Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[northsidegal]

VOTE: guiltylion

he definitely chose scum here, obvious lynch.

[northsidegal]

a joke?

[northsidegal]

VOTE: Vote: Gamma Emerald

Saying "I have not the liberty of selecting anything about my alignment" instead of saying "I have not the liberty of selecting my alignment" suggests his alignment has two components - a side, and a set of people who share that alignment. A VT would be more likely to naturally construct the latter statement.

Doesn't really rule out a masonslip, but the quality of lynching someone who is mason/scum is significantly better than random lynching, so this is where my vote should go for now.

The more I look at this the more I feel like it's scum blatantly masonhunting hoping for refuge in audacity
VOTE: popsocftown

masonhunting in what way? why would he make that public in the main thread rather than just keep it to himself / share it in the scum pt?

[northsidegal]

If you identify the four players who have partners, you do instantly win this setup. Obviously identifying the players who cannot win if they are lynched is the cleaner less costly angle of scumhunting. But I'll take what I can get.

I don't see why my case is being characterized as a slip. Nothing about it is a slip. He said that he didn't get to choose anything about his role, and didn't get to choose anything else. If he's VT, he didn't get to choose that he is town, and he didn't get to choose his partners, and his partners is the empty set. It's totally valid to make a statement about an empty set. People are just more likely to comment on nonempty sets. If someone took me out on a date, and I said I didn't get to select a dessert, you would assume my date treated me to a specific dessert, but if I said we didn't have time for dessert you wouldn't complain my previous statement was invalid.

Unless you're all just saying this statement of probability is so obvious that he would preview edit it out which just seems like too scummy to be scum fallacy.

does this make sense to anyone else? i don't really see it as meaningful, honestly. nobody got to choose anything at all about their alignment, i sincerely doubt that a linguistic quirk in what gamma said is in any way alignment indicative.

Gamma Emerald's progression from 18 to 25 is terrible. I made no intervening posts to change his read. The only change is that BuJaber joined the wagon making it seem more viable and socially acceptable. BuJaber didn't even post a case that Gamma might have found compelling, he just asked "what is going on here".

what "progression" are you talking about? you make it seem as if he townread you at first but then changed his mind, but he didn't even mention you in 28. do you find it unbelievable that he actually just looked at your post more and realized something about it?

[northsidegal]

NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon

it can be a historic moment

we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business

oh wow, hadn't noticed. eh, i'll do it this time, just for comedy's sake.

VOTE: verydark

[northsidegal]

My read on Mathdino is changing, but he's got his own thing going on and I'm not going to speak of possibilities there before it's had a chance to play out and we can draw some conclusions.

what does this mean? no offense, but this reads as pretty "empty", like you're not actually saying anything at all.

[northsidegal]

i think i know what math is about to say.

[northsidegal]

Explain?

i just expected a "hypocrisy isn't a scumtell", remember you saying that before and it's stuck in my head i guess.

[northsidegal]

You're 100% right, it's very deliberately empty. I'm saying that Dino is "doing something" with the VD wagon etc, and I want to see what the outcome is without me interfering. He's at L-2 so I'm obviously not going to put him at L-1, nor am I going to try and derail the wagon before he gets the reaction he's after. I only said it because GL wanted to call into question whether my read on him had changed.

i've never really understood this "zero sum" view of attention or of focus when it comes to discussing reads, as if bringing something up while someone else has a wagon on them will necessarily be "derailing" it. i mean, do you have a read on math right now or do you not? you're kind of talking like you don't ("and we can draw some conclusions", "i want to see what the outcome is"), but if that's the case i don't see why you wouldn't just come out and say that. (i don't get why you wouldn't just come out and say your read whether you have one or not, but that's a different discussion).

[northsidegal]

ah, i get what you're saying now. it seemed like originally you were implying like you already had a read there.

[northsidegal]

18 and 25 are your posts.

he was referring to 28 and 35.

Scum don't have daytalk. As for keeping it to himself I don't think the motive I described allows that.

eh, i guess i see what you're saying now. i still think scum would be more likely to keep a mason tell to themselves rather than trying to use it to get townread through wifom like that, though.

[northsidegal]

i'm not actually convinced that there's a better place for my vote right now, honestly. verydark – since self-voting you have done almost no scumhunting at all, and the "please hammer me" reads as either an attempt at AtE or scum upset at getting wagoned for seemingly nothing. you're also playing fairly differently than to your last town game that just finished recently.

why did you self-vote? did you not realize that your wagon wasn't really a lynch wagon in the first place?

