Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[catboi]

there's no incentive for scum!Ana to go to keep and promise to vote through Briar/Absinthe because that's a point for the town.

Only if you actually follow through with it...

I've already committed to voting for whichever of Briar/Absinthe remain in the group.

I have no reason to change on this.

What if you change your mind?

But until that actually happens - he has no ground to say I am scum-gambitting.

And I'm not. I'm just saying it's possible.

To be clear-- I was not aware that you'd committed to definitely voting whoever of Briar/absinthe remains at the Keep. If you clearly stated it somewhere, it was too far back and I didn't recall it? My +scum comment was about you jumping on the Keep, only.

I don't think a gambit is incredibly likely, but I also think that you're playing badly if town by committing yourself to not changing those reads.

only if my reads are wrong

I think it's pretty silly to have a value judgement on play that is only determined after the game is over. We want to know now what's good and what isn't; so I think that it is bad play to commit yourself to a read like that, even if the read turns out to be right in the end.

Also, very, very subtle, but I feel like here he's trying to push Anastasia toward committing to voting Briar at first, only to tie himself in a knot by saying scum would hesitate, but town shouldn't commit to their reads either - I think given how he saw ana was doubting him, he just shifted his argument knowing she'd do the opposite of what he said. There's a bit of a halt where he says "you're playing badly if town by committing to your reads" but there was never the followthrough to the next logical step - that scum would leave her with whichever of her reads was wrong.

[catboi]

I think if either one of you try to escape to the Gate it would be a scum claim

Well yes, but we would also have to do it.

If Infinity and I both went to the Wall right now, by definition the game would not be over.

With hindsight, this really looks like a cheeky scum line

[catboi]

Anyway, that's all for me for now. I'm going to do a meta dive on Ydrasse's recent scumgames later, see if I can find anything in terms of partner interactions - She really completely blindsided me here based on our past experience but I want to see if there's been a recent evolution in her play that I can track.

o(=´∇｀=)o

[Something_Smart]

If you would like "textbook distancing", how about this: pretending to be mistaken about the identity of an alt.

How do you know that Briar shared her identity with her partners?

[Something_Smart]

Also, very, very subtle, but I feel like here he's trying to push Anastasia toward committing to voting Briar at first, only to tie himself in a knot by saying scum would hesitate, but town shouldn't commit to their reads either - I think given how he saw ana was doubting him, he just shifted his argument knowing she'd do the opposite of what he said. There's a bit of a halt where he says "you're playing badly if town by committing to your reads" but there was never the followthrough to the next logical step - that scum would leave her with whichever of her reads was wrong.

I mean you also left off the part where I explicitly criticized Ana for locking into her Briar/absinthe townreads and refusing to ever go back on them.

[absinthe]

This readthrough of uwnd's Day 2 pre-Briar-flip iso is prompted by Luke's questions to me. Starting it, I wasn't sure if I'd wind up agreeing with Luke.

Apologies for the huge wall of quotes that I'm not going to spoiler...

Dunn I have an itch that's it you based on the way the night went down but I'm willing to be reasonable

Did you go to the wall with me because you thought Luke was scum and you could convince me? I don't remember if you answered your intent yet

What about the way the night went down points to Dunn?

Okay, Ana, hear me out...

I think that S_S might be town for how Infinity was pushing him versus catboi.

(I'm treating Infinity like she's flipped scum currently which, maybe is not the best method but it's the likely outcome here.)

Re: S_S town, I was recently there with you but not anymore

I've called out Dunn in games and he immediately retorts back, but I've felt uncomfortable with his maybe-townread of me given that other circumstances make me think he'd be less reluctant

What other circumstances?

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

I don't know why you asked me this, what prompted the question.

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

Double?

You and catboi both think I'm scum

This explains it, but still double bussed implies both are scum and we know that's not the case. Just a joke? Yeah, just a joke per 1211

You and catboi both think I'm scum

Well that's only a single bus

You're both scum then even if the setup literally doesn't allow that

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

What are the reasons I should be seeing you as town?

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

Why? Our reads are the least relevant ones in the whole game, and it should make you look more town if it's guaranteed that scum is pushing you, no?

