Open 715 - White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[AnonymousGhost]

/confirm

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - what's your prod policy for people on V/LA? Is there no deadline for the Day length?

[AnonymousGhost]

Hello chikadees~

[AnonymousGhost]

Are you an alt of "somebody I know"? I mean, I know we have met before, but I didn't really catch up on your greetings before!

I subbed into JK9++. The one where you were Town Tracker.

Ring any bells?

[AnonymousGhost]

Chickadee is another MS player, I'm guessing?

Then nope. Not an alt.

[AnonymousGhost]

That's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.

[AnonymousGhost]

Thirding the idea of a back up Mod.

Could we contact the list Mod and get a back up Mod via Llama?

[AnonymousGhost]

You want to do it?

[AnonymousGhost]

Neat. Keep us posted?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Klick

Fair point.

@Athena

I need some clarification.

"I voted you because the humor in 5 felt forced, though saying

it

was serious was more for reactions than anything else."

What are you referring to when you say "it"? Korina's 5 or 31? I think you're referring to 31 because that's when he mentions that he's "serious".

[AnonymousGhost]

If you recognize that Klick has a fair point, why not place a vote or give a read?

Cool. Game's started.

The only tentative read I have is Korina and I don't think their actions have scum motive. Calling attention to yourself with a joke claim, goading people to build your wagon, and then promising to hard claim - which is pointless; no PRs in the set up - when he's at L-1 (he had two votes on him before the game began) doesn't seem like all of those actions are coming from scum.

Scum want to blend in; not create an event that puts them in the spotlight.

[AnonymousGhost]

Fuck all of you, I'm just gonna prodge the rest of the game.

Replace out if this is how you're going to be.

[AnonymousGhost]

Korina = town imo.
COA is sus.
QM is sus.
No reasons ATM other than post read gut for now.

Can you explain these gut reads?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - You missed Korina's self vote in 62.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Korina

If the vote count is anything to go by, this is a true Geriatric Game.

That means no Day Phase deadlines.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Prod Shadpearl? It's been more than 48 hours dmsonce they last posted.

[AnonymousGhost]

Quick Maker: HOW DO YOU HAVE A WEAK SCUMREAD ON SOMEONE LITERALLY VOTING THEMSELVES, YET NOT ALSO VOTE THEM?

@havingfitz- is this why QM is sus to you?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Korina

Here's the link to the Geriatric Ruleset. It should answer your question

Got any reads?

[AnonymousGhost]

I don't think you read the rule set. Your post limit resets to 10 posts every 24 hours during the Day Phase.

I'll hazard a guess. Is the reason you don't like Flubber because he said that you'd be hard to read for weak reasons? IE post reserve limit

[AnonymousGhost]

VOTE: Shadpearl

@Shadpearl

- We're past RVS votes by this point.

You don't have any thoughts on Korina? Russian is town oriented from, presumably, the hydra's interaction w/ Korina. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In my experience, if I form a read from an interaction between two players, I usually create a read on both players. So, what's up with the lack of a read on Korina?

speaking of which, I need to go back and take a look at Roulette again

@Almost50

121 - Feels like IIoA and it's difficult for me to understand. I don't know if this was supposed to be an example demonstrating your method or your actual scum reads. Walk me through it?

This isn't how you're going to organize your town reads, is it?

@RedRussian

Is that vote on Korina a scum vote or a pressure vote?

I don't think voting Korina is necessary to further things there.

@Athena

I take it this means you have a tentative read on Korina?

Note to self - This is post #5 fyi of today

[AnonymousGhost]

Korina asking for hydras to sign is a weak towntell, me thinks. Not gonna totally 'delete' the list with his name on top (and consequently edit out his name from all other lists) but I will strike his name on top of his own list like this:

Korina

Flubbernugget
Shadpearl
Quick Maker
Not_Mafia
CultOfAthena
Klick
Bellaphant
Russian Roulette
AnonymousGhost
havingfitz
Alchemist121

Repeating/paraphrasing stuff is how I comprehend difficult subjects. Bear with me.

So the top name - Korina -

was

a scum read. Now he's a town read due to the sign request.

Okay.

And everybody else after that is currently town, but you're not town reading them just yet? You're just assuming they're town until you form a read on them and then slot them in their proper place?

I think I've got it?

post #6 of the day

[AnonymousGhost]

AG's asking Korina to replace out was not serious, was it? (serious question)

I am serious. I don't want to play with a player who'd knowingly prodge the entire rest of the game and become a liability.

Since Korina hasn't prodge'd since making that post, I'm retracting my sentiment for his replacement.

post #7 for M.14

[AnonymousGhost]

Wouldn't him stating it's a pressure vote defy the purpose of it??

Nope. If Red says that it's for pressure and keeps has his vote on Korina, it has the potential to form a bandwagon and get Korina talking.

So, your name appears on every list that is above yours means you could be scum with them all. Then you could also be scum with either/both of fitz/Alch because they are listed under you. If I ever get to the point where I'm CERTAIN you can't be scum with -say- Korina, your name would disappear from his list, and if I ever get to the point where I'm CERTAIN you can't be scum with Alch then HIS name will disappear from your list. Go it?

I think my lack of understanding came from my impression that you were scum hunting individuals... when you're actually group scum hunting.

Derp.

Okay.

So, I think I have a better understanding of how you're scum hunting:

First of all; you're group hunting.

Second; each player has a separate list which is denoted by the fact that their username is on top and bolded.

Third; any player who is crossed off or gone from another player's list is not scum with the list owner.

Fourth: any remaining players beneath a player's list are being considered to be scum partner's with the list's owner.

Fifth; it doesn't matter who's above or below one another in another player's list and whether or not they're scum with each other. All that matters is that everyone in the list could be scum partners with the list's owner.

Sixth; a player without a list is a town read.

Seventh; everyone who has a list isn't necessarily a scum read, but a PoE of who they could be a scum team with.

8# for today

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Prod Quick Maker? It's been over 2 days since they've posted.

[AnonymousGhost]

You're lying and fishing for reactions.

I ISO'd Korina's MS games and he didn't self hammer in any of them during LyLo.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Korina

- Did you self-hammer in LyLo?

@RussianRoulette

- I'd rather advocate a force replace if Korina's behavior indicates he's going to do something like that in this game.

[AnonymousGhost]

I always self-hammer, like, seriously. Me saying I'll self-hammer is NAI, because I'll do it as any alignment, town or mafia. If I feel my lynch is inevitable that day, yea, I'll self-hammer. If it's MyLo or LyLo, I only self-hammer if I feel it's inevitable, otherwise I typically end up doing it when I read thread again.

Regardless of your alignment in this game you've just described why your play here is terribly anti-town.

Reevaluate your gameplay accordingly

.

[AnonymousGhost]

Generally speaking, this setup is suitable for 1-2 scums to be lurkers on D1 and/or be posting about nothing.

@Almost50

- Usually when late game arrives lurking scum get screwed over by their lack of early game interactions. What makes White Flag different?

@Korina

- That's highly subjective.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Shapearl - What's your read on Athena? Your reason to unvote is weak because Athena had already provided some in depth and thoughtful posts before your joke vote. I would normally assume you no longer scum read her, but your reason to vote for her in the first place throws that out the window.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Almost50 - what's with the + behind someone's name?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Prod Not_Mafia? It's been over 2 days since he last posted.

[AnonymousGhost]

what do you think of Quickmaker? Have you read hydras before? Do you have any tips? >~<

Quick maker is currently nullish town right now. I need to take a look at their posts again for motive.

Interact with them - regardless if they're a hydra or not.

[AnonymousGhost]

I disagree. Shad's posts seem like newb scum.

- No effort to game solve; just hands out an easy town read to RR and CoA and then points the finger at the obvious players w/o engaging Alchemist and Not_Mafia in order to figure out their alignments.

- If Shad was paying attention to the discussion, then he should have formed some opinion about the events that's happened so far i.e. Korina, your push on Bell, Flub's push on Korina, etc. instead of the events that are focusing solely on him and then trying to side step them.

- Parrots other players, most strongly CoA's "I don't think he's contributed to the game at all in a way," with Shad's "Alchemist's posts just... don't have anything to them. Nothing good, but nothing really suspicious either."

- Hedging and handing other people the responsibility to game solve, so that he can shift his opinion in the future if need be: "I'll let you smarter people figure them out.", "haha I didn't really have anyone on my radar so one vote was as good as another.", "Aren't there better people to be focused on?", "Ya'll probably know better than I, haha."

[AnonymousGhost]

@Athena

Saying that Alchemist's posts "just... don't have anything to them," is the same as saying "I don't think he's contributed to the game". It's saying the same thing, but wording it differently.

Where is Shad disagreeing with you?

Pedit:

@Korina

- Instead of wasting time with gambits and not progressing the game, take Flub's suggestion and create some reads based off this bullshit drama.

[AnonymousGhost]

Is this the disagreement?

