Open 815: Forest Fire Redux [Endgame]

[Noraa]

Redacted

[Lukewarm]

Redacted

[Lukewarm]

Redacted

[MURDERCAT]

Please do not continue the previous conversation. Thanks.

[Lukewarm]

Sorry if I got too close to the line. Like, read the listmod guidelines, and tried to match the "acceptable" wording - But I totally get why you redacted it. Sorry again :/

[Prism]

I've got some time so I'll type up some responses now and maybe post my general comments later.

That self vote was bad in some ways. It was a gambit that I decided to pull. It obviously didn't work out but I had confidence that no one would hammer me except Prism. I took the risk of Prism hammering me which lead to ... well ... prism hammering me. I pull this gambit occasionally. It doesn't always work but sometimes it works and gets me much further into the game. Was worth a shot given I needed T3 on my side to win this!

Unfortunately I was never going to vote outside of you today; I was very confident that ended the game from the minute I reread Child. I wanted more from T3 as insurance for Elo but the minute you presented me with hammer I was always going to take it. I wasn't persuaded at all persuaded by the the wall I requested but was too distracted to respond to it which I felt kind of bad about.

Fuck me. An impossible game in an impossible slot.

this game is brutal for scum.
if town can post after death, scum should be able to post after death

I think the frustration w/ not being able to cheer on or assist a partner is valid but this setup really favors scum mechanically IMO. 2v7 mountainous is scumsided, and while the stumps/chance of gaining an extra elim from voting out someone primed doesn't really outweigh the value of nightkill info. Just for an example of how this plays out, I alluded to this Day 2/3 but bussing convincingly in this game is outright gamewinning, while in a normal game you'd have to explain still being alive. I think that for a mix of irl circumstances and experience reasons the original scumteam was a bit out of depth-town had a seriously All-Star cast. This left impossibly little room for error on either of your ends.

Noraa, i wanted to set up skitter → hectic → ydrasse for my scum partner, but i never had the chance to verbalize it so it's sad (because child wasn't communicating with me). that's why i didn't actually try to contribute to a counterwagon, so that they can't read into it.

This was actually a very good plan IMO.

i could have pointed out my bussing meta on my scum partner so they can use it as a narrative. alas.

I actually had this meta handy as I had spectated the Newbie where you bussed orctin. Figuring out how to incorporate it was tough, but when I realized that your position was too precarious to actually do it, this provided a really useful tip.

i think i would have had a better chance at deepwolfing myself if i had the opportunity to start the game from the beginning. alas.

100% agree.

GG Town. Not my best performance. Prism, you should teach me how to play this game.

You really, really kicked it up a notch after I directly challenged you. I think townreading me/Infinity was a mistake but I was deeply, deeply worried I would not be able to force you through and I was a bit underhanded in trying to intentionally stall out other wagons to make it happen. While I had an instinct you were a player with strong AtE, I got very lucky with the "promise" reference being such a clear+easy demonstration as to kill the townreads on the spot. Without it selling others would have been incredibly difficult.

Also, everyone complimenting my scum game and saying how I'm valuable feels so sarcastic because I failed to save myself

See above, you made that way, way much harder than it should have been even if you came up short in the end.

[MURDERCAT]

Sorry if I got too close to the line. Like, read the listmod guidelines, and tried to match the "acceptable" wording - But I totally get why you redacted it. Sorry again :/

All good! Just being extra careful

[Lukewarm]

@Noraa, I think you did great this game, regardless of whether you got caught or not.

I just think the town also did a great job of finding each other this game. And ended up with a strong town block, and that is pretty powerful in helping town win games.

Jonny and Child both being VLA for parts of Day 1, meant that the scum team just was not present to spread doubt and keep us from finding each other. I think that by the time you repped in, it was just a little too late.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think townreading me/Infinity was a mistake

Townreading you two was the reason I got the 180. Everyone mindmelded with me all in one swoop. But what killed me was the declaration that I wasn't going to vote until you two did. That was overkill, and I shouldn't have done that.

Also, I replaced at a time where I 100% didn't have the time to save myself. I think if I was 100% prepared to be in this situation, I could. But I didn't read the game prior to replacing in

[Prism]

All my reasons to TR prism were great and I didn't once doubt my read.