I don't like reading the game merely reacting to people based on my content, I'd rather come in with some choice words and try to subtly lead somewhere, hoping that my logic wins out. For both of you to think I'm scum it basically becomes 'oh great, I have to appeal to someone who is just trying to get me killed and someone who just misunderstands me' lol

This kiiinda bothers me. I mean, yeah, we have to care about what other minigames think about our minigame/us, but the reads of you that really matter (aside from helping you sort the Gate) are your minigame.

At this point of Day 2 you've focused on Dunn exclusively in the Wall.

Let's start somewhere else

The whole game pretty much agrees that Infinity is caught scum. That's very much a given. I would like to state if you're not paying attention that both the two people who have a confirmed scum in them think I'm evil. Who's bussing me?

I like this question.

I'm also trying to think about being in this position as town, where I know there is a town player misreading me paired with a scum player who's faking the read. I would get hyperfocused on it, I think.

What I don't like about the point in the game I'm reading is that you've focused within your own minigame entirely on Dunn, and don't look like you're trying to sort Luke. :/

Ok well

If I haven't made it clear enough

I have to solve the both of you

I'm fine with you two sharing a heartfelt moment over statistical data, but work with my sensibilities

Do you think that all 3 scum were the last people who hadn't voted for a position yet, and that I then hammered wall for no reason as a sort of gambit to make my team look better?\\Because if you don't think that, then you should probably think catboi is scum, actually, and we can probably win off of that

Can I say with true sincerity that thinking about what scum did last night hurts my head

I was running with my own smallbrain idea that You/Infinity got caught out. However I'm not the person to bury someone (or even try) based on mechanics. I want to treat that as happenstance exclusively

What was headhurting about what we thought scum did on N1 (scum-infinity and town-me were swapped)?

I just give her emotional tendencies more leeway than I should

In FL v Hectic I thought her funposting/anime talk was townie

In dance it wasn't exactly like that, but I don't think I have a potential grasp on her towngame. I want to believe this is the game though? I can't be wrong three times in a row

There's a lot of ambivalence here. It makes sense to have ambivalence given their history, but it was not a sentiment I noticed from other players about Briar.

Just saying please reconsider regardless of Infinity's flip my innocence

I do my taxes on time and feed the hungry on weekends. I also once saved a bunch of children from a burning orphanage

How could you not townread me

~hollow laugh~


What changed S_S back from town here?

I just really see the game coming down to the Wall, not that I don't have faith in absin to make the right decision, but that's how I predict it

There's a slight breather inbetween each hammer mind you but I've been increasingly

How do I put this

Like someone is touching me and I'm telling them not to, but they're doing it anyways to get a rise out of me

That's been this whole D2 for me

~hollow laugh~ (this is me wondering if knowledge that the Keep is near-lost for town affected how this was phrased. I wonder how I would have phrased it if I were contemplating Keep goes to town and which of the two other minigames are the clutch decision at that point in the game).

You believe what you want Ydra but the fact is that the whole game hates me should tell you either that I'm just a very popular guy or scum is just riding the trend

That's the roadblock that I have when it comes to you being scum right now. I don't get what the move is for scum if they're bussing at all. They can't win like that in a setup like this.

Why did it even become consensus? D1 you had Ana who was dedicated in her solve and now D2 comes and I'm instantly scum for everyone

Even fucking lukewarm

I thought you were pretty towny D1, honestly. I think at this point though it's that there are other people that are either confirmed/close to confirmed and you sort of... didn't keep up, maybe? It's not like you're playing bad IMO, but this is a good table.

I know what people have said but if I am being scumread as town I absolutely take it as playing bad.

I tried to correct this a bit later in D1 and my own self-assessment of quality play has gone down to the negatives

Now I can handle being scumread, I can handle disagreement

But I feel really iced out and it's fucking with my ability to solve

I feel like that's where my frustration stems

If unwnd is scum, he wrote the above knowing that infinity had even more reason to feel iced out. If unwnd is town, then he had the solace (at the time) of believing town could lose one of the Gate, Wall. I don't think this post helps me read him.

unwnd, I think that... it might be easier honestly when we flip in the Keep, less people who are not believing you, maybe? I'm sorry because it feels like you're not having fun but this really isn't anything like, personal I hope you know. <3

It's just that, how the game played out left you in this place. If you're town please just keep on solving independently if you have to and ignore everything? Sorry.