You are suspicious of Alchemist because he hasn't followed through with his questions/statements.
Shad's suspicious of Alchemist because Al's posts are NAI, but he wants to focus on someone else.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Quickmaker

Your reasons for town reading me are bad. Stuff like asking questions or asking the mod to prod people is NAI.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Alchemist

2 vote for now IIRC: CoA, and Not_Mafia

[AnonymousGhost]

VOTE: Korina

[AnonymousGhost]

I've reached the point where I don't care. I just want Korina gone if he's not going to produce content with his so-called "gambits".

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Prod Bellaphant? It's been over 3 days since she last posted in the thread.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Could a player be force replaced if the majority asked for their replacement?

[AnonymousGhost]

I disagree. Shad's posts seem like newb scum.

- No effort to game solve; just hands out an easy town read to RR and CoA and then points the finger at the obvious players w/o engaging Alchemist and Not_Mafia in order to figure out their alignments.

- If Shad was paying attention to the discussion, then he should have formed some opinion about the events that's happened so far i.e. Korina, your push on Bell, Flub's push on Korina, etc. instead of the events that are focusing solely on him and then trying to side step them.

- Parrots other players, most strongly CoA's "I don't think he's contributed to the game at all in a way," with Shad's "Alchemist's posts just... don't have anything to them. Nothing good, but nothing really suspicious either."

- Hedging and handing other people the responsibility to game solve, so that he can shift his opinion in the future if need be: "I'll let you smarter people figure them out.", "haha I didn't really have anyone on my radar so one vote was as good as another.", "Aren't there better people to be focused on?", "Ya'll probably know better than I, haha."

- Sheeps an easy scum read without providing his own analysis on his vote target or the current state of the game. Check.

[AnonymousGhost]

Thus the deadline for Day 1 is March 28th 22:00 EST.

This is more than 4 days away. Nice appeal to fear though.

Lynch pool: Korina, Shadpearl, and Quick Maker

[AnonymousGhost]

An appeal to fear doesn't plop someone in my lynch pool.

[AnonymousGhost]

Too bad. My play style isn't going to change.

Game is slow as fuck, is boring, and I want to have fun. Can't have it when the game deader than a door nail.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Replacing out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Replacing out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Sorry for being a bitch. I need to fix my attitude. Cancel that replace out.

[AnonymousGhost]

Tired of his bullshit.

>whines about nothing getting done
>does something "drastic" w/o any game solving content
>rinse and repeat

@Quick Maker

- I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think your town read on me is crap. Do you have any thoughts on my case against Shadpearl? Have any of your reads changed based from when you last posted them?

[AnonymousGhost]

Spoiler: my impression of the current game state

@Quick Maker

- I like how you entertain the possibilities/scenarios of all your reads so far since it initially feels town.

I question your scum read on Not_Mafia. It sounds more like a policy lynch born out of Not_Mafia being inscrutable to the both of you.

@Athena & @Bell

- Haven't seen either of you two around. When you two return, could you give us a reads list based on the new content? Thanks.

@RussianRoulette - Specifically MathDino

- Can you explain why Klick's replace out is potentially scum indicative? I'm assuming that it has something to do with Korina's behavior since that was the big thing that happened before the replace out.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Almost50 or @RussianMath

- Why is Alchemist scummy?

[AnonymousGhost]

Asking people why they scum read me isn't fun or engaging. Pass. Nice deflection though.

I'll ask again. What has Alchemist done to make him a scum read to you?

That line of reasoning is weak. Do better.

[AnonymousGhost]

So you're basically scum reading me because of a difference in play style because I'm not "obvious town" enough.

That's a weak reason to scum read someone and you know it. Do better.

The Alchemist argument is crap too. You're basically compromising on someone you don't have a read on, while giving up on your scum read.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - There's an error in the vote count. Korina's not voting for Quick Maker.

[AnonymousGhost]

EWBOP:

Never answered this. My bad.

Short answer: No motivation. Game's atmosphere of apathy is probably having an affect on me. Plus, another factor which I can't say

discussion of ongoing games

[AnonymousGhost]

Game's conditioned as 3 scum versus 10 town.

[AnonymousGhost]

Look again.

310 was me face palming at Korina for assuming that this game has 4 scum. Opening post says otherwise and he'd know that if he was paying attention.

Set Up:
10 Vanilla Townies
3 Mafia Goon

[AnonymousGhost]

Side note: we

shouldn't

have to fix the problem you created. Multiple people complained and ask you to shape up and every time you created a post you had to opportunity to improve. Did you take it? No.

People even gave you suggestions on how to improve - Flub and Russian IIRC -, but you either ignored them or didn't see their suggestions.

[AnonymousGhost]

We aren't responsible for how you play the game. You're the one in the driver's seat.

If you know you're the D1 lynch out of policy, then that should be a sign that you should reevaluate your play style.

[AnonymousGhost]

VOTE: Shadpearl - 3 out of the 4 people in your lynchpool in 261 are based off of a difference in play style. Two out of those three, you've never interacted with them in order to get a better read on them.

[AnonymousGhost]

This is actually a good point on face value, but I think we have established Shad to be confirmed Town for "unspecified reasons". Come to Vij instead.

Nobody is confirmed town unless the mod says so. I'm not banking my read on outside forces. What actions has Shad down so far that are pro-town?

Why should I join Vij's wagon? And no, the foundation of Scum!Klick replaced out because of a suicidal teammate is bad since the basis of that arguement is false.

[AnonymousGhost]

Nothing so far. He's null to me. When he engaged with you on D1, he brought up valid points, but he didn't do anything with them.

Pedit: Never said you were. I was assuming that your wagon on Vij was influenced by Dino.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Vij

- It's past soon on that reads list.

@Not_Mafia

- Yes or No? Is it safe to assume that your votes on D1 were indicative of your scum reads?

[AnonymousGhost]

Yes, I did read the posts made so far. And I disagree with the WIFOM argument you've used to write off both myself and Alchemist as Town. You're ignoring the day play on a hunch of what you think inspired the night play.

[AnonymousGhost]

If I was scum, I would've killed Dino regardless.

Nice red herring.

I'll ask again: what has Vij done to warrant your vote?

[AnonymousGhost]

much pot stirring. Lack of coordination between 284 and 286 is really, really odd.

Can you explain the oddness in further detail?

Mathdino is the kind of player you only keep alive if their reads are bad.

Sounds like you're implying that his reads were good. Which ones did you agree or disagree with?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Bella

I assume that the mod doesn't send them out. I only knew about the Day starting when I saw this game at the top of "View Your Posts".

Why do you town read fitz? Anyone pinging your radar?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Bella - Why are those people pinging you? What's a bill shot? Or was that meant to say 'null' and got auto corrected?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Not_Mafia

- Yes or No? Is it safe to assume that your votes on D1 were indicative of your scum reads?

[AnonymousGhost]

Thanks. Going to make a mental note to ISO your posts with that in mind at a later point.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Not_Mafia

- Are you scum reading Quick Maker for the same, or similar, reasons to fitz or Flubber? Is your declaration in 382 a response to Alchemist's 381?

@Everyone who's having a difficult time reading N_M

- Try using 'yes' or 'no' questions to discern his alignment. The dialogue in 385 and 386 is an indicator that he is willing to engage with us. You just have to ask the right questions.

[AnonymousGhost]

@A50 -Explain your read on Bella.

[AnonymousGhost]

Think I'm nearing my post limit for today (26th)...

IIRC it was Dino who said Bella was lynch bait in one of his final posts.

If you can't scum hunt, then town hunt. And don't put them in that weird format. I will skip it.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Shadpearl

- Are you going to engage with Vij or not?

[AnonymousGhost]

Same thing(s) Shad did to warrant yours.

Points against Shad:

- No effort to game solve
- No reads based off of current events
- Parroting other players
- Hedging

Points that apply to Vij:

- No effort to game solve
- No opinions about current events (currently MIA) and how it relates to players' alignments: notably Vij never touched on who could be town/scum based on Korina's behavior and how they interacted with him
- Closest thing to parroting was in 240
- Only post that's hedgy is 291
- Currently unknown if Vij was sheeping a scum read on Korina - unlikely based on what his posts - or sheeped a policy lynch

@A50

- Explain how you town read Shad. If you scum read Vij for the same reasons I scum read Shad, why is he a town read to you? And no, you can't use reasons that are beyond the realms of this game.

[AnonymousGhost]

I can't and I won't. (And if you can't take a hint then I'm sorry but that's as much as I'm going to say at this time)

Yeah. No. That's not going to cut it.

VOTE: Almost50

Cough it up.

[AnonymousGhost]

Mathdino is the kind of player you only keep alive if their reads are bad.

Actually, I might want to revisit 362

Have you revisited this yet?

AG, to answer your question, the weirdness I was was predicated on them saying they haven't caught up and then posted as if they had talked for some time 2h later. However, I misread the AM/PM in the times, making that 2h actually 14h.

I assume you still find QM suspicious despite having misread their posts?

[AnonymousGhost]

Do you scum read A50 for more than the shad read? Shad is still the proper lynch in that scenario, with A50 being the correct subsequent lynch if shad flips scum.