You absolutely saved me this game on at least two occasions.

sorry for repping out, sorry for not being the Best tm this game, was fun to spectate the end of it. gg everyone!

It was fun having you, and your read on Child was quite good and my read on you quite bad. Thanks for putting up with it as long as you did.

Well, what'd you know

classic coattail rider smh (jk ty 4 all the help+dealing w/ me early game)

Gg everyone
My reads wsre horrible, thanks for the carry

Thanks mc for modding

It happens, and your vote out Day 2 was kind of my fault. I was sick but that was a really bad/lazy vote and I should have fought it rather than lazily said "eh yeah sure why think/read at all". Later I literally solved the game

while driving around having not read for a week

, so that vote was inexcusable IMO

[Prism]

I think townreading me/Infinity was a mistake

Townreading you two was the reason I got the 180. Everyone mindmelded with me all in one swoop. But what killed me was the declaration that I wasn't going to vote until you two did. That was overkill, and I shouldn't have done that.

Also, I replaced at a time where I 100% didn't have the time to save myself. I think if I was 100% prepared to be in this situation, I could. But I didn't read the game prior to replacing in

Mmmmm I believe it started well before with people like Ydrasse/T3, but it really depended on the aim. I took it as an attempt to sway me/Infinity, with an adapative pivot later to the "Prism tunneling" angle when that didn't work. I think it was a valid strategy that got what you wanted if you were fine with me scumreading you, and like I said I had to be a bit underhanded with intentionally stalling out wagons elsewhere to get it.

[humaneatingmonkey]

My plan to get you to townread me was point out that you are tunnelling and that you are an egocentric person who didn't want to be wrong. But I was on a date.

[Infinity 324]

TRing me kinda worked on me tbh

I just TRed everyone else too much

[Infinity 324]

Also prism helped get me back on track

[humaneatingmonkey]

Prism is a boss

[Lukewarm]

I am still baffled by the strength of the town reads on me. I have never been town read this much in any game I have ever played in. I feel like I need to study this game to figure out what I did. Like this is the game I should be aiming to emulate in a scum game.

[Prism]

Okay, now for some general comments:

We got lucky in a few ways. First, Johnny wasn't around to hammer me. Second, I got a one-in-a-million with that easy reference for the strength of HEM's scum appeals. I think this game was sealed by a combination of Hectic taking notice of those findings, Infinity somehow maintaining that scumread on HEM when I was sure everyone else would flip+finally revoting with me, and Lukewarm for following Infinity's vote. From there, I think the interactions and amount of obvious town were just way too strong to overcome.

Getting sick Day 2 really sucked, I didn't revisit at all and just kind of threw up my hands and said "Yeah sure let's go Skitter I like that quote about HEM TMI that Hectic found". The second I recovered and really chewed on the game it all became pretty straightforward, and while I had the help of skitter's flip by that point I can't help but be dissatisfied for missing the shutout.

I think Noraa replaced into a tough situation and did her best+tried some interesting things, but I want to be more constructive with my feedback. As I brought up, I was very concerned that the timeline behind the reads didn't match up to the point I felt it was a scumclaim. I also strongly doubted the Lukewarm scumread and really felt it was going for the hail mary "too dumb 4 scum" angle. At some point a hail mary becomes tempting but I think playing a calmer game, townreading who you need to, and then seeing what happens after T3 flip would have netted better results. Something like the "vote me today" gambit was about what I expected in light of the Lukewarm push, and while T3's latest content still wasn't fleshed out it really didn't drive it to selfvote territory and I felt very comfortable calling the selfvote bluff because of it.

Lukewarm played extremely well start to finish; great reads all around and even when he scumread me I understood why and didn't blame him. I don't have a lot of constructive criticism here other than to illuminate for him why he was so townread. First, you had only one scumgame on record where you were a lot stiffer and not as loose/original with your reads. Second, though, the conversation I describe here was the moment you became locktown to me. Looping back and continuing to investigate a conversation after it's ended and a scum-Lukewarm would be sitting comfortably bled town. Faking this with so little experience, and especially in contrast with the one sample we had from you, would have been insane. This isn't to say scum-you is going to be bad or can't fake this stuff, but this would have been one of the fastest+most complete improvements in a single game I had ever seen.

