Open 821 | Fall With Your Friends | Endgame

[MURDERCAT]

I find working together with people fun. I don't think the mentality where optimal play and enjoyment are in opposition to one another is correct.

Fair enough, I just think that it loses some uniqueness if you play it that way

[Prism]

Congratulations to the scumteam on a well-earned win.

As for post-mortem, I think this game was pretty straightforward. I advocated slowing down to increase accuracy/avoid bad impulse decisions, and I advoacted pairing off with my top townread so as not to burn it all game. I then got antsy and decided to YOLO accept my 4th level townlean (???) before my flight rather than making the game wait 2/3 days for me to get home and revisit. I justified it to myself by using Murder as a proxy failsafe despite knowing he was completely wrong on HEM. I did all of this despite knowing that my impulse reads are horrendous and that I need serious 2/3 hour focus sessions in order to play well. I got what I deserved, and S_S had set himself up perfectly to capitalize on it-half on purpose with the trust following cat, half by fortune w/ the flights.

This should have been a cautionary tale but it wasn't, and we fell victim to similar. inutile gave pretty solid content and there wasn't as much to glean from the S_S flip as we would have liked. Very well played from the scumteam-I think this is Trust Fall's first scumwin?

I think cat's page 6 read on me was horrible and really poisoned the well for me, but I definitely had content later to fix it-631's butthurt paranoia on HEM was a classic town-catboi move that I saw, recognized realtime, and said "but underexplained reads, NO". Dannflor/S_S were a bit tougher and I just wish I had more experience with them. I also thought that Infinity playing so heavily for Murder early on was a big strategic mistake and it really took time to undo that damage.

I also still think that Hectic/Ydrasse opting not to play the game with this playerlist was a shame, and the level of the remainder of the game justified this. I wish we had had two people who were as genuinely passionate about the game as the other 8.

[Prism]

With two scum in my top 5 and a basically instantly losing trust, this game was mostly on me despite the criticism elsewhere.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I also still think that Hectic/Ydrasse opting not to play the game with this playerlist was a shame

True I wanted more Hectic and Ydrasse. Kinda why I also thought it was a shame that you exited so early.

[Infinity 324]

I also thought that Infinity playing so heavily for Murder early on was a big strategic mistake and it really took time to undo that damage.

?

[humaneatingmonkey]

this game was mostly on me

oh stop

[Ydrasse]

sorry u_u;

[Dannflor]

I felt there was a lot of history and meta experiences between players in this plist that I really struggled to read the interactions of, and I let it demotivate me. I wish I could try again and give it more energy. I was also pretty disappointed that two of the players I knew / have had the most experience with before left immediately

[Prism]

I've had games stall out & get demoralized trying to adjust to my extremely slow pace before, and I think in hindsight that fear was a bit unfounded here. People definitely expected me to take more time and probably wouldn't have minded for me to wait. Maybe I still pick S_S in the end but I at least don't hardthrow.

Obviously I liked your play this game, though most of it was simply because of how divergent it was (imo) from the previous scumgame. A lot bolder/willingness to take control or really put the pressure on people to perform.

[Dannflor]

I had specifically asked for more time but I did obviously know that wasn't likely to be listened to given I was a consensus scum read

[Prism]

I also thought that Infinity playing so heavily for Murder early on was a big strategic mistake and it really took time to undo that damage.

?

I think I explained this enough ingame, no offense. It took a lot of effort from multiple players to get reads out of you, which you then took credit for as though you did it basically unprompted and you did all the work for by giving them so what's the issue? This made it a lot harder both because we spent so much of our own time/effort figuring out what to ask you & how to get you to answer, and made it harder to believe the thoughts in response were genuine. Speaking personally, I came around to a townread later but I think it could have happened much sooner.

[Prism]

I had specifically asked for more time but I did obviously know that wasn't likely to be listened to given I was a consensus scum read

You, cat, HEM, list goes on. That YOLO trust was stupid, no doubt about it.

[catboi]

This should have been a cautionary tale but it wasn't, and we fell victim to similar. inutile gave pretty solid content and there wasn't as much to glean from the S_S flip as we would have liked. Very well played from the scumteam-I think this is Trust Fall's first scumwin?

Nope, only town win was the run before this one, scum are 3/4 although one of those was the heavily scumsided 9p version.

I felt there was a lot of history and meta experiences between players in this plist that I really struggled to read the interactions of, and I let it demotivate me. I wish I could try again and give it more energy. I was also pretty disappointed that two of the players I knew / have had the most experience with before left immediately

Sorry about that, I tried to curtail that sort of talk precisely because I felt it would be unproductive but I guess I didn't do enough. I feel like you kind of got shut out from my early read and that just kind of stuck and people were unwilling to give you space. I wish I'd pulled the trigger on trusting you when I had a moment of "hey, he might actually be town", but as with the rest of the game I was overcautious. Difficulty of this setup, I guess, with my personality I never want to act recklessly.

[Prism]

This should have been a cautionary tale but it wasn't, and we fell victim to similar. inutile gave pretty solid content and there wasn't as much to glean from the S_S flip as we would have liked. Very well played from the scumteam-I think this is Trust Fall's first scumwin?

Nope, only town win was the run before this one, scum are 3/4 although one of those was the heavily scumsided 9p version.

