Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Mathdino]

VOTE: jmo
Policy

[Mathdino]

Jk
VOTE: the worst

[Mathdino]

WOWOWOWWOW

i literally just got the PM telling me to post

eat it mod i'm literally the only one who's posted

[Mathdino]

sure why not

VOTE: Nauci

[Mathdino]

Is it bad that I actually think Nauci is town

I'm only on this wagon for the dental benefits

[Mathdino]

If you're voting a slot you think is town - yeah, it's inherently and objectively bad unless you're scum.

We have many disagreements on a theory level

I could wagon brass if anyone's down for that

[Mathdino]

Thanks duckling

VOTE: brassherald

[Mathdino]

Me? Yeah

You I'm not sure on

Duck
Duck
Duck
Duck
...
Dino!

[Mathdino]

btw if anyone was wondering

really the primary version of this setup that isn't townsided is the one where the mafia literally either pick nothing or pick daytalk (assuming they can actually get something out of it)

when i ran this setup it was lost because people were like "oh yeah that makes sense for there to be 4 PRs seems legit"

even with the benefit of WIFOM (MAYBE SCUM MIXED THINGS UP), this setup becomes breakable with too many power roles

so expect goons and not many PRs

[Mathdino]

501: Nothing
520: Daytalk + Rolecop
530: Daytalk + JOAT
539: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
548: Nothing
557: Rolecop + JOAT
574: Daytalk + Rolecop (I played this!)(I also am one of few people with access to this mafia PT, which has still not been archived after 4 years)
582: Recruit + Rolecop (I won this!)
594: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
622: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
644: Nothing
651: Recruit + Rolecop + Bulletproof
663: Rolecop
684: Rolecop + JOAT
711: Recruit (I modded this!)

I stand corrected. I do think it's pretty -EV to select Rolecop just to add another TPR that needs to be rolecopped/killed but that might be because I generally think MS PR play is hilariously obvious.

Scum tends to lose the more they pick I think. Not a 100% rule but it's definitely a trend.

Innocent Child is good when played well.

Also this setup is for some reason sometimes run as 12p and sometimes as 13p. Dunno how much that affects the balance.

[Mathdino]

How often does scum just pick nothing or pick only daytalk? I recall someone in the last game was talking about taking the two goon buffs to nullify GC which was interesting. Leaning on better setup specers than me as to whether this would actually work/whether people are likely to come up with it.

Last Stack the Deck Creature/Jay slot would have been a great d1 lynch until that damn claim. IC feels like an exceptionally good roll in this setup.

Doing this either:

- Creates three useful TPRs anyway
or
- Creates four TPRs that aren't Goon Cop

I'm generally of the opinion that the claimspace is more valuable than anything else.

At the very least, given the caliber of the majority of players here, I'd definitely expect a lighter scumteam. Especially after it's pretty much MD consensus that less is more.

[Mathdino]

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

[Mathdino]

@Mod: Is confirming in the scum PT good enough for confirmation?
What about picking up the PM but not responding to it?

[Mathdino]

As pointed out in the sample role PMs I explicitly ask(ed) for confirmation via PM. This is why Dunnstral was replaced, as he had picked up the PM but confirmed too late.

trying to think if this says anything about thor's alignment (dependent on mafia flips)

Feel free to describe the theory of voting town in RVS as particularly pro-town.
I'll wait.
Literally the best you can manage is a gawd awful gambit claim. (which you're clearly doing spit with, and you can gambit voting a scum read too)
Then I'll roll my eyes.
Then we can move on.

@theworst - why do you think Nauci is less likely scum and Brass is more likely?

sorry i kept you waiting
any vote has an opportunity cost of not someone else
i thought of chainsawvoting you for the nauci vote but an RVS thor wagon is generally useless even if you're scum
and vanity voting someone in RVS is similarly not that useful
my favourite RVS wagons by far are the lynchbaity players that draw attention to themselves with a weird playstyle/tone

basically i have little faith that this wagon was gonna lead to a lynch and the potential for readable reactions from nauci (who i don't KNOW is town, i just have a shitty 1 post read on) and from others was greater by joining that wagon

that said i like the brass wagon now better anyway

why did you ask the worst about it and not me?

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

explain

[Mathdino]

ahhh good point

i mean dunnstral lurks out of games no matter his alignment

but does scumstral not realise that he's supposed to confirm?

or does scumstral assume that posting in the scum PT is enough?

[Mathdino]

that would be a relief to not have to read wisdom lol

do you have a read on nauci btw?

[Mathdino]

Jjd choose between scumlynching brass and policy lynching Maria

Unfortunately can't do both

But yeah Maria reads are consistently < random

[Mathdino]

You literally started the game voting my only lock townread

I can't deal with you holding up lynches in even numbers

[Mathdino]

I'm not holding up anything you're holding a petty ass grudge for no reason what so ever. I'm just gonna ignore your comments since you have the ego of someone who thinks they're a genius and yet the pettiness of a 13 year old girl. Go on and try it

Where did you get the impression I was holding a grudge for anything

Cut the attitude pls thx

I said nothing insulting or personal to you

Feel free to explain how it's actually suboptimal fmpov to policy lynch you given your meta

[Mathdino]

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

Is it not good to be involved in the set up? Don't think we want to discourage potential town from reading through and making solve attempts...

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

[Mathdino]

Feel free to explain how it's actually suboptimal fmpov to policy lynch you given your meta

I assume you're grudging me or an issue because I have 0 idea where you get this idea that my reads are random or my meta shows that.
The fact you're wanting to policy lynch someone for

disagreeing with you

just blows my mind

see i feel like you just pathologically misrep people ingame

- if you came to the conclusion that i was grudging you (and if you actually cared), you could've approached me out-of-game about it the last time i tried to policy lynch you, instead of spouting AtE to use to your advantage ingame

- i read a lot of games onsite. you have a record of sub-random reads as town. which is fine (a lot of players i really enjoy do), but you also push them (and town) over a cliff while arguing everyone else is idiotic, which distracts towns into having to argue with you forever when you respond THIS vitriolically

- your scum meta basically hides behind your anti-town town meta so people can't lynch you for being anti-town. you actively try to clear yourself on dumbtells
like you literally signed up for one of my games, rolled scum, and proceeded to pretend to not have read the rules or the game

- i would've been willing to policy lynch you regardless. the fact that you opened with possibly the most backwards read i can think of right now (which i'm starting to see is going to be an issue) just exacerbates the policylust.
no, i would obviously never policy lynch someone just for disagreeing with me. people disagree with me all the time.

- you didn't actually answer my question or acknowledge my concern, you just responded with "nah fuck you i'm ignoring you and your pettiness". which is a common theme to your gameplay.

- also our last real game together literally consisted of you, an effective daycop, holding up D1 to an unreadable vitriolic standstill, then trying to cop someone that radiantcowbells and i were 90% sure was scum (who we both have a 100% track record of reading), while we were literally trying to lynch them, while THE ENTIRE GAME was telling you to just check someone else
so my impression of you is just not a team player, and you seem to be pretending not to remember that

note that i don't actually think any of this is alignment indicative
i don't have much confidence in my ability to read maria (will defer to anyone here who does)
it's just a good lynch to make

[Mathdino]

no but that's the thing

i'm not the one getting upset here; i play as optimally as i know how with the facts on the table

- you haven't disproven anything i just said

- policy lynches are entirely game relevant, you're a lynch candidate for at least 2 people

- i just said in the post above that i'm not trying to lynch you because you disagree with me

you're playing up the "math has a big ego woe is me" thing to get AtE cred

do you have reasons for the JJD scumread

Edit: Sure. JJD has a meta (I checked it when they entered the thread) with completed games of either alignment. This "people are town because of confirmations" logic is, while fakable by scum, not something that I think JJD would actually choose to do as scum. It's outright an anti-scum thing to do; if JJD has actually read my games like he's claimed, he'd know that this kind of logic is exactly what I'd buy into.
So unless he's literally defending his scumbuddy for flaking out of the game entirely (in which case, balls), it's highly likely JJD is town.

[Mathdino]

lemme be more clear then

if JJD had 0 meta whatsoever, i'd be townreading them

given that they do have meta, i checked their scum meta to see if it's just something they easily fake as scum (because hell, good enough scum players should never be locktowned without intimate knowledge of meta)

it doesn't appear to be something they'd do as scum

therefore my original townread was solid

[Mathdino]

Told you guys the setup spec would pan out.

If Nauci was one of the OG 2 scum, we're dealing with 2 goons and possibly daytalk.

That said, I don't think Nauci is scum here. If Nauci IS scum, she seems to be playing the "play exactly as pro-town as you would if you were really town" philosophy, in which case she's literally good to have around even if scum.

It definitely seems like Nauci read Open 711. Her participation in the setup spec doesn't read like it's the second time she's typed it (the first time being the scum PT).

WKing means white knight, yeah. Aggressive unnecessary defence -- the IC doesn't need other people to say "don't tell the IC how to play" because the IC is never getting lynched anyway. It's the kind of thing designed to appeal to the IC's reads.

Analysis of brass's meta is correct, I'm guessing she read fferyllt's Newbie 1856 (with Thor) and potentially my later analysis of brass's play.

Case on brass is just the badvote. Scumread is about equal to Duck.

[Mathdino]

Town: JJD, Nauci

Probtown: Thor, Wisdom (pending my sleeping on this analysis)

Null: TW, Beefster, Espeonage

Lynchable: Maria

Probscum: brass, UglyDuck

Only 11 players to sort, I'm liking this.

[Mathdino]

Hope you stick around onsite. I've been working at getting better at metadiving lately. Seems to be the Way of the Future lol

Open 711 (Stack the Deck) was one I modded and the worst played in. Potentially good for TW meta but otherwise not that useful.
D1. Town ran up confscum, confscum claimed roleblocker, town ignored the slot and lynched someone else
N1. Mafia AND the vigilante both shot the worst, but the Bodyguard absorbed both kills and fucking died.
D2. Town was like WELL I GUESS TW IS THE TRAITOR and lynched him.
N2. The vigilante shot the guy that the claimed-roleblocker """roleblocked""", hitting town.
D3. 8p MyLo, Goon Cop had no results, and they obviously lost.

Basically a train wreck for town due to lynching solely on mechanics.

If you can figure out how to reliably read MariaR by meta, then respect.

Also I was recently fucked over by scum-TW who successfully played his town meta recently in the Earthbound game, so there's that if you're interested (also has town-Beefster literally gamethrowing in MyLo so yeah).

[Mathdino]

I don't see why we would ever want to not criticize conftown's posting. TIAM was a confirmed mason in that abortion of a game and scum MVPed. I didn't think anyone could be that anti-town, but I should set lower expectations for humanity.

