Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Nauci]

Oh this is confusing

I've only ever played with Mathblade before. Sorry if I get that confused...

But hey just to remind myself

VOTE: Mathdino

Never played a game with an innocent child before!

[Nauci]

Oh I definitely remember you guys.

I just meant that I've only played with the other Math*, not this one.

[Nauci]

I've also skimmed a couple of games with some of you guys when casing other people, but I've only got solid memories of brass's play style. Espeonage is a dope username though.

[Nauci]

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

Oh god I'm already so many pages beyond and I barely skimmed page 1

But isn't it bad for the IC to be answering questions directed at unsorted slots

[Nauci]

Sorry I'm going to be V/LA for a couple of days. Doc just confirmed I have the flu. I'll make attempts to catch up when the meds kick in though.

[Nauci]

I'll add in the tinfoil - Nauci not addressing my naked serious vote with even a brief interrogative strikes me as someone intentionally trying to play cool over trying to assess people's reasoning - which seems more likely to come from scum also. It's even a thinner tell than the core one, but adds to a general sense of value in the wagon to my eyes.

1: Oops I didn't catch the "serious vote" part and scrolled past it thinking it was rvs reaction because page 1-2
2: I actually generally avoid people scum reading me for anything unless it's a disagreement on facts or otherwise necessary clarification, like if something I said was misinterpreted or misrepresented. I just take it as a prod that I should town harder. I also am generally not super active early day 1 because I'm not the type to shove into games with strong opinions based on a handful of pages, but my posting gets progressively more active as time goes on. Skim almost any of my games (except for that 200+ page abomination of a game). I hate defending myself and I hate that I'm writing about my own playstyle/meta here.

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

I guess that's a better case than the RVS, though, I did direct the question at Thor, so maybe he has further reasoning.

I'll look for Thor's response as well.

Functionally they stated it, I would add that the particular "aw shucks, seems strange" comment that triggered me specifically was the note about the Innocent Child.
It's like...yeah, and? Have you ever played with a Cop? What's even the point of the mention?
Just felt highly stilted and felt to me like a scum going 'aw, man, confirmed town to start the game with' rather than a more classical town response of 'yay, IC, pretty powerful town role'.

Why aren't you sheeping me yet?

I mean I know what IC does but I don't have enough experience to know the more complex implications of having the role around (setup analysis stuff like what was said about BG dynamics, interactions with other roles, WIFOM over if scum would try to shoot them, etc.). I'm excited to learn those things, just like for any other thing I've not played with before, like half of the stuff potentially in this setup. I'll have thoughts on what it means for the setup when I'm not so feverish, I'm sure.

btw if anyone was wondering

really the primary version of this setup that isn't townsided is the one where the mafia literally either pick nothing or pick daytalk (assuming they can actually get something out of it)

when i ran this setup it was lost because people were like "oh yeah that makes sense for there to be 4 PRs seems legit"

even with the benefit of WIFOM (MAYBE SCUM MIXED THINGS UP), this setup becomes breakable with too many power roles

so expect goons and not many PRs

I joined this game because I skimmed one like this when trying to understand Sky_Paladin playstyle. It seems super fun but my gut reaction was that I don't understand why scum would ever want to pick up much of any bonus except day chat. Like, why would they pick up BP when that increases the chances of a vig that otherwise wouldn't exist? But it's too complex to sort the other factors like vig killing town being advantageous to scum. I'm glad to see my hunch somewhat validated though.

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

Is it not good to be involved in the set up? Don't think we want to discourage potential town from reading through and making solve attempts...

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

What does WK mean? White knight?

Feel free to explain how it's actually suboptimal fmpov to policy lynch you given your meta

I assume you're grudging me or an issue because I have 0 idea where you get this idea that my reads are random or my meta shows that.
The fact you're wanting to policy lynch someone for

disagreeing with you

just blows my mind

Damn you hella aggro

-I could give you a long list on why that post of yours is flatout incorrect is that gonna help the game here? No most likely not if you want to sit down and have a chat like a reasonable adult after this then by all means I'm for it but me giving you reasons why what you said are blatantly false isn't gonna do shit.
-Policy lynching is moronic the goal of the game is simple but this is just a difference of opinion
-You are though because that's what broke the camels back you didn't say "why do you think Judge is scum" or ask anything like that you just said "wanna policy lynch Maria" without engaging me what so ever. You just now asked for it.
-I'm not trying to ate anyone at all everyone should know ate from me is NAI the point that you have a giant ego etc is still true and while annoying to deal with I can deal with it.
Pedit: Alright I understand that. Townreading someone for something they're unlikely to do is fine but I don't really enjoy reads that are mostly meta based trying to conf town someone based on info we have no idea about is dangerous and I rather just try to read the slot itself if he wants to go about the game like that it's fine.
I wanted to get the topics flowing but this isn't what I had in mind and my head mostly just hurts now

Dang yo are you always so back handed and condescending

This is more aggressively passive than passive aggressive

Like it's going to be hard to read this tone and agree with you even if/when you're not wrong

I'm glad you two came to an understanding. Now can somebody tell me what is it exactly that makes brass scum/scummy?

