Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Wisdom]

VOTE: math

[Wisdom]

VOTE: brass

[Wisdom]

as an ic you have the unique advantage of being able to pressure people without them being able to discredit your motivations

[Wisdom]

Is it not good to be involved in the set up? Don't think we want to discourage potential town from reading through and making solve attempts...

this reads like awkward scum

[Wisdom]

brass/uglyduck and one of {esp, beef}

thor and maria as wildcards

rest town

[Wisdom]

VOTE: thor

[Wisdom]

Mathdino - usual levels of setup speculation. I'm going to stay far away from MD v Maria. Null for now.
Maria - waters muddied by MD v Maria.

lots of words to say nothing

[Wisdom]

going with brass/ugly/thor right now

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom - how does Thor/Duck make sense?

why wouldn't it

[Wisdom]

My role PM.
You're arguing it as a scum team - why?
This is a childish word game dodge. Not impressed.

i was assuming you were implying it doesnt make sense for some reason
otherwise, i find you scummy, i find ugly scummy, so it makes sense

[Wisdom]

Mathdino's posts strike me as IIOA mixed with lurkscum opportunism

VOTE: Mathdino

ew

[Wisdom]

sure

[Wisdom]

or do you mean on the beef wagon? in that case no, i like my thor vote

[Wisdom]

What don't you like about the less cute duck?

his posts were feeling awkward
i kind of liked the reads post though

[Wisdom]

most of what you're posting is pointless and just there to make you look busy

including your questions to me

[Wisdom]

just vote him and then ignore him like ill do

[Wisdom]

Vote Thor or Beefster.

why is a beefster vote something youre equally happy about

[Wisdom]

I'm also just assuming that Wisdom has random guesses because he refuses to share his analysis with anyone in every game.

lmao

[Wisdom]

heres some analysis for you, brass

your catchup is full of popular opinions and most of your explanations for your reads have already been made by someone else

aka, either youre scum or terribad town who isnt really playing but just sheeping
occam's razor says its the former

[Wisdom]

I don't understand Thor scum in fact Thor feels like town. The stance he has taken is one that is one against most of the town and it's just digger him further into the ground and he's not trying to backtrack out of it either he still seems to believe it and has got into arguments over it hell it's getting him lynched all because of 1 thing.

have you played with scum thor before
It doesnt seem like you have

[Wisdom]

no i'm not doing this thor i'm sorry

you're asking me questions specifically to get me talking and talking nonstop about something that's just not useful

the opportunity cost of talking about this as opposed to actual fucking reads on people is massive

Meanwhile you're talking and talking about it WHILE REFUSING TO JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Either you're trying to bait me, are a silly fool, or are scum.
Which is it?
I'll accept a 4th option if you have one.

lol
i told you guys. You have to ignore scum like thor.

[Wisdom]

what in his ISO is town-indicative to you?

nothing, and youre probably right, but idk anything about beefster and would be much happier getting rid of thor

[Wisdom]

thor/brass/beef

maria is a contender too

everyone else good enough for now

[Wisdom]

you can see why im scumreading each of those in my iso, im not pretending im providing an original readlist like you did

basically, the difference is you want to look town while i dont

@brass

[Wisdom]

It is obvious to me that Thor and Beef are main scum together.

did you mean to say "not scum together" here?

[Wisdom]

you have ugly and maria in a townblock based on a single post
right

[Wisdom]

Ill bite

Wow, MariaR literally right after my catch up does something I wasn't expecting and posted a full argument. Definitely not lynching here today, now

Please expand on this and why it makes maria town

[Wisdom]

OK, I think I want to eat the NK tonight, so here's my scum team:
Thor + Maria + Espeonage

Beef + Thor doesn't make sense to me at all. However, Espeonage voting Thor does. Why? because I love to do those meta dives (much like Mathdino does) when I have he time, and in this game Espeonage tunneled his teammate relentlessly until he got him lynched. (Thor was on the other scum team, btw). Mafia won because of that particular gambit.