Must be thinking of another setup, whoops

I felt there was a lot of history and meta experiences between players in this plist that I really struggled to read the interactions of, and I let it demotivate me. I wish I could try again and give it more energy. I was also pretty disappointed that two of the players I knew / have had the most experience with before left immediately

Sorry about that, I tried to curtail that sort of talk precisely because I felt it would be unproductive but I guess I didn't do enough. I feel like you kind of got shut out from my early read and that just kind of stuck and people were unwilling to give you space. I wish I'd pulled the trigger on trusting you when I had a moment of "hey, he might actually be town", but as with the rest of the game I was overcautious. Difficulty of this setup, I guess, with my personality I never want to act recklessly.

Seconding this-I appreciated the content you gave but never took the time how to figure out what to ask you/what to look for to get you more involved. This is a shame since you really went out of your way to try and give reads+reasoning early on Day 2 and I was like "Well this is nice, wellreasoned, but probably within this person's range so back to reading HEM/Infinity I guess". I didn't take the time to engage you to really figure you out, and was too content to let you sit in nullscum by default.

[Infinity 324]

I think I explained this enough ingame, no offense. It took a lot of effort from multiple players to get reads out of you, which you then took credit for as though you did it basically unprompted and you did all the work for by giving them so what's the issue? This made it a lot harder both because we spent so much of our own time/effort figuring out what to ask you & how to get you to answer, and made it harder to believe the thoughts in response were genuine. Speaking personally, I came around to a townread later but I think it could have happened much sooner.

I think I have a lot of work to do as far as making my towngame more readable goes, but this is not at all how I saw the situation. I didn't see an inherent necessity to out all my reads in what was essentially early d1, and once monkey asked me to I did so, I don't know where you got "a lot of effort from multiple players"? If someone asked me to lay out my reads before that point, I totally missed it. I struggled a lot this game with balancing transparency with observing the gamestate in order to get the best reads, since I think especially in this setup that scum can use that info to manipulate the gamestate and get trust falls more easily. If you have advice on how to balance that better I'd appreciate it.

[Prism]

I think a lot of players were worried about that "info to manipulate gamestate" when they really didn't have to be. Information is inherently +town; your townreads/scumreads that you're trying to hide came from people posting thoughts. It's noise/dilution that you should worry about. It's significantly easier for scum to just let people be black boxes.

As scum they have to tailor their reads to

both

get townread

and

avoid two town trusting. As an example, even though it paid off in the end S_S really took a huge risk by encouraging me/HEM. He outed that read precisely because he felt forced to by fear of opposing it and being up shit creek later, but the more direct result was town one pairing away from winning and ~maybe~ scum will get compensation via a trust in 5 way. We forced him to pick a poison.

[Dannflor]

Seconding this-I appreciated the content you gave but never took the time how to figure out what to ask you/what to look for to get you more involved. This is a shame since you really went out of your way to try and give reads+reasoning early on Day 2 and I was like "Well this is nice, wellreasoned, but probably within this person's range so back to reading HEM/Infinity I guess". I didn't take the time to engage you to really figure you out, and was too content to let you sit in nullscum by default.

And you likely weren't wrong to think that it was still within my range, that was my best attempt to pull out of it but some games I really struggle to of my own volition be like... ahhhh how do I correctly townspew here without seeming desperate

[Infinity 324]

I think a lot of players were worried about that "info to manipulate gamestate" when they really didn't have to be. Information is inherently +town; your townreads/scumreads that you're trying to hide came from people posting thoughts. It's noise/dilution that you should worry about. It's significantly easier for scum to just let people be black boxes.

As scum they have to tailor their reads to

both

get townread

and

avoid two town trusting. As an example, even though it paid off in the end S_S really took a huge risk by encouraging me/HEM. He outed that read precisely because he felt forced to by fear of opposing it and being up shit creek later, but the more direct result was town one pairing away from winning and ~maybe~ scum will get compensation via a trust in 5 way. We forced him to pick a poison.

If I felt like I was generating very little readable content I would certainly out my reads so that people have something to work with. But I don't know what people need to be able to read me. Looking back, I think you were trying to tell me that you needed more from me a little earlier, but I could not understand at all what you were saying, at least the portion of it that was relevant to what I should do in the game, so that might me part of the problem here.

I put a lot of value on my reads being difficult to manipulate. I don't have any confidence in my ability to win the WIFOM game against scum, so if I give all of my thought process unprompted I'm running a pretty big risk of telling scum exactly how to beat me.

[Prism]

I put a lot of value on my reads being difficult to manipulate. I don't have any confidence in my ability to win the WIFOM game against scum, so if I give all of my thought process unprompted I'm running a pretty big risk of telling scum exactly how to beat me.

I think about this fundamentally differently. You want to force the other alignment to make hard/difficult decisions. The entire premise of mafia is is that town have an inherent advantage in finding each other given more information. Being forthcoming with reads/explanations is not really dangerous as town; for scum, who have to avoid certain votes at all cost, it is both very tasking & risky. If they are playing specifically around conforming to your stated expectations moving forward (which has limits because these are generally observations about the past and rarely the future, ie. no time machine to adjust backwards)/tricking you directly or encouraging your wrong reads more subtly, they are leaving themselves more vulnerable to losing to the other town players who have their own expectations/sets of reads.

Even in the best case scenario where scum can successfully conform to your expectations in a way that rectifies even past mistakes, the amount of time and effort this takes is tolling enough to give town other opportunities.

[Infinity 324]

The past/future thing is why I'm more hesitant to out reasons for my reads early d1 than at any other point, where I'm mostly just laying everything out. That said, I'll definitely experiment with being more open when I notice an instinct to do otherwise.

[clidd]

Sad, I was reading the game and rooting for town but the ending was a bit anticlimactic. Regardless, the setup concept is fun, I definitely want to try playing some version of it in the future.

[Something_Smart]

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