Nope. It was a pressure vote. Despite disagreeing with the use of his NKA over day play as the way to sort Alchemist and I, it made him a town lean after his hesitancy towards the Korina wagon from D1 due to good thought progression/POE. Like Dino said, A50 could've built a counter wagon if he disagreed with the Korina lynch. I'd have to check where his final vote for D1 was though; can't recall if A50 tried to build a wagon and it flopped ATM. Furthermore, the numerous push backs I've had with him don't seem to be scum motivated. He's, mostly, presenting evidence and then allowing me to come at my own conclusions.

Explain how A50 would be the correct subsequent lynch. Is it because he's town reading a supposed buddy for no reason or something else?

At this point, we agree that Almost50 is a moderate scumread of ours.

This honestly should have been enough for QM to get flashwagoned.

Why's that? Is it because it implies that there's a higher scum read than the moderate one on A50 that they aren't voting for?

OK.. here's me attempting to move between barbed wire and a minefield without tripping:

- ISO SHADPEARL/MATHDINO simultaneoulsy

Now since I only referred to content from THIS thread and ONLY this thread I think I should be alright.

ISO them site wide or within the realm of this game?

VOTE: Shadpearl

[AnonymousGhost]

You suck at giving directions FYI.

I'll take a look at them tomorrow.

[AnonymousGhost]

its pretty easy to see quick maker pulled that read out of their ass.

Huh. Never thought about it like that before.

[AnonymousGhost]

ISO'd Shad's and Math's posts. 262 is when Math says the Shad is "locktown for reasons I can't/shouldn't discuss".

A50's a dead end as to why he town reads Shad. fitz is at null/scum lean ATM via 378.

So, yeah. That was helpful?

[AnonymousGhost]

Spoiler: Read progression on QM

Quick maker is currently nullish town right now. I need to take a look at their posts again for motive.

Lynch pool: Korina, Shadpearl, and Quick Maker

@Quick Maker

- I like how you entertain the possibilities/scenarios of all your reads so far since it initially feels town.

I question your scum read on Not_Mafia. It sounds more like a policy lynch born out of Not_Mafia being inscrutable to the both of you.

ATM... null. QM's analyses are very thorough on people they town read, but are lackluster on people they scum read i.e. N_M and A50. Flubber saying that QM pulled the A50 scum read out of their ass after having the N_M scum read die down is something to consider. As I skim their posts about the reason they scum read A50 and NM, it's more out of a difference in play style than anything else, especially the latter. It's obvious in their interactions w/ NM. Their interactions with A50 is them taking issue with A50 basically gut reading NM.

I hate gut reads because they're anti-town, but it's a lynch bait-y thing to build your scum read on.

[AnonymousGhost]

Spoiler: Alchemist Semi-ISO

77 - Behavioral analysis on Athena.
181 - Votes Shad for pocketing; follows up with that conclusion with 224 and 245.
303 - Reads like a warning to A50 from overcautious/paranoid town, despite small shade throwing.
360 - Reads like cautious/paranoid town who's not relying heavily on NKA.
380 - PL Not_Mafia. Understandable. Vote and reasons came before I asked Not_Mafia the 'yes/no' questions. Vote subject to change?

Verdict: Small town lean

Spoiler: Bella Semi-ISO

97 - 5 town reads.
149 - Explanation for those town reads. Explanation seems natural and aligns with the actions of those she town reads.
368 - Redefining some reasons to town read people.
370 - Explanation for the fitz town read. Pinged by Shad, Am (?), Alchemist, and maybe CoA. Null on Vij.

Verdict: Surface level scum hunting. Null. Waiting for Bella to ISO Shad, Am (?), Alchemist, and CoA again and see what she says about them. Needs to post more. Curious about why CoA is pinging Bella, since Athena was one of Bella's town reads on D1.

Spoiler: Athena Semi-ISO

71 - Rereading this over again and I'm drawing a blank. In hindsight, do you think scum will intentionally act "too scummy to be scum" to avoid detection?
171 - Gut scummed Korina, but Alchemist was scummier. Bit surface level since IIRC other people were doing the same thing Alchemist was at that point.

Verdict: Null and needs to post more. Had good questions and followups on D1, but was surface level i.e. Alchemist. Waiting for more D2 content.

Spoiler: Flub Semi-ISO

140 - Offers suggestions to Korina.
202 - Scum read on RR.
267 - Policy lynches are safe for scum. Interested to hear if there's a followup on this. Looked at final VC and QM was not on Korina's wagon;

@Flub

- is it safe to assume you aren't scum reading QM for being off of Korina's wagon on D1?

Verdict: Nit picky on things that, I think, most people have missed and good analyses. Questions QM's argument for scum reading A50 and NM. Town lean.

Spoiler: fitz Semi-ISO

265 - Reads match the players' actions.
375 - ISO on QM.
376 - Slight town read on Alchemist.
377 - Null read on Bella.
378 - Null/scum lean on Shad.
379 - Gut read on NM? Has your read changed after reading NM's answers to the yes/no questions?

Verdict: Town lean. Proactive in reading people and analyzing their arguments. None of his reads seems unreasonable based on the evidence provided.

Spoiler: Not_Mafia Semi ISO

Naked votes and answers to yes/no questions. Aligns his QM vote w/ fitz and Flub's reasons for reading QM scum. Forgot about Vij. Sounds like town more than scum due to scum's tendency to have heightened awareness of the game state.

Verdict: Tiny town lean based off of the validity of fitz/Flubber's arguments for scum reading QM and lack of awareness.

Spoiler: Vij Semi-ISO

Needs to post more. Referencing 408 makes Vij a scum lean. Checked the VC. Shad pearl voted for Vij, immediately sheeping A50. More thinking needed on whether it affects either of my scum reads on them.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Prod Vijarada? It's been 3 days since D2 start and he hasn't posted yet.

[AnonymousGhost]

Almost50, you better not flip dirty in both of these games because it will screw with my head so much. x_x

This?

[AnonymousGhost]

That's a weak reason to town read someone and you know it.

[AnonymousGhost]

At this point, you're basically validating your town read on Shadpearl based on a dead townie's word. Unless I missed a change in site meta, being dead doesn't make someone's reads right in itself, since scum can basically kill anyone without consequence and send town into the WIFOM rabbit hole.

VOTE: Vijarada - Game's getting dead at this point. Shad's either voting for a scum buddy or he's not. In the latter case, I'm wrong and Shad is town or Shad is scum who's sheeping onto a green wagon.

[AnonymousGhost]

I would argue that that weight doesn't extend to writing someone off as town just off of one sentence and another game alone. That's my issue with A50's town read on Shad atm.

If he created that town read in conjunction to what Shad has done within this game - based off of Shad's lynch pool/posts/reads/etc. - then sure, I'd be more willing to believe it. To dismiss everything else in favor of town reading Shad based one sentence and another game, yeah... no. That's as bad as Quick Maker scum reading A50 and NM based off of a difference in play style without, seemingly, factoring the arguments that the former has made in order to form QM's read on A50.

[AnonymousGhost]

It's surface level scum hunting. And this game seems to have an overabundance of it.

[AnonymousGhost]

Stop trying to funny and play to win. Make reads and interact with other players instead of lurking and posting nothing but fluff.

[AnonymousGhost]

Like... At this point, do you even scum read Vijarada? Or are you just sheeping someone you town read without a second thought?

[AnonymousGhost]

Reevaluating my scum read on Shadpearl alongside Shad's vote on Vijarada. ISO'ing Vijarada reveals that the points that Shad's brought up are valid. I don't see scum motive from Shad - if the two of them were partners together - to point this stuff out w/ the White Flag mechanic in place since it'd probably hurt them both out in the long run.

@Flub

(this was in the spoiler and it only occurred to me after making it that you might not see the question if you don't open the spoiler to begin with. my bad) - On D1, you said that policy lynches are safe for scum. I checked the final VC for D1; QM was not on the Korina wagon. Does QM's absence on the Korina wagon affect your read on them?

@Bella

(also in the spoiler'd section) - Athena was a town read for you on D1. What changed from 91 to 370 that made her 'ping' on your radar?

[AnonymousGhost]

It's the holidays.

[AnonymousGhost]

@fitz

- Is it safe to assume you find Quick Maker scummier than Shadpearl?

[AnonymousGhost]

That's a good post.

UNVOTE:

I need to reevaluate my read on that slot.

@Quick Maker

- Do either of you have any idea why there's such a disparity between your town reads and scum reads? Reference 430 if you don't know what disparity I'm talking about.

[AnonymousGhost]

I liked the thought process for your reads. Specifically your scum read on fitz, since he's one of my town leans. It didn't seem reachy -based on the evidence you used to support your read - and it allowed your reader to come to their own conclusions. I would like to reasses my own town read on fitz and see if your points still hold weight.

Most importantly, it felt game solv-y. Until that point, you had a considerable wagon on you and scum generally want to derail the heat ASAP. They can do this by discrediting the people who voted for them, try to appease the people who voted for them, act town, or game solve. The point is.... it lacks desperation that I've seen - and produced - as scum who've dropped into the hot spot.

Do you see HavingFitz and A50 as scum together?

[AnonymousGhost]

Lazy phone posting. Avoiding a prod.