I think IC answering questions directed at other people is very bad practice, correct me if I'm wrong.

oh whoops i mixed up my memory of uglyduck's post, swapped who he was defending and who he was attacking
the point stands though

UglyDuck's post was basically "hey IC, stop discouraging Math". This is designed to indirectly appeal to me and reads incredibly inconfident, like he's also trying to stay in the IC's good graces.

There's a way of critiquing innocent children like "Hey dude your reads are utterly awful" or "Please stop butting into my conversations while I'm trying to get reads", but then there's "Hey let's not discourage potential town here..."

[Mathdino]

The way the role PMs are written for Stack the Deck means that in that niche scenario that's literally never occurred in this setup's history, the BG absorbs all kills.

[Mathdino]

At least the IC is a low poster that's good.

you spoke too soon

jmo chill

[Mathdino]

As an IC, what do you propose I do?

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

[Mathdino]

Awrighty just wondering whether you have an **angle** or just throwing some comments around

Don't be so applogetic, or I'll think you're scum. Lol

So, I like to catch up and post on individual posts that I agree or disagree with. I've never been great at making cases, just breaking down the game and getting better with reads as the game goes on and I see patterns/changes in play.

okay see this is a very very bad post

- if TW is scum, he's literally going to stop being so apologetic thanks to you showing your hand

- if you continually tell scum what posts you disagree with, they'll modify their play to get townread by you

[Mathdino]

Wisdom's take on the game is identical to mine.
Which honestly, the last time I played a real game with Wisdom, literally made him scum -_-
whatever we'll see if we're right

Re: Setup spec: I would choose daytalk without traitor because daytalk is literally what enables you to find the traitor. Having a traitor is also arguably GOOD for mafia because it ruins any associations coming from the goons if they play well.

Re: Nauci: I considered that she was pocketing me, definitely (I'm not a total idiot lol). Just beyond that, I'm also developing a profile on what I think Nauci's scumrange is, and I think she's gone out of it. Buddying can come from town, and I wouldn't have gotten in the fight with Maria if I thought I would lose socially/rhetorically.

Re: Brass push: I didn't see that question. I agree he's capable of that as town, but I don't know what he is or isn't capable of as scum. I have him as more likely scum.
And the alternative was Nauci at the time which was a townread even before the "blatant pocketing" lol.

[Mathdino]

people are still wagoning a V/LA obvtown nauci for some dumb shit

instead of scumlynching brass/uglyduck (i'd actually more prefer uglyduck right now) or policy lynching maria

[Mathdino]

espeonage i know this is some dumb shit coming from me
but you gotta learn to take mafia less seriously to keep up with the current meta
that was a phonepost joke on my own tendency to policy lynch people
i actually really like jmo as a player
was always gonna unvote right after

[Mathdino]

Thor is scum. This is thor's scum game. Thor is setting up fake arguments to get himself involved in a discussion that people will ultimately not want to take a side on. He needs to go EARLY or he will just systematically kill everyone that will oppose him.

Lynch the fuck out of Thor

See I definitely recognised Thor as playing what I know of his scumgame, so I could super get down with this, but I also know nothing of Thor's towngame (and just assumed these kinds of arguments are his general playstyle). I usually just read Thor off of how stupid his reads are.

What Thor town meta are you using?

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

Dude. Arguing with the IC and telling him to stop being shit is hella pro town. Don't be fucking dumb. If the IC is shit and we follow the IC we lose. So we don't follow the IC.

Has nothing to do with that. It's the awkward tepidness of it. Like he's simultaneously WKing me (I don't need to be WK'd) while deferring to the IC. It's very different from calling the IC shit (what you're doing).

Espeonage is hard-town so far btw.

[Mathdino]

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

We need to have a serious discussion about how being aggressive as town is better than being durdly. Your day play theory needs an overhaul I stg.[/quote]
I more meant "not wallposting". You can't seriously think my dayplay theory is "don't be aggressive". I pushed wagons all over the place as IC in that game.

The point in not showing your hand just means that the IC shouldn't explain in full what they're thinking internally and why, until they're ready to force the entire town to sheep them.

You need to be either shutting the fuck up and throwing votes around without context until you get an idea on who is working with you, and who is working for you. (the former being town and the latter being scum)

Like yeah this is my IC playstyle.
My point is I think UglyDuck is doing the latter.

Ugly Duck has not done anything alignment indicative outside of calling the IC to account. Which I've also done, and funnily enough, you've done. So sure they could be scum but they've done jack shit that can tell us that.

The action isn't AI, the phrasing is. If they were like "So are you gonna stop being fucking useless?" it'd be different. It reads like they're afraid of the IC coming after them.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

We need to have a serious discussion about how being aggressive as town is better than being durdly. Your day play theory needs an overhaul I stg.

I more meant "not wallposting". You can't seriously think my dayplay theory is "don't be aggressive". I pushed wagons all over the place as IC in that game.

The point in not showing your hand just means that the IC shouldn't explain in full what they're thinking internally and why, until they're ready to force the entire town to sheep them.

[Mathdino]

Can you clarify - I am new to this forum. Is this to say that you believe the player base of this game to be generally on the more experienced end of the spectrum?

Not necessarily super experienced (although a lot of them are), but more aware of how not to make shit choices as scum. Hence why I believe town isn't stacked with PRs this game.

I literally have no idea what you're trying to say in 161. Rephrase?

[Mathdino]

holy balls it's like you're trying to mimic all my reads lol

brass wagon looks pretty useless so let's do this

VOTE: Thor

[Mathdino]

You're laughing a lot about it without actually addressing the question really.
Why do you think Nauci's scumrage precludes buddying?
If this is her town game I would be *shocked* to discover her scum game precludes buddying because it would make her super easy to sort.
Please back this up so we can all sort her in 2.5 seconds and be done with it [/sarcasm based on lack of belief this can happen because I think I'm being handed a load].

I never said her scumrange precludes buddying. I said
- I think she has in general gone out of her scumrange
- Buddying can come from town, and I often do get buddied by town

2 separate points.

[Mathdino]

Reads so far:

Nauci - This sort of self-consciousness is not the scummy kind. probtown.
Mathdino - usual levels of setup speculation. I'm going to stay far away from MD v Maria. Null for now.
Maria - waters muddied by MD v Maria.

Looking into brassherald.

also these are literally not reads

do something game relevant please

[Mathdino]

beefster/brassherald/thor is a surprisingly viable scumteam actually

[Mathdino]

Digging the Math/Wis mindmeld (I hope)

I'm stuck in an internal wifom deathtrap re townreading Math but they're both townleans at least

it's just

the last time i perfectly mindmelded wisdom to the point that i was hard defending him/WKing him all of D1

he was scum trying to pocket me

"At one point, you were so deep in bromance mode that you actually started answering questions

for him

." - TellTaleHeart

it's k tho i lynched him D2

[Mathdino]

yes it does

go read newbie 1856 and ISO me and thor

it absolutely comes from scum!Thor

the important question is whether it comes from town!Thor (in which case all that shit is NAI)

[Mathdino]

could've been wrong about uglyduck

i don't think the "mathdino/maria scumteam" thing comes from scum, that was interesting

feeling thor/brass/beefster right now

[Mathdino]

could've been wrong about uglyduck

i don't think the "mathdino/maria scumteam" thing comes from scum, that was interesting

Yeah? What if he's just waiting for you to flip town to call his scum buddy town??

And what's with the soul/gut read on the IC?

VOTE: UglyDuck

...?

Okay, but
1. That means him being scum despite the towntell is primarily consistent with Maria-scum (in which case hell yes let's just lynch Maria and see what she flips).

2. You and Espeonage are both incapable at reading IC-related sarcasm then?

Like, this is textbook grasping at straws. Get outta tunnel moddddeeeee

[Mathdino]

My role PM.
You're arguing it as a scum team - why?
This is a childish word game dodge. Not impressed.

i was assuming you were implying it doesnt make sense for some reason
otherwise, i find you scummy, i find ugly scummy, so it makes sense

So your scum team is, in fact, a top scum reads list?

is this supposed to be a deep question

most people try to see if their top scumreads are consistent as scum together

[Mathdino]

I never said her scumrange precludes buddying. I said
- I think she has in general gone out of her scumrange
- Buddying can come from town, and I often do get buddied by town

2 separate points.

Okay.

1. What is her scumrange in your opinion and how is she out of it here?
2. Why did you find her buddying here so clearly town as to not deserve questioning when it was not just buddying, but a blatant attack on someone for doing what you were also doing, while ignoring that you did the same?

1. I'm not going to out my entire profile on Nauci just to prove to you that my read is genuine. If she's scum, creating a massive list of things that scum-Nauci wouldn't do would literally allow Nauci to get townread and beat me.
Like dude there's a limit to how much I'm willing to get into the nitty gritty.

2. Because I came off as more charismatic than Maria and socially "won" the argument, and I knew that when I got into the argument that I was going to "win" it?
Like I'm not going to give someone shit for reacting exactly as I expected people to react to that. *I* would've reacted like that.
And the fuck are you asking me to do to question it? It's literally Nauci being like "Wow Maria's kind of a dick here" mixed in with other game relevant content. I have no reason to have any issue with that. Townies have taken my sides in arguments before when I paint other players in bad lights.

@Math - also, the fact that you're even momentarily entertaining the absolute garbage play that my scum game would differ from my town game is either offensive to me, or I have *grossly* misrated the level of your play quality.

Since I've seen you as town, i don't think it's the latter.
So what is this waste of air exactly?

You're just... not asking good questions dude. And I'm gonna be honest, I know it's a huge meme that meta is trash, but people who literally don't believe in meta are lying to themselves. Some people are harder to meta (a lot of players are outside my ability to meta), but it's almost always still doable.

Your reads are off, you're not making the pushes that I would expect you to, you're currently wasting your vote on someone V/LA, you're asking a bunch of questions with mostly NAI answers, and then questioning OTHER people for not asking the same questions you are...

I expect you to be more pro-town I guess. If I can't toneread/metaread you I'll motivation read you. You haven't seemed to have been doing much for town wincon.

[Mathdino]

Why, how do you find the question not worth asking?

Because that question, along with the majority of the questions you've asked, are playstyle-indicative and skill-indicative rather than alignment-indicative.

It's not a sorting question. This is a thing Wisdom does. You know that. This is a thing people do in general. You know that too. You're not an idiot.

[Mathdino]

Mathdino's posts strike me as IIOA mixed with lurkscum opportunism

VOTE: Mathdino

hoooooly scumclaim batman i did not see this one coming

[Mathdino]

@Thor:
- I don't think I should've caught you last newbie game, and I think that the fact that your pushes were obviously shitty means it's possible your scumplay has regressed a bit. I obviously don't know about your townplay because I haven't gone through the motions there yet.

- Show us results then.

