Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[skitter30]

i have a night 0 cop guilty on skitter30

sorry skitter was hoping to play with town-you

VOTE: skitter30

Oh no, you caught me!

[skitter30]

hello!

VOTE: the worst

Meh.

Piling onto the hip RVS wagon without talking about it all feels kinda 'trying-to-blend-in'-y.

[skitter30]

ofrhz is it you? You should know it's not me because I was scum last game

I take my gambler's fallacies very seriously, so probably 10/10

VOTE: Mohab500

Sheep me, ducklings!

Remember how I kept on going about how nervous-awkward you were last game? And like you felt kinda distached from the gamestate? And like very passive and very careful? You don't really feel like that here, so townpoints. Oxy gets townpoints too for picking up on this here too.

TW is town I think we should look elsewhere

I think he might be town too.

I'm going to get very confused with ofrhz having an upside down version of tw's old avatar.

[skitter30]

I'm not seeing how the post is more scum indicative than not. In fact, I would be inclined to suggest it's more town indicative than anything else.

It draws attention and provokes reactions. Not something scum want at this point.

Disagree. It felt blending-in-y to me. Like 4 other people just voted TW, so she might as well hop on cuz everyone else is doing it. Also it felt kinda weird coming from Scioness in particular - like it was an empty vote and I'm low-key surprised she didn't have more to say about the fact that a wagon had formed so quickly before joining it.

cool sunshine is town, who's next

why

[skitter30]

yo skitter how's things?

Fairly good, and you?

I'm not going to be around super-much this weekend; I have a big problem set due on Monday.

Also

@mod: I'm always v/la on fridays and saturdays.

[skitter30]

I haven't rolled scum since like ~August; scumgames onsite are I think newbie 1787, micro 724, and minis 1931, 1940, 1946. (I rolled scum like four games in a row last summer, which kinda sucked).

[skitter30]

I had a minor scumstreak early in my MS career. it is a pain.
I'll go do some reading,

shame there's no recent meta.

Yep, math said the same thing last game when he decided to meta me lol.

Gotta bounce, I'll be around tomorrow night at some point!

[skitter30]

Oh gosh 13 pages.

I'm going to try not to wall, so I guess I'll spam instead, apologies in advance.

Maybe I'll just do like one post per page or something.

her best scumgame is the one where RC was coaching her and editing her posts
outside of that i think i have a good handle on her scumrange

of course since you HAD to ask, scum-skitter is going to be hyperaware of our ability to meta-read her this game soooooooooo

I mean, I was hyper-aware that people were going to try to meta me when I signed up, given that you're in the game, and so is like all of 1859.

anyway.........town!skitter is awesome so I will just try to resist reading her for now in the hope she skitters

I, too, am getting a townvibe from Sunshine.

Ofrhz, as well, but to a lesser extent. Similar quick jump from playful -> serious as in last game's opening.

Why on sunshine?

I don't really have a read on either ofrhz or sunshine at this point.

A'ight. Like with TW, what could she have said that would have made sense with that vote on that wagon?

You also said it felt weird specifically from Scioness; Why did it feel weird from her?

Would it have felt weird from any other players? If so, Who?

It felt weird from her cuz I would have expected her to comment on wagon-speed or how it was the L-2 vote or something game-relevant. It was just a greeting and an empty vote and she's more .... game-aware I guess in my experience. It felt kinda like 'hi I'm here and I'm participating, don't pay too much attention to me!' from her since she was just voting where everyone else did without like any game-relevant commentary.

There's no one in this playerlist that I've played with before that I wouldn't have found that post to be weird from. I wouldn't find it to be weird from someone who I know to be wagon-happy/easy-with-their-vote/lolvoters. (I'm not describing the playstyle well. Specific examples of people I've played with who I think would enter the game like that include dunkerdoodles and ausuka, and sometimes not-mafia.)

p-edit: hi i'm here now.

[skitter30]

Sunshine's VLA is noted, please use bolded text to talk to me in the future.

Oh I think I didn't bold this earlier:

@mod

I'm v/la on fridays and saturdays.

[skitter30]

yeah that makes sense actually.

the idea behind not choosing IC though is to say "there's an IC out there not revealing, this bucko claiming jailkeeper is clearly lying though"

tbh vigs hurt town less when i'm in the game, as both alignments

Wow that's kinda evil of you lol

Also since you have to argue against the vig making bad shots if you're scum, the damage of the vig might be mitigated if scum!you picked it tbh.

You ain't seen nothing yet
Have you read the game? I'd say we're solidly out of RVS

I have not, reading now

Are you planning on following through with this at any point?

My vote is on ruru also, not sure what's going on

Why are you voting ruru? I think she's pretty town tbh.

If I project confidence in this one, I'm faking it too, just as town this time!

I'm also always super awkward with people I haven't met before which was everyone last game

Yes, but you feel a lot more natural this time

And now you know like half the playerlist!

Also no such thing as obvtown, we're lkke 5 pagew in wtf

Disagree, people can be obvtown on page5. Kinda dislike that you're around enough to interact with people but not to have like any useful opinions on anything.

jailkeeper almost certainly doesn't exist lol

4. Shoot all the PRs, potentially mislynch the 3rd one by arguing that there must be an innocent child out there and jailkeeper is an

easy fakeclaim

How's JK an easy fakeclaim if it certainly doesn't exist? A JK claim would be obviously real since picking him would be idiotic from scum.

This inconsistency is pinging me hard, you don't fail in this kind of shit

This is actually a fairly good point.

@math: If you think that jk doesn't exist because scum would have to be stupid to put one in, why do you think scum would ever think a jk fake-claim would be believable?

[skitter30]

wat

the point would be telling people "lol no way scum picked jailkeeper, you're just claiming JK to draw out the town PRs!" and mislynching the jailkeeper

how does picking JK being idiotic make JK claims MORE likely to be real? that makes no sense

Nm, I get you.

you're arguing that scum think jk is a bad thing to give town, so never would, and then put one in anyways so that when the real jk claims it's not believeable so that real jk is mislynchable?

Dino could be scum

Kinda agree actually.

cool sunshine is town, who's next

Wtf are you on?

Yeah I still don't get why math was townreading sunshine at that point.

Disagree here, It seems blendy you're right, but that doesn't mean it's scummy.

It feels kinda empty coming from her tbh. What's the difference between tw being 'scum trying to blend in' (146) and scioness being 'blendy but not scummy'?

All of this feels incredibly fake and forced tbh.

I didn't really get that vibe from that post.

Scum to town

Theworst
Skitter
Sunshine, mathidino, ofrhz

Everybody else is null

Why me, why sunshine, why math, why ofrhz?

[skitter30]

Do you find mohabs garbage posts alignment indicative in some way

Not really, sadly.

Do *you* find them AI?

Two things:

How am I suppose to know if Dino is wrong? I'm not the mod and I'm not scum.

Also, my lynch is a bad idea. Period. Only Dr Evil would want me lynched to get his hands on my mojo.
Also also, why are there a lot of ducks and no pussycats?

I mean, the point of the game is for town!you is to like, you know, try to figure out if math is trustworthy enough to follow instead of just listening to him?

Just listening to him cuz he's talking a lot isn't a really good idea if you're town - he could be scum trying to mislead you. And if you're scum, you've just absolved yourself of responsibility for your vote, cuz, after all, you were just listening to math, right?

well
as I said I like skitter so far, she skittered well considering her last post was on page 3.

Yeah, sorry, I'm v/la on weekends and offline for religious reasons.

Imo the only thing townish about skitters iso (things I don't think she would fake) is her first post
I want to townread her
But skittering isn't alignment indicative

I know that responding to your first post would be hard for scum!me. You know that responding to your first post would be hard for scum!me. The fact that I did it is therefore moot and NAI is a stupid reason to find townish.

Why are you prioritizing sorting me?

VOTE: Oxy

206 is an attempt to eliminate my existence.

Uh, is this like a serious vote? He also didn't mention Math ....

that alarms you why......?

Because I've obv.towned enough even number 2 can see with his left eye closed.

No you haven't.

Oh shit speaking of that
Mohab should probably be policyvigged for asking to be lynched
Newbie 1859ers will understand

so if i added a joke it wouldn't be blendy?

is blendy actually a word?

It's not that you didn't add a vote so much as I'd have expected there to be some game-related content from you at that point.

And no, blendy is not a word, but I couldn't think of a better one

what did you expect from me after seeing 4 people wagon on first page?

I expected a 5 paragraph essay + 10-item bulleted list with links to posts that explain your vote.

Tbh, same. And kinda expected you to say more than just talking about people's reactions to your entrance.

[skitter30]

anyway i didn't vote you because i didn't feel like pressure would make you more readable

and also i felt bad

I agree SS's entrance was a little bit weird but I think this is weirder

I used this same excuse when I was scum. I think it's a little bit true but I think a town player would try anyway

And I think town!dino plays to win 100%, so the other reason is a bit fishy to me too

VOTE: Mathdino

Pretty sure scum!you never starts a thing with dino here.

plus the vast majority of wagons don't actually lead to lynches. while she was (until she made her last wallpost) my top scumspect, it doesn't necessarily benefit me to speedlynch my top scumread today, ESPECIALLY when i've been shown to have little ability to readh er

I feel like there's something kinda wonky with this logic but idk what it is exactly.

PFP

I said I wasn't townreading you too? Also he hasn't really sorted a lot of people yet (ie and not just you)?

This is a weird post/vote.

none of these things are scummy in themselves but the combination of all 6 and this many words without things that i think actually advance the gamestate makes me read it as
posturing?
LAMISTy?
busywork?
whatever term you use for "scum trying to act like town", that.

Idk, I didn't read it like that. It felt kinda natural to me?

I missed ofhrz’s response there. Apologies. Question answered.

I will say it’s demonstrably false I’m singling you out, though, since ruru posted that she didn’t think I was town until after I voted you for not doing anything about you not finding me town. If that makes sense.

I’m also pressuring her to get why she’s voting me for voting you, and not getting much.

Her responses make some degree of sense if she’s new, I guess... but I’ll choose to believe it’s scummy and you’re her partner trying to protect her with your responses to my questions.

Note to self: reread this bit later cuz I can't tell if I misread that convo between him/ofrhz/ruru or if sunshine did.

(more useless posting)

<snip> why ofrhz?

....holy shit skitter spelled my name correctly.

Yeah I realized like around the last day of the newbie that I was mispelling your name the entire game

Sorry, bunches of random letters are hard for me to remember the order of.

[skitter30]

Dino could be scum

Kinda agree actually.

Almost missed this. Can you elaborate on this skitter?

He feels kinda .... shallow, I guess? Like not as involved with the gamestate as I'd expect? Like just kinda here? That doesn't explain what I'm seeing super well though; I guess I'll just call it gut till I figure out how to articulate it?

i um
i actually uh
find them pretty townish
i just don't really wanna go into that right now
i'm kind of embarrassed to townread garbageposting tbh

At the time he was actually posting it didn't really look to me like you were townreading him.

wait what?
i think you were trying to say something but ended up saying another thing...
please rephrase this entire first paragraph

Scum!me would have a hard time responding to that post. I know that, and you know that. So me not-responding would kinda match what scum!me would do. So me responding shouldn't be a reason to townread me cuz obviously scum!me doesn't want you to scumread me and would thus respond anyways. Thus NAI.

[skitter30]

Yay I'm in real-time now.

VOTE: AP

I dislike both his mohab and oxy votes.

[skitter30]

Yo skitter30! Either we are mind melding again or youre pocketing me!

Thoughts on Sajj, Sunsh and the other duckling?

Sajj is scummy. Dislike her entrance, dislike that her other posts later were largely about people responding to her entrance.

Sunshine not sure. I don't get the early townreads on him. There's a convo he's in middle of having with ofrhz that I need to reread cuz either I'm misunderstanding wht they're talking about or he is. His vote on ofrhz was weird.

Other duckling = ofrhz or uglyduckling?

Uglyduckling is a non-entity, don't have a read.

ofrhz is ~nulltown. Last game he kinda bled town at this point, which he hasn't done yet, but there were a few posts in the last couple of pages that town-pinged me. Haven't seen anything scummy yet, so nulltown.

[skitter30]

- i think what you're seeing is the effect of an unusual gamestate on me. i can self-meta on that if you want but tl;dr it's hard to go full mathdino on people when 1/3 of the game hasn't posted much and another 1/3 of the game isn't exactly going to give us a smoking gun if they're scum. i have the reads that i have. everyone's sheeped me so i don't really have to argue with anyone lol

- yeah but if you were in my position would you want to encourage mohab's posting though
i'm not always entirely open about my reads on D1
i'm well aware of the influence my reads have on others
case in point: over 2/3 of the playerlist has parroted my townreads thus far

- uhhhh
so are you trying to argue that anything town-indicative for you is NAI because scum-you would be trying to fake town-you
i get the feeling that pursuing this line of discussion is going to barrel us both down WIFOM city

1. I mean, I guess that could be it? It just feels like you're here but not really *with* it if that makes sense.

2. Mohab feels kinda lynchbaity to me? Like if he's town he's where I'd expect scum to be pushing for a mislynch, and he did indeed get up to like L-2 with little resistance. That's why I'm kinda suspicious of people calling him a pl, like you did.