Yeah I didn't catch that either

The games I've skimmed with MD he's been a very influential and pretty smart poster so I hope you're not scum

I played a newbie game with Brass, and he was probably the towniest player I've ever seen in a game as town. No idea what his scum meta would be though.

Besides these hot takes I don't have strong opinions right now on anything. I don't know if I agree or disagree with the analysis on late confirmation or the subsequent analysis of JJD.

I know, I have a habit of saying I won't be available to post and then posting a bunch anyway. I suck at staying away and once bought wifi on a 3.5 hr flight just to mafia shitpost.

[Nauci]

I didn't read other brass games, but I was SE in one with him.

I have 12+ games under my belt (most on a different, private, non-mafia forum, where everything is different because our reads are based on already knowing all of the participants for years) so I'd say I'm semi-experienced, but nowhere near most of the regulars on this site. I've almost exclusively played in normal/newbie setups with maybe 3 exceptions, all of which I feel relatively lost in because there's not so much constrained setup logic to fall back on. I liked this setup because it's a bit of a mix between chaotic open games and normal games that lets me get out of my comfort zone a bit and probably learn a lot.

I only quickly skimmed the S_P Stack the Deck game, so I wouldn't say I learned much about it besides a basic understanding of the setup. I'll try to reread it during day 1 here, if y'all recommend it.

I'm generally big on research, and small on analysis/strong opinions without falling on a lot of data points. I get hunches but post meekly about them. I am usually pretty precise with my language though: if I point out a lot of issues or agreement with someone's posting but say that I do not read alignment from it, please take me at my word (which, based on experience, isn't going to happen...).

[Nauci]

I don't see why we would ever want to not criticize conftown's posting. TIAM was a confirmed mason in that abortion of a game and scum MVPed. I didn't think anyone could be that anti-town, but I should set lower expectations for humanity.

I think IC answering questions directed at other people is very bad practice, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nauci]

Wait what

A Bodyguard is a role who can target a player at Night to protect them. However, if the protected player is supposed to be killed, the Bodyguard is killed instead ("taking the bullet" for them, as it were).

Bodyguard only protects from a single kill. If multiple people try to kill the Bodyguard's target, both the Bodyguard and the protected player will die.

The wiki says BG can only absorb one hit, not both?

Oh yeah I remember the gist of that game (well, less the details and more of cracking up as the plot developed). There's a hilarious amount of potential for role bluffing in this setup, so I'd be ultra skeptical of any claims.

I don't usually use meta to convict people. I usually use it to exonerate them. People who are abrasive, quiet, or just plain weird are frequently stupid lynchbait so I do it to inoculate myself from scum being able to push easy targets.

I agree that the "let's not discourage potential town here" bit pinged me. Some combination of "what is this potential town nonsense, everyone is guilty until proven innocent in the court of mafia," and "mafia want town to rabbit hole setups because it's much easier to talk about than actually scum hunt authentically." I don't even dislike with setup talk necessarily, just... pro-setup talk sentiments...

[Nauci]

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

Oh god I'm already so many pages beyond and I barely skimmed page 1

But isn't it bad for the IC to be answering questions directed at unsorted slots

The only way slots get sorted is to die. So yeah, I'm goig to input and talk about as much as I can.

As an IC, what do you propose I do?

IC is the time that you can and should deviate from all previous posting strategies or tendencies.

You don't have to post anything which we would normally extract from people to sort your slot. No read lists, opinions, hot takes, theories, or hypotheticals. Just interrogate, instigate, and be extremely precise about what you want to influence, since you'll have more influence than anyone else for now. We only have to debate about how right or wrong you are, not your motivations.

As an IC, what do you propose I do?

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

as an ic you have the unique advantage of being able to pressure people without them being able to discredit your motivations

^What they said.