- what the fuck?
wait what?
seriously WHAT?
literally the last time stack the deck was run (something i ran) the D1 bodyguard claim was just an awful idea
if you want to make that proposal, then go right the fuck ahead dude
but you're literally trying to interrogate me for not having come up with that idea?
are you kidding me?

[Mathdino]

@Math - also, where do you come out with 'Thor isn't asking the questions I'd expect' while also saying stuff like 'I have no idea how Thor plays as town'.

I expect you to play well as town. I caught you for not playing well (in my eyes). That's basically my baseline.

[Mathdino]

thor i'm gonna be honest this is kinda muddying the game

i don't consider the answers produced by your questions to be especially alignment indicative

like the best i can say is that you seem to be intent on pressuring people to put them on edge or something

but even that doesn't seem to be working

Edit: are you seriously arguing this thor
like do you actually believe the bodyguard should claim

[Mathdino]

So there's basically no way we lynch anyone other than Beefster and thor today

[Mathdino]

thor it's not even necessarily that BG claim is utterly awful
i'm almost positive it doesn't change EV at all; it doesn't change claiming strategy because the IC's death will just confirm lack of BG

the point is that there's no universe in which town-you thinks that's a good idea

also i literally modded this setup and then called the D1 BG claim stupid

so if you're trying to argue that mathdino could be scum for not coming up with a "breaking strategy" that you expect, that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard

[Mathdino]

I don't think you understand the point of my newbie break

[Mathdino]

Tracker is 2/3 of the time impossible to kill
Claiming makes them either immune or makes them eat a shot for the cop
Like this discussion is so hilariously irrelevant to any sense of good strategy lol

[Mathdino]

For context people should ISO me and thor in newbie 1856 to see why

1. My break was different from asking the BG to claim (WHICH I'M ON RECORD AS A MODERATOR FOR THINKING IS BAD)
2. Thor as town would call that idea utterly idiotic
NGL I think thor is fishing for pr tells
This discussion only ends badly

[Mathdino]

yawn

VOTE: Beef

wake up

What do you think of Wisdom brass and Thor?

Brass doesn't get d1 lynched imo

[Mathdino]

Oh boy
I gave you your opportunity to go post in my MD thread about the setup and you did not
Incidentally the setup is even more broken than we'd imagined but that's beside the point

I'm stating 2 opinions that I've held on record outside of this thread
You don't actually believe that's alignment indicative my dude
This was a leading interrogation from the start

I'm done with this discussion, sorry, there's a limit to my desire to fill the thread with bad setup spec

[Mathdino]

Like, if you wanna talk to me about setup spec and breaking strategies some other time, feel free
That's irrelevant though

1. Everyone agrees its a bad idea. You clearly don't actually think it's a good idea.

2. I'm on record elsewhere for saying it's a bad idea. I also literally played as a bodyguard and did not claim d1.

3. I never use fake setup spec to my advantage in an open game as scum. Why the fuck would I do that? You accused me of the same shit in fferyllts game and I told you that same thing

4. You thinking this is alignment indicative for me is fake as hell. This is a process to build up to voting me based on a shit profile of "things town Mathdino would think".

[Mathdino]

and did not claim d1.

Tried not to claim that is
I ended up forced to

[Mathdino]

The fuck does it matter? What's your argument? That town Mathdino always asks BG to claim? I'VE BEEN AN IC IN THIS SETUP BEFORE.

[Mathdino]

Honestly, for one of the first times, I don't wanna have this argument.

Nauci and JJD are essentially correct. I don't have much to add. And Thor seems to be the only player in the game that wants this to happen.

Thor isn't making this argument in good faith. I know that, and Thor knows I know that.

In Newbie 1856, I argued (I believe correctly) that the 2d3 Newbie Setup is very optimisable by having the Tracker claim D1. This is because:
- The Tracker can be protected 2/3 of the time if it exists
- It prevents scum from fakeclaiming Tracker later on
- The 1/3 of the time it DOES die, it eats the kill for the Cop.

Thor countered by saying (during and after the game, so this wasn't cuz he was scum):
- It's bad to create a situation where Tracker can die N1 without providing results.

- It's bad for a PR to claim early, because this robs town of VCA and the ability to read players who otherwise would've voted up that PR.

Thor doesn't believe in having more confirmed town running around too early, because this worsens dayplay.

Now Thor is arguing that it's beneficial for there to be more confirmed town.

Basically, this is a long drawn out reaction test that's just filling up the thread with trash: Thor doesn't believe his own argument, and this content is NAI from everyone else. Thor seems to think that town-me would similarly want D1 PR claims just like in the Newbie game, but that's ridiculous and the circumstances are clearly different.

Thor isn't scum because of his "BG should claim" argument. He doesn't believe that, and he's not genuinely arguing that as either alignment. He's scum for dropping a load all over the thread at every opportunity.

Vote Thor or Beefster.

[Mathdino]

Reads so far:

Nauci - This sort of self-consciousness is not the scummy kind. probtown.
Mathdino - usual levels of setup speculation. I'm going to stay far away from MD v Maria. Null for now.
Maria - waters muddied by MD v Maria.

Looking into brassherald.

This is not a reads list. This isn't even actual analysis.

brassherald is town for now. Nothing incriminating on him.

This literally makes no sense. Nothing incriminating? There was nothing incriminating on me or Maria either. There's no apparent method here to his reads.

I just realized there is an actual player named "UglyDuck". I assumed everyone was referring to tw due to his avatar. xD

Esp's posts are good. This is nothing like the way I saw him play in Jungle Republic when he was mafia. (or was he WW?)

Wow espetown what a hot take.

Good point. I should vote myself for that.

fluff

UNVOTE:
Since my vote was on Esp

Looking into duck now.

Yeah. There's nothing to go of for UglyDuck. I'm going to give it more time.

Shopping around for someone to vote instead of actually trying to gamesolve. He can't find anything "incriminating" on a player so he throws his hands up and looks elsewhere.
Also lol "I'm going to give it more time". For what? Duck to do something scummy?

Mathdino's posts strike me as IIOA mixed with lurkscum opportunism

VOTE: Mathdino

And this is literally just wrong. He's played with me twice now.
- I always start Opens with setup spec. I do tons of information FOLLOWED BY analysis.
- He thinks I'm LURKING? WAT.
- Opportunism? For what?

His posts are devoid of meaningful content, and the last time I played with town-Beefster, he self-L-1'd in LyLo saying he was gamethrowing, so I don't really mind a deadweight mislynch here.

[Mathdino]

I was thinking about that too actually. Try reading Masons and Monks. I replaced into D1 and immediately powerlynched scum-Beefster. Gut says he's acting similar but I'm not sure and that was a while ago.

Responding to your earlier thing directed at me in a second, i kinda skipped the spoilers

[Mathdino]

I am wary with how often Mathdino has appealed to meta. It's one thing to talk about meta with people one is experienced with (e.g. I had a good game with brass), or to cite a lot of examples from previous games. But I feel like there's a lot of uncited chatter about how someone is not playing their town/scum game without actually knowing their metas, and being able to sound both authoritative and tryhard, relying on other players in the game not caring to research themselves.

I don't know what he has read on the others like Thor, but I've only had one opportunity to be scum and that game last barely a day and a half, with my scum partner accidentally giving away the game almost immediately. I had a great day 1 that game which IMO sounded mostly like my town meta. Every other game I've played I've been town, so I concur with Thor that I don't understand these statements about my scum vs town range.

I've been on a serious meta kick for the past couple months or so trying to enhance that aspect of my towngame. My reads have gone slightly down in quality in general, but I'm getting back up I think.

That said (and I say this most of the time I use meta): I mostly use meta to nullify tells. Like if I'm townreading someone for something, I check their scumgames to see if that's fakable. If i'm scumreading someone, I check their towngames to see if it's NAI. The more I read, the more I can profile the player for what scum-them can fake, and what town-them is likely to do.

So when I townread you, I townread you independently of any meta. I then checked your scumgame to see if the elements I was feeling were present, and you felt different. So I kept my townread, on the basis that you've made arguments today that my profile of you suggests you just wouldn't as scum.

The fact that I'm right that you buddy people as town is proof of concept. I didn't check your towngames for buddying behaviour, because from your thought processes, it just seemed like a natural thing you would do (and probably as either alignment).

Sorting is about getting in people's heads. Meta just helps a little with that.

[Mathdino]

brass what exactly are your townreads in descending order

[Mathdino]

it feels like you've put yourself in a position to be able to scumread everyone, and a lot of the reasoning seems founded on more basic scumhunting principles than i'm used to from you

like i ultimately agree with a lot of your reads, but the way you've arrived at them feels off

idk we'll see where the day goes

[Mathdino]

Maria, even if he's town, he doesn't believe this.

He seems to be parroting an argument I made in a previous game with him to see if I'll make a similar argument again.

I'll repeat:
- I argued in Newbie 1856 that Tracker should claim D1.
- Thor argued "No, PRs claiming D1 is bad for dayplay and VCA".
- Thor is in this game arguing "Mathdino, why don't you want a PR to claim D1?"
- I argued "This is a different situation, that's stupid this game, and talking about this is stupid because I know you don't actually want that."

If you seriously think he's being genuine with that I really don't know what to tell you. The whole "surprise guys that was a reaction test" is incoming.

My problem is that it's a useless test and has created more noise than useful content. People are getting bogged down with it and hilariously, brass is blaming me for the continued unnecessary setup spec.

[Mathdino]

and i'm telling you it doesn't fucking matter

i'm already getting flak as a player for talking about setup spec too much. it's why i get it all over with in RVS

having an extra confirmed town on D1 doesn't substantially improve dayplay, it's at best +0 EV for town, and that's nowhere near a good enough advantage for me to actually push

i push things that i consider potentially breaking, not "oh i guess it wouldn't be bad if this happened"

this is not a useful conversation to be having. i don't know how you got the impression that i would choose to lie as scum in an open setup about correct PR play. i've said EVERYWHERE that i would never do that, because that's suicidal in an open setup when everyone else has the same amount of information i have

[Mathdino]

no i'm not doing this thor i'm sorry

you're asking me questions specifically to get me talking and talking nonstop about something that's just not useful

the opportunity cost of talking about this as opposed to actual fucking reads on people is massive

[Mathdino]

thor this literally boils down to "it's not an idea i had because it doesn't seem to actually help anything"

you're trying to crucify me for not coming up with an idea by myself that you know damn well that not only you would hate, and most of the playerlist would hate

i have played stack the deck before. i have modded stack the deck before. if i ever had the opinion that BG should claim D1, it would've come out by now.

it hasn't.

maybe it's not stupid, maybe it's just 0 EV for town. but it's stupid talking about it because it makes it all the more likely people will start dropping PR tells left and right

[Mathdino]

didn't i tell you maria has sub-random reads

thor, if he's scum, is muddying up the thread with bullshit
thor, if he's town, is reaction testing me based on an idiotic understanding of how town-mathdino thinks
which is clearly uninformed by any research given that i try to break the setup of basically every open game i play, and it's not hard to see how i come up with ideas
protectives claiming doesn't help at all, as a general rule
regardless

there's no universe in which thor actually thinks BG should claim
yet that's the universe maria lives in

[Mathdino]

Accusing him of saying bg claim is suicidal is a gross straw man.

oh yeah i'm ignoring those posts now

what i said is that lying about what good strategy is in open setups is suicidal, because everyone can see the setup with the same information i have

it's part of why i enjoy open setups, there's no "DOES SCUM HAVE INFORMATION THAT CAN FUCK US OVER HERE"

[Mathdino]

omfg
i'm not annoyed at you guys i'm annoyed at thor
this confusion should've been expected

thor's lack of clarification on this is annoying as shit
speaking from a town-thor POV

Thor thinks that town-Mathdino would enter the game arguing for a Bodyguard claim. He's interrogating me about why I wouldn't. Because I'm not giving him a straight answer, he believes I'm scum dodging the discussion of a strategy that town-Mathdino would usually consider optimal.