3. Not really, cuz most things that are town-indicative for me scum!me wouldn't really bother trying to mimic cuz most of those things I can't really fake easily. I do think I could fake responding to your post. But yeah this convo is kinda heading towards WIFOM cuz all of this is just me telling you what I'd do in various situations and like, you have no reason to believe me here.

[skitter30]

- uhhhh
so are you trying to argue that anything town-indicative for you is NAI because scum-you would be trying to fake town-you
i get the feeling that pursuing this line of discussion is going to barrel us both down WIFOM city

I think she's saying that scum!mathdino would have used that opening to get an excuse to make an early town read on skitter and then begin pocketing her.

yeah that's basically exactly what I think scum!math would be doing there.

[skitter30]

Although the last time he tried to give a bad read on me I lockscummed his slot for it (@math in case you don't know what I'm talking about: when you repped out of viomi's game, you gave your readslist, and your read on me was atrocious enough that it strongly reaffirmed my earlier scumread on you and your slot was basically scum to me for the rest of the game till we actually got around to lynching it)

p-edit: oh good, you do know what I'm talking about.

[skitter30]

Yeah that was a gross read on me tbh.

[skitter30]

- uhhhh
so are you trying to argue that anything town-indicative for you is NAI because scum-you would be trying to fake town-you
i get the feeling that pursuing this line of discussion is going to barrel us both down WIFOM city

I think she's saying that scum!mathdino would have used that opening to get an excuse to make an early town read on skitter and then begin pocketing her.

yeah that's basically exactly what I think scum!math would be doing there.

For the record, I don't think it makes it NAI. Knowing something is a test is not the only prerequisite to passing.

Is this talking about me or talking about math?

[skitter30]

Okay I give up on sleeping

@skitter

I feel like AP's roleplay would be increasingly awkward/hard to pull off as scum as the game progresses making him a poor D1 lynch.

What do you think?

Do you still think Oxy is town?

Honestly know nothing about AP so I'm not really seeing roleplay? Maybe I'm reading him badly cuz of that?

I kinda think it's easier for scum to hide behind roleplay tbh, cuz they can brush away weirdness as roleplaying.

I don't think that roleplaying is inherently hard for scum to do, or that stopping the rp is AI. Like I don't think that keeping the roleplay up or failing to do so is inherently AI. Unless you're trying to say something else with the bolded.

Only thing AI I got from Oxy is that he picked up on town!you around the same time that I did, so I don't really have a strong read on him. ~nulltown

[skitter30]

it was how i communicated it, not the logic itself

Well, sorta, more that you were calling me town for how I cased people *while ignoring that the major case I'd made in the game thus far had been on you*.

Ofrhz kinda bled town last time, and he hasn't yet here, but that isn't really a reason to scurmead someone. A few of his posts while I read through town-pinged me; I'd have to go back and find them though. I don't particularly think he's done anything scummy at this point.

So ~nulltown too.

Is this talking about me or talking about math?

I don't think that your response to his entrance is NAI for you.

Thus, I don't think that his understanding the wifom around that entrance necessitates him being scum.

That's not particularly where the scumvibes on math were coming from, so much as it occurred to me that that's how scum!math might try to approach my slot. But since I can kinda see town!math doing it too I don't' particularly think it's AI.

What I'm kinda wondering is if I'm the person town!math decides to prioritize sorting here though.

[skitter30]

also i think

that's

a perfectly valid reason to scumread someone. it's how i've caught scum-NSG 100% of the time lol

What's 'that' referring to?

but definitely willing to wagon ofrhz

I'm not right now.

He was. He said he was a page or so back.

The reason he gave for prioritizing you was really pro town

Actually, I remember thinking it was pro town moments after I voted The Worst.

I didn't know about all this meta stuff at that point,

so I felt low key bad because I could have voted you just as easily and helped him sort you.

Yeah but since he's already started the game by prioritizing me, scum!math has to say that's what town!him would do, so the fact that he says that's what he would do doesn't mean much.

ie: idk if I believe him saying that town!math prioritizes sorting me in the playerlist.

@skitter reads on me please?

I don't have one right now. Hardnull.

Mathdino is obv!town

And it's because he's holding back

??????

Explain? That's what's making him scummy to me.

ofrhz (2) Sunshine13, skitter30

@brass:

I'm voting AP right now.

If you can wait until tomorrow night, I can maybe explain my viewpoints. Otherwise I don't mind being lynched.

I don't feel like scum say this tbh. I feel like they'd be more survivalistic.

@math:

2. Mohab feels kinda lynchbaity to me? Like if he's town he's where I'd expect scum to be pushing for a mislynch, and he did indeed get up to like L-2 with little resistance. That's why I'm kinda suspicious of people calling him a pl, like you did.

Next page in a bit.

[skitter30]

UNVOTE: MathDino

SNIP

Thoughts in spoiler:

Spoiler:

AP - 1 or 2

small things

that lead me to believe he's town,

very little content so far though so this could be subject to change.

Can you specify what those things are? Italics feels kinda fence-sitty.

MathDino - I like his reasoning for scumreading TW, seems to be thinking about the game in a logical fashion.

I dislike his reasoning for scumreading TW, and I don't think that thinking logically is particulalry a towntell for him.

Oxy - I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he's saying here

Is this a reason to townread someone?

TheWorst - Seems to be trying super hard to be friendly, could be a playstyle thing but I've never played with TW before so I have no idea. Either way I agree with Math's reasoning for scumreading this slot

I don't get why you're voting here if you think it could be a playstyle thing. Don't get why you're sheeping math either

Tldr: feels kinda fence-sitty, and like leaving room to switch reads, and I don't really like his TW vote. Like it's all very vague, if that makes sense.

If I had to fake a readslist I would put Mohab as scum

This is exactly why I think he's kinda lynch-baity and where scum would go if he's town.

Now, you're all "ruru is new, man" so I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to comment on the context of the vote, particularly when it will allow them - and other newer players - to use their vote better in future.

I think some context you might be missing is that me/ruru/ofrhz/math/scioness/pin/oxy all just played in a newbie game that ended like on Wednesday, and that this is the first non-newbie game (on-site at least) for ruru/scioness/ofrhz.

I don't think he'd necessarily go out of his way to mention that ruru is new in that context in that post, and I don't think he'd necessarily be going out of his way to try to guide her to vote better given that he's fairly new himself.

And I think that for most people who played in that game, ruru is fairly obvtown at this point.

(I've gone back and read the ofrhz/sunshine thing now)

This is when ruru said they weren’t townreading me either, and while

you implied you weren’t townreading me when asking someone else why they were townreading me, you didn’t come out and actually say you weren’t.

This is also why I don’t like ofrhz saying I’m ignoring other people for not townreading me, as mentioned previously: when I voted, nobody else had said as much, and when ruru voted me, I put some pressure on her.

You’ve joined that party, but I only have one vote *shrug*

What are you trying to say here? Like I'm not really understanidng the connection between the bolded lines.

I thought it was implied that I wasn't townreading you when I asked people why they were townreading you. I wasn't particularly scumreading you either, so much as I didn't get where the townreads were coming from.

Ah-ha! So you do trust in Dino being town himself here. Otherwise, why wouldn't scum.ruru try to distance herself from her partner?

Yeah, I'm saying that if ruru is scum and math is town I don't think she votes him there like that ever. From how she played 1859 I don't think she intreacts with a partner that spontaneously either.

Honestly know nothing about AP

That's a first. How would you like to get to know me better?

I don't get the gimmick but I'm pretty sure that the reasons I dislike your content are not gimmick-related tbh (specifically sheeping maths' mohab vote and the random oxy vote cuz oxy left him out of his readslist).

(If I'm wrong and those are gimmick-related someone please correct me)

My post was a joke. I know Scioness likes to drop massive cases when voting for people, but I don’t think this assumption can be made for RVS votes.

I mean,I wasn't literally expecting a 35 paragraph wallpost, but I was kinda expecting some sort of game-related reason for her L-2 vote.

"you're not obvtown yet even though you're usually obvtown as town"
is a valid reason for voting someone IMO

Ok gonna try harder to newb town

Kinda townreading this.

[skitter30]

@math:

2. Mohab feels kinda lynchbaity to me? Like if he's town he's where I'd expect scum to be pushing for a mislynch, and he did indeed get up to like L-2 with little resistance. That's why I'm kinda suspicious of people calling him a pl, like you did.

Can you address this? This is where some of the scumvibes are coming from.

[skitter30]

OK math's more likely than not scum now.

what is there to address? you didn't ask me a question and

i largely agree with this sentiment

You tried pulling something like this in MKUltra when I scumread you there too.

Like you're agreeing with me and saying you get where I'm coming but at the same time downplaying what I'm saying. Also you're trying to say that town!math would do the exact same thing here.

It's weird to tell me that you agree with me but that you don't think the point I'm making is worth responding to.

Spoiler:

This is... literally exactly my strategy, yeah.

I get that you feel weird about it.

@Everyone scumreading my opening: What do you think town-Math does in that situation? More specifically...
1. Do you think town-Math even tries to lie low? (if no, this implies I'm lying about the nature of this hydra)
2. Assuming town-Math DOES lie low, how does town-Math do it differently in the opening?

You're correct

that I'm preemptively defending against people who expect too much of me.

i don't see why i'm the one that you're barreling after for the mohab wagon or why i need to address this

Again, you agree with me that I have a point so idk why you're questioning me pushing it.

Like you're townreading him for it and pushing a pl on someone you're townreading just cuz they're garbage-posting is stupid.

And that's exactly where I expect scum to be pushing here, so the fact that you did this is suspcious, as is the fact that you *agree with me that it's suspicous but are trying to handwave away this convo*.

Why you in particular? Cuz you wanted to pl even though you were townreading him. Also cuz I have to go back and see how the wagon built; you staying on the wagon stuck out to me cuz you later said you were townreading him there.

I don't think AP and math are both scum btw.

[skitter30]

i don't wanna 1v1 you on D1 skitter

Yeah I don't really want to right now either; it'll probably mess with the gamestate a lot. Hence I'm not voting you atm, especially since I really should be doing the problem set that's due tomorrow instead of this .

if you want me to respond to your case i will but

Specifically want you to address why you're handwaving away what I'm saying if you agree with me and think I have a point.

40% "i saw him as scum once and he did [x] [y] and [z]"

Right, and that's the thing that I was calling you scum there for and I was right, remember?

Reads are something like:

{ruru}
{tw}
{sunshine, ofrhz}
{oxy, uglyduck, pin, mohab} --- null
{scioness}
{AP, draynth}
{you}

I really gotta work on this problem set; I'll be around later when I can't stand staring at it any longer and need a break.

[skitter30]

4 pages. I'm only going to spend ~15 min on this now though; I'm mostly here cuz I need a break from my hw before I go crazy.

- what have i handwaved away other than your scumread on me

You told me that you agree with my suspicions wrt the mohab wagon and than preceeded to ask me why I'm questioning it. It's disingenuous. Either I have a point and I should be pursuing it, or I don't have a point and I shouldn't be questioning it and you don't have to bother responding to me.

It's bizarre to tell me that you agree with my point (ie that scum could well have been pushing the mohab thing and that you're scummy for doing so), but also think that it's not something I should be pursuing (and that me specifically questioning *you* about it is weird).

i was scum in that game for my tone, not for my content. that's why i'm telling you that read on you wasn't some kind of smoking gun in itself. again, it was a correct read, i was legitimately scumhunting, but the way i presented everything made me awkward scum.

I don't know how to articulate tonereads beyond 'feels wrong'.

This is basically also at least partially a toneread. You feel wrong here in basically the *exact* same way you felt wrong in those posts I quoted. Like I look at your posts here and think, they feel wrong, where I have seen this before, and is it relevant that these posts remind me of some other game (ie does that situation reasonably apply here)? Oh this reminds me of the posts Math wrote in MKUltra that also felt wrong, which he wrote in a similar situation (ie me scumreading you), which I correctly scumread him for.

You just felt *right* in the Newbie, and like you were scumhunting there. You feel really, really, really wrong here, especially with your last few posts. I don't know how to articulate 'wrong' better though. If I try to put it in words it's something like bravado/defensive/over-confidant/disingenuous/playing-down-the-validity-of-what-I'm-saying.

[skitter30]

specifically sheeping maths' mohab vote and the random oxy vote cuz oxy left him out of his readslist

OMG! You're a

tripod

tryhard.

So you didn't like me sticking my vote unto a wagon I liked to see how it felt, and you also don't like me swinging it around. Tell me baby, what is your thing?

VOTE: skitter

Now you can add OMGUS to your list. Let's call it.. reason #3

I don't like your votes cuz they're bad.

[skitter30]

@universe anyone played with draynth before?

He repped into newbie 1797 a year ago ~12 hours before the day1 deadline. He was asleep before I was around, and he got lynched after I went asleep and before he woke up or something, so, like, I was technically in a game with him but we didn't actually interact.