eh, scum espe bussing doesnt mean that espe cant be town who figured out thor

i get how you got there but its reaching

[Wisdom]

how do you feel about thor/Maria/brass instead

brass "scumreading" thor yet focusing on beef and his weird take on Maria fit what im expecting

@judge

[Wisdom]

I know what you meant by main scum, you just missed a "not" there

@judge

[Wisdom]

Ill bite

Wow, MariaR literally right after my catch up does something I wasn't expecting and posted a full argument. Definitely not lynching here today, now

Please expand on this and why it makes maria town

If I need to have 5 people in my town pool, this post was enough to put her above anyone else. She's actually more null, but effort to sort and to provide reasoning is there. Which is more than I can say for most others.

I was considering between Math or MariaR, and landed just slightly on MariaR, would still not lynch Math today, but he's argued for at least one policy lynch today which is anti-town in my opinion.

this literally did nothing to explain why that maria post made you townread her
effort and reasoning..? Scum maria cant provide those?

[Wisdom]

though a voice in my head says that brass is likely wking town maria here

[Wisdom]

no it didnt, thor changes shit to smurf when quoting

[Wisdom]

esp i can't see math scum, sell me?

[Wisdom]

ill reread with the extra knowledge but for now my reads remain as they were, i.e. brass and Maria

VOTE: brass

[Wisdom]

MariaR is probs the third scum from wagon and NK analysis. No way all three scum are on that wagon. Thor was being stupid and when town is stupid scum get antsy about being on the low hanging wagon.

NK comes in to is because it means no one was on to something hard that was accurate enough to deter them from killing the (iirc) incredibly dense IC. Also that end of day softy softy bus is badstuffs.

nk analysis is stupid here, idk who doesnt kill the conftown

[Wisdom]

I just realized there is an actual player named "UglyDuck". I assumed everyone was referring to tw due to his avatar. xD

ugly is probably not scum because of this

[Wisdom]

Esp's posts are good. This is nothing like the way I saw him play in Jungle Republic when he was mafia. (or was he WW?)

esp isnt either, this is a buddying attempt

[Wisdom]

Mathdino's posts strike me as IIOA mixed with lurkscum opportunism

VOTE: Mathdino

and this, ugh
I wanna say bringing unnecessary attention onto math isnt very buddy-like, but math wasn't at any real danger so distancing is possible

[Wisdom]

VOTE: maria

[Wisdom]

brass actually looks a little better for trying to lynch beef over thor

[Wisdom]

while maria voted beef yet didn't really care to sell the lynch,

and

tried to connect him to me in 296

[Wisdom]

what are your reads?

[Wisdom]

i posted my opinions re: ugly, brass and Maria post flip
thoughts?

[Wisdom]

btw math, looks like you were wrong
scum had a rolecop so far and I doubt thats the end of it
just getting a rolecop when it adds a role to deal with feels silly

[Wisdom]

also just realized that reads based off beef's iso are useless given the traitor

[Wisdom]

townreads at least
otherwise his math v maria weirdness is still relevant

[Wisdom]

ill reread but i think math might be the traitor here

[Wisdom]

like, i could see math v maria being math's way to tell Maria hes the traitor

[Wisdom]

like, math's setup posts and stuff did not feel like someone with knowledge about what choices scum made and such, which is one of the reasons he felt town to me

but traitor works

[Wisdom]

im not traitorhunting, math
im trying to understand how I should feel about you
like, it matters a lot if half the reasons i think youre town are invalid due to traitor

[Wisdom]

Surprisingly, the two people I don' think are scum with Beefster are brass and Maria.

why not Maria?