Awrighty just wondering whether you have an **angle** or just throwing some comments around

Don't be so applogetic, or I'll think you're scum. Lol

So, I like to catch up and post on individual posts that I agree or disagree with. I've never been great at making cases, just breaking down the game and getting better with reads as the game goes on and I see patterns/changes in play.

Pls don't publish How To Win Mafia and Influence ICs and delete the manuscript, kthxbai.

[Nauci]

Let's call it the weekend for now, unless this fever gets worse.

Stupid boyfriend disease vectors.

[Nauci]

I didn't comment to attack her for attacking, so much as the abrasive tone used to do it. It's difficult to read the constant backhanded insults without forming a negative bias, but I'll try to of it's her meta.

Personally I'm was wary of Math possibly trying to buddy me, but I have no problems with reading his content without an emotional reaction.

[Nauci]

Okay I'm still dying of flu but for the moment my 104.1 has dropped to a cool 101.9 so I tried to catch up. Brain is fuzzy af so I'm sorry if I misread stuff. Not going to go as tryhard in depth as I have in previous games because I won't be awake long enough to cite all of my sources.

Spoiler: On BG Claiming:

Why on earth would we advocate for a BG claim? Okay since I'm kinda new still, I'm going to break this down out loud for my sake:

If there is a BG who doesn't claim:

-BG would die in the event that BG tried to protect IC, and the IC is targetted. If an unclaimed BG dies, we can be reasonably sure due to low probability of scum independently guessing who the BG is, that the IC was targetted.
-Upon BG's death, we learn that it was a 2nd TRP.
-Scum may choose a different target because the IC may not die but there may be other, more powerful TPR to take a shot at

If there is a BG, who claims:

-Scum would almost definitely shoot the BG. We lose potentially telling information, even if NK analysis can be WIFOM.
-If scum doesn't shoot the BG, it'll be to make it look like a fake claim, and there's a possibility of mislynching.
-Scum know two of the X number of TPR in the game, narrowing down if they have to worry about much scarier shit like GC or Vig.
-There's a minimum of 2 TPR anyway, so non-PR town don't gain any info immediately
-IC knows they get to live another day for sure?
-Town has no idea if it's a real or fake claim

If there isn't a BG, and we claim there isn't one:

-Scum narrow down what TPR they're up against
-We lose IC for sure tonight
-Only TPR would glean any information useful for town2

If there isn't a BG, and scum fake claim:

-Town doesn't find out the BG is fake until the next day, based on NK
-Potentially lynch fake claimer day 2
-Town has no idea if it's a real or fake claim on day 1
-Fake claimer doesn't get lynched

I mean, not only am I not seeing why we would do that, I don't see how someone who has any experience or understanding of the game or setup could possibly suggest this in good faith.

Spoiler: On Thor

On that note, my hot take on all these Thor posts is that he argues bullishly with bad faith arguments. I think that saying voting town reads is categorically bad, or proposing bg claim, or even saying name/name format means scum team and not scum reads, are intentionally stirring up debate that's easy to post about without needing any genuinely alignment indicative motivation. I am highly skeptical that he believed any of those things. Admittedly, I'm often biased against aggressive tones and for pedantic ones, even if I try not to.

Spoiler: On Mathdino

I am wary with how often Mathdino has appealed to meta. It's one thing to talk about meta with people one is experienced with (e.g. I had a good game with brass), or to cite a lot of examples from previous games. But I feel like there's a lot of uncited chatter about how someone is not playing their town/scum game without actually knowing their metas, and being able to sound both authoritative and tryhard, relying on other players in the game not caring to research themselves.

I don't know what he has read on the others like Thor, but I've only had one opportunity to be scum and that game last barely a day and a half, with my scum partner accidentally giving away the game almost immediately. I had a great day 1 that game which IMO sounded mostly like my town meta. Every other game I've played I've been town, so I concur with Thor that I don't understand these statements about my scum vs town range. However, Math is accurate that I "buddy" people as town, it's just something I always do. Or rather, IDGAF how my posts look to other people, and will agree or disagree with people as I see fit. I get accused of buddying a lot because often, my views happen to align a lot with another player (which isn't even something I find alignment indicative).

His setup spec posts feel genuinely pro-town, among other stuff.

Spoiler: On MariaR

And to clarify, since I think someone asked. I didn't take sides on Mathdino v Maria. I am not even sure what the hell they were really arguing about. I just had a very visceral reaction to her aggressive tone and the specifically patronizing phrasing like

"like a reasonable adult"

so I impulsively commented on it. It definitely made it hard to read her posts at the time, but I've since gone back and read and processed the more substantive posts. I know it sounds like some sexist men can be assertive but women are bitchy shit but I'm pretty sure MD's challenges didn't drip with condescension.