He was more try-hard there, but his slot was imminently getting lynched, so idk if that means much.

[skitter30]

It felt weird from her cuz I would have expected her to comment on wagon-speed or how it was the L-2 vote or something game-relevant. It was just a greeting and an empty vote and she's more .... game-aware I guess in my experience. It felt kinda like 'hi I'm here and I'm participating, don't pay too much attention to me!' from her since she was just voting where everyone else did without like any game-relevant commentary.

There's no one in this playerlist that I've played with before that I wouldn't have found that post to be weird from. I wouldn't find it to be weird from someone who I know to be wagon-happy/easy-with-their-vote/lolvoters. (I'm not describing the playstyle well. Specific examples of people I've played with who I think would enter the game like that include dunkerdoodles and ausuka, and sometimes not-mafia.)

idk who are you talking about but that's not me, lol. do you remember my rvs from last game?

Hello!

VOTE: eth0s

Has a recent Last visited date and hasn't posted yet.

Is your vote serious?
VOTE: ruru

You had content in your entrance, which is my point. There you found someone's entrance interesting enough to vote them for it and to pressure them to talk about it.

Here you just blindly became the L-2 vote on a wagon without talking about it at all.

[skitter30]

And I think that for most people who played in that game, ruru is fairly obvtown at this point.

why just for people who played that game?

Cuz I was talking about *ofrhz* townreading her, which makes a lot of sense to me given how that game went down; ruru should be fairly obvtown based on meta. That, at least, is what I'm reading her on.

Like I'm not saying that that other people can't find her townie, but that it makes sense to me that someone who played in that game would find her obvtown.

[skitter30]

hard to say. bad gut feeling from the reads list

top townread is someone literally everyone agrees on

second top townread is the other semi-experienced player who's constantly talking about paranoia of me

then the 2 slots that have been fighting each other for a while (skitter doesn't seem to be commenting on this apparent TvT)

scioness is a lazy read and i'm actually starting to think sci is town
AP/draynth is low hanging fruit that doesn't look like low hanging fruit

and i'm a dangerous slot to scum

-> I think I had ruru as town on like page3 or something (ie before that was the consensus)

-> TW is fairly townie and is picking up on / pursuing the same things I've been seeing. I don't think that the 'scummy post' you've been harping about is scummy

->I think sunshine is reading too much into ofrhz non-townread of him, and is probalby missing some relevant context (ie 1859), but after reading their whole debate I'm liking his thought process. Ofrhz is pinging me as town, and I havne't really seen anything scummy from him.

-> Scioness I dislike her entrance and I haven't really seen anything to change that read

-> Draynth's posts are meh. (You do realize that you're pushing the 'low-hanging fruit' of draynth too, right?)

-> AP I'm having some trouble parsing cuz of the gimmick but I think that the things that I dislike aren't gimmick related.

-> Scum!you is a dangerous slot to town

[skitter30]

It might seem weird but the bolded actually really makes me thing he's town

The line above that is kinda absolving himself of responsiblity for his vote

Why don't you think that thinking logically is a towntell? or do you mean just for MathDino?

I don't think it's a towntell for Math. (Ie that's how town!him plays and I think scum!him emulates that)

It's nice and early and I wanted to move my vote off RVS, why not?

It's also an attempt to find out if it's purely a playstyle thing and try interact with TW

.

OK, that's fair.


--

I like 501

--

also what do i do with ap? i don't even know what he is roleplaying.

this is serious question.

watch Austin Powers

are you telling me if I don't watch Austin Powers I won't be able to sort him?

I kinda townread this.

OK I stopped just before uglyduck's wall in 512 cuz going through that is going to take some time and like my hw is looming.

[skitter30]

Another short break from my hw.

I don't think I'm going to go post-by-post of the last around 8 pages; if there's something in particular there that people want me to answer
that I missed lmk. Here's a stream-of-conscious-y summary of my thoughts:

-> scioness might be town

-> I realized that one of the reasons I'm scumreading math is not necessarily valid in this specific scenario, so my scumread on him has weakened, but still exists. (I'm not elaborating on this bit right now though)

-> If ruru is town, AP is very, very, very likely town as well. Or, more accurately, I don't think scum!AP posts 594 knowing that town!ruru flips green.

-> if Math is town oxy might be buddying him.

-> I don't get UD's vote on ofrhz. It's kinda *so* bad that it might come from town tbh?

-> I have a fairly strong townread on ofrhz at this point

-> @math, 527 - assuming the premise of scum in the ducks, why'd you vote ofrhz there, and not, say, tw or ud?

-> @math, 567 - Cuz I think you're more likely than not scum, but don't think that trying to lynch you is a good idea right now cuz : a) my scumread on you has weakened, b) if we 1v1 it'll fuck over the gamestate irregardless of your alignment and I don't really want to do that c) I don't have time to 1v1 you today/tomorrow irl anyways d) you might get nk'd and then I wouldn't have to worry about you

I just don't want people to forget that I'm scumreading you even if I don't want to push it right now.

-> @math, 569, and a few other posts too - You're townread by a bunch of people and a lot of people are sheeping you and I don't particulalry trust that your pushes are town-motivated right now. And the cog-dis thing is a phrasing thing. And yeah, I agree with math that I probably get sorted in this gamestate via nk or cop-check, if, like, one exists.

-> @oxy, 593 - I didn't exactly start 1859 pre-disposed to scumread you; you just felt very scummy like immediatley once the game started. I am acknowledging the possibility that I might be getting tunneled on math though; trying very hard not to let tunnel mode take over. 595 - that's my point.

UNVOTE:

This was through ~page 25

[skitter30]

Okay never mind actually

Ugh I feel like I really need input from skitter and SS

PE: SS confused you and TW, which is unlikely to happen naturally if there is scumteam with SS + a duck. So I'm like 80% ready to rule out SS+you and SS+TW and this is one of the reasons I think all three of you are not so good lynches today

Hey I'm around for a bit before my next class. I've vaguely skimmed but I haven't really read past ~page 25.

[skitter30]

I'm like ~10 pages behind so I'm not fully informed.

-> I scumread math but I don't think it's a good idea to push his lynch right now; it'll fuck over the gamestate and I irl don't think I have time for that before the day ends.

-> I don't want to lynch AP; I'm fairly confidant he's town if you're town.

Going by the last vc to see what the gamestate is kinda at:

-> I don't really get the scumreads on ofrhz

-> UD's posting is kinda gross but I kinda don't think it comes from newbscum tbh. It's almost *too* bad. And like too naive maybe? And there's a few of his posts in ~700s (which is wehre I am) that I have trouble seeing coming from newbscum

-> lol we're not lynching you today

-> oxy might be scum here tbh. Last time, despite bieng super tunneled, there were some posts that I didnt' really think came from scum. I haven't really seen any posts like that here. I feel like he's almost tyring too hard to scumread ofrhz. I think he might be buddying math. Like I've seen nothing to townread and last time despite being *super tunneled* I saw things to townread, so that's worrying me.

-> Already talked about math and AP.

[skitter30]

OK, I guess more running thoughts, starting ~page 25

-> I feel like oxy is trying too hard to scumread ofrhz. Like 729 is an example. 731 too.

-> @oxy, 679 - my point is that pushing a pl on someone that you're townreading is scummy. I think he's lynchbait. Math is townreading him. Math, *at the time he was townreading him*, said he wanted to PL him. I'm aware that he is not actively pushing him right now (now = ~page 27 and whenever we initially had that convo). The point that I'm making is that Math agreed he was lynch-baity and *indicated he was cool with a pl on him anyways*

-> 680 - feels kinda weird? Like too agressive for what UD actually did.

-> 690 -math's read on me is kinda weird and kinda ... passive is maybe a good word? I don't think ofrhz is playing that differently from 1859 (or at least, that I don't think that the differences can't be explained by the fact that he has slightly more experience this time around. He even played differently day1 of 1859 from day2 of 1859). He feels kinda nuanced to me and a few of his posts I think more likely than not don't come from town.

-> @ruru, 693 - I'm not really reading AP's posts right now tbh. The gimmick is hard for me to parse and his logic is really weird. I'm fairly confident that he's not-scum if you're town, and I'm pretty sure you're town, and that's enough for me to townbin for today and re-evaluate later when I have more time. Also the push on you is kinda bad, but he doesn't really have enough in-thread presence/credibility/charisma/whatever that I think it's like going to snowball or whatever, so I'm not really caring that much about what he's posting.

-> I kinda townread UD's 715 - I don't think newbscum naturally finds other people not-suspicious for 'not-lining-them-up-for-a-mislynch'. Same with 721.

-> 739 - right, so that's why I think that was a townie post from ofrhz cuz I don't think that scum, like, actually say that. (And definitely not to their partners)

-> @oxy: K, so you're like spreasheeting interactions people have with each other. Is it a general scum-trait that scum don't interact with their partners? Is it a scum-trait for either ofrhz or the worst specifically? If yes, why do you think that? If not, why on earth is that relevant, and why do you keep bringing it up, and are you using it as evidence of them being partners? And if you don't think their interactions are tvt, why do you think it's svs and not, say, svt?

OK, I got up to like ~page 32, and I have class nowish again.

Sorry for being so behind. Weekly problem sets that take >20 hours to do shouldn't be a thing imo

[skitter30]

@oxy: K, so you're like spreasheeting interactions people have with each other. Is it a general scum-trait that scum don't interact with their partners? Is it a scum-trait for either ofrhz or the worst specifically? If yes, why do you think that? If not, why on earth is that relevant, and why do you keep bringing it up, and are you using it as evidence of them being partners? And if you don't think their interactions are tvt, why do you think it's svs and not, say, svt?

Yeah, I'd bet good money it's AI for the Worst.
If he's in a thread, and you're in a thread, town!duckling engages with you. Some fluff, sure, but also about the game.

So when I scum read Ofrhz, and I scum read The Worst, and then I go and see that even though both of them were talking in the thread around the same time for dozens of pages, the worst hasn't said a single word about the game directly to Ofrhz (other than to eventually say he was scum), I think it is good complimentary evidence to my scum reads.

Have you played with TW before? Specifically scum!TW before?

I feel like this is fairly circumstantial evidence that you're using to back a pre-flip read when you don't know that either of them are scum. Like I don't feel like this evidence is inherently AI and I don't like that you're using it as a reason to teamread them.

[skitter30]

so I mean I put it there, and then you bolded it.... I said it was a real question. As in, "admitting I could of been wrong, someone give me some insight"....

My question wasnt a real question because I didn’t demarcate it as such? Like really?

I’m willing to consider your POV as town only because skitter said so, but it’s really hard for me to do when your scumreading me for really bad (and now hypocritical!) reasons

I'm getting some buddying vibes from you tbh.

And yeah the posts he made on this page are kinda townie imo.

[skitter30]

Yeah I have the feeling one of {Oxy, Md} is scum. Probably not both but I don't know? I don't really like their voting either way

Would you be satisfied with flipping Oxy today because I feel like I still wouldn't know what to do with Md if Oxy flipped red and that makes me less interested in lynching Oxy

I'm not sure if that even makes sense though honestly

I have too many null/scumreads

I feel you on oxy and math. I don't really think they're *both* scum? Like they're propping up townreads on each other and voting with each other too often imo; I feel like scum try not to be that connected to their partners.

I need to finish catching up but as of right now I think I'd be cool with flipping oxy. town!Math might get sorted via nk if we're lucky and then we don't have to actually sort him. If he's around late-stage I'd find that suspicious tbh.

I have too many townreads I think.

[skitter30]

What if Math, Oxy, skitter, and ruru are all town? Given this, who should we lynch today? Please discuss (seriously, I’m stuck).

Why town!oxy?

There was a post somewhere in the pages that I skimmed from draynth that I kinda liked and thought didn't come from scum.

Specifically:

Does anyone wanna just compromise and lollynch Draynth

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest against this...?

I don't really feel like scum suggest themselves as a compromise lynch tbh.

[skitter30]

Have you played with TW before? Specifically scum!TW before?

I feel like this is fairly circumstantial evidence that you're using to back a pre-flip read when you don't know that either of them are scum. Like I don't feel like this evidence is inherently AI and I don't like that you're using it as a reason to teamread them.

This is gross. Reads on each of them were formed prior to any association analysis.
Association analysis purely icing on cake.

yes, and I think that tying them together by how many times they responded to each other and using that to form an associative read before either of them have flipped is gross.

[skitter30]

HE IS LITERALLY DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE

You misread the reasoning for my scum reads and now this. Skitter, PLZ READ

That's not really how I read it, but yeah I guess I can see the other way too.

[skitter30]

yes, and I think that tying them together by how many times they responded to each other and using that to form an associative read before either of them have flipped is gross.

okay. so let's go back to my reads from before the association analysis. I still think they are scum. Better?

Yeah, I don't have a problem with you thinking they're scum individually. I have a problem with saying they make sense together cuz ofrhz only interacted with tw like six times or whatever it is when I don't think that's a scumtell and when neither of them have flipped yet.