I took a deep breath

You're right

augh (at Briar, mostly)

In games there is typically at least some scum who are just playing below average or simply get swallowed by gamestate

I don't feel that way here, even Infinity refused to give up

I agree this is/was a challenging table. The game was warped by Briar's play, and I feel like town hasn't been able to use the knowledge of her alignment in solving, really. :/

And we know that departed (and remaining) town were seriously, seriously wrong in their Keep solve, and that puts the rest of their/our solves in question.

Alright.

I apologize for my agitation in some areas. I'm not going to repeat to you all about that however.

To preface this: this setup to me just creates mechanical strife. It seems like it could potentially be used for gain but at the end of the day each minigame is a XYLO where one of them just happens to have a clear. You can spin the keep as 'oh we just vote for town' but it's a very small difference and doesn't change how someone would behave. This plays in part to what I believe Catboi? said earlier about Infinity and how she's just locked into her choice like a dance game. For clarity, there is extremely little room to think that Ana is scum. I also want to believe that this is town game experience I'll be able to take away from Ydra, despite her changing her mind on me. It's not a matter of how we solve Keep in my mind rather when it comes. Infinity is playing very close to antispew in my mind and only focusing on the necessity of needing to towntell, which is a smart decision. However, I think that behavior is less directed. I don't really feel like Infinity has a set of lines she's being fed from potential mates. I think they're mostly focusing on covering their own ass much like Infinity is.

So I'm not going to look at this with associative with mind, rather consider individual play. Scum who are in their minigames in my opinion don't really need to help their partners here. They need to just focus on themselves. This is why what Dunn/Lukewarm were frustrating me, not because what Ana believes. In a XYLO, you believe you're town and you don't want the decision to fall on you, or against you. This is not behavior that is difficult to replicate, and just because you're mechanically locked into a pseudo-XYLO does not

again

change anything. I can't just believe Lukewarm/Dunn must be town for X Y Z mechanical reason, and I'm not letting either of them accept the other as town.

Right now I am leaning that Dunnstral is just playing to Lukewarm's sensibilities. I believe that Dunn will take the mechanical agreement and just run with it. I don't like how he's approached me and changed his mind about me even if a lot of people have. I think him especially just dropped the read on me once it was no longer useful. I've seen how Dunn acts towards me and he is never that reluctant to townread me. That was the initial feeling that disturbed me. Regardless, do I think Dunn as scum

planned

what happened and could come in with good intentions about his choice? Not entirely, but I think he's adaptive. I don't understand where Dunn's behavior must be genuine because the choice really wasn't his to make? That's aside the point and talking about that aspect will start a migraine.

Moving on, Lukewarm's ideas are there but they're not perfect. They have imperfections very likely found in a newbie. I don't think newbscum trying to get all initiated with mechanical in-and-outs is impossible, but the difference between Lukewarm/Dunn is the approach of things. What's also different is that Lukewarm is coming off a loss is very likely more sensitive to himself. His backing off of Dunn was far more conclusive in that regard because he was the one to initiate at first. I don't have the actual data to back this but I get the feeling in some game where Lukewarm is scum he would be more tucked inward with his thoughts. Much more reliant on his partners to help him out or afraid to give his opinion. Lukewarm's conviction to me wins out compared to Dunn's convenience.

Mechanics are only useful if the benefit turns into some form of a read. Meaning, the person who is either giving or talking about the mechanics becomes readable by the conventions of such. I don't believe that is the case this game because the only useful thing given to us was already decided by scum. That being said, it's great that I really only have to be wrong on one of Catboi/S_S. I think Catboi's thoughts keep unprepared compared to S_S's already decided thoughts. I've struggled to see Point A to Point B with him. I've already talked about why I was leaning on S_S being town but I'm willing to correct that decision here. I think to break this line of thought what frustrates me is. When a lot of people scumread you, then it's hard to figure out how to argue against people. I want Catboi to trust me and I don't know how to entirely do that. S_S/Catboi share one similarity however which doesn't make my answer definitive compared to Dunn/Lukewarm. They know themselves to such a scary degree and both play in such a way that is almost always UTR. Those type of scum don't really buckle easy and will rely on their idiosyncrasies to cover up misplays. The issue of me leaning S_S instead of Catboi here is that I guess I just find Catboi much more approachable despite his apprehension towards me. I'm not sure if I personally offended him for some reason but that one line of him being like 'why should you care what I think' just really stuck out to me. I do care for one and two that emotive trait makes me think his catch-up is not a given choice. That he isn't just

pretending

to catch-up. At the end of the day, all S_S has done is stay true to himself but it hasn't really done favors for him, especially in D2. He's not really one to reach out and I think he's more afraid of errors in that regard. Catboi seems more willing to take chances.