[Prism]

Finally, thank you Murdercat for modding and the comments! I also apologize for referencing a bit of the "posting elsewhere" with other games, which isn't a favorite of mine either and I use very grudgingly.

[Satoru Nakata]

Nakata has a few thoughts. Firstly, Nakata is glad that he was playing with people with good reads! Nakata is more or less glad that he had his PoE correct, but Nakata is prone to paranoia and can’t guarantee he wouldn’t have ended up paranoia-voting Hectic or Prism tomorrow if he’d got his T3 flip. So Nakata is glad that despite being wrong on friend skitter30 he didn’t get in the way of town too much.

Secondly, Nakata thinks that friend Noraa misplayed here a bit, and that the main lesson she should consider is not rocking the boat when solo-scumming in a tricky list. Nakata is also not very good at scum but thinks this is more due to poor execution on his part than lack of understanding of what should be done. Nakata thinks that the way for Noraa to win was probably to go after Nakata today for being wrong on skitter30, and then to go for either T3 or Hectic tomorrow depending on skitter30’s paranoia there. Nakata thinks it was probably a mistake to try to go after the widely townread friend Lukewarm which stood out in a bad way from the rest of the list. Solo scum want to blend in if possible.

Nakata stands by displays of emotion such as that put on by friend Noraa as distasteful in that they force scum to go to unpleasant lengths to stand a chance when exhibited in an alignment indicative fashion. Nakata acknowledges that the display here was genuine and not linked to Noraa trying to get TR, otherwise Nakata would be severely displeased with Noraa. However, Nakata thinks it safer to try to save such posts for postgame or other forums outside of the game to avoid potential spillover.

[Satoru Nakata]

Nakata would also like to thank lord Murdercat for moderating, and to generally thank his fellow players for being a pleasant bunch!

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm played extremely well start to finish; great reads all around and even when he scumread me I understood why and didn't blame him. I don't have a lot of constructive criticism here other than to illuminate for him why he was so townread. First, you had only one scumgame on record where you were a lot stiffer and not as loose/original with your reads. Second, though, the conversation I describe here was the moment you became locktown to me. Looping back and continuing to investigate a conversation after it's ended and a scum-Lukewarm would be sitting comfortably bled town. Faking this with so little experience, and especially in contrast with the one sample we had from you, would have been insane. This isn't to say scum-you is going to be bad or can't fake this stuff, but this would have been one of the fastest+most complete improvements in a single game I had ever seen.

Thanks for pointing that out. I will make sure that I try something like that in my first real scum game (still not counting the marathon lol).

So now, all I need to do is actually roll scum, and that to happen in a game that none of you are in, because you all get to read me plan for it

[Prism]

Secondly, Nakata thinks that friend Noraa misplayed here a bit, and that the main lesson she should consider is not rocking the boat when solo-scumming in a tricky list. Nakata is also not very good at scum but thinks this is more due to poor execution on his part than lack of understanding of what should be done. Nakata thinks that the way for Noraa to win was probably to go after Nakata today for being wrong on skitter30, and then to go for either T3 or Hectic tomorrow depending on skitter30’s paranoia there. Nakata thinks it was probably a mistake to try to go after the widely townread friend Lukewarm which stood out in a bad way from the rest of the list. Solo scum want to blend in if possible.

In general I really agree with this, though I'm a bit torn as to how I expect pushing Nakata to have gone. I'm a bit biased by how obviously town they were to me but I think playing for SN/T3 into a flexible Day 4 posed a better chance.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Prism, how do you read slots? I genuinely want your help on this because I'm a charismatic bulldozer as town, but it's the same style that scum take advantage of because they can easily hide under me. my reads are based on gut and determining if the process/POV is genuine/viable. I think my methods are a bit outdated or I still don't understand some aspects of reading.

[MURDERCAT]

I also apologize for referencing a bit of the "posting elsewhere" with other games, which isn't a favorite of mine either and I use very grudgingly.

This is actually explicitly allowed as long as you don't describe anything about the posts

[humaneatingmonkey]

Prism, how do you read slots? I genuinely want your help on this because I'm a charismatic bulldozer as town, but it's the same style that scum take advantage of because they can easily hide under me. my reads are based on gut and determining if the process/POV is genuine/viable. I think my methods are a bit outdated or I still don't understand some aspects of reading.

I also have a very bad case of OMGUS tunnelling as town.