I play Mafia like it's a courtroom where we're defendant, witness, lawyer, and jury. I prefer most information presented in witness form, and lawyer arguments to lynch once enough data is at hand.

I like Espeonage and Wisdom and TW posts. I don't want to put Thor at -1 yet so let me just throw a subpoena at VOTE: brassherald because you should come back and play with us with. The water's nice!

[Nauci]

Oops I didn't see a bunch of the new comments. Also oops I think Thor is at -3, not -2?

Eh I'll keep the vote where it is until we get the highly anticipated reread posts.

[Nauci]

@Math - please explain the concept of how a Tracker not dying matters one whit to a situation where you (I presume) agree that the BG is dead tomorrow unless he obligates scum into a suboptimal kill?
Like, I agree the BG won't get protected but...like...so what? Isn't his point to die?

Or just walk me through how a BG claim is bad - something you keep stating but haven't actually explained.
I'm dumb, as you keep calling me - so walk me through it like a dunce.
Why do you, AS A MODERATOR ON RECORD think it's a bad idea?

I worked hard on my post and you didn't even look

I'm hurt

[Nauci]

I'm still down with the flu but I'll probably be poking in enough to not warrant v/la or anything

[Nauci]

If scum find out that there is or isn't a BG in the setup on day 1, then they know that the chances of having a GC/RB/Tracker/Vig are significantly higher or lower depending on how many powers they grabbed. I think it is highly advantageous information for scum to know if the additional TPR(s) is/are BG.

On the other hand, town would have absolutely no way to know if the BG claim is real or not, and not be any more focused, until we saw who died N1, and even then, they can shoot elsewhere to implicate the BG claim as fake. Scum get certain info which narrows down their understanding of the setup by leaps and bounds, while town gets almost none in exchange.

I'm not sure how you're getting the "two confirmed town players discussing the day" part. How could we possibly know for sure if it's a real claim or not? And if we don't know it today, why reveal it now if you think we'll be finding out this info upon seeing the NK?

I mean part of the fun of this setup is that, while town can get an absurd number of PR, the lack of setup info for town keeps it kind of balanced. We've talked about multiple games where claims were bad or fake claims were made, like the Sky_Paladin one where scum managed to bluff RB to defeat a wagon, and rode that conftown train to victory.

[Nauci]

I didn't want to vote Thor until he addressed his bad faith arguments, but now that he has, I'm not seeing how he looks any better.

Math, is the case on Beef mostly based on his post about you?

[Nauci]

I think if we're lynching between Thor and Beef, the former is more capable of damage to the game rather than just not being helpful. I thought about meta divign Beef but honestly if he's unhelpful, it's not worth my effort to know bad-town is his meta.

[Nauci]

Thor it doesn't matter if you are pro claim or anti claim. Your opinion on how it works and its consequences are stupid.

Ordinarily I'd lean town on someone willing to go this against the grain but this is bad faith shitpost lobbing to distract us. I think Maria is the only one reading it as genuine.

[Nauci]

Accusing him of saying bg claim is suicidal is a gross straw man.

[Nauci]

@Brass

I really wouldn't TR people for calling out BG claiming. It's such a stupid idea I can't see the entire scum team being dumb enough to tank themselves getting on board.

I would read it as successful trollbait from Thor, prompting lots of pages where people sound like we're contributing by debating BG claiming but not actually saying anything sortable because the conversations revolve around the concepts of bg claims or voting town reads, not what anyone's motivations or opinions are on the content in this game.

I agree on early call outs, but we're pretty close on our strategies of sit back and see. I think that the bull in a china shop players are necessary to stir up content, and if it was a game full of players like you, me, and Dino, we'd make a whole lot of IIOA posts and not get anywhere.

Why do you prefer beef over your other scum reads?

[Nauci]

Shitpost got autocorrected to smurfpost lmao

[Nauci]

no it didnt, thor changes shit to smurf when quoting

Oh that is so lame.

This is the fastest moving substantive game I've had on here. Fun!

...but also I'm not getting any work done with tight deadlines looming. Fuck.

[Nauci]

I really don't want to TR Math because I think it's really dangerous to TR such an influential player in case I'm wrong. Also he's pushing the two people voting him. I guess I'm getting all WIFOM about whether 2 scum would be so blatant as to vote together, without town, for someone mostly town read.

But the all caps post gives me a gut read of town and genuine bash head against wall anger, especially when he's not simultaneously calling for Thor's head as much as I expected.

