Open 745: 9:12 [Game Over]

[CultOfAthena]

... then why would you need convinces to vote SA if you think I’m scum half the time and he’s always scum?

It was part thinking that you're the higher value scum lynch as compared to a higher likelihood lynch and part just not wanting to change my vote after a single post, just on the principle of it.

Also, in my experience I've found people claiming things like this to somewhat reliably be scum. If someone's calling you out on something scummy (pocketing, manipulation, buddying, baiting, whatever) or basically just has you caught, you can't deny it and trying to deflect is unlikely to work ? the smart play as scum is just to own it and say that it doesn't have to be scum-indicative.

suppose you are doing one of those things. what would the town response be if admitting it isn't?

In my experience, town isn't doing those things and thus won't admit it. To an accusation of, say, pocketing, a townie would flat out deny that it was happening, likely because that wasn't their intention at all. In contrast, scum are more likely to think of themselves as caught and try to explain it away.

This isn't to claim that town

never

does those things - I'm not claiming some universal scumtell.

[rooroo]

do most town players really think of those things as anti-town and to be avoided?

(this isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious how other people view mafia)

[Invisibility]

hi
VOTE: sleepless
my nullreads are rooroo, coa, and sa
out of the three, coa is probably the worst
he hasnt presented that much original thought and also has done some weird shading ("There's no good reason for town not to share these thoughts.")
in fact i might put sleepless to scumlean
also im not really taking into account the pink ball nk
i mean it kinda makes sense if you think a scum doesnt like pinku because he might be a durdley PR trying not to reveal info and draw the NK
in fact it kinda makes sense for sleepless for force pink's hand and drop a few PR pings
yeah that makes sense

[CultOfAthena]

hi
VOTE: sleepless
my nullreads are rooroo, coa, and sa
out of the three, coa is probably the worst
he hasnt presented that much original thought and also has done some weird shading ("There's no good reason for town not to share these thoughts.")
in fact i might put sleepless to scumlean
also im not really taking into account the pink ball nk
i mean it kinda makes sense if you think a scum doesnt like pinku because he might be a durdley PR trying not to reveal info and draw the NK
in fact it kinda makes sense for sleepless for force pink's hand and drop a few PR pings
yeah that makes sense

You say my name, and then you quote something that SA said while saying "he".

I assume you meant to refer to SA as "probably the worst"...?

How are you reading Slaxx right now?

[Invisibility]

i meant to say sa yeah

[Invisibility]

also my read hasnt changed on slaxx

[rooroo]

Actually, on second blush I have to wonder if SA is the better first vote. It's 50/50 on whether scum!Slaxx would be bussing scum!SA right here, and I think SA is probably always scum here regardless of if Slaxx or rooroo is the buddy. Getting the better likelihood scum lynch today would be better for PRs.

I'm open to being convinced.

actually, what rules out slaxx/rooroo fypov?

[CultOfAthena]

Actually, on second blush I have to wonder if SA is the better first vote. It's 50/50 on whether scum!Slaxx would be bussing scum!SA right here, and I think SA is probably always scum here regardless of if Slaxx or rooroo is the buddy. Getting the better likelihood scum lynch today would be better for PRs.

I'm open to being convinced.

actually, what rules out slaxx/rooroo fypov?

Nothing specifically as it relates to the association between you two, something which I realized shortly after making that post. I simply think that SA is scum a greater percentage of the time here, necessarily implying that {SA, Slaxx} and {SA, rooroo} teams are more likely than {Slaxx, rooroo}.

[Eragon]

Why does it feel like no one is responding to my post <_<

Oh right, because no one has brought it up except slaxx who i specifically asked by name.

wow.


catching up now, and give your thoughts on the post i made SoD

[Eragon]

I don't know. It didn't feel right.
I know that's not very helpful

I'll go back to pull up the posts I didn't like, give me a minute

Why do I look better on an eyes townflip?