ISO'd Fitz, Flub, and Quick Maker.

Fitz and Flub seem to take issue with QM's play style more than anything else. PLing NM because NM was being unreadable was dumb, especially since QM didn't interact with NM, but after the D1 PL on Korina I don't think scum would be brazen enough to try another PL, regardless of they were on Korina's wagon or not due to the backlash. Points in favor of QM straight up saying that they'd be willing to PL NM and didn't try to mask it as scum hunting. It's a cut and dry motive that bleeds town. (See below)

NM is unreadable. Therefore, QM advocates a PL.

Despite the lack of effort, the reasoning seems more likely to come from town. You wouldn't want to take an "unreadable" player to LyLo since that would make it easier for scum to hide amongst, so get rid of them when it's not LyLo. (This is what makes QM's PL on NM bleed town IMO)

QM's case on A50 is peculiar only because it takes into account A50's read on NM, despite the fact that A50 has done the same thing regardless their town read on Shadpearl.

@Quick Maker

- Do you believe your case against A50's read on NM can apply to his read on Shadpearl? If not, why not?

@Flubbernugget

- QM was off of Korina's wagon. You said that policy lynches are safe for scum. Do you believe that this statement doesn't apply to QM since they were off the wagon?

[AnonymousGhost]

I tend to focus more on TRs because I am better at making good TRs than good SRs.

Hmm. Okay. I can accept that as the reason why there's a disparity in the level of detail between your town and scum reads.

I mentioned that I focus more on TR early in the game or something close enough anyways:

My bad. I've been skimming some of your chunkier posts, focusing more on the first sentence or two since those are the ones that sum up what you mean to say pretty easily and the rest reads more like a thought spew than an actual organized argument.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Everyone – if you feel my Almost read has validity please let me know. Because this post has all the hallmarks of an attempt to stall out so that pressure doesn’t build after his response to my case. I’d be more than happy to switch over from Having to Almost if there is decent concensus there.

When I'm not tired and half dead, I'll look over your case again. Both of them are town leans to me ATM. Still haven't gotten to reevaluating my fitz read yet to compare your points to it and see if it holds weight. I should be able to sit down and dedicate some time to it after Wednesday, at the latest.

Can you list some of those hallmarks? I'm turning up a blank as to how an emoji could do that.

Just one question: why are you happy to switch your vote? I get that they're both your scum reads, but that last comment pings me as opportunistic.

Although... now that I think about it... it's probably due to the approaching deadline, isn't it?

[AnonymousGhost]

since scum can basically kill anyone without consequence and send town into the WIFOM rabbit hole.

This is exactly why you consider a nk's reads with some sort of weight.

Explain this. What you said is conflicting with what you've done. Or rather, what you haven't done. What's your NKA?

[AnonymousGhost]

I need more justification than this. I mean, one thing I haven't forgotten from this game is 328. Everyone seems to have overlooked this after the Russian Roulette for being "too obvious"? Really?

You're referencing a post and I have no idea what you want me to do with it or how it pertains to RR and/or Alchemist. Elaborate.

[AnonymousGhost]

Fair enough. I can see town motivation there.

[AnonymousGhost]

265 is also the groundwork for some acute Cognitive Dissonance on Having’s part – he’s basically waiving Anon away from “Mini-Modding” saying that she should just play the game. Yet later he’s doing the exact same thing at 276 and 452.

Is Cognitive Dissonance contributing to you scum reading fitz? If so, why is it scummy? Based on the content - "mini-modding" the game -, why would this be AI? There's nothing from stopping someone from "mini-modding" the game, regardless of their alignment.

Lastly I’d like you to look at 152 – that’s the kind of postshot I expect for scum trying to undermine a Town player as opposed to someone looking for scum. I’d expect Town-Having to not just snark about the discontinuity between RR’s stated scum reads and actual vote. But in his 265 catchup there is not a single remark about it.

I'm missing something. Why is the lack of 152's mention in 265 scummy?

[AnonymousGhost]

Will read the new posts tomorrow.

@Mod - It's been over three days since Shadpearl posted in this thread.

[AnonymousGhost]

I have to go back over their reads.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

Spoiler: Fitz' Snipped Comments in Order

All the back up mod talk on page 2 has me thinking at least one of the “helpful” posters [RR, AG, A21] is scum trying to look good.

AG (their slot at least) I think is most likely town. The worst thing I could say towards them was that they we getting in the mod’s business to much. Play the game…don’t manage it. Otherwise agree with a lot.

Based on how you organized your post, I thought that the second comment had been typed earlier than the first one - since that was the order you had the comments in your post. After I went back to 265, I found that that wasn't true and correctly ordered them for my sake.

What Town motivation do you see for Having to openly state that Mini-Modding is negative behavior and not soon afterwards doing the that exact same behavior himself?

Countering this with: town can't act anti-town?

I took a look at Fitz' scum pool and found that there isn't dissonance. First states this "[RR, AG, A21]" and then says this "Russian Roulette and Quick Maker are both suspect to me."

What's your opinion on this?

Thus I don’t see any realistic Town motivation in 152. But I do see a scum motivation – undermining the credibility of RR (which he continues to use as I’ve pointed out).

Has Russian's flip affect your read on Fitz? If he's town, then this lack of a followup can be explained by the fact that RR got killed and thus Fitz' scum pool is reduced to QM.

[AnonymousGhost]

I'm kind of curious to see where the wagon goes. Nothing interesting is happening.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I'm not opposed to a shad lynch, but

I'm a lot more convinced quick maker is scum

, and really don't want to lynch a lurker after enduring a policy lynch.

[AnonymousGhost]

I think I understand the question?

ISO'ing your posts for your case on Alchemist.

All the way back on page 7, here's your case - and I'm assuming it hasn't changed?

You could call my read on Korina "null-scum". I still think he's gut scummy but I have more clear reasons to look elsewhere – Alchemist, for example. I don't think he's contributed to the game at all in a way that I find more likely to come from scum than town. He talked about hoping the game picks up and asking if the previous votes were still counted, but there hasn't been any follow-through on either of those things. As compared to other people's lack of reads, his lack of scumreads also seems "lazier" – as if without any effort to look, not as if having looked and not found anything.

His posts since that point have improved, so yeah. Alchemist's not in my lynch pool/not a scum read. Has the D2 content not changed your read since then?

Page 18. I'm not sure I fully understand where the scumreads on Quick Maker are coming from. I've seen "being slow to form reads" as a reason, but from what I understand that's simply the way that BTD6 plays the game. I recall this being apparent day one with Quick giving reads always with the qualifier that Maker didn't agree with them.

Really? No comments on how Page 18 may have affect your reads on on the people involved (QM, fitz, Flub, NM).

[AnonymousGhost]

1 – Improved in what sense? Could you be a bit more specific here?

Improved, in that, none of your points hold any more weight.

Spoiler: Alchemist D2 posts that I think are contributing

VOTE: Quick Maker

Would vote Alchemist as well for rip R.R.

You've never explained your case on QM.

VOTE: Quick Maker

And you've never explained anything at all. Start talking.

VOTE: Not Mafia

22 posts.

First post confirms. zzzzzz

Post 22 is what appears to be an OMGUS RVS vote on Russian Roulette. zzzzzzzz

Post 34…agrees with RR that a back up mod would be helpful. zzzzzzz

Post 36…agrees with AG that someone could contact a listmod to get a b/u mod. smh….zzzzzzzzzz

Post 38 is alchemist stating they contacted a list mod about a back up mod. smh….so helpful and proactive.

Post 50 seems like a useless question to ask. 1) votes made before the day opens should obviously not be counted. 2) wait till the first votecount and see what happens.

Post 77…I don’t have a problem with this post. In fact…it’s along the same lines of thought I had iirc (at least after closer look at COA). Appears as though Alc is tr’ing both Korina and COA. ok.

Post 112…explains to RR the question to the mod about votes counting or not. meh.

Post 125…gives a critique of A50’s scum hunting process. I agree with their critique.

Post 128…more A50 hunting chat. zzzzzz

Post 181…votes Shad for scummiest thing in this game so far. (i.e. soft defense of Alc.)

Post 182…agrees with A50 on a COA town tell (timestamps).

Post 224…elaborates on Shad vote and says they are willing to join Korina wagon later in the day.

Post 225 questions RR about the Klick replace out and if it’s AI. meh…ok…

Post 227…puts a 3rd vote on Korina.

Post 245…discusses their earlier vote on Shad as well as current Korina vote. zzzzz

Post 248…self hammer chat with Korina. ok…

Post 269…good question to RR about Korina wagon.

Post 303…cautions A50 about tr’ing RR (Mathdino).

Post 308..gives wagon count. zzzzzzzz

Post 360…likes A50s analysis but warns against using NKA to clear anyone.

Post 373..questions N_M and I on our QM votes. ok…. And votes N_M…meh

I do not think I would vote Alchemist after all. At least not atm. His posts either seem a bit meh or something I agree with. Nothing terribly bad though.

What are your reads atm Alchemist? Any town reads you are confident in?
Are you voting N_M for the same reasons QM essentially did yesterday? I.e. policy? Have you played with N_M before?