I feel like this is the first time on Day 2 that you've voiced thoughts on Lukewarm, and that troubles me.

My impression of S_S is that he's not at all always a UTR. Or maybe it's just that I don't come to an easy townread on him, usually. I wind up with doubts.

Regarding S_S reach-outs, Day 1 was disturbing to me due to HOW MUCH I felt he was reaching out to me, because I've always felt in our prior games that I had to engage him or we wouldn't have much interaction at all. This was particularly true of the Smokefilled Antechamber and Tenet games.

And here's the solve:

So yeah right now I think it's Dunn/Infinity/S_S. I think the person I could intentionally be most wrong about is Dunn but that isn't a situation I want him to use to get on my good side now that I've come to play ball

I feel like this solve was very well telegraphed throughout Day 2.

I have other issues with his play, but I don't think unwnd avoided having opinions on the gate prior to Infinity's vote.

[unwnd]

And let me just say that you're really not understand what I have to deal with.

Both Catboi/S_S have pretty much shut me down in most attempts, and S_S especially has said 'I don't care what your read is on me'. Tell me Luke: What's the best way to read someone? Is it sitting on your own laurels and assuming you can get in someone's head and figuring out what they're thinking? Or is it approaching them, asking questions, and trying to understand. I simply cannot be a mind reader and I did not feel like I was helping Absin by sitting there and taking the same approach S_S was. I don't know what about that is so hard to understand, or how approaching them is..working against wanting to win?

You could have just...analyzed our posts?

In hindsight yes I could've, but you both play very similarly even if you don't realize it. You're two people who as absin put, will play to their idiosyncrasies. S_S is especially attached to them, but I just get a feeling as scum you wouldn't waiver. As for why I keep pushing the envelope? I can't honestly tell you. I know it seems like a stretch to say this but it really was the fact I was manically obsessed with the game due to not monitoring my health. Do you remember a lot of times you were sleep deprived and making good decisions? Probably not many

[absinthe]

Actually I was calling myself an idiosyncratic player and questioning whether I should use what I think my approach would have been as a yardstick. Even in that game, I raised other townies' hackles, though I still feel I had the right grasp of the situation and approach to working through it.

That's not to say they aren't also idiosyncratic players. I think we all are. Some are further off the beaten path than others.

[unwnd]

That's actually why I feel my approach needed to be more personable. S_S has especially been pretty difficult to break down, but now I think that behavior is much more deliberate, while Catboi is just focused on other things. I like that latter approach because he didn't feel compelled to just give me what I want. I've played games with S_S before and I feel he is pretty much at either agreeing with you or not agreeing and completely ignoring you. Regardless, their personalities are developed and they both stand out on a playerlist. No offense to Lukewarm (barring the previous connotation), but I don't really know him and he's just some newbie who I don't need to focus on too hard. He's a much easier read in hindsight to everyone else still around.

[unwnd]

Even if my Infinity read was wrong, what do you think of my solve? I don't wanna be confbiased to such a degree that I'm just locking it in. I do see small aspects of where Dunnstral seemed like he believed what he was saying, but the point to me is pretty moot. Dunn is decent enough to make posts that seem beliveable, but it's how he uses them. How he builds off his own stances and treats the game based on them. There is a decent amount of consistency in that aspect, but what sets me back is the fact his behavior is planned. Lukewarm just seems to come from a place that would be really hard to have an agenda. Could he be listless scum who doesn't know what to do, so he feels so independent from the rest of the game? Maybe, but I don't think that's the team we're working with here. Lukewarm would be a regular goon in this instance who is simply doing what he's told, but nothing in his posts make me feel like he's just following orders. I could see Dunn/S_S both trying to work opposite sides of the game to reach a fake middle conclusion, and one thing I've noted is that Dunn/S_S literally hardly react with each other.

[absinthe]

I have such narrow slices of experience with both catboi and S_S that being in the same xylo with them is terrifying.

I don't know if my impression is accurate or fair, but I feel like catboi has more range(?) as a player and probably has a stronger scum game than S_S does.