Thor does not believe the BG should claim. Thor thinks

I should believe the BG should claim

. Which I don't. Which is his issue.

[Mathdino]

VC1.5

Mathdino (2) (L-5):

Beefster, Thor665

Nauci (1) (L-6):

jmo16mla

brassherald (1) (L-6):

Nauci

Thor665 (4) (L-3):

Espeonage, Wisdom, Mathdino, Judge Joseph Dredd

Beefster (3) (L-4):

the worst, brassherald, MariaR

Not voting (1) :

UglyDuck

With 12 alive, 7 votes are needed to lynch.

@Mathdino: I have a request. Can you use your influence on a couple of players to get thor to L-1, please? I'm hoping you do catch my drift, but if not then just please do it for me.

Yeah, didn't see the votecount. I'm not all-in on Thor. But a lynch other than Thor/Beefster is obviously suboptimal for the day.

@Nauci:

Where are you planning on voting EoD? I agree brass is weird but I feel like brass is a super bad D1 lynch. He gets pretty obvtown as town later on.

@jmo:

Please do something.

JJD everyone other than the IC and my wagon is voting someone i'm scumreading
i have little motivation to end the day on thor right now, i wanna see this dueling wagon thing pan out

[Mathdino]

again.
thor.
i'm uninterested.
if you're town and you want to be wrong about me based on a single point that you think i would ALWAYS make as town
that's your damn fault, and i'm sorry you've gotten worse over time
i have so much else to talk about and so much else i HAVE talked about

and you want me to go wall vs wall with you on the one thing that annoys the majority of MS playerlists when i start ranting about it

i'm uninterested. back off. you're not lynching me today. talk to me about anything else.

[Mathdino]

- what the fuck?
wait what?
seriously WHAT?
literally the last time stack the deck was run (something i ran) the D1 bodyguard claim was just an awful idea
if you want to make that proposal, then go right the fuck ahead dude
but you're literally trying to interrogate me for not having come up with that idea?
are you kidding me?

THOR I SWEAR TO GOD

THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I ACKNOWLEDGED YOU TALKING ABOUT THE BODYGUARD

I WAS NOT CRITICISING YOU OR SCUMREADING YOU FOR CLAIMING "THE BODYGUARD SHOULD CLAIM". THAT IS NOT A SCUMMY THING TO SAY.

I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT YOU HAD AN ISSUE WITH ME *NOT* COMING UP WITH THAT IDEA. I'M SAYING THATS STUPID, BECAUSE I FOUND THAT IDEA TO BE STUPID, AND I DONT PROPOSE STUPID IDEAS.

WHEN YOU KEPT ARGUING IT WAS LIKE YOU WERE ARGUING YOURSELF INTO BELIEVING THE BG CLAIM WAS THE RIGHT IDEA. FOR A SECOND I THOUGHT YOU WERE GENUINELY ARGUING THAT

BUT THEN I WAS LIKE NO THATS FUCKING STUPID, THOR ARGUED ALL OF NEWBIE 1856 ABOUT WHY HAVING CONFTOWN IS BAD FOR DAYPLAY

SO I WAS LIKE

WOW LOOKS LIKE THORS JUST BEIN USELESS

ARE WE FUCKING DONE HERE

AND ARE YOU JUST NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT ANY OTHER PLAYERS OR BEEFSTER'S ACTUAL SCUMCLAIM ISO

[Mathdino]

Vote Thor or Beefster.

why is a beefster vote something youre equally happy about

have played with both beefster town and beefster scum

and total uselessness and crazy-ass voting patterns is something i expect more from beefster-scum

what in his ISO is town-indicative to you? i'm willing to be sold but beefster is a continual dumb-or-scum game with me

[Mathdino]

Thor665 (4) (L-3): Espeonage, Wisdom, Mathdino, Judge Joseph Dredd

this is a wagon of my 2 top townreads plus wisdom who is generally D1 unreadable to me

although i would call wisdom town on gut

[Mathdino]

Beefster (3) (L-4): the worst, brassherald, MariaR

ehhhhhh

this is a wagon of a nulltownread at best (sorry duckling you beat me as scum so), a light scumread, and someone i don't know how to read whose reads i do not trust

so with that in mind i definitely prefer thor

[Mathdino]

i think it's a bad idea for us to get too divided on who thor's partners are or whether scum is bussing on this wagon

i'm townreading espeonage independently, pretty hard

i can see 2 wagons on scum, i've seen that happen

although you're right voteparking one player who's not getting lynched is pretty bad for a scumteam

i'm going with thor/brass right now tbh

[Mathdino]

go ahead and put thor at L-1 then

does it look like their reasons for voting me are good

also recall that i stated issues with both thor and beefster before they voted me sooooooOOOOOO

[Mathdino]

Is this a scumslip?

comedy gold

The answer is always no with the exception of
1. Trying and failing to self hammer as scum
2. PoEing yourself out of possible scumreads in endgame

On d1 the answer is always no

[Mathdino]

@Math - you legit don't think a scumbuddy would be bussing me at this stage? I'll generically agree that's poor scum play, but at the same time your case on me has me doing atrocious scum play, so why not expect the same from my buddy?

This is horrible levels of WIFOM and I'm not participating in this

I have no incentive to answer your self-defense-deflected-onto-Mathdino questions tbh

[Mathdino]

I didn't have as much confidence in my argument last game considering I literally fakeclaimed PR to draw a cc

[Mathdino]

Brass I'm not reading into your effort, just your methodology/reasoning

You've clearly put as much effort into this game as usual

[Mathdino]

You literally come across scared to engage me, and distancing from past statements when I back you into corners, while all your posts not interacting directly with me ooze confidence.

If you're town, then shit like this is further proof you have 0 idea how to read my motivation, thought processes, emotions, etc, and you're wasting 75% of your ISO talking to someone who not only doesn't wanna talk
But who the majority of the rest of the game wants to stop from talking about setup spec

So why the fuck SHOULD I engage with you in this shit
It's predatory questioning

[Mathdino]

Like I have 2 other scumreads I'm ready to go on
You're spending all your time walling up the thread on this one topic
You have no interest in working with me

Edit: scumlean, getting different feels from your thought processes

[Mathdino]

btw math, looks like you were wrong
scum had a rolecop so far and I doubt thats the end of it
just getting a rolecop when it adds a role to deal with feels silly

I was just thinking about this

Potentially says things about the other original partner

Traitor is a trickier problem

Lemme go reread d1

[Mathdino]

Yeah exactly
I can't imagine what they chose given rolecop tho

[Mathdino]

Vca heavily suggests scum in brass, duck, MariaR yeah

Still never lynching Nauci, that shit was townier than jmo

Also sidenote I correctly townread her team mafia tiebreaker when my team didn't so lol suck it my team

[Mathdino]

Oh yeah I also have a tell on Nauci shhhhhh
If you guys lynch her after I die imma be mad
Like seriously people keep killing me and lynching my townreads

[Mathdino]

Vca heavily suggests scum in brass, duck, MariaR yeah

wait fuck

i meant "duck" as in "the worst" whose avatar is a duck

not uglyduck who i forgot was in the game lol

basically these 3 were the ones who piled onto thor from beefster after i started campaigning for thor

[Mathdino]

esp i can't see math scum, sell me?

He's third vote on the wagon and was being dumb. Then instead of arguing with me he went yep I'm dumb I'm sorry I'll do better I promise.

Scum roll over.

stop tunneling my towngame, you live in an outdated site meta
i didn't "roll over", i just didn't give a shit about interacting with you all that much because i hard townread your catchup
also there is no way you can read my responses to you shitting on my playstyle as rolling over and promising to do better

MariaR is probs the third scum from wagon and NK analysis. No way all three scum are on that wagon. Thor was being stupid and when town is stupid scum get antsy about being on the low hanging wagon.

NK comes in to is because it means no one was on to something hard that was accurate enough to deter them from killing the (iirc) incredibly dense IC. Also that end of day softy softy bus is badstuffs.

nk analysis is stupid here, idk who doesnt kill the conftown

espeonage already answered it but yeah, a few next-levelly players don't kill the conftown
this likely clears espeonage from being the killer

Probs. Who was the one that brought up that I pushed Thor and I was scum last time i got Thor lynched? Bc I remember reading that and thinking it was garbage bc Thor was scum and we were opposing factions. And I left him alive because pushing him would potentially give me away.

Whoever that was might be scum.

do not remember this point being brought up

also hypoclaim goon cop/tracker inno on JJD

[Mathdino]

OK, I think I want to eat the NK tonight, so here's my scum team:
Thor + Maria + Espeonage

Beef + Thor doesn't make sense to me at all. However, Espeonage voting Thor does. Why? because I love to do those meta dives (much like Mathdino does) when I have he time, and in this game Espeonage tunneled his teammate relentlessly until he got him lynched. (Thor was on the other scum team, btw). Mafia won because of that particular gambit.

that point was made by JJD apparently

[Mathdino]

like, i could see math v maria being math's way to tell Maria hes the traitor

obviously not seeing it

but also keep in mind that your chances of finding the traitor by traitorhunting are minimal

same with "trying to find beefster's partner" unless there's some rock solid PoE going on

best bet is just finding anyone who knew beefster was scum

i was the first one to point out that his vote on me was a scumclaim (which it was) but idk if that means anything being that we lynched thor instead

regardless

if anyone has experience in reading maria and she flips scum, happy to (claim if i'm a PR)(fall on the sword if i'm a VT)

[Mathdino]

like, math's setup posts and stuff did not feel like someone with knowledge about what choices scum made and such, which is one of the reasons he felt town to me

but traitor works

do not understand traitorhunting sometimes

when i ran this it was essentially lost by everyone assuming that the nightplay only made sense if a certain someone was the traitor

but no, scum only chose recruit traitor

specifically traitorhunting is just not a historically good idea

(and yes, that's true even if it's not on me)

[Mathdino]

brass actually looks a little better for trying to lynch beef over thor

yeah this is largely correct

gonna go see if i can dig up anything on brassherald scumbuddy associative meta hang on

[Mathdino]

501: Nothing
520: Daytalk + Rolecop
530: Daytalk + JOAT
539: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
548: Nothing
557: Rolecop + JOAT
574: Daytalk + Rolecop (I played this!)(I also am one of few people with access to this mafia PT, which has still not been archived after 4 years)
582: Recruit + Rolecop (I won this!)
594: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
622: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
644: Nothing
651: Recruit + Rolecop + Bulletproof
663: Rolecop
684: Rolecop + JOAT
711: Recruit (I modded this!)