[Wisdom]

meh
i suppose her vote made the beef wagon a contender

[Wisdom]

his beef vote was the first vote on beef, and right after you and me expressed our dislike for beef's vote on you

that doesnt sound like anti-bussing

[Wisdom]

i dont think either of the quotes your provided are telling

[Wisdom]

i mean the same holds true for most players, as beef was inactive

i dont value lack of interactions much

[Wisdom]

VOTE: uglyduck

[Wisdom]

also just realized that reads based off beef's iso are useless given the traitor

also jjc's thing is plausible

[Wisdom]

Ithink he scum off the wagon was Ugly and I don't think the post Wisdom quoted means anything. In fact, it could have happened in the scum PT. Like, "Everytime he someone says Ugly Duck I think of TW".. "That'd be great if you said it in the man thread".. "OK. I will.."

this i mean

[Wisdom]

how

[Wisdom]

math

was

pretty quick to townread ugly off his readlist

[Wisdom]

Tell you what. Let's sort out if it is worst or math tomorrow and lynch the definite scum in Maria today.

idk, jjd does have a point about maria's beef vote
why make your rolecop a likely lynch

[Wisdom]

math

was

pretty quick to townread ugly off his readlist

Which reads list

ugly's

[Wisdom]

Tell you what. Let's sort out if it is worst or math tomorrow and lynch the definite scum in Maria today.

idk, jjd does have a point about maria's beef vote
why make your rolecop a likely lynch

I have hardheaded my godfather in vengeful. Don't wisdom this shit. The numbers say Maria is scum.

you are you though

[Wisdom]

disagree, its a shallow stance that can come from newbscum

[Wisdom]

So there's basically no way we lynch anyone other than Beefster and thor today

does scum math post this
i dont see much reason to try and limit the lynch options to your rolecop and thor

[Wisdom]

though i forget that the traitor wouldnt know beef is the rolecop

[Wisdom]

yeah but bussing beef is plausible when you dont know hes a rolecop
beef isnt exactly the best scum

[Wisdom]

same goes for maria
brass less so

[Wisdom]

ugly is likely too

[Wisdom]

ugly main scum
maria or math traitor

is what im seeing here

[Wisdom]

math more likely given i expect a scum on the wagon

[Wisdom]

sure
you even called one of his posts a scumclaim

[Wisdom]

also i dont see why you-town is asking these "why me" questions right now

[Wisdom]

For example; he agreed with me that you (Wisdom) are likely Town based on you replacing Dunn who had confirmed too late. Why would scum!Dino agree to that notion that early?

because he wanted to buddy me

[Wisdom]

Also Dino busses are planned and organized with the bussed partner. Do you think Dino instructed Beef to do that hammer if they had daychat?

i think dino is the traitor, so no chat whatsoever

[Wisdom]

jjd, lets assume ugly is the other main scum
you dont think maria or math is the traitor, so who?

[Wisdom]

Maybe, but I think it would have been more practical that he should have shot you on N1. If he felt the need to buddy you (and I'd argue buddying doesn't even work on you) then he felt threatened by you, and should have got rid of you already.

youre assuming hes recruited
im not

[Wisdom]

OK.. riddle me this: Why would scum!Dino say he would shoot the conf!Town when I had offered him a carte blanche off that NK already?

eh ive done that as scum before
its not like cancelling wrong meta on you earns you scumpoints

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom: I', not even sure there is one. I said earlier that Scum might have also recruited their Traitor so Beef knew he was hammering Town for sure.

ok even in that case, who is the third scum?

[Wisdom]

Math, then why didnt you mention any of this yesterday and let us lynch thor?

[Wisdom]

bs
Town-you who were so certain about beef doesnt lynch a good player like thor

[Wisdom]

and "no one asked" is a blatant lie.
I specifically asked you why you want a beef lynch.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: math

[Wisdom]

that answer is way less "im 100% certain"

[Wisdom]

I would've explained all that but
- no one asked

you said you would have explained
ie you admit you didnt
dont try to turn this around now

[Wisdom]

jjd sorry, youre wrong here. Math is scum.