I feel like if Luke is scum he's playing an amazingly strong game here. My paranoia about him in the newbie game actually came down to feeling that he (like I was in my first MS game) could be a ringer with a really decent scum game that wouldn't have to stand the test of meta in his first game at MS. He has a track record now, and feel like his stances and approaches are just way too deeply developed for this to be his scum game. If I get bitten here, me 'ats off to him.

For me the Wall comes down to sorting Dunn and you, with a desultory eye watching for slips in Luke's play.

[absinthe]

unwnd please don't ignore my wall-o-quotes. :/

[unwnd]

I wasn't sure if you wanted a direct response to them

[absinthe]

...there are questions for you

[unwnd]

What about the way the night went down points to Dunn?

It's compounded with my reason earlier in regards to how I think the scumteam is operating. Infinity got matched with Dunn/S_S purely by the circumstance. I also just generally agree with you that Lukewarm is outside of any potential range he could have, therefore it just has to be him.

What other circumstances?

Me and Dunn clash a lot. I think last game we were together, I had a fleeting nullish to scum read on him (Popcorn) and it always came down to dissenting opinion. The game before that we were both jsut town. I like Dunn and I think he's a well-rounded player, but I always give myself a bit of leeway reading him. Dunn will almost always be null to me until he either A) Reveals something about his play I can pick up on B) interacts with me in such a way that I think is more telling of the times I have scumread him. I think B is the reality I am working with right now. That being said, I don't think Dunn is very good at retorting a complete argument, rather he'll do what he did to me earlier and just break it down. Very annoying to deal with especially if you have a scumread on him, because he will always look like the sane man in the argument.

I don't know why you asked me this, what prompted the question.

I was..frustrated. And really tired. Health stuff that I've talked about. Good news though-- I slept 8 hours this time and feel a lot better than those days.

This explains it, but still double bussed implies both are scum and we know that's not the case. Just a joke? Yeah, just a joke per 1211

No, it just was a mental error due to not taking care of myself. It felt like the whole game was against me, even if I knew in a more rational state that wasn't true.

This kiiinda bothers me. I mean, yeah, we have to care about what other minigames think about our minigame/us, but the reads of you that really matter (aside from helping you sort the Gate) are your minigame.

At this point of Day 2 you've focused on Dunn exclusively in the Wall.

That's just the hand I was dealt with really. I felt pressured in that moment to try and make out some good enough reasoning as to why I think it's Dunn and then in my head found some way to pair S_S with him. I winged it in some aspects, but I genuinely do this all the time. I have a tendency to get a thought and then use that thought as a baseline. My first feeling into this day was actually not 'ok S_S is scum', which is why I was trying to slowly build up to it and assess the room. I was coming into the day more ready to battle with Dunn and then wanting to gauge S_S/Catboi's independent reactions to me. It didn't work out as I planned and I should've just practiced restraint. That being said, what do you think about Catboi/Dunn being a potential pairing? I thought about what I said earlier in regards to S_S/Dunn not really interacting but I can't say Catboi/Dunn have either. I think Dunn right now leans Catboi but it seems like Catboi doesn't really give a shit, in fact I'd even say he doesn't really care about anything going on in the Wall.

I like this question.

I'm also trying to think about being in this position as town, where I know there is a town player misreading me paired with a scum player who's faking the read. I would get hyperfocused on it, I think.

What I don't like about the point in the game I'm reading is that you've focused within your own minigame entirely on Dunn, and don't look like you're trying to sort Luke. :/

D1 I treated Luke as something that resolves itself. If he's scum then he'll run out of topics to talk about and end up in a situation where he just repeats himself like a broken record. That isn't what is happening though and I feel he's considering his own mindset and the perspective it brings. I'm pretty much where you're at with him so I don't feel there's anything further to discuss there.

What was headhurting about what we thought scum did on N1 (scum-infinity and town-me were swapped)?

It plays into what I said before and that mechanics are very easy to talk about. They're also dependent and I feel are only relevant if someone comes forward with either a tangible plan on how to use them, or some fort of alibi. Dunn did do that, but knowing how I felt about him I realized he could make himself look really good. I also think that if you're in a situation where mechanics are involved, scum have more room to just say whatever. They can give X Y Z reason as for why mechanics should line up in their favor and it's nothing that can be proven usually. Not unless it involves actual contradictory stuff such as a fake investigative result, or someone who comes forward and makes their claim untrue. The whole process made my head hurt because I knew arguing this point would be very difficult.