[skitter30]

It's kind of a nod to the fact that a couple of my best town reads think you're scum

And partly a vote lodged in protest because mathdino is being slow to come around.

[skitter30]

He is hard tunneling me, and I highly doubt this kind of tunnel is coming from scum. It’s incredibly similar to the Scioness tunnel where he thought literally everything Scioness wrote reeked scum, even though no one else saw it. I think the fact that he has maintained this read even though not that many people agree reinforces my read on him.

I think his vote on UD was townish in that he was trying to form wagons.

He has decided to sheep Math, but I don’t think this is buddying. Oxy only sheeps Math for reads he’s unsure about. But like in the case of TW, Math is townreading TW now I think, but Oxy is still scumreading TW.

His scumread on you feels more ... forced I guess is a good word. Like he's overstating the significance of things that I don't find to be that AI and using that to scumread you almost.

I think voting a townread as 'a nod to the fact that a couple of my best town reads think you're scum' is kinda gross.

I misread the draynth thing I think, so never mind there.

[skitter30]

Fight me, skitter.

My reads are super clear,
And I'm sheeping solid town reads.

It's a pro town mood, and I can be melodramatic about it if I want to.

Sheeping townreads onto other townreads is pretty bad.

Like it's bizarre to townread ud but vote there anyways cuz math is. If you're like townreading ud, why don't you like try to talk to your other townread about why you think he's wrong, instead of, you know, following him there?

[skitter30]

Like it's bizarre to townread ud but vote there anyways cuz math is.

Unless you think math is spectacularly better at reading ud, I don't get why you just drop your read there to sheep math.

Like it makes me feel like your reads aren't actually real since it apparently doesn't take a lot to get you to vote a townread.

[skitter30]

You're still posting, but you're not reading my posts. Which is cool and all, but I'm not engaging with it anymore.

OK, I don't get what you're trying to say then and as best as I can tell you voted a townread cuz another townread told you to.

I want to talk to ruru but I'm probably voting you tbh.

[skitter30]

I feel like you have explained my point for yourself here. in 1859 ruru posted something interesting, here there was nothing really interesting so I have added onto.

I mean, I thought the wagon on TW was interesting, but eh.

I hope this isn't only reason for your current townlean on me

That's just about the only thing I saw to townread you for tbh. I dislike your entrance. I liked that post. I don't think you've posted much else AI at this point.

--

but part of me tin foil hats, looks at ofrhz scum reading mohab, and sees pissed off scum partner

I don't really see this dynamic like at all tbh.

--

Yeah tbh oxy didn't really seem to be playing up the LAMIST-y thing on purpose to be seen as scummy, especially since he stopped ~day2 after math pointed it out and after I kept on harping on it.
--

Like I get what you're going for, but idk if we need to make it nearly as formal as this. There's a fairly decent vigpool, and most people seem to be paying enough attention to be aware that it exists.

(Ftr I'd take mohab out if NSG reps in)

Like so long as no one lolshoots and stays within the general pool, I think we're fine.

(And good luck with your exams, Mohab!)

[skitter30]

VOTE: oxy

[skitter30]

Yeah tbh oxy didn't really seem to be playing up the LAMIST-y thing on purpose to be seen as scummy, especially since he stopped ~day2 after math pointed it out and after I kept on harping on it.

what was the point after having been role blocked and cleared by math
ruru, you didn't see a change because it was a strategy(lol) i took going into the game, as i said before.

I guess I think I would believe the LAMIST-y thing if you had mentioned it was a strategy in post of that game instead of in-game, here, when people are comparing this game to that one.

--

it is a bit weird that people get more and more comfortable with voting oxy the further he drops down my town list/the longer he spends not in my townbloc

I'm not sure if people are getting more comfortabe voting oxy as he drops down in your town-list, or if he's dropping down in your town list as more people vote for him.

Note to self: look into this later when I have time.

Whether or not it was AI for you to consciously/sub-consciously avoid talking to your scum partner directly will come out in post game.

Another thing to research later.

--

I agree with draynth that oxy's side of that argument feels rather forced, and like over-confidant/false-bravado-y (especially 1082, 1088)

I wonder why draynth didn't vote there after saying that

--

but skitter tunnel feels precisely like last gam

e, and I think she's town. And I'm pretty sure math is town

This is a really weird thing for you to say cuz I'm not tunneling you here and the way I'm interacting with you here is vastly different from how I interacted with you in that game.

I kinda feel like you're calling me town and saying I'm tunneling you so that you can brush off the scumread tbh

--

@scioness: I think your entry was bad. You have like one post that I like. neither of these are enough for me to sort you confidentally either way right now. I think part of the problem is that I haven't super been here, and you haven't super been here. If you're town, I think I'll be able to see that like I did last time when you start posting more content and contributing more. IE I think you'll become more readable to me if you post more content, and you haven't really done anything scummy enough for me to jump on that today before you catch up.

You're, as a whole, like somewhere between null and nullscum but I think I can get a better read with more content so I'm just kinda waiting for that to happen.

Basically what I'm saying is that I like the one post and it's town-indicative, and I also dislike your entrance and I'm waiting for more from you to firm up this read. Liking one post doesn't mean I townread you.

--

Oxy vs TW feels TvT. Can’t tell if I’m confbiasing but I don’t want to lynch either of those two

I’m a fan of left shift NSG

Sheeping skitter on her AP theory - can we lynch in {UD, Draynth, possibly Scioness}

Doesn't feel tvt to me and I'm low-key getting the vibe that you might be buddying me at this point.

[skitter30]

In post 1120, Oxy wrote:
but skitter tunnel feels precisely like last game, and I think she's town. And I'm pretty sure math is town


This is a really weird thing for you to say cuz I'm not tunneling you here and the way I'm interacting with you here is vastly different from how I interacted with you in that game.

I kinda feel like you're calling me town and saying I'm tunneling you so that you can brush off the scumread tbh

tbh it's both you're bad read on me and your bad read on dino, and how you have pushed past multiple explanations for things you are concerned about.

I don't think my reads on either of you are bad.

Also last time when I was scumreading you, you tried to talk me out of it when you were townreading me and like tried to work with me, and here you're just ... not.

[skitter30]

I'm trying very, very, very hard not to be tunneled, and I don't think I'm tunneled on either of you right now tbh.

I'm also, like, trying not to screw over the gamestate like I did last time, which is why I'm not pushing either as hard as I could be.

(Although the scumread on Math has lessened; you're somewhere ~nullscum atm.)

Math, can you tell me about your oxy read?

[skitter30]

@oxy, 1223

You're basically telling me that you think I'm talking past people and ignoring their explanations. I'm not. I'm telling you that your explanation doesn't make sense to me and isn't really credible.

You townbinned UD strongly enough that you were willing to fight anyone who disagreed with the read 645 (although when sajj took you up on that offer, you declined).

Then Math votes him, and sheep him in the next post, 868 (And as far as I can tell the only time you mentioned ud in between the two posts is when counting the number of times tw interacted with him)

It's kind of a nod to the fact that a couple of my best town reads think you're scum

And partly a vote lodged in protest because mathdino is being slow to come around.

This is your explanation for voting him.

To me, it looks like you sheeped a townread onto another townread just cuz. That ... just doesn't make sense to me. If you're townreading UD that strongly, why wouldn't you protest when Math voted there? Why would you *follow* math and vote there?

Like voting a townread without protest cuz another townread of yours is doing it just isn't a credible/reasonable explanation to me.

If I'm misssing someething, eli5 again cuz this just doesn't make sense coming from a town perspective to me, and further discussion hasn't really clarified.Like I'm not reading past what you're saying. I'm saying that your explanation doesn't make sense.

From my perspective, Mathdino was holding court all through the early game. Mathdino laid out a good defense of his play at the time, and I think that added

credibility to this read by Skitter. In retrospect, this was a really odd conclusion to draw from the game up until this point.

I don't understand what the bolded means. (IE if that added credibility to my read why was it an odd conclusion?)

I find this read scummy. Skitter just played in a game where I tunneled Sajj right out of the gate.

She

responded by focusing on deflecting the case against her. This seems like a generic lvl 1 read coming from someone who should be seeing this as either town indicative or NAI.

Not sure who the second sentence is talking about. (IE who does 'she' mean - me or scioness?)

I don't think her entrance was town-indicative at all. I can understand an argument for NAI, but it doen't read townie to me in any way whatsoever.

Scioness .... hasn't really been present much. I need to be seeing her thought process I think to get a good read on her, and she hasn't really been contributing a lot. I don't really know what she's thinking at this point, and I don't feel like I have enough content from her to sort her.

Like aside from her entrance, the one post that I like, and challenging you on your UD read ... I can't really remember anything she's done this game. And the longer this goes on, I'm finding myself becoming more and more concerned about this.

Also I feel like you're hedging on your math read.

[skitter30]

@math can you talk about your oxy read?
ANd give me a tldr why you were/are scumreading me?

[skitter30]

On skitter: One thing I kept coming back to in that dialogue you had with skitter earlier was the discussion of MKUltra. You guys brought it up simultaneously, and that was kind of cute. It flowed from the conversation, but then it went on forever. And neither of you were really trying to prove a hard meta argument based on the game. So what was the point? - Actually, my real question is, have you and skitter debriefed mkultra before? Or was this the first time?

He repped out and in post I wasn't sure how much he'd been following along, and while math was still alive in 1859, MKUltra was still ongoing and I couldn't talk about it.

From my POV, MKultra went omething like:

Spoiler:

-> MAth's in a hydra with impede, and Math's etnrance is horribly LAMIST. I call him out on that and he agrees with me that he can undrstand that but brushes it away by saying it's his first time playing multiball in forever or something.

-> Math makes a post shortly thereafter basically telling people not to worry too much if the other guy in the hydra is scummy, and that math would pick up the slack if that guy ever fails to produce content. This basically read to me as pre-emptively defending against scumreads on the other guy that hadn't happened yet, and basically telling people not to care if the other guy did scummy things. I calll him out on that too and he basically brushes it away, calls on self-meta to defend himself, and very subtly misreps by argument and moves the goalposts to defend against something more innocuous that I wasn't accusing him of. This is basically where the scumread came from, like his first ~5 posts of the game

-> shortly thereafter, they rep out. Before they do, math makes a readlist on everyone, and his read on me was gross. This was the nail-in-the-coffin on this read, and I was basically never getting talked out of scum!math at that point

-> nobody else saw what I was seeing so I just kept on saying very, very loudly that math's slot was scum without really pushing it until enough people agreed with me to lynch the slot like two days later. And people were like, townreading the troll and I think the lynch only went through cuz both opposing scum were on it cuz the cw was a member of the opposing scumteam.

@mathdino maybe you are getting worse? ;P

uglyduck is not scum. I'm pretty confident on that one. I really don't see where the scum reads were coming from. at all.

Then why did you vote there?

remember that he witnessed the falls of drixx and skitter, and me telling skitter she spewed too much
i think town-him... idk learns the lesson second-hand?

while scum-him isn't careful about spewing/not spewing his role

so ofrhz is a high equity vigshot

I basically think the opposoite, that he saw softing vt by mistake put me in the lynchpool for at least somewhat mechanical reasons, and I feel ike scum would be more survivalistic: Like not say they'd self-vote at L-1, and like, not be cool wiht being in a vig-pool, and like, not soft VT when that would put them in the lynchpool.

Like I think scum would try to avoid doing things they know this playerlist would put them in a vig/lynch pool over.

[skitter30]

@math can you talk about your oxy read?
ANd give me a tldr why you were/are scumreading me?

i feel like i've explained a lot of my oxy read? a lot of the routes/avenues he's been taking don't seem like ones scum would take
ctrl+F my ISO for "oxy"
he's on my list of people to ISO

You're kinda vague about oxy and you say things like 'he's dropping in [your] townlist (1065); and say scum!him would be buddying you (533) - when ruru points out that he *does* seem to be buddying, you say you'll just re-check your ISO but never really followed through; 'oxy could be the scumread that slipped by you but you want to check {scioness/ud} first' (885);

Your initial townread on him was never explained, and you're very wishy-washy about the read it seems, and you keep saying things like he's a weak townread that you're not firm on and that you need to look into more but you keep turning to other people before you do.

The bit about UD is a decent description of what I did. I think it's laughable that you find it scum-indicative.

Are you really trying to argue that it isn't scum-indiciatve to vote a townread?

except that exact behaviour from you is what put you as a locktownread for me because i determined it was outside of your scumrange

Yes, and drixx was also acting sketchy and we lynched him without a claim once he softed vt. Like I just think that scum!ofrhz is more survivalisstic and doesn't actively do things to put himself into the lynch pool

Also, skitter, last game you consistently described my actions as anti-town.