[Wisdom]

and tried to signal i was a traitor by calling beefster's vote a scumclaim

the fuck
i never said such a thing

[Wisdom]

like, i dont even care about the scumclaim comment
you asked if your d1 play makes sense with you knowing beef is scum, and yes, it does
that's all there is to it

[Wisdom]

"you cant prove im scum so im not"

-math

[Wisdom]

like espe's case literally makes more sense because it at least presumes that i rolled scum with beefster and was like "LOLBEEFSTER" and planned to drop him

you mean to tell me bussing beef while knowing you're getting zero value from your rolecop makes more sense somehow

[Wisdom]

not seeing either as scum

[Wisdom]

you trying to defend yourself is not helping you
i dont give a shit about selfmeta

[Wisdom]

In fact, he just recemtly said he would not vote UD for the rest of the game

why does him saying that is an indicator they're buddies

[Wisdom]

VOTE: ugly

[Wisdom]

jjd, when esp made that post there were zero votes on beef
so its not like he was trying to get attention off beef

[Wisdom]

also what do you mean about the nk choice? didnt you say esp wouldnt shoot the ic?

[Wisdom]

oh. then you think esp would?

[Wisdom]

Yes. I think the entire scum team is less experienced because of:

then esp doesnt make sense as hes experienced

[Wisdom]

in that scenario picking the rolecop and orchestrating beefster's death would be a super WIFOM move to clear JJD as town

except jjd solidly pushed thor over beef

[Wisdom]

To my understanding (and Dino can correct me if I'm misunderstanding), Dino thinks the best way to go for scum is to not pick any additional abilities. If they think daychat will help they can pick that and only that, So 50% probability to pick daychat only and 50% to pick nothing is what I'd expect from Mathdino.

except math-traitor has no say on what scum pick

[Wisdom]

i dont think jjd shoots the ic either
it was ugly

[Wisdom]

btw math, since you like meta
there's a completed ugly town game, have a look

[Wisdom]

maria more likely than esp but sure

[Wisdom]

brass your scumhunting is really shallow
I rarely explain my reads and it doesn't make me scum
its not as black and white as that

[Wisdom]

btw since math isnt doing it

This is uglyduck's completed town game and I see a different person there

[Wisdom]

maria is a traitor if shes scum
you said lynching traitors is not a priority
so why is maria more interesting right now

[Wisdom]

maria is a traitor if shes scum
you said lynching traitors is not a priority
so why is maria more interesting right now

this is the first i've heard of it

explain?

jjd's point about maria's vote
maria was not activating the beef wagon knowing it's the rolecop

[Wisdom]

also maria most likely doesnt shoot the ic either

[Wisdom]

yes thats what i said too, that there wasnt a real push there
but her vote is what made beef a possibility and she didnt really have to vote beef there

[Wisdom]

hes still scum either way

[Wisdom]

meh
i suppose the worst as main scum with maria or esp as traitor isnt impossible
neither have said a word about him

[Wisdom]

-Brassherald - conflicted between town lean and scum lean

i think brass has a pretty scummy playstyle but his beef push was genuine

[Wisdom]

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW

what does scum tw look like?

[Wisdom]

most likely

[Wisdom]

he was feeling like town to me until i skimmed a scumgame and realized it wasnt very different

[Wisdom]

what about tw, maria?

[Wisdom]

ugh i think maria is town after all
or shes that good that her posts frustrate me to where i think shes town

[Wisdom]

like wtf
why are you assuming there has to be a scum in me/math
why are you voting judge when youre basing your scumread on him on your assumption that me/math has a scum
why do you just not care about ugly or tw

[Wisdom]

beefster hammers anyway because it saves him

[Wisdom]

what if both ducks are scum

[Wisdom]

Ugly is prob town

?