There's a lot of ambivalence here. It makes sense to have ambivalence given their history, but it was not a sentiment I noticed from other players about Briar.

I suck at reading emotional players. I am too much of a giving person and think for people like Ydra she cannot contain her emotions. Mind you--I am not a fool and believe that emotions indicate that someone is genuine. Scum have emotions and absolutely know how to use them for gain. I do think however that using emotions is a bit more of an underhanded tactic that I don't entirely agree upon. I guess it needs more context in that regard. When it comes to Ydra she really was just saying the right stuff and the constant compliments was making me feel good about myself lol. I'm not really burned about it outside of the game because that was pure tactical. I think at the end of Dance I said to her 'I need to find a different way to read you' and I guess she took that as a opportunity to appeal more to me. In dance, we didn't really react in that way and she mostly had her emotions dealt out to everyone. She focused in on me maybe because she thought I could figure her out or something. Regardless, I think how Ydra succeeded here is that Ana pretty much gave her a blueprint and then she just followed it. We were all convinced pretty much what Ana was saying was true which is why Infinity died the way she did.

~hollow laugh~


What changed S_S back from town here?

Did I switch him back? I was just shooting the shit and trying to calm myself down, making jokes in the process. No deeper thoughts

~hollow laugh~ (this is me wondering if knowledge that the Keep is near-lost for town affected how this was phrased. I wonder how I would have phrased it if I were contemplating Keep goes to town and which of the two other minigames are the clutch decision at that point in the game).

I was under the impression we were going to win Keep. That wasn't a jab against you saying that I didn't think you could solve Gate, rather I was prepared to take on responsibility, and that if Infinity flipped scum then people would just go 'oh yeah Ana was right' and then just confbias S_S -> Me in that order.

[unwnd]

augh (at Briar, mostly)

I am quite unhappy about it but I want to believe that she meant was she said? Like, I think she would have that sentiment as town. So as scum she just said it even if it seems a bit manipulative. Dunno.

I agree this is/was a challenging table. The game was warped by Briar's play, and I feel like town hasn't been able to use the knowledge of her alignment in solving, really. :/

And we know that departed (and remaining) town were seriously, seriously wrong in their Keep solve, and that puts the rest of their/our solves in question.

Yes it's completely fucked things but I really do feel like I have at least a small benefit in the fact we both agree Lukewarm is probably town. That's why I didn't really mind going first with the Wall if that would help you. I think I mentioned it twice now.

I feel like this is the first time on Day 2 that you've voiced thoughts on Lukewarm, and that troubles me.

My impression of S_S is that he's not at all always a UTR. Or maybe it's just that I don't come to an easy townread on him, usually. I wind up with doubts.

Regarding S_S reach-outs, Day 1 was disturbing to me due to HOW MUCH I felt he was reaching out to me, because I've always felt in our prior games that I had to engage him or we wouldn't have much interaction at all. This was particularly true of the Smokefilled Antechamber and Tenet games.

Both towngames I've seen of S_S is that he's in his own bubble. I don't feel like S_S as scum really needs to change that, but maybe the reach outs are what is disturbing you. My scumread on S_S is not sitting at 100% or anything ridiculous, it's more like a 70% or something. I'm not deathly confident and I could just be seeing shit and trying to pair Dunn with someone I think could operate with him in the way the gamestate has been fucked.

/I feel like this solve was very well telegraphed throughout Day 2.

I have other issues with his play, but I don't think unwnd avoided having opinions on the gate prior to Infinity's vote.

I try my best to be as comprehensible as possible. I've been worrying that I've been maybe trying a bit too hard though

[catboi]

Okay, I took a look at

Dark Waltz III

for research, I don't know how to best present my findings but I think rather than going into detail I'm going to summarize Ydrasse's interactions with her partners in that game because I think there's some clear tendencies shown.

Early on koba distances with her, koba attacks her and she plays up the hurt/emotional angle in response. From there she calls koba scum occasionally but never really cases it or pushes it too strongly. She just rides with the occasional suspicion on the slot. She continues to argue with Koba and Firebringer (when he replaces koba) but they always initiate it, it doesn't get started from her end. Again very heavy in playing up the AtE and frustration.

Her other partner, Harley, she barely interacts with at all, to an almost shocking degree. They only spoke to each other a handful of times and when they did it was soft questioning. she floated a scumread on harley but wound up reversing course later when the game environment became favorable for it. There was also a PT but I haven't read that and it's a different environment so I assume it's not relevant.