Why does this not play into your read of me this game? Because right now your read on me is basically, "I wouldn't do that as town, so he must be scum."

a) I didn't consistently describe your actions last game as anti-town. Some of them were (ie the first drixx wagon), and I called those out, but I woudln't use 'anti-town' to describe your play in that game in a holistic sense.

b) You aren't really doing things that are anti-town this game. My read on you isn't 'I wouldn't do that as town, so he must be scum'. It's that I think you're buddying math; that your read on ofrhz feels kinda forced (ie I don't understand the reasons you were scumreading him there, and the posts you were citing as being scummy weren't scummy to me); you voted a townread cuz math did, with like no discussion whatsoever (this is the main thing I have a problem with); you're building a team out of how many times tw interacted with people and this sort of evidence is kinda ????? and so it feels like you're using circumstantial evidence to build pre-flip teamreads.

1255 screams LAMIST at me in the very wrong way, not much about onions.

I'm nowhere near being fully caught up but i'd lynch in {sunshine, ud, ofrhz} preferring ofrhz right now.

Why is this LAMIST? And I dislike this lynch-pool.

[skitter30]

actually im not sure skitter is scum reading her.

Who is scum reading scioness besides Orfhz?

I'm ~nullscum on her; I need more content from her to sort her. In 1859 I got to town!her cuz we mindmelded a lot and like her thought processes made a lot of sense and I just didn't see them coming from scum. I don't have enough from her right now to see that, and I think her entrance was scummy.

It's more of an absence of a townread than an actual scumread though.

Although now that I think about it, she has a fair number of posts but Ithey aren't really .... memorable I guess is a good word. Like her content is just kinda there and very little of it is thought-provoking enough for me to actually, like, remember it off-hand.

Also her recent lynchpool is :/ . It's {sunshine/ud/ofrhz}, and I townread to some degree or another all of these people.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't actively scumread her, but I'd expected to have seen something I could townread/mindmeld over at this point, and the fact that this hasn't happened yet is beginning to concern me.

--

The bit about UD is a decent description of what I did. I think it's laughable that you find it scum-indicative.

Are you really trying to argue that it isn't scum-indiciatve to vote a townread?
Yah, actually, I think it's laughable that you look at that vote and 1859 and think, "Yeah, Oxy never does this as town."
But you do you, mate.

Yeah. I'm having a lot of trouble seeing you do that as town tbh.

I don't really like your reaction to this either, but I think I'm beginning to annoy you so I'm just going to drop this convo. I am still scumreading you and am voting you for it though.

--

Hmm, looking at the most recent vc, we're all spread out atm.

-> I feel like draynth is a compromise wagon almost. I don't know if he's been scummy so much as *absent*, and like Idk if that's a reason to lynch someone. Like it just feels ... lazy I guess is a good word. I don't like that oxy is on this wagon, and that he's in scioness's lynchpool.

-> I think UD is town and don't want to lynch him.

-> Scioness - read discussed above. I feel like I want to give her a chance to produce more content, but as I've been writing this, I realized that she actually has a fair amount of content and little of it has been thought-provoking enough for me to actually remember it. Given that I'm trying to read her based on how well I understand her thought-process and whether I think it's too nuanced to come from scum ... this is not a good sign. I actively scumread oxy though, and would prefer a lynch there, but I think I could compromise on scioness.

[skitter30]

I'm fine with him being a compromise lynch and/or vig shot, but the fact that just about everyone holds this opinion is slightly worrying me. Like it feels too easy almost? Too consensus-y? It's reminding me of how screenplay got wagoned in your stack-the-deck.

Like on play he's just kinda meh and I'm fine with it but the gamestate pointing to everyone being fine with it makes me a little bit suspicious.

You're basically saying that his read on you is lazy for townbinning you for effort/being logical? - do town ever read you this way?

And the premise of your current hypothesis about the gamestate is that town is scumreading you but that scum are hedging and not really committing and are lazy-townreading you?

[skitter30]

the behaviour is more likely to come from scum straight up

Is this trying to say that in an empiracal sense, you've found that this sort of read is more likely to come from scum than from town? Or that you just think that this sort of read is scummy?

and who says he's not the designated nullscumread from the entire scumteam

if i were scum with him he'd be the designated bus imo

Idk if he's a designated mislynch or if he's the designated bus. Either way, the gamestate indicates that scum's cool with it, which is why I don't like it right now.

--

I do think his reasons for tunneling in this game are super weird / often not really looking for actual scum motivations if that makes sense

His scumread on you feels more ... forced I guess is a good word. Like he's overstating the significance of things that I don't find to be that AI and using that to scumread you almost.

Yeah this is basically what I was trying to say here and what's bothering me about his tunnels/pushes.

--

Also, your scumreads at this point are me, ofrhz and... TW? Bearing in mind the last 10 pages remain unread, excepting your iso’d posts.

Oh, don't forget that he's scumreading me, even though he thinks I'm tunneling him the same way I did last time

(Which is an assessment I disagree with as well)

--

someone provide a shorthand of scum!oxy for me?

It's that I think you're buddying math; that your read on ofrhz feels kinda forced (ie I don't understand the reasons you were scumreading him there, and the posts you were citing as being scummy weren't scummy to me); you voted a townread cuz math did, with like no discussion whatsoever (this is the main thing I have a problem with); you're building a team out of how many times tw interacted with people and this sort of evidence is kinda ????? and so it feels like you're using circumstantial evidence to build pre-flip teamreads.

And last game, even though I was super tunneled, I was still capable of seeing some of his posts as being unlikely to come from scum even though I wouldn't let myself believe it. I haven't really seen *any* posts like that this game.

--

I really, really don't think UD is scum, even with daychat. His posts are nuanced, but like in a naive way? I just don't see them coming from newbscum.

Like pin's suggesting people are townreading him for effort. It's not that. It's just that I don't think his thoughts are faked or fabricated.

--

@tw: I like mindmeld with most of 1501 and it describes the problem I'm having with oxy's read progressions fairly well. (Except for maybe the following paragraph; not sure if I agree with that):

I’m thinking math was playing with him for a bit, and then he realized this and is trying to back off a little. What I really want is for it to have been in the scum chat that one of his partners was like “uh, math is playing games with you bro, maybe step off the gas a bit?” and they’re frantically thinking how to make it look natural for Oxy to be slowly reversing from that.

[skitter30]

Why draynth and not scioness?

All three leading wagons I'm either scumreading (oxy) or would be OK compromising on (draynth, with scioness somewhere between draynth/oxy), which is weird.

[skitter30]

@oxy: I don't think the things you're citing here are in any way similar to 1859. Like there she reacted to early pressure by basically getting into a 1v1 with you. She had opinions and was *stubborn* about them, and here she just seems kinda surface level. Like I really can't say what most of her thoughts/stances are offhand without like ISO-ing her even though she has a fairly significant number of posts. She just .... lacks conviction would be a good way to say it. Also she has pressure on her now so idk why you're comparing her behavior here to that part of d2, when she wasn't really being pressured.

Like I'm still waiting for that mindmeld to happen, and she just feels incredibly surface-level.

@md: I wasn't sure if you were saying that you had empircal evidence or not.

As for draynth, it's that *everyone* has him in their lynch/vig pools. I don't think he's done anything scummy. He hasn't been townie, sure, but 'not being town' != 'scummy' to me. And like, the fact that oxy is voting draynth over scioness here is sending up some red flags, cuz like draynth is the much easier lynch, and before I asked him about it, he seemed to be scumreading them equally (1375).

[skitter30]

This is not true. That was a quickly put together synopsis of my reads, but even here I have draynth listed before Scioness. I gave a much larger read list not much earlier where I explained I was reading scioness more townie than draynth.

I apologize, I forgot that earlier post existed, and only remembered 1375. I need to relook at your interactions with the draynth wagon and thus re-evaluate the draynth wagon in general, but it's going to have to wait till I'm not running on like two hours of sleep.

--

skitter, how are you reading TW?

Probably town.

How are you reading scioness?

--

Skitter in what universe is Draynth an easier lynch when literally no one is defending scioness

I think that scioness is fairly capable of defending herself and making herself difficult to lynch when she's here.

--

Maybe I'm just really tired but I read this like six times and I can't figure out what it's trying to say, or why it lead to an unvote.

--

your options are draynth and scioness, and

if you want to have shit reads, oxy

So things like the bolded are why I'm having trouble parsing your oxy read, because it seems like you have a fairly decent townread on him, which doesn't really add up with other things I brought up earlier:

You're kinda vague about oxy and you say things like 'he's dropping in [your] townlist (1065); and say scum!him would be buddying you (533) - when ruru points out that he *does* seem to be buddying, you say you'll just re-check his ISO but never really followed through; 'oxy could be the scumread that slipped by you but you want to check {scioness/ud} first' (885)

Your read on him feels kinda malleable and hasn't been consistent. Like you say you're willing to consider scum!oxy when other people are, but keep on townbinning him despite that. I feel like your actions (consistently trying to drive people away from the oxy wagon) doesn't match what you're saying (you're open to considering scum!oxy), and that your reasons for townreading him don't match what he's actually done.

I really, really dislike the quote that says your townread on him dropped as people were voting him.

I'm low-key beginning to wonder if I've read the oxy/math dynamic wrong, and that it isn't scum!oxy buddying town!math, but scum!math pocketing town!oxy.

--

skitter - meh I think MD has already engaged her about it. she would lynch me because I have not good enough content but I don't really have that much content to begin with? it feels like she wants to have that scumread on me since I have engaged her on giving me a townlean that I didn't deserve.

What I was basically looking for was a post like 1533 - it's nuanced, and by that I mean it picks up on a small number of fairly subtle details of ofrhz's behavior that I don't think scum would notice in the first place, and uses those details to explain a consistent scumread. That's pretty much the kind of post that I townread you for last time, the one explaining your ruru townread early on. The ofrhz read is also kinda contrary, like you don't really care what other people think about this read and you're going to pursue it cuz you believe in it even if that's not what the gamestate is supporting right now.

This post feels very, very, very similar to me to a lot of posts from last game.

It's enough to take you out of my lynchpool for today, actually.

--

Will Scioness have time to claim if we wagon her

this is actually a pretty gross reaction to that :/

a) You're not really defending yourself, but indicating that you still find her (and thus her case) scummy enough to vote her over

B) Why is your primary concern after she cased you whether or not she'll have time to claim in the next three days? It almost feels like you want to wagon her *to get her claim*, and not necessarily to like lynch scum.

[skitter30]

1533 was mostly a case based on misrepping me. She even misrepresented what I did in Newbie 1859.

I will go at it point by point but I would need to sit down and take time to do that. Not to mention it’s very tiring and unfun to engage someone who accuses me of dodging her questions when I didn’t and even blames me for making her post in a way that’s difficult to follow. Like wtf

In 1534, math explicitly said he wants to wagon draynth or Scioness. How was my question not a reasonable follow up to that?

OK, I'll wait for you to respond because I'm not sure I'm seeing her misrepping you.

I read 1536 as a followup to scioness's case. Idk, it feels weird to me that that's the primary concern you have over wagoning her, whether or not she'll be able to claim if she's on v/la.

--

I'm low-key beginning to wonder if I've read the oxy/math dynamic wrong, and that it isn't scum!oxy buddying town!math, but scum!math pocketing town!oxy.

@ruru - what do you think of this?

[skitter30]

Also Draynth is actually doing nothing except trying not to get lynched

Thing is that I'm not even sure he's trying that hard to do this.

[skitter30]

I'm low-key beginning to wonder if I've read the oxy/math dynamic wrong, and that it isn't scum!oxy buddying town!math, but scum!math pocketing town!oxy.

@ruru - what do you think of this?

I could kind of see this although I think Md has been more towny as the deadline approaches whereas I would normally expect the opposite if he were scum I guess?

Also do you think Md posts the quote in 533 if he's scum and Oxy is town?

(Also I think buddying is not really scum-indicative for Oxy and I know he thinks highly of Md out of game)

A lot of math's recent posts are actually scum-pinging me; I don't think he's become townie as we approach deadline.

And it's kinda obvious that oxy looks up to math; I'm wondering if math is taking advantage of that.

I think that 533 was a fairly lazy townread from math on oxy given that it wasn't actually substantiated by oxy's action. And once you pointed that out, math said something along the lines that you might he right and that he'd recheck oxy's ISO, but he like never followed up there.

I kinda feel like he was setting himself up to be able to vote Oxy if that wagon had gained more momentum, and once the wagon kinda fizzled out, math's townread on oxy strengthened again.

UNVOTE:

I'm not sold on scum!oxy anymore, and I need to think this through when I'm more awake.

I think that there's likely one scum in math/oxy, but that they definitely aren't partners.

[skitter30]

@nsg: what do you think of math's read on you?

[skitter30]

do i have to respond to anything you post about me

it's just tedious at this rate

go metadive me or something idk

If there's something I particularly want you to respond to, I'll let you know.

I'd actually like to try to meta-dive you, but realistically that's not going to happen before deadline.

i hope the follow-through on this blow my mind tbh

I need to re-evaluate oxy in this context, but it's not going to happen before tomorrow night, sorry.

P-edit: what changed since ruru wanted to wagon her?

[skitter30]

@tw: Yeah, agreed about red-oxy strongly pointing to green-math. I also think that red!math clears oxy.