Slight town read atm.

I'm feeling Town on A50, and I haven't seen any reason to overturn my Athena Townread. Shadpearl started seeming Townier after I unvoted but it's not as solid.

N_M is policy. I'd rather not carry it to a lynch like we did Korina, I just want N_M to actually explain things. I have played with him once or twice before but I don't remember him just making naked votes and not saying in between.

My notes on rereading the game today]Post 97 - seems odd for Bella to have TR on Flubber after 1 post.

115 - don't like Klick's vote on RR here. Seems to criticize Dino for not doing exactly what their post was doing.

127 - had early TR on CoA. Why did they interact with several people then naked vote me without interaction?

135 - why does A50 think NM had the best reaction?

138 - not the first post it is mentioned but I didn't take much notice before, but why is flubber a TR for A50?

140 - regardless of flubber's alignment, I doubt he'd lie about A50's meta so I'm inclined to take flubber's word about A50 here.

149 - every post from Bellaphant has been lackluster. But it seems familiar for some reason. I may have played with then before.

171 - that's an explanation for my vote that's simple enough that it could have been stated at the time of the vote.

177 - fair point regarding CoA. I've never seen scum care about time stamps like that.

182 - me from ~2 weeks ago agrees with 177 as well lol

187 + 188 - dat beetlejuice. That NM responded with a naked vote on QM has me very concerned now. Even regarding context it was out of nowhere.

206 - CoA confirms that Bella's quiet style is typical for her.

229 - other people wanting a policy lynch makes you not want it anymore?

260 - gonna need reasons on that NM towntell

261- I kinda like the last paragraph in 261

265 - disagree that players voted by NM deserved it

274 - A50 blind sheeping isn't a good sign. I was more sus of Dino at the time but knowing Dino was Town I'd say it looks worse for A50 here, and if A50 is scum it would point to AG being Town

290 - I mean, I've seen Town say it and it often holds up as true. But I do agree Korina was a special case.

301 - terrible. Blindly sheeping someone to vote someone you don't SR just to vote someone you're going to vote anyway the next day isn't productive.

313 + 314 - Obviously it was Double Jeopardy.

348 - Following from his End of Day posts, this seems like a natural start for A50's D2.

363, 366, 367 - where are these votes coming from?

374 - I had said Fitz didn't explain his case in more detail like he said he would. "More detail" apparently means "poe/gut"

375 - ok nevermind that is more detailed

379 - why? There's a concerning dynamic forming between Fitz and NM.

390 - He's right you know.

392 - I like AG actually trying to figure out a way to read NM. It's of a more probing mindset that is likely to come from Town, but I wouldn't put it past them to have planned such an interaction in the scum PT during the Night if they are partners.

395 - NM starts to play ball. This didn't start until after he made some D2 posts so it was either prompted by in-thread posts rather than PT post or he was waiting for a sign from partner AG to start changing. Occam's Razor implies it's more likely to be the former reason. I think the former case also indicates NM more likely to be Town as he's changing of his own will and not because teammates, regardless of who they may be, were screaming at him to change.

I think Fitz is the one I want to vote most right now. I think NM is Town but Fitz's dynamic with him and QM is giving me scumvibes.

VOTE: Havingfitz

Could maybe do the Klick/Vij slot but I'd rather see what a new player there has to say. It's not as strong a feeling there.

I still don't know about Bella and Flubber.

@Alchemist – My question to you is … why did you think Shad was buddying up to you? Generally buddying goes towards a player who is influential and generally Town read in general that scum don’t want coming at them. Did you see yourself in that sort of position Day 1?

I've had several games in the past where scum tried to buddy me and it's one of those things that I'm extra paranoid about. I definitely don't think I was in a strong Town position at the time, in fact I think I should have been null to most if not all players at the time. In my opinion the case against me was weak enough that it could have been defended against, but nobody should have had a reason to defend me if they didn't know my alignment and scum could have taken the opportunity to defend a Townie to try earning Towncred and making me more willing to side with them later on. Shad's looked Townier since so I don't think that's what he was doing, I think he's just one of those players who will defend another player if he doesn't think the argument is valid.

My notes on rereading the game today]Post 97 - seems odd for Bella to have TR on Flubber after 1 post.

115 - don't like Klick's vote on RR here. Seems to criticize Dino for not doing exactly what their post was doing.

127 - had early TR on CoA. Why did they interact with several people then naked vote me without interaction?

135 - why does A50 think NM had the best reaction?

138 - not the first post it is mentioned but I didn't take much notice before, but why is flubber a TR for A50?

140 - regardless of flubber's alignment, I doubt he'd lie about A50's meta so I'm inclined to take flubber's word about A50 here.

149 - every post from Bellaphant has been lackluster. But it seems familiar for some reason. I may have played with then before.

171 - that's an explanation for my vote that's simple enough that it could have been stated at the time of the vote.

177 - fair point regarding CoA. I've never seen scum care about time stamps like that.

182 - me from ~2 weeks ago agrees with 177 as well lol

187 + 188 - dat beetlejuice. That NM responded with a naked vote on QM has me very concerned now. Even regarding context it was out of nowhere.

206 - CoA confirms that Bella's quiet style is typical for her.

229 - other people wanting a policy lynch makes you not want it anymore?

260 - gonna need reasons on that NM towntell

261- I kinda like the last paragraph in 261

265 - disagree that players voted by NM deserved it

274 - A50 blind sheeping isn't a good sign. I was more sus of Dino at the time but knowing Dino was Town I'd say it looks worse for A50 here, and if A50 is scum it would point to AG being Town

290 - I mean, I've seen Town say it and it often holds up as true. But I do agree Korina was a special case.

301 - terrible. Blindly sheeping someone to vote someone you don't SR just to vote someone you're going to vote anyway the next day isn't productive.

313 + 314 - Obviously it was Double Jeopardy.

348 - Following from his End of Day posts, this seems like a natural start for A50's D2.

363, 366, 367 - where are these votes coming from?

374 - I had said Fitz didn't explain his case in more detail like he said he would. "More detail" apparently means "poe/gut"

375 - ok nevermind that is more detailed

379 - why? There's a concerning dynamic forming between Fitz and NM.

390 - He's right you know.

392 - I like AG actually trying to figure out a way to read NM. It's of a more probing mindset that is likely to come from Town, but I wouldn't put it past them to have planned such an interaction in the scum PT during the Night if they are partners.

395 - NM starts to play ball. This didn't start until after he made some D2 posts so it was either prompted by in-thread posts rather than PT post or he was waiting for a sign from partner AG to start changing. Occam's Razor implies it's more likely to be the former reason. I think the former case also indicates NM more likely to be Town as he's changing of his own will and not because teammates, regardless of who they may be, were screaming at him to change.

I think Fitz is the one I want to vote most right now. I think NM is Town but Fitz's dynamic with him and QM is giving me scumvibes.

VOTE: Havingfitz

Could maybe do the Klick/Vij slot but I'd rather see what a new player there has to say. It's not as strong a feeling there.

I still don't know about Bella and Flubber.

Alchemist…if there was anything in your spoiler that you want addressed by me let me know. I only saw my name mentioned a few times and if any other post #s allude to me I won’t know without going to every (unlinked) post mentioned which I’m not going to.

So why am I scum? I really don’t see anything other than the vague mention of a “concerning dynamic” between me and N_M and me and QM. I have been town reading N_M (which you have come to think as well) and I have suspected/voted QM.

So what is concerning?

Your QM vote felt opportunistic when you said you had a detailed case then later said it was just gut. If felt like you wanted to keel scumreading the slot even though you couldn't really justify it like you said you could. And your interaction with NM feels like you're trying to side with him for some ulterior motive. You hard Townread him and voted with him without justification for the former and little for the latter. And you can point out that I'm Townreading NM too, but the fact of the matter is that I was able to justify it. You were asked to justify a scumread you said you could and then fumbled on the response when actually called out.

Here's your case against Alchemist:

Alchemist, for example. I don't think he's contributed to the game at all in a way that I find more likely to come from scum than town. He talked about hoping the game picks up and asking if the previous votes were still counted, but there hasn't been any follow-through on either of those things. As compared to other people's lack of reads, his lack of scumreads also seems "lazier" – as if without any effort to look, not as if having looked and not found anything.

IMO Alchemist is contributing to the game state.

2 – No, not particularly. Again, should it have? I'm obviously not seeing whatever it is you're seeing here, and I feel like I'm going crazy looking at the nightkill and being the only one to apparently not think that it clears Alchemist... somehow.

Apparently, someone didn't notice this....

Yes, I did read the posts made so far.

And I disagree with the WIFOM argument you've used to write off both myself and Alchemist as Town. You're ignoring the day play on a hunch of what you think inspired the night play.

[AnonymousGhost]

My opinion – I have no idea where you are going with Cognitive Dissonance as it relates to his scum pool. That’s related to his Mini Modding, at least in my mind. If I’m not parsing where you are going please clarify.