In general she seems to have a tendency to rarely speak with her partners directly, which is about what I'd expect from a player relatively new to forum mafia.

[catboi]

Going to reread ISOs later with that in mind. I've no doubt in my mind all of the stances she took were deliberate posturing that was designed to confuse, but I think the tendency in interactions is something she'd not be looking out for and is more likely produce useful tells.

[catboi]

And let me just say that you're really not understand what I have to deal with.

Both Catboi/S_S have pretty much shut me down in most attempts, and S_S especially has said 'I don't care what your read is on me'. Tell me Luke: What's the best way to read someone? Is it sitting on your own laurels and assuming you can get in someone's head and figuring out what they're thinking? Or is it approaching them, asking questions, and trying to understand. I simply cannot be a mind reader and I did not feel like I was helping Absin by sitting there and taking the same approach S_S was. I don't know what about that is so hard to understand, or how approaching them is..working against wanting to win?

You could have just...analyzed our posts?

In hindsight yes I could've, but you both play very similarly even if you don't realize it. You're two people who as absin put, will play to their idiosyncrasies. S_S is especially attached to them, but I just get a feeling as scum you wouldn't waiver. As for why I keep pushing the envelope? I can't honestly tell you. I know it seems like a stretch to say this but it really was the fact I was manically obsessed with the game due to not monitoring my health. Do you remember a lot of times you were sleep deprived and making good decisions? Probably not many

I don't think we're remotely similar. That seems like a bit of a cop-out but I don't know if you were just being cautious of me after FL vs Hectic (I also don't remember how you were reading me in that game)

I don't know if my impression is accurate or fair, but I feel like catboi has more range(?) as a player and probably has a stronger scum game than S_S does.

I once self-described myself as a "cocky bastard" as scum but that was a long time ago. I fooled a decent number of people in my only real scum game in years, but not the ones that mattered (nothing I said could shake FL. Pooky caught me almost instantaneously). I still honestly feel like I'm well beyond the range of how I played in that game. That was part of why I was begging Ydrasse to explain her read on me. Then she flipped scum.

[unwnd]

I don't think we're remotely similar. That seems like a bit of a cop-out but I don't know if you were just being cautious of me after FL vs Hectic (I also don't remember how you were reading me in that game)

I was trolling the situation when it came to my read on you given that game wasn't nearly as serious. I think about D2 I liked your catch-up. There's not any doubt in my mind that you're good at explaining yourself, but right now I don't know if I can see you as Dunn's partner. As I mentioned to absin earlier, I did indicate that you haven't really given Dunn much thought despite the fact he claims to scum-lean you. That being said, FL happened to tunnel you and then I voted while making passive-aggressive statements about our great overlord. How does it feel like a cop-out to you?

[absinthe]

@Absinthe, I had some thoughts before the Briar flip about the Wall and Gate solves, in a "If x is scum at the wall, then y is scum at the gate" and vice versa, but all of that thinking was built around Infinity being scum. I am now quite unsure about the gate.

Please, for the love of God, let us resolve the Wall before the Gate. Because I do not want to have to cast my vote after you have left the thread, so you can tell me if I end up tunneling again.

Going last suits my indecisive, paralytic ass quite well.

I think I've said this a couple times but maybe not such it stands out to other players:

I'm fine with Gate going last.

[absinthe]

What about the way the night went down points to Dunn?

It's compounded with my reason earlier in regards to how I think the scumteam is operating. Infinity got matched with Dunn/S_S purely by the circumstance. I also just generally agree with you that Lukewarm is outside of any potential range he could have, therefore it just has to be him.

I want to understand what you were thinking when you posted it though. Day 2 had just started, and you saw the swap of infinity/me, and you said it pointed to Dunn. How so?

I've called out Dunn in games and he immediately retorts back, but I've felt uncomfortable with his maybe-townread of me given that other circumstances make me think he'd be less reluctant

What other circumstances?

Me and Dunn clash a lot. I think last game we were together, I had a fleeting nullish to scum read on him (Popcorn) and it always came down to dissenting opinion. The game before that we were both jsut town. I like Dunn and I think he's a well-rounded player, but I always give myself a bit of leeway reading him. Dunn will almost always be null to me until he either A) Reveals something about his play I can pick up on B) interacts with me in such a way that I think is more telling of the times I have scumread him. I think B is the reality I am working with right now. That being said, I don't think Dunn is very good at retorting a complete argument, rather he'll do what he did to me earlier and just break it down. Very annoying to deal with especially if you have a scumread on him, because he will always look like the sane man in the argument.