I am very weirded out by the fact that people haven't put Thor at -1. Or at least one of beef/thor.

[Nauci]

@JJD - reading your comment again and getting more of the gist I believe - the most I get is "scum can fakeclaim more securely"
Yeah...I guess?
But, then again, scum can do that if we run up a PR and they claim. And scum can (and should) be fakeclaiming regardless so...?
Basically you're pointing out that scum can fakeclaim and then acting like it's a revelation.

Just as a thought experiment to showcase why i disagree with your logic.
Why would a scum *not* fakeclaim

rolecop

if a BG didn't claim?
Because the only answer there is - fear of counterclaim/fear of having to explain lack of death at endgame.
The second exists regardless of BG claim.
The first is, at the point scum is having to claim, a benefit for scum if it happens because at least in death they out and kill a PR.

Is this a scumslip?

go ahead and put thor at L-1 then

Beef's the better lynch today, but, whatever.

VOTE: Thor

This might be L-1. I don't know and don't care enough to go back and count.

-2

This post makes me lean scum on brass

go ahead and put thor at L-1 then

does it look like their reasons for voting me are good

also recall that i stated issues with both thor and beefster before they voted me sooooooOOOOOO

Beef's reason was certainly completely stupid. I can't even quite decipher Thor.

[Nauci]

I wanted to hammer somebody today but I'm going back to fever sleep so I don't want to -1 and potentially miss some exciting shenanigans. Oddly enough upon a reread I was starting to lean more null for Thor until I realized he said rolecop instead of gooncop. The worst, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I'm a newb on this sort of thing. Can you elaborate?

I think the people I currently read as towny are, in no particular order and without too much strength of conviction, JJD, TW, Math, JMO. I had Brass on this list until just now, but now I have a hunch he's the traitor. When I post about the reluctance to finish off Thor, I was expecting commentary on the fact that it's been a difficult wagon to run up even though he's pretty broadly scum read. But instead, we got one of those reluctant votes that simultaneously tries to look town by being willing to vote, and dodges responsibility and conviction in the decision. Coupled with the fact that he fell into the trap of discussing agreement/disagreement with BG claim versus the meta around that discussion...

VOTE: Espeonage though

zzz

[Nauci]

Err oops i thought those were both TW posts.

Math can you elaborate?

[Nauci]

@Nauci - I'd sill like you to explain the strawman you called me on.

I called you out on making it but assumed the person you straw manned would handle the explanation without me putting words in his mouth. He did.

this is not a useful conversation to be having. i don't know how

you got the impression that i would choose to lie as scum in an open setup about correct PR play

. i've said EVERYWHERE that i would never do

that

, because that's suicidal in an open setup when everyone else has the same amount of information i have

How is the

BG claim

suicide?
You and I both know the BG's job is to die tonight.
What does it affect negative utility for town?

.

Also, that finishing question has been answered like 7 times and asking it again isn't going to refute logic.

Accusing him of saying bg claim is suicidal is a gross straw man.

oh yeah i'm ignoring those posts now

what i said is that lying about what good strategy is in open setups is suicidal, because everyone can see the setup with the same information i have

it's part of why i enjoy open setups, there's no "DOES SCUM HAVE INFORMATION THAT CAN FUCK US OVER HERE"

@Nauci

I feel like I'm one of the most sorted players in the game right now, so there's less value in seeing the timing and opportunity of my vote on you versus the half of the game that I'm getting null on.

I also haven't decided which lynch I want yet.

[Nauci]

@Math - That is actually a strong amount of confidence.
You're being very namby pamby here.
You literally come across scared to engage me, and distancing from past statements when I back you into corners, while all your posts not interacting directly with me ooze confidence.
why am I getting that do you think?

@JJD - pretty sure I'm at L-1, who is offering hammer intent?

You don't trust that I flipped through every page and double-checked that he's in fact at -2?

Okay I'm done engaging with these dumb ploys. Who would've guessed that Wisdom is wise.

[Nauci]

@Nauci, sorry for being short with you. It's easy to look over your inexperience fwiw.

Typos are not scumslips. Look for slips that indicates a higher level of factual knowledge, or appear inconsistent with player attitude/narrative bla bla bla.

Basically when you think you have a scumslip try to think about what part of being scum made the slip happen. In this instance IMO it was a clear typing error. There's maybe stuff we can learn from the typo but it seems a far reach to call it a scumslip.

IME a genuine scumslip is very rare.