JJD brings up an excellent point
also i'd point out that 50% of scumteams with rolecops also chose to recruit the traitor
it's essentially the maximum information team

brassherald meta comes back, can confirm he did not interact with beefster like he knew beefster was scum

town: JJD, Nauci, Espeonage

[Mathdino]

town: JJD, Nauci, Espeonage, brassherald

lol i forgot someone

so i actually think the worst could very well be scum here

[Mathdino]

here's a spicy vote

VOTE: the worst

seemed to know both me and wisdom were town, didn't comment on beefster much until i started shitting on 206
the worst was resistant to bussing last time i played with scumhim, likely overcompensated

ctrl+F "math" and "beef"

[Mathdino]

brassherald is town for now. Nothing incriminating on him.

This interests me. Does nothing incriminating usually make someone temporarily town?

have some spicy scum-scum interaction

he's actually helping beefster articulate his thoughts better

[Mathdino]

How often does scum just pick nothing or pick only daytalk? I recall someone in the last game was talking about taking the two goon buffs to nullify GC which was interesting. Leaning on better setup specers than me as to whether this would actually work/whether people are likely to come up with it.

Last Stack the Deck Creature/Jay slot would have been a great d1 lynch until that damn claim. IC feels like an exceptionally good roll in this setup.

and this is fucking weird and is his only comment on the setup speccing

worst-scum works very well with brass-town as well, should also clear wisdom-town but don't quote me on that

final partner can be in {Maria, UglyDuck)

[Mathdino]

his beef vote was the first vote on beef, and right after you and me expressed our dislike for beef's vote on you

that doesnt sound like anti-bussing

no that's my point

the last game i played with him when he was scum, he was slightly resistant to bussing

we lynched 2 scum in a row and his reaction was basically "ahhh i'm sorry i should've sheeped you harder math"

i think the pendulum swings back the other way; he's been buddying me most of this game (without locktowning me) and voted beefster when it was clear you and i were about to go after him

[Mathdino]

brassherald is town for now. Nothing incriminating on him.

This interests me. Does nothing incriminating usually make someone temporarily town?

Jesus I missed 206 VOTE: Beefster

What do you think of Wisdom brass and Thor?

Will answer after work
Why those 3 names and not my vote itself

Next 3 people I'm going to think about

That vote isn't as interesting to talk about imo. If you do have some interesting thoughts about Beef share em!

I hadn't processed it properly yet, Esp's entrance to the day kinda distracted me.

Good point about Beef and Ugly. I'll probably move Ugly to a townlean on that basis. Their d1 content was fine just a bit lacking, and.....PoE

brass/Maria is pretty believable I guess. Eyeroll'd @ brass' good morning nakedvote.

all mentions of beef in the worst's ISO

that quote i provided was his only direct interaction with beef

[Mathdino]

i mean if it's not espe
and it's not duck
and it's not nauci or brass

and if you disagree with me on TW

then we're swiftly approaching a math vs wisdom paranoia/PoE 1v1 here

show me your current gamesolve

[Mathdino]

I just realized there is an actual player named "UglyDuck". I assumed everyone was referring to tw due to his avatar. xD

ugly is probably not scum because of this

Talk to me

[Mathdino]

VOTE: UglyDuck

Glad you could see it my way.

Btw, Scum shooting the IC while knowing there's at least one additional PR aside form the IC and BG wreaks of noob scum who are playing it safe. Based on that I say Wisdom certainly didn't make that kill and I doubt Math would have done it either.

i mean i can 100% tell you if i was PR hunting as scum i would've shot someone i thought was a PR over the IC

but my scum philosophy is in fact to kill conftown

espeonage had a lot of fun mocking me for that in RC's large

i agree with this only for espeonage, not necessarily for wisdom (who might kill the IC so as to deny NKA)

[Mathdino]

for someone who acts holier-than-thou in terms of playstyle/strategy ingames

i don't think you understand what a scumslip is my friend

i also still have no idea what the fuck you think you were looking at when you interpreted my response to you D1 as "rolling over" and apologising

[Mathdino]

math

was

pretty quick to townread ugly off his readlist

Which reads list

[Mathdino]

Also to say I'm jaded about being a vt would be a gross understatement.

What the fuck are you doing

Your play this game has been solidly more pro scum than most scum fuck off espe

[Mathdino]

Mathdino - Town read for now. Maria thing pending. I am actually assuming if one flips skum they are both skum - argument seemed almost staged tbh. Outside of that one bit, the rest of his play seems null-towny.

This rarely if ever comes from scum

Gamesolvy/nuanced shit, this point is basically unnecessary for scum agenda

I could really only see him scum with Maria tbh

[Mathdino]

Actually I could definitely see him as scum with Maria, this is a classic associative tell

Are we gonna have to flip Maria here just because no one can read her for shit

[Mathdino]

The scumslip is calling an absolute that isn't true then chasing it because you know it isn't true.

I can't even parse this sentence

What I said was

1. The original partner chose rolecop. That rules people out for original partner.

2. The traitor didn't get to choose, so the flip says nothing there (although a traitor flip would narrow the game)

[Mathdino]

How sure are we that there was scum offwagon

What does scum lolhammer usually imply about wagon composition

Reviewing the eod vc I agree that it's likely Maria offwagon if anyone

[Mathdino]

I think the worst makes the IC kill tbh
Not sure Maria does

[Mathdino]

there seem to be 4 different conflicting theories on how i make sense as traitor

is anyone planning on explaining this shit or what

[Mathdino]

is anyone actually trying to read me

did i play/talk like i knew beefster was scum

[Mathdino]

sure
you even called one of his posts a scumclaim

are you interested at all in why i called that a scumclaim though

[Mathdino]

Also Dino busses are planned and organized with the bussed partner. Do you think Dino instructed Beef to do that hammer if they had daychat?

i think dino is the traitor, so no chat whatsoever

i don't bus without clearance, JJD is correct

that said

i can tell you exactly what my thought process was behind calling that vote a scumclaim

[Mathdino]

wisdom check this out

Subject: Open 709: Masons and Monks (Game Over)

Honestly I'd be pretty cool with speedlynching in this setup. I have a strong suspicion that the longer the day goes on, the more scumsided it'll eventually get. Masons and monks are gonna get pretty obvious over time. Plus, ideal strategy is for mafia and wolves to shoot town (and not destroy each other). I'd rather not give them more time to figure out the entire setup.

So yeah let's speedlynch Beefster.

I don't follow this line of reasoning. The scumteams already have a pretty low chance of killing the other scum if done completely randomly. I don't really see how a short day makes things any different.

The way to win is to get 4 correct lynches in a row. Short days do not help achieve that.

VOTE: Mathdino
OMGUS, but I don't care.

^ Beefster was scum. I powerlynched him D1 partially off gut.

Beefster-scum doesn't fencesit on a read on me. I think he would either townread me to get me off his back or explicitly go after me in a gambit.

This is based on some unsubstantiated notion of what a player would do after being powerlynched by another player (I got Beefster-scum early D1 in another game).

Regardless, the level of nuance in Beefster's read on me (Hmmm IB is scummy but so is Math, but tbh IB is scummier which probably makes Math town) is unlike scum-him.

^Beefster was town in this game.

I have a good track record of reading Beefster specifically in relation to his stance on me. His vote on me at that point in the game was 100% a scumclaim. I would've explained all that but
- no one asked
- Thor was taking a massive dump all over the thread

Point is, Beefster-town never votes me at that point with that reasoning. I knew that off experience, not alignment knowledge.

[Mathdino]

OK.. riddle me this: Why would scum!Dino say he would shoot the conf!Town when I had offered him a carte blanche off that NK already?

stop defending me off WIFOMy things

fundamentally i'm just playing my towngame here

and having a correct read on beefster and then powerlynching a supposedly good player with a scumread on me is in no way indicative of alignment knowledge

[Mathdino]

unrecruited traitor really only makes sense if:

- Beefster thought he knew who the traitor was

- Beefster just didn't give a shit about lolhammering the traitor because of the towncred

all the buzz from the town was that thor was playing his scumgame though so i feel like beefster would at least consider that thor was super traitory

Edit: Thor was being more anti-town than Beefster. I got riled up (and was sheeping Espeonage's claimed meta knowledge). Beefster, to me, was a much easier lynch down the line than Thor.

[Mathdino]

Thor is scum. This is thor's scum game. Thor is setting up fake arguments to get himself involved in a discussion that people will ultimately not want to take a side on. He needs to go EARLY or he will just systematically kill everyone that will oppose him.

Lynch the fuck out of Thor

this is basically the post that convinced me

[Mathdino]

the fact that he was spending the entirety of his D1 tunneling me and shitting on me for not actively pushing the bodyguard to claim

meant thor was solidly in policy lynch territory

i didn't want to deal with that D2

thor is not a good player nowadays

[Mathdino]

Vote Thor or Beefster.

why is a beefster vote something youre equally happy about

have played with both beefster town and beefster scum

and total uselessness and crazy-ass voting patterns is something i expect more from beefster-scum

what in his ISO is town-indicative to you? i'm willing to be sold but beefster is a continual dumb-or-scum game with me

I LITERALLY ANSWERED WITH THIS

[Mathdino]

holy balls i'm going to be retaliatorily wagoned for my PoE reads aren't i

[Mathdino]

i will admit that i am retroactively embellishing my certainty just because i'm now confirmed to have been right

i'm never 100% certain on things

but i have an unfortunate track record of not lynching scumclaims because i'm distracted by people acting anti-town/scummy and hardtunneling me to the exception of anything else

also why i mislynched town-beefster in that same game i mentioned

[Mathdino]

ughhhhhh

i'm confbiasing him post-flip because i was right

i'm trying to prove to you that my meta knowledge meant town-me is highly HIGHLY more likely to be accurate about beefster

i turned that into me saying "i was 100% certain" when really i mean "the scumclaim was actually a scumclaim, i was right and had good reasons to be right"

[Mathdino]

I would've explained all that but
- no one asked

you said you would have explained
ie you admit you didnt
dont try to turn this around now

no one asked about the specific meta knowledge i have on beefster

also lowkey i forgot that you asked and i answered at all

[Mathdino]

dear god fuck me up

you're literally trying to lynch me off the niche scenario in which i was an unrecruited traitor and tried to signal i was a traitor by calling beefster's vote a scumclaim

when town-me has very good reason to believe beefster's vote on me is a scumclaim, AND BEEFSTER WOULD KNOW THAT

like there's no reason for beefster to believe i'm a traitor in that situation because town-me responds exactly that way

traitor-me probably just calls it a shit vote or some shit and continues with thor/brass

like what the fuck do you think my traitor strategy was yesterday

[Mathdino]

SO WHAT THE FUCK WAS MY STRATEGY THEN

BE 100% SURE ON BEEFSTER BUT PRETEND LIKE I WAS SIGNIFICANTLY LESS SURE?