I feel like I'm missing something. I was hoping the explanation would clarify your earlier post about feeling like Dunn's read of you should be less reluctant. (which I added back so I could see it all in one place).

This kiiinda bothers me. I mean, yeah, we have to care about what other minigames think about our minigame/us, but the reads of you that really matter (aside from helping you sort the Gate) are your minigame.

At this point of Day 2 you've focused on Dunn exclusively in the Wall.

That's just the hand I was dealt with really. I felt pressured in that moment to try and make out some good enough reasoning as to why I think it's Dunn and then in my head found some way to pair S_S with him. I winged it in some aspects, but I genuinely do this all the time. I have a tendency to get a thought and then use that thought as a baseline. My first feeling into this day was actually not 'ok S_S is scum', which is why I was trying to slowly build up to it and assess the room. I was coming into the day more ready to battle with Dunn and then wanting to gauge S_S/Catboi's independent reactions to me. It didn't work out as I planned and I should've just practiced restraint. That being said, what do you think about Catboi/Dunn being a potential pairing? I thought about what I said earlier in regards to S_S/Dunn not really interacting but I can't say Catboi/Dunn have either. I think Dunn right now leans Catboi but it seems like Catboi doesn't really give a shit, in fact I'd even say he doesn't really care about anything going on in the Wall.

I'm at a loss for associatives right now, but I'll take a look at the interactions between both Dunn/catboi and Dunn/S_S

~hollow laugh~


What changed S_S back from town here?

Did I switch him back? I was just shooting the shit and trying to calm myself down, making jokes in the process. No deeper thoughts

Well, you had him as a townread on Day 1 and you entered Day 2 retracting the read, but I don't see an explanation for the read-change.

(I deleted the parts of your reply that I don't have followup questions for.

[Lukewarm]

Dunn, what changed your mind on the best order for us resolve the minigames?

Spoiler:

I think we resolve the

Keep

first. I strongly suspect that Infinity 324 flips scum. I wouldn't mind either Briar or Anastasia being the one chosen.

Personally, I'd rather we solved the Gate first

In my mind, I already know the deal with Keep and don't see a need to flip it right away. I'm looking at the Gate right now, and if it's a scum elim, do Keep next. If not, we can work on Wall

[Dunnstral]

I thought about it some more and it made sense to me to keep the keep around so we had more people to talk to

[unwnd]

I want to understand what you were thinking when you posted it though. Day 2 had just started, and you saw the swap of infinity/me, and you said it pointed to Dunn. How so?

I felt it lead to Dunn for poor logic reasons and I realize a lot of it was just being overly excited. Mind you those comments were made when I was thinking 'oh shit, Dunn/Infinity both got caught out'. My resolution to this however is that Dunn's vote didn't matter, to which he finally agreed upon in his #1864.

I feel like I'm missing something. I was hoping the explanation would clarify your earlier post about feeling like Dunn's read of you should be less reluctant. (which I added back so I could see it all in one place).

Less reluctant probably isn't what I meant to say and it's just more mental errors. I meant more reluctant. I think I described that in my wall regardless. If I had to reiterate that point it's just a matter of how we've interacted with another recently. In Popcorn I even said something along the lines of 'I guess we're both just shit at reading each other'. In that game however Dunn was just scum and I eventually started to realize he was, and confbias here but he's having very similar reactions lol

Well, you had him as a townread on Day 1 and you entered Day 2 retracting the read, but I don't see an explanation for the read-change.

(I deleted the parts of your reply that I don't have followup questions for.

My read on someone doesn't start with white hot conviction. It needs time to develop. When Catboi/S_S were confirmed to have scum, I had to think about why I TR S_S and I realized my reasons were very shallow. I was already leaning that way based on my own reading overnight but I didn't have much to back it up I also realized that I was maybe giving Catboi too much shit, and I only had like maybe one or two interactions which I resolved myself from. I'm not really keen on the fact it still feels like pulling teeth with him (which is odd given that I never felt like Catboi was confrontational with me before), but to repeat myself I much prefer that over S_S who basically said 'oh well I don't give a shit about your read on me'.