I'm not putting enough weight on it to hammer but IMO, "rolecop" and "gooncop" are different enough that it's not just any typo like "RC" vs "GC." I think there's a chance he typed rolecop because he had already been typing rolecop.

Elsewhere.

[Nauci]

Cool. Now you're straw manning my "gross straw man" comment as "scummy straw man."

[Nauci]

Damnit this is exactly the sort of reason why I was personally refusing to put him at -1

But also Thor wtf

Thoughts beyond hot takes tomorrow maybe

[Nauci]

(Refusing to do it unless I was actively around, that is.)

I'm mostly over this flu now, at least.

[Nauci]

VOTE: brassherald

[Nauci]

Y'all blitzed this thread so much this morning I just finally finished reading in order to type up my thoughts. There were many thoughts and I don't remember all of them now, but here goes nothing.

501: Nothing
520: Daytalk + Rolecop
530: Daytalk + JOAT
539: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
548: Nothing
557: Rolecop + JOAT
574: Daytalk + Rolecop (I played this!)(I also am one of few people with access to this mafia PT, which has still not been archived after 4 years)
582: Recruit + Rolecop (I won this!)
594: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
622: Recruit + Rolecop + JOAT
644: Nothing
651: Recruit + Rolecop + Bulletproof
663: Rolecop
684: Rolecop + JOAT
711: Recruit (I modded this!)

I stand corrected. I do think it's pretty -EV to select Rolecop just to add another TPR that needs to be rolecopped/killed but that might be because I generally think MS PR play is hilariously obvious.

Scum tends to lose the more they pick I think. Not a 100% rule but it's definitely a trend.

Innocent Child is good when played well.

Also this setup is for some reason sometimes run as 12p and sometimes as 13p. Dunno how much that affects the balance.

I'm pretty much 100% convinced that Mathdino couldn't possibly have been an original scum. There's no universe in which WIFOM or anything else would have him pick up a rolecop.

In addition, I'm willing to bet that the rolecop came with recruit or daychat.

How often does scum just pick nothing or pick only daytalk? I recall someone in the last game was talking about taking the two goon buffs to nullify GC which was interesting. Leaning on better setup specers than me as to whether this would actually work/whether people are likely to come up with it.

Last Stack the Deck Creature/Jay slot would have been a great d1 lynch until that damn claim. IC feels like an exceptionally good roll in this setup.

Doing this either:

- Creates three useful TPRs anyway
or
- Creates four TPRs that aren't Goon Cop

I'm generally of the opinion that the claimspace is more valuable than anything else.

At the very least, given the caliber of the majority of players here, I'd definitely expect a lighter scumteam. Especially after it's pretty much MD consensus that less is more.

I think this plausibly narrows down the pool of OG scum possibilities.

btw math, looks like you were wrong
scum had a rolecop so far and I doubt thats the end of it
just getting a rolecop when it adds a role to deal with feels silly

I'm actually willing to bet that if there's a RC, they picked all 3 bonuses, but at least 2. I'm also surprised how long it took for people to start setup speccing on those flips.

Vca heavily suggests scum in brass, duck, MariaR yeah

Still never lynching Nauci, that shit was townier than jmo

Also sidenote I correctly townread her team mafia tiebreaker when my team didn't so lol suck it my team

tryna get me killed or somethin brah?

Oh yeah I also have a tell on Nauci shhhhhh
If you guys lynch her after I die imma be mad
Like seriously people keep killing me and lynching my townreads

o_o what's my tell

when I first started playing mafia (on a forum of people who've known me for years though) I used to get mislynched all the damn time

I guess I'm doing better!

ill reread but i think math might be the traitor here

I've been musing on this since d1 but it's a hard sell

I'll help with that when I'm not phoneposting.

Also to say I'm jaded about being a vt would be a gross understatement.

The scumslip is calling an absolute that isn't true then chasing it because you know it isn't true.

did you just claim vt

what the fuck

@Wisdom: I', not even sure there is one. I said earlier that Scum might have also recruited their Traitor so Beef knew he was hammering Town for sure.

ok even in that case, who is the third scum?

Espeo or Nauci

wat

@Dino: Are you scum, mate? I'm pretty much weirded out by you 2nd guessing me here.

I also am not happy with us 3 going round and round in circles with everybody else sitting on the sidelines. I want everybody to come say their piece and get interrogated.

Every time I went to post there was another page to read T_T

Btw, did you guys read the competition tiebreaker? I laughed at GiF's gambit. I loved it. Just saying.