[Mathdino]

are you even scumreading me for anything else other than that my play could theoretically be explained by me knowing beefster was scum?

you can argue all day why my play is consistent with "math is an unrecruited traitor" (and again fucking lol at how you're wagoning me for being unrecruited and espe is scumreading for being recruited)

you have in no way shown how my play is INconsistent with town-me though
which is the actual point of a scumread

like so far you've got "math doesn't lynch thor over beef" to which i've responded
- i was convinced that thor would be harder to lynch down the line
- i have a clear track record of getting distracted by LITERAL SCUMCLAIMS due to people shitting up the thread

[Mathdino]

you're also making vague statements about what town-me would do

based on what meta? our game from 2014?

[Mathdino]

Town-you who were so certain about beef doesnt lynch

a good player like thor

like what the actual fuck is this

how can you possibly think town-me sits down and thinks thor is a good player and thus decides he's a bad D1 lynch when

- espeonage has confidently said thor is playing his scumgame, TO WHICH I FUCKING AGREED HAVING CAUGHT THOR BEFORE

- thor was deathtunneling me and saying things that would 100% lead to people dropping PR tells and i just wanted it to fucking stop

thor's reads were trash this game

PLUS
PLUS
IVE TRIED TO D1 WAGON HIM BEFORE

[Mathdino]

"you cant prove im scum so im not"

-math

no, i'm saying that good scumreads come from "this player is playing inconsistently with how they would play as town"

not from "oh well it's possible this is consistent with their towngame"

those are difficult to produce which is why i've had more good townreads than good scumreads this game

JJD is playing inconsistently with his scumgame
nauci i have a tell on (also i can prove that i actually metadived nauci for the purposes of this game, and correctly HARD townread her for team mafia tiebreakers during N1 based partially on the meta research i'd already done for this game)
brassherald is playing inconsistently with how he would interact with his buddies as scum
etc

there are significantly more reasons as to why i'm inconsistent with how i'd play as a traitor
and 0 reasons as to why i'm inconsistent with my towngame

the "math doesn't bus of scumread without clearance/communication" is a major element there

[Mathdino]

like espe's case literally makes more sense because it at least presumes that i rolled scum with beefster and was like "LOLBEEFSTER" and planned to drop him

gladiating a weakass scumpartner like beefster

with a "strong" town player like thor (strong from scum-me's perspective because it means he was right on me)
who could've
- towned it up hard by not being dumb about the BG claim
- claimed PR, because in retrospect he was dropping the BG tell all over the place AND I DIDNT NOTICE BECAUSE I AM TOWN
ends in a beefster lynch
like that day should've ended in a beef lynch

this is not how i play scum
i am on record for saying that elsewhere as well

[Mathdino]

IT MAKES MORE SENSE THAN ME BUSSING HIM UNANNOUNCED

[Mathdino]

micro 769
jester nightless
anything upick
mkultra
3 in 1 pt 2
3 in 1 pt 3
^all my scum threads since coming back from hiatus

and another thing
Subject: Open 709: Masons and Monks (Game Over)

How did I pre-plan the game when I wasn't even here to do so?

I hate to pull the self-meta card but both times I rolled scum with people in micros I tried my hardest to clear the bus with them beforehand so I don't become the asshole. I don't like losing to bad moves.

Now imagine the scenario in which I powerbus Beefster (trying my damnedest to actually get him lynched) without clearing it at ALL with him, and then get shot that night by mafia for being good and town leadering.

That reflects absolutely horribly on me and would be an asshole move to Beefster to just replace into his scumgame and completely fuck him over.

Anyone can use the "Math is still alive" argument all they want but is it conceivable that I expected to survive both these nights playing the way I did, and nailing Kotoko the way I did?

[Mathdino]

you trying to defend yourself is not helping you
i dont give a shit about selfmeta

there's a difference between self meta and "I am legitimately offended that you think i would bus my buddies without discussing it at all beforehand"

it's a matter of principle

[Mathdino]

Thor is scum. This is thor's scum game. Thor is setting up fake arguments to get himself involved in a discussion that people will ultimately not want to take a side on. He needs to go EARLY or he will just systematically kill everyone that will oppose him.

Lynch the fuck out of Thor

this is basically the post that convinced me

Thank you. I am too lazy to go back and research what made me link X to Y and rule out them being scum with Z, so you doing it for me is really appreciated.

THIS is one of the main reasons I put Espeo as possible Scum if Beef was scum and Thor was Town. I had ruled him out as Scum of Thor flipped scum.

Now look at it in the light of the flips and the NK choice and reread his posts of today and you would see why I very much disagree with anyone who says Espeo has Town told. In fact, he just recemtly said he would not vote UD for the rest of the game, so Espeo+UD+Beef makes sense to me.

i'm still on TW
convince me it's not TW and PoE leads me to dig into espe/wis i think
i probably get run up before either of those happen but w/e

[Mathdino]

ironically
the main way i could see wisdom or espeonage as scum is if they're an unrecruited traitor
however
because i am not playing like shit
i am uninterested in assuming what scum did (since they already played unexpectedly) in order to traitorhunt based off partially inaccurate assumptions

if Group A of players can be both traitor and groupscum
and Group B of players can ONLY be traitor
it's actually idiotic to lynch in group B

and that's why town fucking lost last game

[Mathdino]

also what do you mean about the nk choice? didnt you say esp wouldnt shoot the ic?

precisely why espeonage only makes sense as traitor

[Mathdino]

espeonage never makes that kill, JJD

also i need you to trust the nauci towntell, it worked for team mafia tiebreakers

i need more options

[Mathdino]

JJD btw is someone i would put in a strange Group C box of people that only make sense as groupscum

in that scenario picking the rolecop and orchestrating beefster's death would be a super WIFOM move to clear JJD as town

wouldn't be at all surprised if, in that scenario, JJD also picked mafia JOAT or some shit to further fuck things up

[Mathdino]

To my understanding (and Dino can correct me if I'm misunderstanding), Dino thinks the best way to go for scum is to not pick any additional abilities. If they think daychat will help they can pick that and only that, So 50% probability to pick daychat only and 50% to pick nothing is what I'd expect from Mathdino.

meh i wouldn't pick daytalk with beefster

here's a much better clue though

given the opportunity, i've never NOT shot a PR as scum

i'm currently one of the single best PR hunters on the site (to the point where that's basically my primary skill as scum because i'm weaker in dayplay)

role cop would be the one power role i would feel that i'd never need, and would rather just have claimspace so i could breadcrumb and fakeclaim a PR

[Mathdino]

stay tuned for my upcoming article on PR hunting and why people are bad at not spewing their roles

[Mathdino]

in that scenario picking the rolecop and orchestrating beefster's death would be a super WIFOM move to clear JJD as town

except jjd solidly pushed thor over beef

you're misinterpreting me

i don't mean to say that JJD in that scenario would want to lynch beefster immediately

but that JJD would want to ensure that beefster dies before JJD

beefster claimed scum by lolhammering, and that ensured beefster's death

that said scum in that situation would still prefer a town lynch to beefster lynch

[Mathdino]

JJD btw is someone i would put in a strange Group C box of people that only make sense as groupscum

in that scenario picking the rolecop and orchestrating beefster's death would be a super WIFOM move to clear JJD as town

wouldn't be at all surprised if, in that scenario, JJD also picked mafia JOAT or some shit to further fuck things up

No comment. *Sigh*

think of that paranoia as a sign of respect

it would be a crazy plan and if that's actually the cause i would applaud it

[Mathdino]

i'm gonna go do a dive on mariaR nightkills

the worst absolutely shoots the IC too though

it's one of the ducks probs

Edit: eyyyyyyy i'm on it

[Mathdino]

@Dino: Are you scum, mate? I'm pretty much weirded out by you 2nd guessing me here.

I also am not happy with us 3 going round and round in circles with everybody else sitting on the sidelines. I want everybody to come say their piece and get interrogated.

you were talking about who chooses role cop and i was like yeah sure i agree *nodding*

and then my mind came up with the most hilariously brutal plan that scum-you could come up with (that obviously only works if you're not the traitor) that specifically gets me to clear you as town due to beefster scumclaiming in thread twice

i'm surprised you're not like "wow yes that plan would be amazing if i were scum"

but i still concede that you are out of your likely scumrange and it's still idiotic to lynch anyone that can ONLY be a traitor or that can ONLY be groupscum

[Mathdino]

Btw, did you guys read the competition tiebreaker? I laughed at GiF's gambit. I loved it. Just saying.

yeah i locked sobolev space and nauci as town and then NSG was like "nah space is so scum" and hard disagreed with me about nauci

that's honestly my conftown trump card this game because like i said i only knew nauci was town in the tiebreaker because i had already did basic meta on her in this game (i have receipts and dw i did not talk about ongoing games)

over the course of tiebreakers i found a major major towntell on nauci though
and if this game goes like others, i'm going to be killed/lynched and nauci is gonna get put back into the lynchpool afterward and i'm gonna get super annoyed in the dead thread
so uh
trust me thanks

[Mathdino]

So, I was in court the whole morning for a stupid case I'm handling and just sat down to eat lunch.

I am wondering about one thing as I catch up, put food down my gullet, and process information. I see a bunch of stuff about speculation as to whom the traitor is. I've never played with a traitor in the past. How do you differentiate between normal scum and traitor scum in your scum hunting?

Ehhhh. In this setup, the simple answer is "you don't" because we're not totally sure there is an unrecruited traitor.

Original scum: They knew Beefster was scum, Beefster knew they were scum. They helped decide the initial "stack" and they helped decide who to kill last night.

Unrecruited traitor: They knew Beefster was scum, Beefster did NOT know they were scum (so Beefster might've treated them like town). They did not help decide the "stack" and they did not perform the nightkill.
*Occasionally traitors will try to signal to their team that they're the traitor by implying they know who the scumteam is.