And of course Town can act Anti-Town. Tons of players on site do (shitposting being far to prevalent). That said I see a difference between someone who Mini-Mods as part of their player and someone who goes out of his way to dissuade others from doing it before actively taking part himself. If you want to not read it as scum motivated behavior that is certainly your choice.

Athena said my thoughts on the matter of Mini-Modding quite nicely:

That's also assuming that he thinks the "mini-modding" can actually even get him towncred in the first place.

So no, the dissonance of Fitz' stance on my mini-modding and his mini-modding doesn't have scum motive.

Umm … the lack of followup was implicitly for when RR was actually alive. It would be stupid to suggest Fitz continue to scum read a green flip.

Can't remember if there was a lack of a follow up when RR was alive. I need to go check.

[AnonymousGhost]

@A50

- Do you always compromise on your scum reads like this? I'm too busy ATM to check to see if this is something that you do regardless of alignment.

[AnonymousGhost]

However, someone give me an opening to lynch you/MoI and I will happily do either over QM.

This is a dumb statement. Why are you waiting for others to "give you an opening"? VOTE: Almost50

What exactly are you seeing here?

Saw you as giving up on your scum read for someone who was null; seemed opportunistic. With the revote on QM, I can see that that's not true.

Hey AG, think you can get a shad lynch through before deadline?

Read analysis (450). In a nutshell, his 409 is what's makes me think that MoI and Shad aren't scum partners. My only complaints include my dislike that he's sheeping the "loudest" looking person in the room and this comment:

We can always lynch him later for being a pain

[AnonymousGhost]

Shad's Fitz vote after his MoI interactions is really bad and I'm starting to get the feeling that everyone is okay with lynching

them

, yet the votes aren't following

Is 'them' referring to Fitz, Shad, or MoI? I can't tell.

[AnonymousGhost]

Then make a wagon of your own that isn't a "vanity" wagon.

[AnonymousGhost]

Let's recap:

- You're not scum reading QM.
- Of the six players left, QM is strictly in the middle. [Flub, Pine, QM, Alc, Ghost, and then MoI]
- "Not a fan of the QM wagon either, and would still rather MoI/AG over them"
- But you sheep a wagon - QM's -, rather than creating a wagon on the people who you aren't TR'ing as much as QM.

So yeah, this makes perfect sense.

/sarcasm/

[AnonymousGhost]

@Not_Mafia

- Yes or No? Is your vote on A50 a reaction to my push on him?

[AnonymousGhost]

What reactions/posts are showing people's willingness to vote Shad?

[AnonymousGhost]

The only two confident SRs I have are on MoI/You.

Then why aren't you voting for either scum read/why are you voting for someone who's not a scum read?

Are you afraid that D2 is going to result in a No Lynch and that's why you're sheeping onto QM's wagon?

[AnonymousGhost]

Then make a wagon of your own that isn't a "vanity" wagon.

/after having googled 'vanity wagon mafiascum'

Well, I feel like a dumb ass.

Thought that vanity wagon was another way to say 'vote sitting'.

[AnonymousGhost]

:p

Or I could be an actual dumb ass who should look up terms that I'm not 100% certain on. Check out Newbie: Literally Mafia where I didn't know what the hell "lynch bait" meant.

UNVOTE:

Last post for the day since I completely forgot the Geriatric mechanic and have gone over my post limit for today.

[AnonymousGhost]

Shad's Fitz vote after his MoI interactions is really bad and I'm starting to get the feeling that everyone is okay with lynching

them

, yet the votes aren't following

Is 'them' referring to Fitz, Shad, or MoI? I can't tell.

shad

IIRC Pine is the only one (?) who's read on Shad has wavered between newb scum/newb town.

[AnonymousGhost]

Will reevaluate my read on Flubber with Quick Maker's comment in mind.

[AnonymousGhost]

Aside from what has been brought up, one of Flubber's posts feels like a soft defense against me railing on A50's dismissal of day play which factored into his previous reads on Alchemist and I.

It's only when I asked about Flub's own NKA that he offers his own suggestion. Given that behavior "incident" around A50 combo'd with the recent pressure push on A50, his semi vote sitting behavior on QM which adjusted only after Pine and I voted for him is suspicious.

I need a computer for better motivational analysis of this.

[AnonymousGhost]

Aside from what has been brought up, one of Flubber's posts feels like a soft defense against me railing on A50's dismissal of day play which factored into his previous reads on Alchemist and I

.

443 - Wow. My memory sucks.

since scum can basically kill anyone without consequence and send town into the WIFOM rabbit hole.

This is exactly why you consider a nk's reads with some sort of weight.

[AnonymousGhost]

I see AG is more or less defending us at this point so this has made me vies AG as a strong TR.

This is a weak reason to plop me as a strong TR. Defending someone is NAI since town and scum can and will do it.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Mod - Vote count is incorrect. Pine is voting for Fluubernuget in 554.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Deadline's is today and this is the only wagon with good reasons.

[AnonymousGhost]

Yes, I encountered a similar problem. I can't recall if it was 3 to 4 days ago, however.

[AnonymousGhost]

@HavingFitz

Have your reasons to scum read QM changed or are they still the same - whatever they were?

[AnonymousGhost]

@Pine

What led to you to suspect HavingFitz from yesterday?

The only thing I found was this:

#265-Finally a substantive Fitz post. Reading...shit. I was really hoping for a SR on Fitz, as I have a dearth of them, but this comes across as solidly Townish thinking. Well, Townhunting is a legit strategy too.

What have you found since making 554 that made you plop a vote on him? Post numbers would be appreciated.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Pine

And what posts have pinged on your radar and why? I want to take a look at them myself.

[AnonymousGhost]

@MoI - How is this obv-scum?

This is annoying. How town of you to not know there are three scum. We do need to lynch all three...yes? smh.....

All it definitively shows is that Fitz is not paying attention.

This conclusion that you're drawing is bad. Especially considering the first post...

Sample Role PM's:

Vanilla Townie Role PM wrote:
Welcome to Open 715! You are a Vanilla Townie!

Win condition: You win when only one Mafia Goon is left.

Scum Goon Role PM wrote:
Welcome to Open 715! You are a Mafia Goon, along with your partners, [Player Name] & [Player Name]!

Win condition: You win when all members of the town have been eliminated or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

PEdit:

Never mind.

Now you're scum reading a difference in play style.

[AnonymousGhost]

Not this WIFOM junk again...

@A50 - what do you think of MoI's argument against Fitz' "mini-modding" and cognitive dissonance? Does the implication of the role PM strengthen or weaken MoI's original case in your mind? Has any of MoI's day play pinged you, or should I just assume that you're using night play?

What's your analysis of Not_Mafia eating the NK? You slotted him as town, even after he voted for you.

[AnonymousGhost]

VOTE: Alchemist121

[AnonymousGhost]

@MoI

- How many people of the player list have you actually played with?

If you haven't played with the following people - Quick Maker (Hydra of LicketyQuickety & BTD6_maker) / Cult / Anon / Alchemist / Shad -, then I question the validity of your argument for writing off some combination of scum within these players because of that fact.

While you're at it explain why the best suspects are Cult, Pine, and Quick Maker if Fitz is Town and how you arrived at that conclusion, since these were the last things you said about all three of these players.

Pine – I’m wiling to talk this further with you. The one thing I am fairly certain of is that Pine and Having scum partners. 565 is not the makings of any sort of bus.

I'd like clarification on this . At first, I thought that it was a typo and that you had meant to type "Pine and Having

are not

scum partners." because of how you cleared them due to 565 apparently not having the markings of a bus. Which at the time, I thought implied that all three of them [Pine, Having, and Flub] were not a possible scum team together.

Combine this with how you've formed associations between A50 and Fitz as scum buddies because they've barely interacted, I was left with the impression that Pine was a not a scum read of yours.

Cult is Town. 170 and 171 for example more or less echo my exact thoughts at that stage. I’d like more from today. Hopefully they haven’t flaked.

Quickmaker I frankly don’t see why so much in the way of scum-reads are going that direction. There is plenty to read and digest and I’ve yet to see anyone articulate a case that tracks for me. Also 390 is spot on. I don’t agree with the NotMafia scum read (I’ve learned long ago about him) but agree that there is no reason to Town read that slot as Town.

[AnonymousGhost]

@MoI

Phone posting and avoiding a prod.

Explain why Fitz' mistake on the town win con is a scum slip for him, but coming from Pine it isn't a scum slip. The two of them said very similar things on the same page. Go and check if you don't believe me.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

[AnonymousGhost]

Alchemist as partner? Not sure of third. Need to drill down on some of the nulls and weak reads.

This

is annoying. How town of you to not know there are three scum. We do need to lynch all three...yes? smh.....

[AnonymousGhost]

All three of myself, Almost and Pine agree he scum-slipped but you made a rather weak attempt to say it was a playstyle difference. Are all of us scum since we all come to the same conclusion

I'll quote where you're scum reading a difference in play style in my next post. Phone posting isn't ideal for it.

Not quite.

Here's my read's list.

[Fitz, Quick Maker]
[Shad, Pine]
[A50, Athena/Replacement] - Null
[MoI, Alchemist]

[AnonymousGhost]

Note not a hair of Town questioning “hmm why would MOI say that let me check the setup”? Nope it is something he can pounce on to defend himself. Scum play through and through.