I think that they're never partners here, but the pair has some really funky interactions that look like one of then is pocketing and/or buddying the other.

I really need to revisit this once I've had more sleep though to check myself and make sure that this isn't like some sort of caffiene-fueled conspiracy theory.

[skitter30]

Aside from Oxy-related posts which recent posts pinged you?

1348, 1356, 1423, 1458

I feel like the draynth push is lazy.

I hate his oxy progression.

I dislike how he said he needs NSG to post, you vote her and he tells you that voting her won't pressure her to post in an AI way, and then votes her to pressure her to post so that he can read her.

I kinda feel like he's hedging on his NSG read in genreal, but NSG herself doesn't think there's anything weird with his read on her, so I guess this point isn't valid.

[skitter30]

Since when were you scumreading NSG?

[skitter30]

Oxy today NSG tomorrow 3rd scum d3

Cmon lets get that perfect win

The confidence you have here in both scum!oxy and scum!nsg is kinda pinging me.

(even ignoring the pre-flips)

If oxy flips green where do you look?

[skitter30]

If Oxy flips green I'll reasses his reads as coming from a town mindset. He's fairly clever so there is certain to be something gained if he is actually gamesolving.

Problem? I don't think he is.

scum!nsg comment in 1624 was not 100% serious but following a red Oxy flip that is a good place to start.

Idk how scum!you plays; I've never played with scum!you. I kinda dislike the hedging on where to look after an oxy greenflip, especially in conjunction with the confidence you have that he+NSG are flipping scum.

I kinda feel like you're walking back 1624 after I asked you about it.

There isn't enough content there to like or dislike, it's just the slot and her quietness that are bugging me atm.

Like this doesn't match 1624

--

Like a lot of those posts by math make me feel like he doesn't really care *who* gets flipped, or what they flip. Like the draynth thing is lazy. The scioness push happened when a lot of other people were suspicious of her.

And the you-voting-math-voting-NSG thing isn't necessarily scum-motivated, but it's pinging me and feels kinda weird. Like it's a day before deadline, he's sitting on an NSG vanity wagon to pressure her to post after he said that won't pressure her to produce content in an AI way, and he's been voting there for a couple of days now and it doesn't really seem to have affected her posting patterns, or at least not in a way that's yielded any useful conclusions to him apparently, so he's still voting her just before deadline because ... ?

Like it just makes me feel like the lynch doesn't really matter to him? Like he isn't really trying to get a flip, or a scumflip in particular. Besides for oxy, he's recently been pushing consensus scumreads, but I don't feel like he's actually trying to get his scumreads flipped, or that he cares who gets flipped.

And idk, in 1859 he just felt so *right*, like he just bled town from very shortly after he repped in, and I just .... don't see that here. He feels wrong, and wrong specifically in some of the same ways that he felt wrong in MKUltra.

--

4 people will be due for prods later today, I will prod then during tomorrow morning's vote count if needed at that time.

Also, if prods are needed for that many people, I'll probably extend the deadline.

@brass: I just want to say that I greatly appreciate that you're so on top of prods/vcs/etc, and that you're so communicative about such things too

[skitter30]

I'm kinda getting cold feet wrt the oxy wagon.

I guess I dislike the draynth wagon less right now though?

But I don't really think that a lack of content/flaking is AI for him; nor is promising content and not following through. A quick meta-dive shows him flaking/replacing out of towngames.

DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK PROMISING THINGS AND NOT DELIVERING IS A SCUMTELL

#NOBAMBOOZLE

And, like, this isn't for draynth

He got lynched as town day4 in the Newbie 1858; repped out after a week of low content as town in open 692 (made some of those 'I'm reading now, sorry for the inactivity' posts without following through ); did the same in Newbie 1822 as town; got nk'd n1 in newbie 1820; got nk'd n1 in newbie 1817 (his ISO looks fairly active and contributing here); got lynched day4 in lylo as town in newbie 1811 (shared some self-meta here, and was fairly involved and contributing); jumped to scum!draynth in newbie 1803 cuz I got bored - had a few of the 'sorry for inactivity posts', was fairly active otherwise, was present but his content looked kinda empty; looking at some older games he got replaced by the mod for inactivity as town without asking to be replaced.

Like I just don't know if the lack of content is AI for him.

And a metadive indicates that the above *isn't* a scumtell for him; it's an 'I'm busy in real-life' tell and not AI.

And like from *Math* to push that without checking is pretty gross and lazy.

VOTE: Math

[skitter30]

And where the flying fuck did you get the idea that I thought he was scum for inactivity
The #NoBamboozle post was SARCASTIC
I've been very clear this whole time about why I was scumreading him
The fact that he barely plays the game is icing on the cake

I'm not reexplaining myself to you if you're gonna choose not to read my posts

As far as I can tell, the main reason you think he's scummy besides for activity is that he has a lazy townread of you. The problem that I have with that is that you brought that up ~800 posts after he did so, after having him in your lynch/vig pool the entire day.

Immediately after he had that read on you, I had him in my scumreads, and you told me that one of the reasons you didn't like my readslist was because having him as scum was a lazy/low-hanging-fruit-y read; you had no problem with his read on you at that point.

Because of that, it feels like you're looking for a reason to call him scummy that isn't just activity. Like that entire time between when he made that read and when you called him out on it a week later you pretty much had him in your lynch/vig pool for being dead weight.

--

Never once have I said that him promising content and not delivering or him just being not active in general makes him scum.

I didn't say you did.

Math said that, although I apparently was not supposed to take that post seriously.

(And then he says things like the following, which looks to me like he's at least partially calling him out for lurking cuz he's under pressure ...)

Draynth strikes me as the type that lurks it out whenever things get rough

UD is affectively voting him for active-lurking and beetle-juicing (I'm not particularly convinced he's doing either) 1279

Ap is voting him because he wants him to claim if he's a TPR and because he isn't providing content.

Oxy's at least partially voting him as a survival vote, and he said the following:

Skitter and Draynth switched places primarily because Draynth has been prod dodging for days on days, but also in part because of how strongly NSG feels.

--

Last thoughts

@skitter-

1560, 1582 - you were scumreading Oxy for a whole slew of reasons and those reasons suddenly evaporated because you became more sure of scum!Math and didn’t think Math/Oxy was a thing??? I remember town!skitter in 1859 being extremely wary of association-based reads pre flip. It doesn’t seem like any of your original reasons for scumreading Oxy were ever addressed, but you dropped them as of 1623

The timing of your Oxy unvote and Math vote is also uncanny; you unvoted

as the Oxy wagon was reaching a critical point

(I believe sunshine and pin had just joined the wagon, not sure if there were others cuz I’m too lazy to check) in order to start an entirely new wagon less than 2 days until the deadline. This makes me think you didn’t want to be responsible for an Oxy wagon

a) we established that I don't have some all-consuming fear of being on/responsible for townflips

b) I really, really don't think oxy/math are partners. IE, I think that there's at most one scum between them. IE that means that since I think math is significantly more scummy than oxy, I'm voting math. Oxy's still scummy. Math's just more so, and in a way that makes me think that oxy probably isn't scum even though I think he's scummy.

c) I'm aware about the pre-flip thing, but the way that Math is treating the oxy wagon makes me very uncomfortable. The way he's treating the draynth wagon makes me more uncomfortable. I'm pretty much at the point where I don't want to be on anything he wants. (I'm aware that he doesn't want Oxy. I think he's pocketing town!oxy).

('what about pre-flips'? Sometimes I feel strongly enough about someone being scum that I don't want to push anything they're pushing. Nobody ever really reached that threshold in 1859. Math did here; Mulch did here; and I probably can think of some other examples if necessary)

d) I'm aware that Math isn't getting lynched today. I feel fairly confidant that Math is scum. I don't feel that confidant about either Oxy or draynth.

--

Yeah I'm tearing my hair out on EOD Skitter. On one hand voting you like that struck me as ridiculous from scum!skitter but otoh it felt like she hadnt read everything properly...?

I *think* I'm reading things properly. I also haven't slept in like a week, so if I'm not, it would probably be a good idea to point that out ...

Also don't really think that 'not-reading-things-properly' is a scumtell for me; ask Oxy ...

--

do we have 2 competing scum wagons

is that where we're at

Pretty sure we don't. Gamestate doesn't feel like that's what's happening right now.

[skitter30]

HE IS LITERALLY DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE

You misread the reasoning for my scum reads and now this. Skitter, PLZ READ

That's not really how I read it, but yeah I guess I can see the other way too.

I was just saying I didn't want to be lynched, sorry Skitter

Ftr once it was pointed out to me that I misread this, I realized it was likely a PR soft, and not a VT soft like I initially read it.

Hence why I've been against the draynth thing this whole time

Also one of the reasons that I'm suspicious of math is cuz I low-key think he should have recognized that, and, like, laid off the PR soft instead of trying to lynch them for having a lazy read on him

Like, even AP of all people picked up on this and decided that wagoning him for a claim *if he's town* was a good fucking idea

[skitter30]

I meant because I don't think Oxy+Md are a scumteam

I agree 10000%.

if Math is town he's infinitely more valuable than Oxy (no offence Oxy, Math is one of the best town players on site)

If oxy flips town do you vote math tomorrow?

If math is scum, when/how do you propose dealing with him?

[skitter30]

Btw I have to metadive math for bussing meta (realistically not happening for a few days) but if scum!math busses, I can absolutely see scum!ofrhz being a bus.

[skitter30]

Not sure what you're asking ...?

[skitter30]

You're softclaiming pr already

I don't see why it's beneficial to specify the role in this situation

Specifying the role allows scum to tell, in 2/5 cases, whether it's VT fake softing a role outside the setup or not

Scum can claim without getting CCed, so making scum claim a specific role on d1 doesn't help much

Almost half of VT fakeclaims instantly out themselves to scum by claiming a specific role

I am like 99.99% sure Md is aware of this because he studies setups

I'm going to admit that I'm very tired atm and I think I'm not fully processing the significance of what you're trying to say right now.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that if someone is fake-claiming a PR, they're either scum or town. If scum if fake-claiming, they'll just pick a PR not in the setup and will be uncc'd so having them specify which PR is pointless. If they're town fake-claiming, there's a 2/5 chance that they'll pick a PR not in the setup, which scum will know, and scum will therefore know that they're a vt faking (and hence shrinking the pool of possible *real* PR's).

You're arguing that we shouldn't have softed PRs claim today in case they're actually a VT faking, since if they're a VT faking and trying to draw the nk, there's a 2/5 chance that by claiming an actual PR scum will know that they're lying and thus shrink the possible pool of real PR's instead of drawing the nk.

Do I have that right?

[skitter30]

Just for the record if math flips scum I consider you a viable partner

[skitter30]

UNVOTE:

Math anything in particular you want me to address from the last few pages?

[skitter30]

Got the vibe she was busy irl and didn't have time for this given how much she'd been on v/la and how she never really caught up

[skitter30]

UNVOTE:

Math anything in particular you want me to address from the last few pages?

yes, reconsider your entire view of the gamestate and get back to me, thanks

and explain why you didn't put in any of the work to meta-read me or partnerhunt for me

Yes, I'm working on re-evaluating the gamestate.

I kept on telling you that the metadive wouldn't happen before deadline - I had a major problem set due about an hour ago that I just spent an absurd amount of time on. I've been prioritizing 'not flunking my cryptography midterm' and 'figuring out how to write code to model the Newman-Watts varient of the Watts-Strogatz small world model' and 'sleeping' over doing a metadive of you.

[skitter30]

Got the vibe she was busy irl and didn't have time for this given how much she'd been on v/la and how she never really caught up

so NAI?

Yeah, I think so

[skitter30]

Math you're really that confident on town!oxy?

[skitter30]

draynth wagon was scum motivated through and through.

--

Ofrhz's vote on Math is actually pretty bad, especially given how he FOS'd me for voting there last night.

@ofrhz: why did you give intent/ swap votes with pin to be on that wagon?

--

Math's town.
Draynth's presumably a PR.

ruru's town.

I guess I'll listen to math on oxy this time even though I don't really feel it.
tw's probably town.

sajj might be town? Not sure. Really needed her to post more although her ofrhz case got townpoints. NM is pl-worthy though.

ud's posts are pretty gross but i really, really, really don't see them coming from newbscum. They're like nuanced but in a naive way. Probably town if there *isn't* a vig .... (ie I don't see newbscum focusing on what he thinks optimal vig strategy ought to be when they didn't a vig in the setup)

I don't have a read on pin.
I don't have a read on NSG. I kinda want math to figure her out so I don't have to cuz I think I've independantly misread her each time I've played with her.
my townread on AP has become signigicantly weaker.
I don't really have a read on sunshine.

ofrhz is scummy.
--

scioness/ofrhz isn't a thing.
sunshine/oxy isn't a thing.
ofrhz/ud isn't a thing.

--
That's where I'm at.

