Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)

[furtiveglance]

You need to be aware of how you're perceived and why. That's the first step to being involved in the town. If you just push your own agenda and ignore us all the time, it's not easy townread you. You didn't really engage with my idea of giving Goldfish the info, what do you think about that? I get that you prefer yourself, but do think Goldfish is scum? Or just a likely nightkill target? What's the issue here.

Yes this is my concern - Dunn appears more desperate to just get the info themselves instead of willingly engaging with alternative choices beyond Goldfish if they don't want them to be informed here. Dunn surely TR's more than one player here - if that's the case, why not suggest they are informed? We're not going to get anywhere if the game is just full of players all wanting to be informed themselves.

Exactly - I want to be informed as well, but I'm trying to co-operate.

[Radical Rat]

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't buy that Alianna is confirmed town at all, ultimately the wagon never went through and Titus still got voted. Is there anything that rules out an Alianna/Flea combo here where Alianna backs out of voting Titus to then allow Flea to jump in, as an example?

[MalcolmTucker]

I really fundamentally don't think we should be giving this power to anyone who's been heavily suspected thus far, just far, far too risky. Need to consider the consequences if scum gets their hands on the inform power. Again I note that the people suggesting alternatives to Goldfish seem to be very much teetering around what they actually think of Goldfish as a player here.

[Radical Rat]

Sure, that's POSSIBLE, but to what end? Why not just have Flea hammer properly, instead of dancing around?

[Radical Rat]

I really fundamentally don't think we should be giving this power to anyone who's been heavily suspected thus far, just far, far too risky. Need to consider the consequences if scum gets their hands on the inform power. Again I note that the people suggesting alternatives to Goldfish seem to be very much teetering around what they actually think of Goldfish as a player here.

I think Goldfish is a very likely kill target on account of being a consensus townread.

At the present moment, I townread her as well, but it doesn't do any good to inform someone who gets shot.

[furtiveglance]

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

This logic is bizarre and cyclical because it assumes town!Alianna initially. The way I see it, Alianna was the counter wagon to confirmed town. That's the only thing I care about. Alianna does not get towncred for being the counter wagon to the nightkill, because that implies that me/Malcolm are scum. Which is untrue/I would be shocked if Malcolm was mafia. So Alianna is no more town than yesterday for me.

[Radical Rat]

It does not assume Town!Alianna, it assumes that scum would push a favorable elimination over an unfavorable one, and neither eliminating the nightkill, nor a partner is favorable to scum. Eliminating Town that isn't slated to be the nightkill is favorable, ergo that would be scum's goal.

[Radical Rat]

But yes, you are correct in that it implies at least one scum in you/Malcom.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sure, that's POSSIBLE, but to what end? Why not just have Flea hammer properly, instead of dancing around?

Because it surely looks worse if two mafia are unapologetically on a bandwagon for town, no? If they were a team the gambit worked for some players like yourself - try to convince everyone Alianna is less scummy by jumping off the wagon for a bit. It's not as if they ever tried to substantively push an alternative afterwards.

[MalcolmTucker]

I really fundamentally don't think we should be giving this power to anyone who's been heavily suspected thus far, just far, far too risky. Need to consider the consequences if scum gets their hands on the inform power. Again I note that the people suggesting alternatives to Goldfish seem to be very much teetering around what they actually think of Goldfish as a player here.

I think Goldfish is a very likely kill target on account of being a consensus townread.

At the present moment, I townread her as well, but it doesn't do any good to inform someone who gets shot.

It's fundamentally a leap in logic for me though to suggest Goldfish is the one who's likely to get shot. They look very townie to me and I think their analysis/posts have been solid, but I wouldn't say they've necessarily been leading the town in a way I think Furtive is trying to do, or in the way Titus briefly tried to do D1 when they strongly pushed for going for two kills. If Furtive is town, for example, they could potentially be in trouble. If scum somehow agree with you Alianna looks townie, they could have been the target...albeit I imagine that's unlikely. If someone's had a strong push so far that's not gotten a lot of attention they could be targeted. It's all hypothetical. Either way I reckon we need to be giving this inform power to a strong, consensus townread here because the alternative - where we hand it to someone we acknowledge could be scum - is far too risky.

[Radical Rat]

Sure, that's POSSIBLE, but to what end? Why not just have Flea hammer properly, instead of dancing around?

Because it surely looks worse if two mafia are unapologetically on a bandwagon for town, no? If they were a team the gambit worked for some players like yourself - try to convince everyone Alianna is less scummy by jumping off the wagon for a bit. It's not as if they ever tried to substantively push an alternative afterwards.

Except in this case it looks better to be on the wagon. Titus elimination was detrimental to scum. They COULD have elected to push her through anyway for the towncred of playing anti-scum, but if that were the goal, it makes more sense to commit to the gambit and be unambiguous about it. Especially since Titus pretty much wrote her own scumcase by using provably false meta and AtE shit, it would have been easy to justify as coming from a Town perspective.