[AnonymousGhost]

Says the guy who gave MoI crap about scum reading him without placing down a vote.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Fitz

You seem to be forgetting that I was also defending QM's wagon on D2 (?).

[AnonymousGhost]

So, it's been 3ish days since Fitz was put at L-1 by Athena.

[AnonymousGhost]

@A50 - Finally got around to reskimming your ISO for the reason you're not voting for Fitz and I couldn't find it.

[AnonymousGhost]

- The reasons for this wagon are still BS.
- Conf bias says this Fitz' unwillingness to hammer is town indicative.
- Athena's vote is opportunistic and her opinions regarding me and Fitz run parallel to almost everyone else's; following a behavioral pattern after something BIG has happened is more scum indicative to me.
- I expect Shad will sheep this wagon to L-0 when or if they get back.

VOTE: CultofAthena

[AnonymousGhost]

You apparently skipped over my reads list when I provided it earlier.

[AnonymousGhost]

Legit. I don't know why I'm bothering when you're in death tunnel mode.

- This pinged on my radar because it rang out opportunistic. Scum casing.
- Come today you've zeroed the focus to exclusively on HavingFitz and myself. Scum shutting down and taking control of the conversation.
- So far, almost everyone else has agreed with the Having lynch - the exceptions being QM, Fitz, myself, and Shad. This has given you the freedom to push your death tunnel and the pre-flip associations that you want to see to ensure a town loss.

[AnonymousGhost]

That someone being Shad, or Shad's replacement.

[AnonymousGhost]

I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Fitz is a TR of mine, this wagon sucks, and you're not getting my vote.

[AnonymousGhost]

Well, that's not suspicious at all.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Grey

Explain why QM is in your lynch pool.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Almost50

Your comfort is the least of my concern.

Explain your suspicion on Pine and if it's influenced by what Grey has said against him (Pine).

[AnonymousGhost]

@Alchemist

Bulletpoint why you jumped onto the Fitz bandwagon, including which of MoI's points you thought had merit.

[AnonymousGhost]

I think it's two in {Shad/Grey, Anon, Alchemist}

@Pine - Explain why you're town reading, or not scum reading, everyone else since your scum reads are the exact same thing from yesterday.

[AnonymousGhost]

Without ISO'ing either of them and based off of memory alone, Alchemist is my first preference between the two of them. Pine is lynchbait if I consider his D4 posts alone. Taking into account his attitude and some posts he made on D3 - phone posting is not ideal for quoting - and he fits the same point I have against Athena.

Later, I am going to ISO them both + QM to see if your points hold weight.

[AnonymousGhost]

I think Fitz is the one I want to vote most right now. I think NM is Town but Fitz's dynamic with him and QM is giving me scumvibes.

@Alchemist - Checked your ISO and found this.

At the time, what about Fitz's interactions with QM gave you scum vibes? I looked over your notes, but you didn't mention QM anywhere in relation to Fitz and instead focused on Fitz's interactions with NM.

Skim Edit

: NVM. Found your reasoning for the interaction between QM & Fitz in 541.

What is your impression of QM now? You stopped mentioning him as the Fitz wagon gained traction on D3 and you've never mentioned him in relation to Fitz since then.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Athena - Explain this: "Yesterday trying to reconcile my scumread on both of them together got confusing - I see now why."

I don't understand what you're saying here.

You've tunneled on Alchemist for almost the entire game thus far, show me your case against him. And no, you can't just have your D1 case alone. Show me your progression on him from D2 and D3 and maybe how D4 his posts thus far - if any - could be contributing to your suspicion on him.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Grey - I didn't like A50's WIFOM business and writing off multiple people across multiple days as town or scum based on supposed night play motivation theories alone - still don't - but that's a shitty reason to scum read him i.e scum reading a difference in play style.

So, I'll throw that out the window. PoE removes him from my lynch pool now that I think about it.

I've never heard the phrase "it's okay to divide the middle."; can you give me an example of what this means?

Long story short, I'll discuss with A50.

Pedit: @Athena - I was under the impression that Alchemist was opportunistically jumping on the Fitz wagon D3 and stupidly didn't check what MoI had said. That's where I screwed up.

Anyway, my big beef with your scum read on Alchemist is that I'm skeptical that your exact D1 case holds true even though it's already on D4. Give me post #s, quotes, or paraphrasing so I can see for myself.

[AnonymousGhost]

@A50 - Bulletpoint why you suspect Pine. No WIFOM junk allowed.

[AnonymousGhost]

Got it.

[AnonymousGhost]

Too much WIFOM. Screw that rabbit hole.

I was wrong about Alchemist's stance on Fitz' wagon - started on D2, not sheeping MoI's push like I first thought. Athena's soft death tunnel on Alchemist is shitty play style, but combined with her jump back onto it today it seems too convenient now that Alchemist is under the gun.

An interaction between Alchemist and Pine yesterday stood out to me. It's on page 30 and aligns with what A50 brought up about how Pine has had Alchemist in his scum pool but found better suspects. Pine had an opportunity to dig into his scum read, but shut it down and doesn't follow through. This pattern repeats itself when Pine parrots virtually everything MoI says in regards to QM's lack of a vote, Grey's alignment, and the scum team. The first is an example of failing to follow through as Pine tosses out his sheep of MoI's stance on QM as quickly as it came when he latches onto MoI's scum team.

Intent to vote Pine.

@A50 - Uh. No. Stop being cagey. Town getting cagey with information is never a good approach. Share your scum reads - besides, presumably Pine.

@Athena - Fine. I'll take another look at your points. I think it's more nuanced than that - clearly he

did

scum read Fitz before MoI's push (I thought he was just sheeping an easy wagon and missed his D2 push completely). However, I do think his D3 behavior regarding sheeping MoI does run parallel to what I have against Pine and that's where I do believe your point against him is valid. Blanketing his entire play across the game as doing nothing is invalid however as there is evidence to the contrary.

[AnonymousGhost]

I understand. Don't like it, but I understand.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Alchemist

As of now, unsure. Before the Fitz flip I thought QM was Town because his wagon sprang up and I never saw anyone on that wagon give an actual reason for the wagon, leading me to believe scum were involved with it.

ISO'd the Mod. Here's what I found - Listing the ones where the QM either gained or lost someone:

Day One:

Quick Maker (1):

Korina

Quick Maker (3):

Korina

,

Not_Mafia

,

havingfitz

Quick Maker (1):

havingfitz

Day Two:

Quick Maker (2):

Flubbernugget

,

Not_Mafia

Quick Maker (3):

Flubbernugget

,

Not_Mafia

,

havingfitz

Quick Maker (3):

havingfitz

, Almost50,

Flubbernugget

Quick Maker (1): Almost50

Day Three:

Quick Maker (1):

havingfitz

This is the quick skim ISO of all the living players who showed support for a QM wagon based off of memory alone - which, I think, would currently include A50, Pine, and Grey:

@N_M: Quick isn't an option today, my friend.

I still have 6 suspects so still many possibilities, but I've marked Flubber and Quick as unlikely scum (individual slots.. each is unlikely scum) on D1

Quick Maker - Neutral

QM looks Town to me.

QM must be Town here, regardless of Havingfitz flip.

Scum!QM would not want to tie themselves to Scum!fitz when the later is the most likely (and appears to be the ONLY viable) lynch today.
Scum!QM would not be trying that hard to defend Town!fitz, and especially so when fitz is trying to lynch them.

Unsure as to why Quick would not vote me given we have less than a week left before deadline. There are no other viable non-Having wagons and Quick has idled their vote all day.

Hmmm ....

Yup

So far I want to lynch Alchemist 121, Quick Maker, and Bellephant.

Kinda what I expected. My final prognostication is Having / Grey / Anon. Because scum Quick would have already hammered Town Having long ago if he was scum with Pine and Alchemist21.

Almost feel free to question Grey or just hammer scum Having.

^This

Quick Maker: This hydra has been shit all game. The Korina read in 76 was vulture circling the weak if I've ever seen it, and the Not_Mafia policy case in 284 was downright awful. 407 was a bad vote too, and then vote 608 felt contrived and vapid. It's like, QM is always certain to provide lots of text for their shitty vote, but it still remains a shitty vote. I'll break down the Flubbernugget vote to show what I mean.

He starts out by saying Flubbernugget makes sure his reads progress logically as scum. While that's a statement, what's the inverse? His reads proceed illogically as town? I think not. Similarly he says Flubber rarely changes his reads as scum, but what? He does as town? I think not. It's just shoddy reasoning that doesn't actually say anything. Finally he says Flubber's reads are "out of touch with the town" which on day 2 isn't a very meaningful statement either. It's just a lazy case that doesn't mean jack shit, lots of sound and fury, but no significance to the words. It's like he typed up a long post to justify the vote because he knew it would be come back to, but nothing in the post means crap. Extremely tempted to vote here.

Okay, Alch, Anon, and Quick, then?