I'm ok lyching in {sunshine, nm, ap, ofrhz}

[skitter30]

I actually thought he might be bussing at the time

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking last night tbh

[skitter30]

No, cuz he plays exactly the same way as town and scum, which is to say it's like impossible to get him to explain anything, and that he'll like pop in to lolvote or lolhammer as either alignment.

Or he'll like pop in just before the prodge timer to tell people to vote the guy he's been tunneling all game and do like nothing else.

And he'll like naked vote without explaining anything.

[skitter30]

hence pl-worthy.

he's a good vig-shot too.

[skitter30]

That's the post that made me thing that if there *isn't* a vig, he isn't scum.

Like I just dont' see scum!him post about vig strategy like that and keep going on about it when they didn't put one in the game.

[skitter30]

Playing DA for a moment:
What easier topic is there to fake content about than setup spec and theory? Scum have the same opinion on theory as they do when they are town, no?
Policy lynches aren't really a thing. Not_Mafia is proof enough of that. Would scum!duck really have been worried about that?

@TW What is the disconnect? I'm not trying to be dense. I really don't understand.

I don't know how to describe it better than 'I just don't think scum!him posts like that'. It feels too ... naive is a good word. Too out-of-it almost.

[skitter30]

And if someone here is super next level scum it's probably Sunshine and not UD?

What are you thinking about sunshine?

[skitter30]

I'm feeling like he's here and around, but beyond his thing with ofrhz early game, and his thing with oxy just now .... I can't really think of much signficant that he's done this game.

Also sunshine/ofrhz isn't a thing.

[skitter30]

VOTE: AP

[skitter30]

I'm feeling like he's here and around, but beyond his thing with ofrhz early game, and his thing with oxy just now .... I can't really think of much signficant that he's done this game.

Also sunshine/ofrhz isn't a thing.

Actually hmm, now that you mention it the post I linked feels weird given his general level of stuff-doing?

It feels kinda weird and I can't tell if the anger is real or faked and it just doesn't feel like a *real* post if that makes sense?

But idk what you mean wrt to 'general level of stuff-doing'.

[skitter30]

Wait a minute I thought AP was 90% town to you

I lost the townread for *reasons* recently. I don't particularly want to elaborate atm.

[skitter30]

Yeah basically

[skitter30]

So help us figure out how to end day1?

[skitter30]

I just don't feel like he's trying to, like, solve the game since he did that conspiracy theory with you.

And he like, acknowledged that draynth might be a town PR, and wagoned him specifically to get him to claim?

[skitter30]

I know, but we're not lynching him today irregardless

[skitter30]

So, I guess he's a coinflip?

His actions have been scummy and he's not really helping town, which is the main reason I've wanted to lynch him regardless

I think "his vig claim is likely fake" is a kind of poor reason for voting him now though, even if it could be true

Did I miss something? cuz idk what you're talking about in the last line

[skitter30]

I legit don't know what we're talking about now

[skitter30]

Yo Ho, Yo Ho, a tinfoil's hat for me! Uglyduck and Sunshine are scum together, don't know who the last one is!

This one?

What do you mean by that?

[skitter30]

I’d buy

pintu’s theory if I didn’t know he was at least half wrong. /change of subject

Well, I'm more interested in why you think people would buy the theory of a you/ud scumteam.

[skitter30]

Such a passive-aggresaurus.

Seriously though, why AP.

Pedit: I know he didn’t take it seriously, I’m acknowledging that I deserve it :p

At this point, it's why not AP tbh.

Also you/AP could be a thing

[skitter30]

I actually don't think I ever talked about him being coached.

I just don't see his posts as coming from newbscum.

[skitter30]

The Worst found dead outside his home this morning, cause of death appears to be poisoned bread.

"I'll always remember the worst as a good customer" Says a bartender at the bar the worst attended the day before "He was a Vanilla Townie and tipped well"

wtf

-------

also open to suggestions as to what conversation could possibly have prompted killing a VT TW over me

Over you *and over draynth too*.

Like I can come up with some explanations but none are immediately obvious and all are WIFOM-y.

I guess what I'm thinking is what were you wrong on that he was right on. The obvious thing is clearly oxy. The thing is that he's a smart dude and I think he's aware that this kill implicates him? And like I don't think he makes this kill?

---

ofrhz(7) ~ Not_Mafia(88), pinturicchio(136), Mathdino(299), Oxy(275), ruru(219), AP(127), the worst(442) -- HAMMER

So math, wrt Oxy, how sure are you he's town? With your reads and town!oxy, this entire wagon on town is town except for NM.

I feel like an IC-led flashwagon on a VT hours before deadline probably contains scum? Math's town. TW's town. I am very, very confidant that ruru is town.

So that leaves NM, oxy/ AP, pin, that being how I'd order them from most-to-least likely to be scum.

----

I think he stayed off the draynth wagon. He was on the math wagon. Idk if those things are signifcant.

[skitter30]

VOTE: NM for now

[skitter30]

I don't really see scum motivation for not-killing here.

And I have no idea why a vig would shoot tw (especially when people were saying yesterday that a vig should shoot nm; I don't really think a vig holsters here). Given both of these and that there's only the one kill, the most likely explanation is that scum killed tw imo.

Math not being dead is indicative of either imo:

-> a jk exists and scum thinks the jk would be on math and hence didn't want to try to kill him (aside, I think that jk/ic is the dumbest possible combo of roles from a scum pov)

-> math's reads are upside down and they think he'll lead a lot of mislynches

-> some kind of WIFOM

[skitter30]

That's kinda what I'm thinking atm. That a JK exists, draynth is scum (ie and not the jk), and they were hunting for the JK so that they could kill math the night after they find the jk.

Otherwise I'm having a really, really, really hard time understanding why *draynth* isn't dead.

[skitter30]

More like if there's a jk scum thought draynth wasn't it.

@sunshine: individual's choice, whatever's contextually apropriate

[skitter30]

@oxy: yeah, basically. If there isn't a jk, I have a really, really hard time understanding why scum doesn't try to kill math. If there is a jk, I don't understand why draynth isn't dead unless scum thought (or knew) he wasn't the jk.

but like JK + IC is a dumb role combo from scum's pov, so like I don't get why that would be the case in the first place. And then we'd have to look for a team of 3 people who would like actually pick this, and I'm having trouble coming up with three people in this playerlist who make sense together who would actually do that.

But like if there isn't a JK why isn't math dead?
--

It just occured to me that a vig AND scum could have theoretically hit tw. It seems *incredibly* unlikely to me given that I don't think a vig kills tw here, and I don't get why scum would kill tw last night either, but hey, it happened before, and that didn't fuck town over at all

--

I suppose it's possible that a jk blocked a shot (presumably on math?) and that tw was a vig kill.

--

Knowing that scum chose a kill that doesn't exactly make me look great,

If scum were jk-hunting I think you probably aren't scum given that you thought tw was a vt.

--

If we knew this to be the case, this would pretty much clears at least Skitter, you, and me. I don't think any of us give IC!dino an entire second day to find a strong town read on NSG.

I feel like scum!nsg probably wants to kill math here before he makes up his mind on her, so not-dead-math might point to town!nsg?

If they're keeping Mathdino alive because of his reads, I think it is more likely because of the scum he is town reading than because of the town he is scum reading.

Agreed, but like, he's conftown and the keeping-him-alive-because-of-his-reads seems incredibly risky to me.

--

If they did choose based off of Math's reads then it is just ultimate WIFOM... for proof look at everything that has been said so far lol.

It's honestly such a bizarre nk with so many 'eh, maybe that's what they were thinking, who knows?' interpretations to it that I almost want to ignore it. But then, that might be the point

[skitter30]

How'd I possibly overlook that possibility?

VOTE: math

[skitter30]

VOTE: nm

[skitter30]

Scum!draynth and not-dead-math implies scum were jk-hunting and like I just don't get what combo of 3 people in this playerlist puts jk/ic in this setup.

Like who's the partners for scum!draynth that decide that jk/ic was a good idea?

p-edit: cop/tracker/draynth-scum doesn't make sense cuz what woudl he have saved you from? there's another shot that needs to be explained.

[skitter30]

so the only PR draynth can claim without getting cc'd is jailkeeper

This is making my head hurt.

In that scenario it's ic/cop/tracker (not vig cuz the one death). Scum draynth. draynth would claim jk so that he isn't cc'd.

So scum would try to act like it's ic/jk/{cop/tracker}, and shoot not-you in order to act like they know there's a jk in the setup and thus not shoot the ic because obviously scum!draynth-pretending-to-be-jk!draynth would protect you?

[skitter30]

VOTE: draynth

[skitter30]

I actually hadn't fully thought about the implications for his slot of my previous theory being false until now

Which theory are you talking about?

[skitter30]

Got it. I thought you were talking about some theory that you had posted that I didn't remember.

Kinda waiting for draynth to post.

Also I don't think scioness's rep out is AI.

[skitter30]

Other scum on the wagon could be Oxy or skitter, but skitter moves from NM to Draynth, so unless she’s bussing both her teammates...

I mean I alluded earlier about my early-D2-overconfidence scum team, which I will reveal as NM, NSG, and Oxy. I’m not confident on Oxy though.

I don't really think that me voting NM or wanting a pl on him is AI is a reason to not-teamread me with him tbh.

If you think the team's NM/NSG/Oxy, what do you think is going on wrt Draynth?

[skitter30]

Assuming that tw was the scum kill (ie and not a vig shot that interacted weirdly with the nk and/or theoretical jk), I don't think oxy is scum. A tw kill last night indicates either that scum were jk-hunting, or that they wanted to give the appearance that they were jk hunting, and oxy was hard-reading tw as vt.

The thing with draynth is that like, he could have just claimed when he popped in. At this point it kinda looks like he's being a bit evasive tbh since he knows we want him to claim.

I've indicated I wanted to pl NM in the last three games I've played with him; I was town in all three, and math and tw and nsg I think saw me trying to do that at least once apiece. I imagine that if I were scum here I'd do the same thing, irregardless of what NM's alignment is. So I'm saying that me throwing a vote on him isn't a reason to rule out him/me. (Also I don't think that qualifies as bussing)

[skitter30]

TW was one of the ones who basically claimed VT, tho. I'm not sure how likely it was to be picked up, tho. Even though I quoted it multiple times.

Although tbf I couldn't find where he had quoted it.

I *think* he was alluding to tw as one of those four people here:

and I'm not one of the, count em, 4 people who have inadvertently claimed VT this game

[skitter30]

I'm saying that tw's vt claim wasn't obvious (at least, it wasn't to me), and it would be weird for scum!oxy to have noticed that and then kill tw when it looks like scum were pr-hunting.

Like it's weird to kill outside of the ic. To me, that implies scum were jk-hunting (or wanting to give the appearance thereof). If you're tracking the people who claimed vt, it's really weird to kill one of them in that scenario imo.

[skitter30]

- we go to night 1 and they know there is Role X Role Y and Math!IC - If there is a JK they kill outside Math, and I do not get the disagreement here, but as Math has know potential of producing addtionial results.... why would they kill the IC N1 instead of aiming outside even without the JK in play? The last game I was in on this site, skum chose to kill the IC N1 and I thought it was wrong then too. Especially in a game like this where they have the Day Chat... The IC is confirmed town... but they are not confirmed correct. No one thinks that skum would see the advantage in playing off of that?

This kinda feels like scum defending a nk that town wildly thought was stupid.

The reason I am OK with a Draynth lynch is because skum both would lynch him if he was town and wouldn't lynch him if he was skum. However, to skum read him without considering the WIFOM alternative is (imo) super skummy. the fact his D2 wagon started so quickly is at least slightly suspicious as well.

Why wouldn't they have bussed him? And what's the WIFOM alternative?

Do you think Draynth is town or do you think he's scum? After reading this I can't really tell tbh. I know that you're OK with his lynch, but I can't tell why. Like according to what you wrote, you think that the fact that the wagon built so quickly is indicative of scum propelling it along, and that they wouldn't be bussing him. So why would you be OK with that lynch?

I'm in work at the minute will catch up and post when I get home

Okay, yeah. Draynth could claim Oxy's Mom and I'd still push for a lynch at this point.

Holding up the game is bad form.

I mean I think it's fairly apparent that he's going to lie at this point, but I feel like the lie itself may be instructive.

Also can you point me to where you thought tw vt claimed?

Like, suppose Draynth was cop and shared his result and then we lynched him because of wifom. Congrats?

He already said he wasn't. His options are jk (why isn't he dead?), vig (who either didn't shoot or inexplicably shot tw), or tracker.

[skitter30]

- we go to night 1 and they know there is Role X Role Y and Math!IC - If there is a JK they kill outside Math, and I do not get the disagreement here, but as Math has know potential of producing addtionial results.... why would they kill the IC N1 instead of aiming outside even without the JK in play? The last game I was in on this site, skum chose to kill the IC N1 and I thought it was wrong then too. Especially in a game like this where they have the Day Chat... The IC is confirmed town... but they are not confirmed correct. No one thinks that skum would see the advantage in playing off of that?

@oxy:

If this is the reasoning scum used to not-kill math, I suppose that I shouldn't be clearing you for thinking tw was a vt, but I also really have trouble seeing you decide to kill not-math for this reason.