Eragon and I talked yesterday about it. Basically you really seemed to give him a chance to try to work his way out of the initial suspicion on him and that felt genuine. So you probably shared his alignment.

I don't regret that push, he was legitimately scummy all the way up until the flip. Wrong is wrong and a mislynch never helps but whatever you have concerns with I can address. Probably not RTI tho cuz I gotta sleep.

but couldnt town kitcat have given scum eyes the chances too?

i see nothing where that couldnt happen

so why do the "probably share alignments"
?

[Eragon]

248/249/252 is what I am talking about kitcat.

He didn't seem like an influential player so there wasn't much incentive to pocket, and at the time he wasn't under a lot of pressure so it wasn't like the lynch was imminent and you decided to cash in on scorning the lynch knowing his flip.

reminder: the whole time kitcat was doing the "minor townpings" stuff her vote was on eyes.

so she decided to "cash in" on the lynch by scorning it, even though she was on the wagon?

[Eragon]

248/249/252 is what I am talking about kitcat.

He didn't seem like an influential player so there wasn't much incentive to pocket, and at the time he wasn't under a lot of pressure so it wasn't like the lynch was imminent and you decided to cash in on scorning the lynch knowing his flip.

but kitcat also rescinded the townpings

Yeah, right around the time I voted him and he started getting really scummy. I can't exactly fault kitcat for that, if I thought the same way they did.

i know i dont blame them or think thats scummy.

i literally did the same exact thing


i was just mentioning it

[Eragon]

Slaxx do i feel my heart/gut or my brain and logic

both have worked for me in the past, both have failed me in the past

My knee jerk reaction is SA, but I really thought Eyes flipped red there so I am a bit shaken in my own reads. Still, You and Izzy are town. Roo I am a bit less sure of and they are probably in the same ballpark as kitcat. So that leaves cult and SA. We really need more from cult.

this didnt help meeeeee

So even then, you went from having no reads to having reads in 20 posts? Still makes no sense.

Your reads list was incredibly opaque and came 19 minutes after you said there wasn’t much content for you to get reads from.

It's hard for me to put into words but this part of the push feels off.

Like it feels like you found something contradictory or strange that you're pushing him for, but not something that's like actually scummy? Like you're pushing him for not making sense, and for suddenly forming reads, which aren't inherently scummy traits really.

I did that on purpose. It gave you a nice excuse to not answer the game/related question, which I figured might be the case. Just like when you slinked off when we were in discussion and tried to reintegrate like nothing happened after other people started talking:

This almost feels like you were baiting him to answer something badly and make himself look bad. It's pretty apparent you're a lot better at arguing and explaining yourself than he is, and this feels a little like you're taking advantage of that.

And like your whole tone in twilight feels bad, almost cocky? Not sure the right words to describe it. Like 388. Overconfident almost that he was flipping scum?

Also you switched really fast to the notion that he might green and what might happen after which doesn't really match how confident you were that he was flipping scum just posts before

You were also setting up a SA push in the event of greenflip

Ok I think that's most of what was bothering me

i was confident in eyes flipping scum up until the flip

even now im thinking he flipped scum :^)

but why is it scummy to do that in twilight? isnt it more likely scum just drops it and moves off the subject.

why does scum continue scumreading someone through twilight?

[CultOfAthena]

IMO more likely it was someone trying to get me to push SA, and draw my attention away. Im not going to bother diving into who this would be, because its dumb speculation that means nothing.

What, this?

I think on principle you're probably vastly overestimating the amount of thought that scum put into specifically deceiving you, and only slightly less overestimating how much thought went into the nightkill in the first place. I see people make both of those mistakes incredibly consistently.

My bet? There were ~4-7 posts of discussion about who to lynch and they chose someone because "he looks kind of like a PR" or "I don't think we can lynch him" or something similar.


Although, that's just my idea of how scum plays in general. I'd imagine if Slaxx is scum he probably went pretty deep into it. If SA is scum I picture the opposite for him.