[northsidegal]

ah I actually vibe with this a lot

because you're totally right, I thought you saying "I trust your townreads more than your scumreads" was a cheeky way of saying something more akin to "I think you're scum"

UNVOTE:

i'm inclined to townread this – in the first place i think town has a slightly higher percentage chance of making reads based off of misinterpretations like that (if even just because scum spend more time going over their posts self-consciously), but even if that doesn't really apply to GL as he's pretty experienced as scum i would think that with pressure being put on mathdino from dark's vote and sando, GL would be more inclined to stay in with his push there than to back out of it.

[northsidegal]

i have quoted the only real game-relevant part of 139.

@verydark: You claim you did not know that self voting was a permissible action. And I believe you on this. I do not believe you completed four games and didn't learn that unvoting is a permissible action. Why didn't that follow after you realized the gravity of what you'd done?
At first i was willing, perhaps too willing, to accept that explanation. But it seems a bit off. It seems like he demands his behavior be characterized a certain way, yet refuses to even play the part, lest he be seen to be behaving like an actor.

[northsidegal]

@aster

, would prefer to extend deadlines

[northsidegal]

sando, what exactly is your read on mathdino right now? i'm reading some stuff that feels inconsistent but i don't think you've actually said what your read is there.

[northsidegal]

I'm off to GFs tonight, I will be back tomorrow, approx 24 hours from now.

VOTE: Kop

You can all see my view on Gamma and judge for yourself, I'm pretty sold on scum there atm. Kop has actively lurked simply to avoid prod, while posting in other games (for approx first 24 hours of this game, second approx 24 hours didn't post anywhere).

why are you voting a lurker over someone you say yourself that you're sold on being scum?

Can you talk to me about those? Because I'm not sure where they are coming from and I'd lean the other way.

i agree with sparkles here on sando and GL – could you describe where your reads there are coming from?

[northsidegal]

I'm not fully caught up, but this post did catch my eye. He has simply echoed everybody elses thoughts about Dark, and voted on it as it's a wagon that has momentum. It is the easiest wagon to join because it's getting very little resistance.

However, I do agree with your sentiments regarding the town block, but I won't go as far as suspecting them right now. I'd rather lynch outside of that town block, it'll all come down to process of elimination.

What did you like about Pops #139, what gave you town vibes? I read that post and I didn't see anything that would give me town vibes, or little one at that.

if you're not disagreeing with the reasons for verydark being scum this rings pretty hollow. if you think there are good reasons for the verydark wagon, what's scummy about agreeing with them? if you don't think so, why not?

(chainsaw, anyone?)

I have read through all of this, and feel thoroughly empty of opinions.

I'll read through it again when I'm a bit clearer in the head, but I agree that Mason-hunting and association-hunting should be avoided completely. Not sure how I feel about verydark lynch, I think I give a slight town lean. I'm liking Mathditto, but that's about the extent of what I got from that.

This feels fake and forced.

VOTE: Mylonninja

In what way? i think town is very decently more likely to make a post like that than scum – scum are forced to come up with false pushes eventually anyways, so i'd think scum would just start out by doing so and either come up with a false push or follow a push already happening. outside of a deliberate play for getting towncred, there's not a lot of benefit as scum to saying that you don't really have reads.

what about that is "forced"?

[northsidegal]

I agree with 253.
There should be plenty to have an opinion about, if the read-in was thorough. And if the read-in wasn't thorough then IMO the town thing to do would be admit it was a skim and ask for suggestions on things to look at.
VOTE: Myloninja13

but do you think it's a scum thing to do in the first place?

[northsidegal]

I agree with 253.
There should be plenty to have an opinion about, if the read-in was thorough. And if the read-in wasn't thorough then IMO the town thing to do would be admit it was a skim and ask for suggestions on things to look at.
VOTE: Myloninja13

but do you think it's a scum thing to do in the first place?

What do you mean by "it"? There are multiple possible interpretations of what you're asking.

when i say "it", i mean admitting that your read through didn't produce any strong reads.

[northsidegal]

The difference in reads from verydark between Kop and Mylo really worry me, especially to call Mylo town, says he's not following flow of play. He shows zero interest in reading Mylo scum despite others expressing scumtells about him. Tells me either a refusal to read Mylo scum, or tunnelled too much to tear himself away from his wagon and his reads are just a way to look busy and pro-town.

can you elaborate on this? it reads as if you're scumreading him for disagreeing with you, but i think the same thing with regards to mylo being towny.

[northsidegal]

well there's also my 100% ability to read northsidegal (previous owner of the slot) but sure we can go with the daytalk thing, which is something not within scum-NSG's range