Recruited traitor: They knew Beefster was scum, Beefster knew they were scum. They did NOT help decide the initial "stack" and but they DID help decide who to kill last night.

basically traitor associatives only work one way
that said traitors usually play as they would as groupscum anyway
this hunting is mainly for associatives and setup spec

[Mathdino]

And no, that wouldn't be my plan as scum because I believe in numbers. I do not want to lose one third of my scum team this early into the game, but that's me meta'ing myself so it's a no go.

P-edit: GOOD! Nice of you to reassure me you're town here. Now if I'm to trust your read on Nauci then Ugly Duck is scum 100% of the time. and Espeo is like 67% their third.

way to kill my dreams
sometimes i just wanna see crazy plans like that actually happen
so i can beat them

but yeah that's fair

you haven't done much of anything to show why TW and maria are town though

i need to go through them before i dig into espeonage/wisdom

[Mathdino]

@Brass: everyone knows i'm not groupscum. the question at hand is basically whether i'm specifically a mafia traitor

i just

what i can't fucking wrap my head around

is that beefster knows making a shit vote like that on me is basically suicide. i caught him as scum literally the last time he did it

so beefster was clearly the fall guy for the team if there was one

[Mathdino]

@Brass: everyone knows i'm not groupscum. the question at hand is basically whether i'm specifically a mafia traitor

i just

what i can't fucking wrap my head around

is that beefster knows making a shit vote like that on me is basically suicide. i caught him as scum literally the last time he did it

so beefster was clearly the fall guy for the team if there was one

Then why did you push Thor so hard after that vote from Beef?

(Like, seriously logging off right after hitting submit, I leave work in 3 hours if I finish this motion and I want to do that, see you all in 4ish adding time for commute.)

i mean i've already talked about this

- thor was being more anti-town than scum
- thor was spending 90% of his posts deathtunneling me because "Mathdino pushes the bodyguard to claim as town" and "Mathdino refuses to answer questions about this conversation" which is idiotic and i assumed town-Thor is always better than this
- thor-scum is a difficult lynch while beefsscum is not, and i was fine with a thor/beefster team anyway (less fine when i realised that was dumb by VCA but w/e). beefster is also viggable while thor is very much not

i have a tendency to get distracted by people who i feel should know better

and you remember our game with thor; he reminded me very very very strongly of that game and i felt like to thor-scum i was the correct person to remove early as a result of that

[Mathdino]

glad you're back

In addition, I'm willing to bet that the rolecop came with recruit or daychat.
[...]
I'm actually willing to bet that if there's a RC, they picked all 3 bonuses, but at least 2. I'm also surprised how long it took for people to start setup speccing on those flips.

i disagree with this and the data shows that many scumteams do just pick a role cop or just a role cop and one other role
rolecop+daychat seems not overly useful, i'd say rolecop+recruit has more equity

I think this plausibly narrows down the pool of OG scum possibilities.

correct
ugh this makes me second guess my TW read though

tryna get me killed or somethin brah?

sorry
people keep lynching my townreads after i die and it's just upsetting
because people think my reads don't mean shit because my scumreads were wrong
but my scumreads are basically a little bit better than randomly lynching in my PoE pool
while my strong townreads are nearly 100% correct (credit to the worst for beating me last game but also you had 4 scum with a gladiator in 13p so screw you)
and my "neverlynch ever ever" reads are 100% correct

o_o what's my tell

when I first started playing mafia (on a forum of people who've known me for years though) I used to get mislynched all the damn time

I guess I'm doing better!
[...]
Seriously I'm going to get so annoyed if you keep posting about this "tell" thing

So either explain it or stop

on an emotional level i can understand why people get annoyed when i find towntells on them because it makes them easily readable and people hate being easily readable
i don't like outing tells, especially on players i consider to be good up-and-coming players; helps a LOT when i can lock reads on people i've met before
but yeah i'll stop talking about it as long as people agree to treat you essentially as an innocent child

and anyone who didn't TR sobolev is bad at reads holy shit

I almost claimed doctor to try and eat an NK that one night. Thank fuck I decided against it

i hard TR'd her off her first 3 posts tbh
it's just different when you're not playing the game personally interacting though
much harder.

I feel like you wouldn't normally ask a question with answers this obvious.

meh disagree, that seems pretty standard earnest brassherald to me
he was once super overwhelmingly obvtown in a game and then was like "wait so why was i even obvtown" postgame, which i honestly considered a bit of an obvious question lol

i'm locking brass out of scumpool due to associatives in his ISO (and the lack of bus history he has as scum), do you disagree?

[Mathdino]

@Dino I didn't mean you were trying to get me lynched. I meant your NAUCI BASICALLY IC shit is going to get me shot bruh. If you angled any harder on it I'd think you were the traitor pointing your goon at me.

I change my mind on the brass question. Reread the newbie game we were in and he was constantly asking for elaborate explanations and overthinking simple stuff like this. I just hate all these dodgy I'M TOO BUSY TO POST posts and am used to seeing more substance from him

Also, I'ma need you to link some games where you corrected rooted out TPR.

- i get that. w/e. i mean you being obvtown is obviously the thing that gets you shot but if i were scum i wouldn't have to locktown you at all, and so you wouldn't be a necessary shoot
i expect to be NK'd much more than i expect you to be

- he's busy IRL, check his site activity.

- sure. i linked my scum threads earlier
hope plus one: the scumchat was totally deleted, which is sad, because i found all 3 TPRs, shot two, and had one of our scumteam counterclaim the third (we pushed the lynch through). pretty proud of that game
pick your chocolate power: i was actually town in this game, but finding all the PRs was important to gamesolving, and i had a neighbourhood to do so (being in a PT helps a LOT with PR hunting just because i think by talking). i figured out someone was a N3 vig and locktowned them openly; they couldn't believe i could be so sure of them being town so they shot me -_-
micro 769: shot the jailkeeper N1 off gut. i was wrong about the second PR but they got mislynched D2 anyway so w/e
three in one part 2: shot the doctor, figured out who the cop was (i admittedly waffled on this), and fakeclaimed a guilty on the cop to win on D2.

then there's anything upick but that was role madness and EVERYONE was a PR so i just shot
N1. someone who was annoying me
N2. the innocent child
and after that everyone had basically claimed anyway

there's also inventions mafia from team mafia where i coached the nightkills, but i had no idea PRs even existed (thought it was all vanilla), and had i known i probably would've actually given a shit about ISOing people to PR hunt.

so yeah i have essentially a 100% record of shooting PRs in games that even have them

meanwhile i have a hilariously strong tendency as town of scumreading scum + every single PR lately
so when thor flipped i was like wow gj mathdino there's another one
and kinda facepalmed because in retrospect i should've caught that he was a bodyguard since he dropped the exact same tell that led me to shoot the doctor in 3 in 1

i'm in the process of writing an article about PR/VT tells but i don't wanna talk about it too much because that might make it related to this ongoing game or some shit

[Mathdino]

btw since math isnt doing it

This is uglyduck's completed town game and I see a different person there

i'll get to that

more interested in mariaR right now

some people find her easily readable but i don't so it would be good to learn something about her scumgame

[Mathdino]

maria is a traitor if shes scum
you said lynching traitors is not a priority
so why is maria more interesting right now

this is the first i've heard of it

explain?

[Mathdino]

Lol I have to say I asked because how did you not see BG!Thor coming

I was egging on the wagon just to see who bit but thought he was like Sky_Paladin round 2

I gotta wonder if beef was trying to hide something with the lolhammer or just thought he was toast and could at least make it to day 2 this way

because i'm absolutely fucking blind to PR play when i'm town and when i'm not actively thinking about it

and the thing is, if i actively think about it, i'll start saying stupid shit like "UHH YEAH THOR IS TOWN BECAUSE REASONS" and then it just makes it obvious i think they're a PR and it gets them shot. (seeing people say this makes things a lot easier for scum)

like, in open 714, my scumpool D1 was literally {the vig, the jailkeeper, the backup rolecop, 1 scum}
and in three in one part 1 my scumpool was {1 scum, the cop, the doc}

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Mathdino]

beefster giving up isn't exactly news

he probably made the right call with the lolhammer but he probably wasn't thinking about getting vigged

[Mathdino]

i'm not seein it
she didn't really hardpush beefster like i've seen her hardpush other people

it almost seemed more of a protest vote to thor

yknow, the standard "scum staying offwagon" play

Edit: yeah that's the thing i'm looking for

[Mathdino]

no sell on the uglyduck meta, sorry wisdom

he has no completed scumgames to compare to

2) Here is the comment everyone will ignore - I have had a hell of a week at work. I am here. Not caught up. Literally sitting at the desk doing it now. Sorry for absence.

occam's razor is that he's actually just busy IRL

like, brass is playing against his town meta, but he's also clearly busy IRL so that doesn't make him scum at all

[Mathdino]

nauci post the writeup anyway?

[Mathdino]

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW

what does scum tw look like?

he looks like town

that's the problem. he can be motivation-read but he also knows i know that since i've gone over his scumgames with him

[Mathdino]

he's VERY good at replicating his town meta

i don't intend to fall for the trap of metaing him again

from his scumgame:

Regardless of alignment I tend to get lazy around power players. But I'd say I play a more tryhard scum game, and definitely a lazier town game if I can get away with it. It's largely not intentional, there's just big battles of personalities which I don't really have the energy to get involved in.

As scum I loathe bussing and try to consider my partner/s as remote possibilities at best. The biggest tell I can see from myself is that I try to adjust my style to suit apparent PRs and conftown as scum while as town, I tend to totally disregard their asses and try to work with "obvtown" or sort "probtown" players

Also. Low key I abhor drawing scum but it happens to me a lot. xD (2:2 finished games on MS and I'm almost policy lynch in a Discord server I play in sometimes because of how often I'm evil)

Lowlight of my year so far: trying to explain my scumgame without softclaiming scum with Not_Mafia

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Math lmfao still at page 20

D1 paranoia here was this is the first time Math hasn't tried to read me by like page 3. I was trying to work out if he had me pinned for a future mislynch but afrer one post (I'll find it if ppl want)

I figured he was just being cautious bc he's underestimated my scum range before.

Lukewarm associatives and WIFOM about how scum!tw would play with town!math after our last game noice

welcome back

- i've literally played 2 games with you? the first time i replaced in and read you by VCA in my first posts. the second time, yeah, i'd seen 2 of your towngames (counting the one i modded) and i figured you were playing it and locked a townread on you.
the bolded is true though. so what exactly are you voting me for?

- that kind of WIFOM logic is also how i got a read on beefster in earthbound (based on how scum!beef would play against me after the last time i lynched him).
so are you voting me for anything other than BoP?