[Eragon]

Yeah the baiting felt bad to me.
I'm not sure it's inherently

scummy

but it does feel manipulative - like you were trying to set up a favorable argument for yourself against someone who couldn't defend themselves as well

do you think anyone else that voted eyes is scummy for their push?

if yes, ok.

if no, explain why only Slaxx's push was wolfy.

[Eragon]

I'm gonna be honest here. Coming back to see that someone was already hammered and the game was in night phase kind of got me checked out of this game.

That being said, I have read things here and there, and I'm not entirely without reads.

I trust my Invisibility townread.
I think kitcat is pretty obviously town.
Eragon I also think is town.

Excluding myself, that leaves {SA, Slaxx, rooroo}. If we're feeling a little spicy we could even exclude rooroo for 156—which I thought was mildly towny—leaving us with just {SA, Slaxx}. But, that might be a bit too spicy.

Anyways, call me lazy or whatever, but I feel pretty alright voting Slaxx after everything I've just said combined with him pushing a mislynch on one of my townreads.

Vote: Slaxx

L-2.

where did you get the slaxx scumread

how is kitcat "obvious town"

why did you townread eyes

[CultOfAthena]

I mean, I suppose you could make the argument that Pink Ball was killed for having SA as his top townread and/or some other combination of who his scumreads were.

@slaxx using your same metric:

Inv->Slaxx->Eragon-> /// kitcat->CoA->rooroo /// SA

Why do you have rooroo so up?

p-edit you already answered. I really think I can get a better read on rooroo on D2, but the way she's playing pings me. She could argue it's because of being an alt, but some things never change

Looking at this point certainly doesn't do any favors for Slaxx – it doesn't do any for Invis or Eragon, either, but that doesn't fit my confirmation bias, so I'm gonna choose to ignore it.

I don't really think the whole single-night NKA is very conclusive in the first place, so—absent a convincing argument to the contrary—I don't think I'm going to let it change my opinion all that much. Either way, conclusive or inconclusive, I still feel pretty good about where my vote's at right now.

[Eragon]

I totally baited him into doing that. Bait doesn't have to be scummy.

Yeah the baiting felt bad to me.
I'm not sure it's inherently

scummy

but it does feel manipulative - like you were trying to set up a favorable argument for yourself against someone who couldn't defend themselves as well

It was 100% manipulative, but I think I had a pretty good basis for doing it. I'm fairly well known for shit like that, I just got out of a game where I suggested we mod kill a slot that mod accidentally cleared to fish for reactions from the 2 remaining unclears. I had no intention of actually modkilling the slot. It was actually Chibi's game lol.

Also, in my experience I've found people claiming things like this to somewhat reliably be scum. If someone's calling you out on something scummy (pocketing, manipulation, buddying, baiting, whatever) or basically just has you caught, you can't deny it and trying to deflect is unlikely to work – the smart play as scum is just to own it and say that it doesn't have to be scum-indicative.

if im reading what they are saying right they were reaction testing eyes.

reaction testing is a pro-town strat and i actually see it come from scum less, because it puts you out there more, and in a bad way at times.

for example, in a game on my homesite i was pretty widely townread(i was VT) and i didn't trust the investigator claim due to weird interactions with dead scum and previous slot.
Everyone else in the game had claimed and i was hoping he'd check me.
he said he did, so i claimed bodyguard instead, then he claimed that he didnt actually check me.
i rescinded my claim and explained my reasoning
i was no longer widely townread, but i still wasnt lynched because they didnt think id pull something like that as scum that could easily backfire.

not a perfect example, but it fits the cliche enough i think

[Eragon]

Actually, on second blush I have to wonder if SA is the better first vote. It's 50/50 on whether scum!Slaxx would be bussing scum!SA right here, and I think S

A is probably always scum here regardless of if Slaxx or rooroo is the buddy

. Getting the better likelihood scum lynch today would be better for PRs.

