that it feels like he is walking into the game with a heavy amount of rigid thinking over what can and cannot be discussed and how things should or should not go. i think this is a scum playstyle because in rigidity you can form solid ideas to build off of that dont require the sort of improvisational fervour one needs as a scumplayer without strategy. that said the goals are seemingly cryptic and i dont really understand them, and it could be a weird fusion of learned behaviors influenced by past results in games, but i havent played with him before so i dont know. feel comfortable on it for now.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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