[Mathdino]

ugh i think maria is town after all
or shes that good that her posts frustrate me to where i think shes town

like wtf
why are you assuming there has to be a scum in me/math
why are you voting judge when youre basing your scumread on him on your assumption that me/math has a scum
why do you just not care about ugly or tw

it's just not worth engaging imo

i agree that maria is town at this point but i don't think she's gonna be convinced

i also am mostly unable to actually read her posts so

question is now whether thor had 3 scum or 2 scum, and whether beefster hammers if scum was offwagon

[Mathdino]

ah right yeah

so then the question is why'd he play like utter shit as rolecop when it comes to suiciding himself by scumvoting me

occam's razor says he's just bad at scum i guess

[Mathdino]

what if both ducks are scum

took the words out of my brain

i had an inkling that scum-TW would come back and vote me for basically gamesolving but i didn't see it actually happening

like he seems to be pulling on meta that literally doesn't exist lol

[Mathdino]

stay tuned for my upcoming article on PR hunting and why people are bad at not spewing their roles

And yet you think jjd could be scum here.

how the everliving fuck are these 2 statements related

[Mathdino]

Because I misjudged your hesitancy in reading me.

Your D2 play reeks of trying to set me up as a lynch

.

correct

[Mathdino]

espeonage have you considered not being anti-town in almost every way possible

[Mathdino]

i'm saying you're someone i would only ever consider as a traitor due to the NK

and am otherwise townreading you anyway

so i'm unwilling to lynch you today

you are not welcome to literally claim VT in thread and then openly speculate on who the PRs are

you seem to fundamentally misunderstand that most scum are bad at shooting PRs

[Mathdino]

like the fact that they took a rolecop and shot the IC heavily implies bad at PR hunting

so don't pretend like you helping them in thread doesn't matter to gamestate

[Mathdino]

i'm a human role cop bitch

[Mathdino]

01. the worst
02. Nauci
05. brassherald
07.

Espeonage

08.

MariaR

09. Wisdom
10. UglyDuck
11.

Mathdino

12.

Judge Joseph Dredd

People that don't select the rolecop then kill the IC striked.

Need to read TW's scum PT in Earthbound, forgot to do that.

Not sure about Wisdom kill strategy.

Current hot take is that UglyDuck is a goon and TW is the traitor. Wisdom almost certainly scum if it's not either of the ducks.

[Mathdino]

So, Esp is trying to point out that he thinks I'm a PR, and Math is feeding the fire, and you guys don't want me to suggest that Esp is scum (and now basically the traitor)?

And Nauci earlier saying something like (@Math) "if you went on more about it I would have thought you were the traitor directing their

goon

to shoot me" doesn't catch anyone's attention?

VOTE: Espeonage

Beef+Esp+Nauci still works for me.

stop it this page just makes me wanna bang my head against a wall even more

as anti-town as espeonage is and as funny as it'd be to policy lynch him for
- claiming VT
- publicly rolefishing
- having horrible reads and trying to mislynch the other 2 most experienced players in the game besides wisdom
i really just don't think he's scum
public rolefishing is not a thing scum often do my dude, you know that

also nauci is adopting the jaydragonking philosophy of "if you townread me too hard, i'm just gonna get shot and then i can no longer play the game"

it's perfectly understandable, and that response makes MORE sense from a town POV than a scum POV

i don't think there's any world where we lynch outside the ducks today

[Mathdino]

heh math cant meta me i win

i respect your strategy of making yourself unmeta-able lol

i'm sure someone could but i've played with you once, and cold meta is horrific for experienced players

while espeonage is basically confirmed to have shit reads and no sense of pro-towniness

i feel like you've been setting up high-hanging fruit mislynches to be in an optimal endgame position
and i feel like your reads would be better than this

and the thing that had me townreading you (mindmelding on D1) is something you've literally done as scum before so w/e

PoE is a bitch

ducks first though

[Mathdino]

mariaR assuming everyone else plays scum like she does lol

[Mathdino]

I can't figure out wtf espeonage is doing

or what any of the theories Maria has mentioned mean

I'll try again after a nap

PRO TIP

if you can't understand a maria post, just skip it

works pretty well for me

[Mathdino]

maria, beefster self-voted in mylo as town

the idea that he's not bad at mafia nowadays is very questionable

[Mathdino]

maria if you don't communicate your posts in a way that people can read them, that's not on me

like your posts tend to be these run on garbled messes of back and forth twisty logic and AtE and that was a major issue in mhsmith's game

i spend 3 times as much time reading your posts than anyone else's

[Mathdino]

I appreciate that.

Let's put it this way. You're basically arguing:
UglyDuck/Beefster scumteam doesn't lolhammer Thor because that throws away Beefster and puts them in a horrible position.

Consider what happens if they don't lolhammer Thor though:
1. Thor potentially claims PR and laughs in everyone's faces.
2. The day becomes a gladiation between Beefster and me.
3. Beefster always loses because he scumclaimed in his vote on me, and I don't get D1 lynched.
Possible vigs get another chance to shoot scum aided by Beefster scumflip, and it could be gg by D2.

I would actually argue it'd be stupider of Beefster to NOT hammer Thor in that situation. Beefster gets lynched or vigged after Thor's townflip no matter what anyway. And if Thor didn't get lynched that day, Beefster would.

For a newb-scumteam, do you see a way they could've gotten out of D1 without losing one scum?

[Mathdino]

my mental image of Maria is Elsbeth Tascioni

nauci do you have the write-up you were gonna post saved anywhere?

like did you actually write it or did you mean like a mental thing

[Mathdino]

i actually support policyvigging espeonage for claiming VT

it's the only kill that runs 0 risk of hitting any PRs

reduces paranoia

and reduces bad reads

[Mathdino]

JJD if you knew espeonage was getting vigged tonight who would you be lynching

you can't say nauci

ideally one of the ducks because realistically wisdom isn't getting lynched today

[Mathdino]

sooooo are you ever gonna talk about uglyduck

because he's clearly the main lynch contender for today and if anything you're a counterwagon to him

[Mathdino]

nah i just figured it could conf you as town but your responses kind of conf you as town harder

given that you have no reason to post readable content atm and given that you're into research, here are the main questions i'm wondering if you have a shitton of time on your hands

obviously you don't have to do any of this but i'm pretty meta'd out

1. Does MariaR kill conftown as scum or someone that's more threatening?

2. Does Wisdom kill conftown as scum or someone more threatening?

3. Wtf is the difference between the worst's towngame and scumgame?

Edit:

@Wisdom

: Nah, you're still too pro-town to discard offhand (unlike Thor lol). You'll get easier to read with more flips.

[Mathdino]

Gross. Save a bullet for Espeonage so vig doesn't accidentally hit a PR

[Mathdino]

okay i feel like people are gonna keep trying to lynch espeonage unless it becomes clear he's eating a bullet tonight

do we all agree with vigging espeonage

i don't mean necessarily "do you personally scumread espeonage the most", but rather "if you were the vig would you do the optimal thing and vig a confirmed non-PR to avoid worst case scenarios"

and yeah pretty much agree on TW
like, if he's unwilling to lynch ugly, and if he's TRing JJD/wisdom
then by PoE TW is basically confscum to me lol

[Mathdino]

hmmMMMMMMMM

1. who's my partner

2. if i'm not scum who is

3. if i'm scum why am i basically locking 3 people completely out of the lynchpool when this basically fucks me over by PoE in the end

[Mathdino]

1. I am aware you're good at controlling how your associatives come across. I've been busy and haven't processed this enough to have a clear read on your partner but I'll get back to you.

2. If you're town your Ugly Duck push is probably highly meritorious.

3. Either your partner is in there or you shoot them all?? On what level does that fuck you over by PoE in the end?

1. i'm not asking you to find associatives with me
i'm asking you who can even be scum given your reads

2. ok but i mean you were townreading him earlier so

3. scum-me needs 3 mislynches/bad shots to win (if vig survives tonight they effectively increase that to 4)
do you really think i achieve that by stonewalling nauci, brass, and JJD
none of whom are scumreading me

[Mathdino]

i mean, it's already been established that i can't possibly have been one of the original scum

so the "who's my partner" is an important question because i'm either stonewalling them out of the lynchpool (in which case inevitable WHY ARE THEY BOTH ALIVE) or leaving them in the lynchpool and i guess bussing both my buddies for the win

like i've been pretty open about my lynch order basically being the worst --> UglyDuck --> Wisdom

do you really see nauci-scum with me
or JJD-scum at all
or brassherald-scum hardbussing like he did

[Mathdino]

<3

See you tomorrow hopefully

[Mathdino]

I don't believe the claim.

Scum picked just a rolecop. Vig kill means they know the entire town composition.

[Mathdino]

We have 2 options:

1. Lynch the worst
2. Treat the worst as confscum and lynch his partner because you guys are cowards and are unwilling to lynch a claimed PR. Give him a night to get results, whatever.

Reasons why the claim is bullshit and the worst still makes sense with scum:
- Last Stack The Deck, town fucking failed to lynch SCUM CREATURE because of a L-1 Roleblocker claim. Scum only picked one mod so it was very low risk.

the worst played that game

.

- They killed the IC because there's only one other PR anyway. Scum just have rolecop. Small chance of rolecop+recruit. No chance of rolecop+daytalk.

- the worst checking JJD, someone I was locktowning, after the lolhammer and the interactions there, is not good play.

- the worst saying he would check me, after it's clear to everyone and their mother that I can't possibly be a goon unless I'm specifically a recruited traitor, is not a realistic position to take.

- After the town composition was made obvious last night, the worst realised he could get away with playing like utter shit today by just using a PR claim as a backup. After all, if scum-Creature can't get lynched through a PR claim, he certainly can't, right?

- TW is better than this as town. I know he's better than this as town; literally just last game his reads were on point. He's playing lazy because PR claim.

- the worst is an original goon (making his "goon cop" worthless, he'll always get innos and will blame it on scum picking JOAT/BP). He and Beefster (a weak af team) picked only role cop so they could find all the PRs so they could figure out what their safeclaims were. They didn't recruit the traitor because that makes them susceptible to both vig and a real goon cop. Beefster played bad because he's bad at mafia. TW softbussed to distance.

the worst is scum, and if I see Stack the Deck lost another time to people refusing to lynch PRs because OH MAN SCUM PICKED 3 MODS I'm going to die inside.

The only other explanation I have for Beefster playing as badly as he did D1 is that he planned something out with his buddy where he scumclaimed as a preplanned bus. Everyone keeps asking "why does scum bus their rolecop". I don't think scum have daytalk however. Beefster was probably like "yo guys I'm site inactive and I'm playing like shit lately, just bus me on D1 or some shit".

So in the case of TW town, we should 100% be looking on the Beefster wagon.