I'm open to being convinced.

why dont you just vote sleepless then <_<

[Eragon]

Ok, so I thought about the baiting thing a bit more.
I still don't know if it's scummy, but it still feels wrong - I definitely got the vibe that you were trying to force an argument that you thought you could win, and I don't really think town approaches that situation that way. I don't think it's

impossible

for town to pick an argument against someone they're strongly scumreaidng in order to force the lynch, but i think it's more likely something scum do to make a mislynch happen.

tunneling is when the highest poster maintains an idiotic scumread on me for most of day 1 every game because I'm low efforting or not 100% obvtown despite my posting not actually being scum-indicative at all.

actually the fact that pb thinks he's being tunneled here is probably a bit scummy

@COA: I also thought this post was kinda townie for rooroo. Not on Vizzy/Eragon tier, but definitely townie enough that I'm not very interested in lynching her today

I don't have a very solid read on you yet though.

can you express why this post is towny enough to not lynch rooroo?

[Eragon]

Also, in my experience I've found people claiming things like this to somewhat reliably be scum. If someone's calling you out on something scummy (pocketing, manipulation, buddying, baiting, whatever) or basically just has you caught, you can't deny it and trying to deflect is unlikely to work ? the smart play as scum is just to own it and say that it doesn't have to be scum-indicative.

suppose you are doing one of those things. what would the town response be if admitting it isn't?

p-edit: whoops quotes got messed up ignore the quote of (516)

[CultOfAthena]

where did you get the slaxx scumread

I feel like I've explained myself pretty well. If you have a more specific question, just ask.

how is kitcat "obvious town"

She's questioning Slaxx over perceived inconsistencies and scummy behavior and is pretty earnestly trying to understand his mindset as opposed to trying to, say, push a mislynch or convince others on something. This has happened all while she's already townread by both the person she's questioning and what seems to me like the rest of the playerlist, so I don't particularly see any scum motivation.

It's just sort of apparent to me, and I'm willing to look foolish if I'm wrong there.

why did you townread eyes

I liked 125, 129 and 130.

[CultOfAthena]

I would appreciate it if you took a moment to read, if not the whole thread, just a few posts ahead before you respond to something.

[rooroo]

Actually, on second blush I have to wonder if SA is the better first vote. It's 50/50 on whether scum!Slaxx would be bussing scum!SA right here, and I think SA is probably always scum here regardless of if Slaxx or rooroo is the buddy. Getting the better likelihood scum lynch today would be better for PRs.

I'm open to being convinced.

actually, what rules out slaxx/rooroo fypov?

Nothing specifically as it relates to the association between you two, something which I realized shortly after making that post. I simply think that SA is scum a greater percentage of the time here, necessarily implying that {SA, Slaxx} and {SA, rooroo} teams are more likely than {Slaxx, rooroo}.

if it's not poe then why are you scumreading SA?

[Eragon]

... then why would you need convinces to vote SA if you think I’m scum half the time and he’s always scum?

It was part thinking that you're the higher value scum lynch as compared to a higher likelihood lynch and part just not wanting to change my vote after a single post, just on the principle of it.

Also, in my experience I've found people claiming things like this to somewhat reliably be scum. If someone's calling you out on something scummy (pocketing, manipulation, buddying, baiting, whatever) or basically just has you caught, you can't deny it and trying to deflect is unlikely to work ? the smart play as scum is just to own it and say that it doesn't have to be scum-indicative.

suppose you are doing one of those things. what would the town response be if admitting it isn't?

In my experience, town isn't doing those things and thus won't admit it. To an accusation of, say, pocketing, a townie would flat out deny that it was happening, likely because that wasn't their intention at all. In contrast, scum are more likely to think of themselves as caught and try to explain it away.

This isn't to claim that town

never

does those things - I'm not claiming some universal scumtell.

so basically

you scumread SA more than Slaxx, yes?
However, you feel Slaxx has a greater scum equity and (pardon me if this isnt your intention) you think slaxx is less likely to get lynched later on so why not just nip the flower in the bud and get it over with.

am i right?