I consider GIF a god now

arguing with Sky was fucking infuriating but GIF made that game worth it

and anyone who didn't TR sobolev is bad at reads holy shit

I almost claimed doctor to try and eat an NK that one night. Thank fuck I decided against it

Btw, did you guys read the competition tiebreaker? I laughed at GiF's gambit. I loved it. Just saying.

yeah i locked sobolev space and nauci as town and then NSG was like "nah space is so scum" and hard disagreed with me about nauci

that's honestly my conftown trump card this game because like i said i only knew nauci was town in the tiebreaker because i had already did basic meta on her in this game (i have receipts and dw i did not talk about ongoing games)

over the course of tiebreakers i found a major major towntell on nauci though
and if this game goes like others, i'm going to be killed/lynched and nauci is gonna get put back into the lynchpool afterward and i'm gonna get super annoyed in the dead thread
so uh
trust me thanks

Seriously I'm going to get so annoyed if you keep posting about this "tell" thing

So either explain it or stop

So, I was in court the whole morning for a stupid case I'm handling and just sat down to eat lunch.

I am wondering about one thing as I catch up, put food down my gullet, and process information. I see a bunch of stuff about speculation as to whom the traitor is. I've never played with a traitor in the past. How do you differentiate between normal scum and traitor scum in your scum hunting?

I feel like you wouldn't normally ask a question with answers this obvious.

Hot takes out of the way, analysis coming up after lunch

[Nauci]

Quick responses while I type up my mega analysis post

@Dino I didn't mean you were trying to get me lynched. I meant your NAUCI BASICALLY IC shit is going to get me shot bruh. If you angled any harder on it I'd think you were the traitor pointing your goon at me.

I change my mind on the brass question. Reread the newbie game we were in and he was constantly asking for elaborate explanations and overthinking simple stuff like this. I just hate all these dodgy I'M TOO BUSY TO POST posts and am used to seeing more substance from him

Also, I'ma need you to link some games where you corrected rooted out TPR.

[Nauci]

Lol I have to say I asked because how did you not see BG!Thor coming

I was egging on the wagon just to see who bit but thought he was like Sky_Paladin round 2

I gotta wonder if beef was trying to hide something with the lolhammer or just thought he was toast and could at least make it to day 2 this way

[Nauci]

VOTE: UglyDuck pending full analysis megapost (this'll take some time...)

[Nauci]

Had a write up but decided y'all don't need to read my thoughts because you already sorted me

Town

:

Jmo - Our hero IC
Nauci - Innocent 'lil me
Thor - Hero IC's pro bodyguard sidekick

Towny

:

JJD - If JJD is scum then I give up because he's too good

Townish

:

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW
-MariaR - weird hunch

Unsorted

:

-Brassherald - conflicted between town lean and scum lean

-Wisdom - I don't fucking know I can't read this at all
-Espeonage - I don't fucking know here either

Mathdino - I keep moving between towny and unsorted because I'm so conflicted for a bunch of reasons I'm too lazy to write up

Scummy

:

-UglyDuck - lurkscum

Beefster - I want to say skum for not knowing I was even in the game but no. completely null at this point, just a string of reads lists.

Based on how fake beef's comment on Math was, it feels totally plausible that this ploy was contrived. UD commenting on it makes it sound worse to me.
Read list was towny but that was also 400 posts ago.

Scum

:

-Beefster

Not-OG-scum

:

-Math
-Wisdom

[Nauci]

Does prod timer reset after night phase?

[Nauci]

This page

http://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l1wsx ... o1_500.jpg

[Nauci]

err the page before

but also this one

i need to go lie down

[Nauci]

i dont think the goon mention is important either
i saw it as other word for "main scum"

accurate

[Nauci]

I can't figure out wtf espeonage is doing

or what any of the theories Maria has mentioned mean

I'll try again after a nap

[Nauci]

my mental image of Maria is Elsbeth Tascioni

[Nauci]

I livejournaled it to the mod, actually

it was only 50% complete though i stopped taking notes while reading wisdom iso

[Nauci]

Are there specific segments of my write up you want me to post

[Nauci]

I'm surprised people got off of Maria's ass as quickly as they did

I'll try to get to those this afternoon if no one lolhammers

[Nauci]

UNVOTE:

[Nauci]

VOTE: espeonage

[Nauci]

Back in the hospital tonight; occasionally checking from mobile

No idea what the vc is but I didn't think esp was in any danger of being lynched

Don't think I want the game state to advance until UD and Brass post

TW your posts today are a dramatic change from yesterday

I also don't understand your theories at all (I'm not even sure if I understand what your theory is, much less how it works). Can you take another crack at restating it? Post your "more investigation."