[furtiveglance]

In light of Titus getting smoked, I'll add Cat.Jpeg to the townbloc. Their recent posting has been towny. I'm seeing 2 mafia in Alianna/Dunnstral/Radical Rat.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

I also townread cat, so if she wants she can join the 2090 townblock (although we'll have to change the name)

[Radical Rat]

In light of Titus getting smoked, I'll add Cat.Jpeg to the townbloc. Their recent posting has been towny. I'm seeing 2 mafia in Alianna/Dunnstral/Radical Rat.

How does the Titus kill suggest Cat is Town?

[Alianna]

Flea voting for Titus slightly dampens my townread there.

How so?
For me it did the opposite, pushing an elimination on the intended nightkill doesn't make sense for scum unless the wagon is on their partner.

This cements my TR on Flea. scum!Flea would have no reason to revote Titus over putting me at E-1 there.

[Alianna]

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

This is ballsy and I'm not sure I agree with it. The Inform ability doesn't mean much if town doesn't trust the informed, and if we vote me, they don't ("they" as in "the rest of the town", I've been scumread for this before).
I support informing Goldie but I'd consider alternatives.

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

The Inform ability doesn't mean much if town doesn't trust the informed

I agree with Alianna here, which is why even though the points about scum intentionally killing the person they think will get informed are valid, we should vote for someone who is fairly widely townread so there is no dispute about the results.

[Cat.Jpeg]

Why would they hate that?

We're at evens right now.

She was very opposed to skipping elim and I thought she would hate the fact that what happened was like skipping elim twice. Although looking back she wanted VCA data which we still got so nvm.

[Cat.Jpeg]

It's fundamentally a leap in logic for me though to suggest Goldfish is the one who's likely to get shot. They look very townie to me and I think their analysis/posts have been solid, but I wouldn't say they've necessarily been leading the town in a way I think Furtive is trying to do, or in the way Titus briefly tried to do D1 when they strongly pushed for going for two kills. If Furtive is town, for example, they could potentially be in trouble. If scum somehow agree with you Alianna looks townie, they could have been the target...albeit I imagine that's unlikely. If someone's had a strong push so far that's not gotten a lot of attention they could be targeted. It's all hypothetical. Either way I reckon we need to be giving this inform power to a strong, consensus townread here because the alternative - where we hand it to someone we acknowledge could be scum - is far too risky.

VOTE: Dunnstral

This is the best vote. You guys might not like it, but it's true. Mafia are very unlikely to have confirmed my alignment

It also makes things a lot simpler. All you have to do is figure out whether I am town or not. Whereas a vote for Goldfish means we need to figure out both if goldfish is town, and if furtive/malcolm/whoever are mafia trying to push it onto the townie who is also the bp,

Dunnstral - The thing is what I said about them maybe BP'ing the person they thought would get eliminated is also a possibility, although unlikely it still means you're a worse candidate than furtive and me. We also very unlikely to get our alignment confirmed but are also are unlikely to be eliminated today. Also ur sus.

Malcolm if you think furtive is at risk of being NK because of how much they are leading town you could always vote for me :) also anyone we vote for we should acknowledge they could be scum. We havent gotten any solid info this game, yet. I do think goldfish is town though. in 578 you said we shouldnt be giving it to anyone who has been heavily suspected except goldfish has been, by RR.
As for the thing before about furtives turnaround on Titus being orchestrated I don't think so. I had forgotten the specific tone of them and after looking back I doubt they were forced. The changed opinion on titus looks like it happened really quickly but it checks out with the fact they waited to give a readlist because they were putting effort into reading everyones iso's.

[Cat.Jpeg]

I dont think goldfish is a bad vote to be informed i just think furtive or i are better and knowing who the BP is would be too useful to pick someone who might die. This game is giving me a headache with thinking about who we are going to elim after the ability phase (i do want it to be rr or Dunn just not sure who). Im not even kidding i genuinely have a headache right now. Dunnstral and Alianna who do you scumread?

[Cat.Jpeg]

Although a part of me does wonder if this is a bit bold from scum Dunn? I don't know, I guess if we have an Alianna/Dunn team (which would be my best bet at the moment), it would be feasible for one of the two of them to want to push receiving the inform role just to give a big push and see what happens.

Dunnstral and Radical Rat have both done bold things in day 2. I would normally read that as town but with the fact that they know they are likely to be eliminated anyway if they played it safe I dont think any 'too bold' reasons should be used today.

[Cat.Jpeg]

I don’t townread Dunn anymore. Note to self - preflip associatives are a bad idea.

I think we all need to rethink things for today,

Of your scumpool I think Alianna and RR are possible scum, but not together, and I townlean Dunnstral

Goldfish you have said you townread dunnstral 3 or 4 times but I cant find where you explained why. Please explain or link to a post if i missed it.
Also Alianna can you explain your post too?

[MegAzumarill]

Votecount 2.0.1

Spoiler: Cake (Large image)

GoldfishFromtheMoon (3) furtiveglance, GoldfishFromtheMoon, MalcolmTucker
Dunnstrall (1) Dunnstrall
Alianna (1) Radical Rat

Not Voting (3): Cat.Jpeg, Alianna, Flea The Magician

With 8 alive it takes 5 to make a decision.
Deadline:(expired on 2022-05-17 00:07:08)

[MegAzumarill]

Prodding Flea the Magician