[Wisdom]

the IC kill and I think that points to you and Math

you think math decides he needs a rolecop and then proceeds to kill the ic

[Wisdom]

tw posts suck btw
i can vote there too
it might be both ducks after all

[Wisdom]

So, Esp is trying to point out that he thinks I'm a PR, and Math is feeding the fire, and you guys don't want me to suggest that Esp is scum (and now basically the traitor)?

nah
why does he do it so obviously

[Wisdom]

heh math cant meta me i win

[Wisdom]

i dont think the goon mention is important either
i saw it as other word for "main scum"

[Wisdom]

Don't see why Ugly+Beef team lol hammer and kill the IC not like they were in a great spot to just kill the IC does nothing to change the gamestate or help a !scum ugly team

you are assuming beef didnt just hammer to save himself (he did)
you are assuming ugly isnt a complete newbie as scum (he is)

[Wisdom]

Don't see why Ugly+Beef team lol hammer and kill the IC not like they were in a great spot to just kill the IC does nothing to change the gamestate or help a !scum ugly team

you are assuming beef didnt just hammer to save himself (he did)
you are assuming ugly isnt a complete newbie as scum (he is)

also you're disregarding the ugly-traitor possibility completely

[Wisdom]

Pedit: Going for traitor reads feels like excuses to get a ML unless evidence supports a traitor soft.

are you listening to yourself
you just said ugly is town based only on what you think makes him not main scum

[Wisdom]

maria
- beef

is

shit at mafia and his hammer was just to save himself. there's no hidden meaning.
- arguing math picked rolecop and killed the ic just so he can push that he would never do it is stupid. you said it yourself that its not worth it to go that far when more PRs means he'll be caught eventually
- traitors are still scum, dont go around calling them town even if you dont think they're the priority today
- voting judge is stupid and inconsistent with any of your theories; if you think math/me is the other main scum and judge is scum with math/me then judge would be the traitor and you just said you dont want to go after traitors

[Wisdom]

would you lynch me over the ducks if you could

@math

[Wisdom]

thats l-1

[Wisdom]

VOTE: the worst

[Wisdom]

Literally not touching Ugly until he comes and speaks for himsslf.
This is shit.

this feels like wking

[Wisdom]

I don't believe the claim.

[Wisdom]

Beefster was probably like "yo guys I'm site inactive and I'm playing like shit lately, just bus me on D1 or some shit".

then they dont give him rolecop

[Wisdom]

if he was like "bus me d1" he would stay a goon? why pick up rolecop on someone who wants to be bussed d1

[Wisdom]

TW scum means we're dealing with an unrecruited traitor

yeah, unless tw is hoping there isnt a goon cop, it means rolecop was the only modification

[Wisdom]

either that or hes trying to out pr(s) before he dies

[Wisdom]

Let's keep up my record of being lynched d2 in stack the deck for fucking awful reasons

Yeahhhhhh

btw goon cop doesnt say this

[Wisdom]

i dont remember faking townslips

[Wisdom]

i didnt? this is my first contact with this setup

[Wisdom]

even if they dont get to choose, there's a 50% chance beef is the rolecop so he doesnt say bus me d1

[Wisdom]

lol wisdom

i didnt even remember this
anatole just asked for someone to do vcs near the end of the game
i wasnt involved with the setup at all

[Wisdom]

i mean its pretty obvious ugly is also scum

[Wisdom]

either Math or Nacui (or both) are skum. I accidentally created too easy of an avenue for them to target me by being absent.

why not me? or jjd?

[Wisdom]

someone point out a town upside to Town!TW claiming Goon?

hes at L-1 with intent

[Wisdom]

lul

[Wisdom]

he didnt claim goon, he claimed goon cop. a town PR.