Although you and tw had that thing, I really, really don't see you making that kill unless you were specifically jk-reading him.

[skitter30]

@skitter I thought you were clearing me because I was keeping track of VT claims, TW had softed VT, and any kill outside of Mathdino would have been performed with the intention of killing a PR.

I'm having trouble following your thinking. Why does the reason Mathdino was killed matter at all?

Yeah basically the first line.

I think UD's arguing that scum would have left math alive to lead town astray (and that therefore woudln't have been PR hunting). And I'm saying that I don't think scum!you does that either.

[skitter30]

Oh. I think that UD is saying that they would have left mathdino alive because the value of killing confirmed-and maybe-bad!town is less than the value of potentially killing a PR.

I might do that depending on how bad Mathdino's reads are.

=)

p.edit he explained.

Huh.

I would have thought scum!you kills town!math irregardless. But he was also townreading you, so nm on that front I guess.

[skitter30]

Great.

Draynth's scum, ud's probably scum, and the last scum is someone who thought killing tw was a good idea last night. Or at least, someone who didn't understand the gamestate well enough to get that tw was a weird kill. I'd bet nm.

If not nm, I'd go oxy, sunshine, or AP, but I think it's just nm.

P-edit: hi, that would be me.

[skitter30]

Tracker.

[skitter30]

Sunshine didn't go anywhere last night.

[skitter30]

Not really, cuz I kept forgetting to do one.

-> I realized that one of the reasons I'm scumreading math is not necessarily valid in this specific scenario, so my scumread on him has weakened, but still exists. (I'm not elaborating on this bit right now though)

This was me remembering you tend to scumread PRs. I thought your read on me was bad and I realized it may have been cuz of that.

Also ruru kept on going on about why I didn't want to dictate the vigshot, and it's cuz if there was a vig and we chose scum, it would have basically negated my ability to get anything useful cuz scum if they were smart would have just had the vig-ee do the kill and tracking someone who I knew would get vigshot would be kinda silly.

I was trying to find PR's yesterday to make the pool of people who could perform the nk smaller, but apparently I was bad at it this game. I thought AP may have been one but once you were IC and I thought draynth was a PR he couldn't have been.

[skitter30]

I think it's just ud tbh

[skitter30]

VOTE: uglyduck

[skitter30]

Tbh the only way the tw kill makes sense to me is if scum knew that the other pr was jk (or that they wanted to give that appearnace), so I started looking for people who would pick jk/tracker/ic, and the pool of people who might do that is pretty small. (and like you need three of them to be scum together too)

So that isn't really valid anymore, but that means we're looking for people who kill vt!tw last night over ic!math in the absence of a jk, which means I guess that they thought tw's reads were more threatening than math's?

I'm basically looking for people who thought that may have been a good idea, or who weren't engaged enough to care otherwise. We'd need like three such people to be scum together, and there's only so many combos of people that work together.

[skitter30]

Or it might literally just be for the WIFOM, but again, I think that there's only so many people who do that in that gamestate, and we'd need 3 of them to be scum together.

[skitter30]

hey skitz why not track draynth if you were hunting for PRs?

I thought about that and in restrospect I should've, but I thought he was a PR that self-resolve over night:

-> vig would have resulted in another death that he would claim (and if he was lying about claiming it he'd be dead tonight)

-> cop would just have announced their result today

-> jk would have resulted in him likely being dead.

The tw death really threw me for a loop and wasn't really compatible with what I thought would happen overnight if he was a pr.

I think I have tendency to overthink things a bit ...

[skitter30]

also it occurs to me that if pintu is town, draynth is just going to perform the nightkill every night anyway since it's not like he can be MORE confscum to skitter than he already is

Actually this is a good point and what's probably what's going to happen.

We're effectively cc'ing each other and leaving him overnight won't really provide a way to resolve it. And even if they can't kill me/math without outing draynth as scum, I'm unlikely to track someone else doing the nk while he's alive.

VOTE: draynth

[skitter30]

is it cop tracker IC? weird that is so strange *sarcasm*
also, no CC to either role? Fuck me again, but I think that screams that we still have one of those two roles that are not these players (putting aside a Draynth CC which would have to be looked at differently).

Skum is 100% in a town hard read right now. Also probably Draynth. And no one answered me before - I want to vote here but the L1 this early seems like a bad play.
Should I wait, or should I vote? #Clash

Pin claimed cop. I'm claiming tracker. Draynth heavily alluded to being a PR and used that to get out of a lynch yesterday. There's absolutely scum in the three of us, and in me/draynth if you believe pin.

I don't get why you think 'we still have one of those two roles that are not these players'.

Also draynth's at like L-3 if I counted correctly since oxy unvoted so idk why you're so reluctant to vote there.

[skitter30]

okay wait a second guys

suppose draynth is scum and doesn't want to scumclaim

if we leave draynth alive, scum can't kill me (because draynth is "jailing" me) and can't kill skitter (which would conf draynth as scum)

if we lynch draynth now, scum must kill skitter, and then kills from {pintu, NSG, Math} which is probably me

draynth alive:
- scum kills pintu/NSG

draynth dead:
- scum kills skitter/math

i kiiiiinda wanna leave draynth alive selfishly

Can we just like get a claim out of him first? If he decides to claim lolvt then this whole thought process is moot and we just lynch him today.

If you don't want to lynch him today, when do you want to lynch him?

[skitter30]

Yeah, basically.

Even if draynth does claim lol-jk at best all we do is push this debate off to tomorrow with me getting no new info overnight (ie best I can do most likely is see draynth doing the kill, which isn't really providing providing new info to anyone at this point)

That's assuming I'm not just nk'd, which tbh they might do irregardless of what draynth claims.

[skitter30]

And I'm saying that I'm effectively cc'ing one of draynth/pin, except that I believe pin and draynth's acting sketchy.

Like you're saying that it's suspicious that nobody cc'd me/pin when I'm basically the one doing the cc to draynth? Yeah I get that he didn't *actually* claim PR but he strongly softed and used that to not be lynched yesterday. Like I feel like you're trying to throw shade on me/pin and yet you're voting with me to vote draynth.

[skitter30]

If Scum kill the JK Skitter is toast. If they kill Skitter Draynth is toast.

these both rely on assuming that pintu is town

if we lynch NM and tell draynth to jailkeep skitter, that puts scum in the scenario of either confscuming one of themselves by shooting skitter or allowing skitter to get another track (assuming that draynth is lying)

i guess maybe we really should just lynch draynth, huh?

VOTE: draynth

I'm pretty sure that the only thing I'll see happening is draynth doing the nk though.

(Though he'll claim that I'm lying tomorrow and that he jk'd me)

[skitter30]

why don't scum just kill skitter in that plan?

Cuz I'm draynth's cc and when I flip tracker he's getting lynched

[skitter30]

Yes, but I don't think anyone's actually doubting pin atm.

Scum!pin means town!me and town!draynth and I see draynth jk'ing math.

I guess in the universe of not-scum!draynth, scum!pin does kill me overnight to get draynth lynched tomorrow? But I don't think that pin's scum though. Or, more accurately, between pin and draynth draynth's like a billion times scummier than pin.

Also town!me and town!draynth means the setup is jk/ic/tracker which is just like ...?

And jk!draynth isn't dead last night because ...? Scum!pin would be trying to setup draynth for not being dead last night imo but he's like ... not doing that.

[skitter30]

As fer no cc’s, if you can come up with a good reason that scum!skitter and scum!pintu decide to fakeclaim despite being broadly townread, I’ll call you a good bullshitter.

In the interest of being thorough I wasn't broadly townread.

[skitter30]

Yeah that's what I was going for. I do admit to playing up my disengagement a bit cuz I knew that ultimately I was never getting lynched yesterday.

And I know that I spew too much sometimes so I was trying *super* hard not to spew PR by mistake which I think made my posts more stilted/forced/careful then they usually are.

[skitter30]

math, are you still townreading oxy?

I'm low-key going back to the scenario where scum!oxy has town!math pocketed

[skitter30]

oxy, who do you think is most likely scum in me/pin/draynth and why?

(alternatively, who's most likely telling the truth and why?)

[skitter30]

lynch scum!draynth today, lose skitter (or maybe dino/nsg) in the night, and just start lynching unconfirmed players until we win

so where do you go tomorrow after draynth flips scum? and what happens if he flips town?

[skitter30]

If we leave draynth until tomorrow, and the team is something like {Pintu, sunshine, AP}, we might lose this in 5-player lylo with an oxy mislynch.
(

scum kills skitter N2

, we lynch draynth D3, scum kills MD, we lynch Pintu D4, scum kills ruru, 5 man of {AP, Sunshine, NSG, UglyDuck, Oxy} finds an oxy/uglyduck lynch often enough)

/paranoia off

I guess what I'm having trouble with is that this feels like you're undermining pin's credibility a bit.

I'm low-key weirded out that even in your paranoia-fueled scenario, you seem to be making the assumption that I'm town.

Also I'm wondering what happened to NM here. Unless you're assuming NM gets lynched today?

you're not confirmed from my point of view.

You preempted my claim yesterday because you thought I was scummy and that you could win the 1v1 (you were right) - Draynth is a similar situation.

You're dead wrong about me with seemingly no interest in reevaluating

And there are multiple teams in which this gives scum!you a good shot at a 5-player lylo mislynch.

It's not THAT far fetched.

And like you aren't having this reaction to me?

And the 'it't not THAT far fetched' kinda feels like you're looking for reasons to scumread pin tbh.

p-edit: although it might just be you're having a spat with pin? idk

[skitter30]

I'm low-key weirded out that even in your paranoia-fueled scenario, you seem to be making the assumption that I'm town.

actually, it's kind of the opposite.

I'm assuming that you're the most likely D3 lynch if draynth flips town

,

so you do less damage as fake claim than scum!pin

. If that assumption is backwards, then you can replace the conspiracy story with scum!skitter

Yeah I think the bolded is true. I'm having trouble parsing the italics.

[skitter30]

Ah, got it. So scum!pin is the worst-case scneario that probably won't get resolved for like two days is what you're trying to say?

Whereas if we just lynch scum!draynth today, we won't have to deal with that mess?

[skitter30]

I have issues with math’s plan but I can’t voice it ‘cause it helps scum more than town. But it kinda should’ve already occurred to scum what I mean, but they messed up N1 so maybe it didn’t.

Okay. Maybe if we change the question a bit...

Of the consensus lynches today (appearing at this point to be UD and NM) which one would we have less of an issue mislynching if that were to be the case?

If both were town, UD is lynchbait and NM would be getting policy/compromise votes imo.

The fact that there are like no votes on NM right now is really weird and part of what's making me kinda :/ about the gamestate.

And like when someone like oxy votes ud over nm when prompted it kinda makes me wonder why so many people are avoiding nm.

[skitter30]

But the game state seems super complacent for scum team {draynth, nm, ud}

Are we all assuming that they have all just given up?

yes, and that's why I'm a little weirded out cuz that means we have two wagons on scum right now and like the gamestate feels weird for that to be happening. and if we're wrong on one of them, you low-key seem to be encouraging that narrative and are like pushing ud.

[skitter30]

I really want to be voting draynth now :/

VOTE: not_mafia

L-2 I think

If I die overnight draynth gets like autolynched tomorrow, right?

[skitter30]

@math

If I die overnight draynth gets like autolynched tomorrow, right?

[skitter30]

You can talk during twilight till the thread gets locked

[skitter30]

Again, if I like die overnight please please please lynch draynth tomorrow

[skitter30]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not

[skitter30]

Oh ffs if you're serious.

Can we autolycnh draynth + pin tomorrow please?

I guess I don't die here cuz that outs both of them though.

[skitter30]

brassherald: Thanks for hosting!

[skitter30]

Also I'm kinda surprised scum didn't shoot skitter n1

I thought the only reason for her read on AP to change so dramatically is if she's a PR or she's scum

Um, yeah I kinda fucked up with that :/

I thought he was a PR and that was where a lot of the townread came from, but then Math was IC and I thought draynth was softing so he couldn't have been.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned AP at that point or voted him tbh. I haven't' read the scum PT yet but I'm guessing they didn't notice?

[skitter30]

I have a whole long thing that brass posted in the mod PT where I was just like wtf at the tw kill.

Like the tw nk was really, really, really bizarre from my POV.

p-edit: yeah that's at least part of why this was a fairly easy town win - half the playerlist could reach other fairly well

[skitter30]

Well, it looks like they didn't pick up on pr!me anyways.

Not sure what you mean?

[skitter30]

Especially in this setup, where confirming a pr is hard, so having the knowledge that a later pr claim is true is super valuable

In retrospect this is very true and def what I should have done.

[skitter30]

I think I know who you are now too tbh

[skitter30]

Yeah, I think I read your mind on why you townread AP and it's part of why I stopped pushing him, but I thought he was most likely to be scum especially after he softed vig

And then a few days later I figured out who he was and he became a super hard townread but I don't remember if I ever bothered mentioning that in thread.