Conclusions: A50 shows a thought progression on QM that demonstrates a willingness to game solve and reevaluate, Grey's argument shows a nuance of thought that also shows a willingness to game solve, but Pine does a 180 on his QM town read from yesterday that's most likely based on PoE from today? The latter is hard to tell because he hasn't shown his thought process like the other two and continues his pattern of piggy backing onto a louder player's arguments - i.e. Grey - that he started at the end of D3 - i.e. MoI.

@QM - Are there any other living players who've shown support for your lynch that I'm missing?

[AnonymousGhost]

(I refuse to believe the scumteam approaches that level of organization in operation lurkaderp)

Why is this not a possibility?

I think I understand the gambit you kinda proposed. So, it's basically musical lynch? Plop two votes down a player and then wait to see who makes noise - emphasis on the noise - since that's the signal for quick hammer time. If a player is making noise, then it could be a signal for their scum buddies saying 'Hey! I'm online! Let's win!'.

Got it.

In regards to QM, I did question them - multiple times - about their reads progression on myself and various players, specifically the NM scum read where they tried to push a policy lynch on NM. Their willingness to reevaluate their read on me, especially after I called them out for it - multiple times in fact, and their reasoning for pushing a PL on NM - didn't want to take an unreadable player to LyLo, appeared to come from town. The second point seemed to have lots of town motive behind it, especially when you consider the D1 green wagon on Korina.

I think someone - maybe it was Flubber? - mentioned how they didn't want another policy lynch after D1. Only Alchemist joined the NM wagon - I think? -, so it can assumed that the rest of the town didn't want to endure another policy lynch. I previously noted that scum probably wouldn't be willing to push another policy lynch on someone else after what had happened on D1.

My lynch pool is: Pine, Athena, and Alchemist.

@A50 - Where is Athena in your reads list?

[AnonymousGhost]

You keep saying there's "evidence to the contrary", but I don't believe I've seen you point any of it out.

His D2 push on Fitz. My point is that he

started

it before MoI's big push (on D3) and that's the evidence to the contrary that he sheeped a supposed easy wagon i.e. Fitz's wagon driven by MoI.

Spoiler: My notes on rereading the game today

Post 97 - seems odd for Bella to have TR on Flubber after 1 post.

115 - don't like Klick's vote on RR here. Seems to criticize Dino for not doing exactly what their post was doing.

127 - had early TR on CoA. Why did they interact with several people then naked vote me without interaction?

135 - why does A50 think NM had the best reaction?

138 - not the first post it is mentioned but I didn't take much notice before, but why is flubber a TR for A50?

140 - regardless of flubber's alignment, I doubt he'd lie about A50's meta so I'm inclined to take flubber's word about A50 here.

149 - every post from Bellaphant has been lackluster. But it seems familiar for some reason. I may have played with then before.

171 - that's an explanation for my vote that's simple enough that it could have been stated at the time of the vote.

177 - fair point regarding CoA. I've never seen scum care about time stamps like that.

182 - me from ~2 weeks ago agrees with 177 as well lol

187 + 188 - dat beetlejuice. That NM responded with a naked vote on QM has me very concerned now. Even regarding context it was out of nowhere.

206 - CoA confirms that Bella's quiet style is typical for her.

229 - other people wanting a policy lynch makes you not want it anymore?

260 - gonna need reasons on that NM towntell

261- I kinda like the last paragraph in 261

265 - disagree that players voted by NM deserved it

274 - A50 blind sheeping isn't a good sign. I was more sus of Dino at the time but knowing Dino was Town I'd say it looks worse for A50 here, and if A50 is scum it would point to AG being Town

290 - I mean, I've seen Town say it and it often holds up as true. But I do agree Korina was a special case.

301 - terrible. Blindly sheeping someone to vote someone you don't SR just to vote someone you're going to vote anyway the next day isn't productive.

313 + 314 - Obviously it was Double Jeopardy.

348 - Following from his End of Day posts, this seems like a natural start for A50's D2.

363, 366, 367 - where are these votes coming from?

374 - I had said Fitz didn't explain his case in more detail like he said he would. "More detail" apparently means "poe/gut"

375 - ok nevermind that is more detailed

379 - why? There's a concerning dynamic forming between Fitz and NM.

390 - He's right you know.

392 - I like AG actually trying to figure out a way to read NM. It's of a more probing mindset that is likely to come from Town, but I wouldn't put it past them to have planned such an interaction in the scum PT during the Night if they are partners.

395 - NM starts to play ball. This didn't start until after he made some D2 posts so it was either prompted by in-thread posts rather than PT post or he was waiting for a sign from partner AG to start changing. Occam's Razor implies it's more likely to be the former reason. I think the former case also indicates NM more likely to be Town as he's changing of his own will and not because teammates, regardless of who they may be, were screaming at him to change.

I think Fitz is the one I want to vote most right now. I think NM is Town but Fitz's dynamic with him and QM is giving me scumvibes.

VOTE: Havingfitz

Could maybe do the Klick/Vij slot but I'd rather see what a new player there has to say. It's not as strong a feeling there.

I still don't know about Bella and Flubber.

I'll give you that it is shit, but you can't argue that he

didn't

do it. Look at the VC and then look at the order in which these two voted for the Fitz wagon.

havingfitz (2): Alchemist121, MagnaofIllusion

469 - Alchemist's vote on Fitz
476 - MoI's vote on Fitz

Pedit: @Alchemist & @A50 - Agreeing with Alchemist's point on Pine's appeasement and the VCA done by A50 and Grey and that Athena vote is scum indicative.

VOTE: Pine

Pine: Alchemist, Almost50, AnonymousGhost - L-1

[AnonymousGhost]

Absolute astounding game town! It was an absolute pleasure to play with all of you! Shoutout to MoI and MathDino who proved to be two exceptional challenges!

@Mod - I'm good. Feel free to release the scum PT~

[AnonymousGhost]

Uh....

We tried to coordinate - emphasis on the

tried

- but until that last page, I didn't want to lay down a vote until I knew that Athena was online.

[AnonymousGhost]

Recap:

Ghost: "No Alchemist."
Athena: "Yes Alchemist."
Ghost: "No Alchemist." - Secretly wondering why Athena's pushing like this.
Athena: "Yes Alchemist."
Athena: Votes

Ghost: Typing up a reply to Alchemist & A50, hits Preview, sees Athena's vote, PANICS, goes back to check Alchemist wagon

Grey: Unvotes

Ghost: Double check and triple checking Alchemist Bandwagon

Ghost: Types up Vote: Alchemist, hits Preview, sees Grey's Unvote, PANICS = 'OH SHIT ALCHEMIST'S THE SIGNAL!'
Ghost: Retypes everything, votes Pine, hopes that Athena is still online

[AnonymousGhost]

Or, you know, suspected she was.

[AnonymousGhost]

There was no better option. /shrug

I think A50 and I wanted to kill you, but Athena wanted you alive, so I shot NM because he was on the back burner in town's mind.

[AnonymousGhost]

Flubber's self hammer was probably pro-town. Korina's - yeah... not so much.

Pedit: @Alchemist - Yeah. Athena's got it. Haha~ Game's over and my memory still sucks.

[AnonymousGhost]

Facepalmed so hard on the timing of these posts.

My reaction...

[AnonymousGhost]

Also, did anyone

really

expect scum to replace out of this game?

I almost did.

Fitz town reading me changed my mind!

[AnonymousGhost]

Shout out to my scum buddies!

Go A TEAM!

[AnonymousGhost]

@Grey - Same to you! I hope to play with you again someday! It was very fun!

[AnonymousGhost]

Shout out to my scum buddies!

Go A TEAM!

Adding onto this:

Big props for both of you for putting up with me being an argumentative and possibly very annoying scum buddy! XD

I wanted as much distance as possible between us if a wagon - specifically my wagon - flipped.

[AnonymousGhost]

@Red - Who did you expect? I'm curious.

In hindsight, some of the things I did I was sure screamed scum i.e. that vote on Flubber.

[AnonymousGhost]

Here's the link to the Scum PT. All three of us have signed off on releasing it. It's not been made public yet, but here it is in advanced.

[AnonymousGhost]

I think the worst part of my play was getting locked on Having upon replacing in.

To be fair, you did nail me as scum after I white knight'd the shit out of Fitz.

At that point - the one were I made the shitty red herring attempt by comparing Fitz's slip with Pine's -, I probably said "screw it," and jumped in feet first with defending Fitz.

My primary aim, at that point, was distracting the town and allowing my buddies to sneak by undetected. Like I said in the scum PT, it wasn't my goal to get universally town read - all I had to settle on is having enough townies reading me as town (plus my buddies) in order to avoid eating a lynch. And it worked - sorta.

I really couldn't ignore Athena's pop onto the Fitz wagon since that's a scum indicator that I almost always use, but I was also afraid of eating a lynch and not having established enough distance between my buddies. So, laying down that final vote on D3 was killing two birds with one stone. :3

[AnonymousGhost]

@QM - To be fair, my scum game has had a steep learning curve. Claimed bomb my first scum game. Haha. That blew up in my face. Literally.

[AnonymousGhost]

Thanks Maker!