[Wisdom]

hes trying to play dumb

[Wisdom]

theres no way you read "i am goon cop" followed by a result and think it says "i am goon"

[Wisdom]

THAT SAID if he's traitor, then he just scumslipped knowing the worst is a goon

if hes scum he knows "goon cop" is a role
no way he thinks his buddy claimed goon

[Wisdom]

The pool of (Judge/Worst/Wisdom/Math) wins us the game 100% of the time

how is ugly out of this

[Wisdom]

why not just have the vig shoot ugly
if he doesnt die hes conf traitor

[Wisdom]

if he's traitor, why would he know goon cop is a role?

im assuming scum care about the setup

[Wisdom]

this is the mafia traitor PM
there's 0 reason he would go and check up and give a shit about possible TPRs

eh
i expect a newb scum who rolls traitor to check up on what town might have, like if they have something that can catch him or kill him
a vt ignoring the setup and just playing is a little more plausible

[Wisdom]

i still see ugly as most likely
what is the town motivation in trying to save the worst here

[Wisdom]

unwilling to lynch pr is one thing, claiming vt and asking to be lynched?

[Wisdom]

imagine if esp and maria played town like town

[Wisdom]

imagine if you took other peoples opinions into consideration instead of just calling them bad.

youre right, ill consider its math/judge and they pick rolecop and kill the ic

/sarcasm

[Wisdom]

i mean, tw doesnt necessarily share your views

[Wisdom]

jjd pls

[Wisdom]

claiming vig is a scumclaim to the vig though and means certain death tonight

[Wisdom]

or that he was playing dumb

[Wisdom]

why does he do that instead of lolhammering the goon cop

[Wisdom]

its tw/duck, yes.

[Wisdom]

we're lynching the worst, and shooting uglyduck on TW townflip
reevaluate tomorrow, but there MUST be the original goon between those two

[Wisdom]

you dont say

[Wisdom]

Yes, definitely ugly regardless of tw flip

[Wisdom]

were you scum

[Wisdom]

its either maria or esp

VOTE: maria

[Wisdom]

vt

[Wisdom]

I'm paranoid that the endgame that's being set up is Espeonage/Wisdom/Mathdino, which ends in my lynch.

im never lynching you over esp

[Wisdom]

if it's not Wisdom, it would probably be Math at this point,

its esp, not math

[Wisdom]

VOTE: esp

dont want maria anymore

[Wisdom]

also fine with lynching me as long as you dont fuck it up afterwards

[Wisdom]

we can lynch both but you don't trust me so

[Wisdom]

idk, either of em could be
but maria being ok with selflynch felt somewhat townish

[Wisdom]

goon i believe

[Wisdom]

maria both of us are town, as is brass. if its not you its esp

[Wisdom]

his tunnely reads and distance from the gameflow

[Wisdom]

he's perfectly capable of faking his town tone

[Wisdom]

you can lynch me as long as esp doesnt win 3p

[Wisdom]

i dont trust maria's reads

has she even played with scum esp? I feel like shes saying his tone looks like one town game of his so he must be town

[Wisdom]

okay

do you have experience with town/scum maria tho

yes
cant read her

[Wisdom]

yeah that's what i meant by 1083
esp has felt like hes been pushing things without any real interest to gamesolve

[Wisdom]

thats l-1

all yours brass

[Wisdom]

i don't think its wrong

[Wisdom]

VOTE: no lynch

while ill never vote math or brass over Maria here, this is still optimal

[Wisdom]

Although given brass has expressed he scumreads me more than maria this almost certainly means math dies

[Wisdom]

Does that mean youre against nolynch in 4p

[Wisdom]

Is your death a bad thing? Its not like we have to end the day before youve said what you have to say
While if we try to lynch as it is there might be paranoia about you being scum

[Wisdom]

I mean, as much as i see you or brass being scum over Maria very unlikely, it remains a possibility
Id rather you die and have one less worry

[Wisdom]

Maria we dont care about your defense
Who is scum

[Wisdom]

Like I would hate winning a game because of ate if I was scum I would want to win because I fooled others.

I mean, you can fool others with ate

[Wisdom]

right so now can we hear who is scum and why

[Wisdom]

Speaking of which, do you agree with NL?

[Wisdom]

no worries, 2 of 4 wanting NL means NL as its 3 to lynch

[Wisdom]

Allowing the tracker to inno me or maria means he then needs to convince 2conftown its the other
While now everything is open