[Nauci]

Upon a reread of the opening few pages it looks like I misunderstood s couple of things, so I'm no longer opposed to this:

VOTE: the worst

Gief us your

sekrits

thought process

[Nauci]

that's a shite response

ooooo i get the good drugs now

peace out y'all

[Nauci]

VOTE: UglyDuck

Welcome back

I'm having a really hard time taking that claim even half seriously

Why JJD

[Nauci]

You legit thought JJD could be goon to beefster's RC?

[Nauci]

I need you to explain why Math is "obvscum"

[Nauci]

scum don't get to choose which of them get which modifications

oh

that should get clarified in the rules

[Nauci]

Lynch the worst --> shoot Espeonage --> lynch UglyDuck --> shoot/lynch MariaR
this wins the game 90% of the time
track/roleblock/cop wisdom or me if there's actually another PR out there

alternatively if you guys wanna be cowards about it
Lynch UglyDuck --> shoot Espeonage --> lynch the worst (after his result) --> shoot/lynch MariaR

I'm not really understanding your "shoot espeonage" thing

Are you saying he could be scum, or is this like a policy lynch for VT claiming?

[Nauci]

was that hammer

[Nauci]

but i hef so meny questions

[Nauci]

everyone hold the fuck up

pls no hammer

i have many thoughts to think but I'm still high on morphine

we have so many days left let's not rush

we could wake up 4-2 tomorrow if everything gets fucked up

[Nauci]

nothing about d2 has made any sense goddamnit

TW and UD made smart words on D1 IIRC but now sound like I'm the least drugged one here

I haven't sorted out Math motivations

and I need to ISO wisdom again because I can't tell if scum or wise man from the mountain

[Nauci]

flu is over but my autoimmune disease had a flare up of the decade

[Nauci]

I would like to hear from jjd and esp on whatever the fuck happened in the last 5 pages

[Nauci]

VOTE: UglyDuck

Welcome back

I'm having a really hard time taking that claim even half seriously

Why JJD

And I'm having hard tome seeing how tw's claim nakes you switch your vote from Espeonage to UglyDuck!

No chance of rolecop+daytalk.

Why?

In fact, I'd need a theoretical run down of all possibilities and whey they don't make sense. In my world, daychat+BP+RC makes sense because GC becomes useless, vig becomes 66% useless, RB becomes 33% useless and Tracker becomes 33% useless.

This is basically how A50 approached that game you were modding, and if you think the worst is scum and used his knowledge from that game then it doesn't make sense for him to pick only 1 modification, and it becomes far more risky to claim here.

On the other hand, tw didn't really have much room left to hide being @L-1 with intent stated.

either that or hes trying to out pr(s) before he dies

If I was scum and trying to out the PRs I'd be claiming VIG! Whether they pick one modifier (know there's no other PT than the vig now), 2 modifications or even 3 modifications, the only one that both counts and they know exists is the vig. Tracker maybe next on the list of priorities if they did pick 2 or 3. GC either doesn't exist, or is harmless.

it doesn't matter if he knows or not

he thought that the worst was claiming goon when really he was claiming goon cop

this indicates that he was completely unaware of the power roles/modifications in the first place

or that he was playing dumb

am reading, 10 min pls

[Nauci]

Oh god I forgot I quoted all of those

[Nauci]

VOTE: UglyDuck

Welcome back

I'm having a really hard time taking that claim even half seriously

Why JJD

And I'm having hard tome seeing how tw's claim nakes you switch your vote from Espeonage to UglyDuck!

I switched to UD because he had made his first post in like 6 days so I could finally interact with him again

No chance of rolecop+daytalk.

Why?

In fact, I'd need a theoretical run down of all possibilities and whey they don't make sense. In my world, daychat+BP+RC makes sense because GC becomes useless, vig becomes 66% useless, RB becomes 33% useless and Tracker becomes 33% useless.

This is basically how A50 approached that game you were modding, and if you think the worst is scum and used his knowledge from that game then it doesn't make sense for him to pick only 1 modification, and it becomes far more risky to claim here.

On the other hand, tw didn't really have much room left to hide being @L-1 with intent stated.

Vig is never useless. If the target doesn't die, then it functions like a cop because only scum have BP. I'm sorry but after this post I'm not trusting any of your reads.

RB/Tracker are also not "33% useless" and can be used to confirm lots of stuff. And also they can CC bluffs. This was just a ridiculous speculation.

GC is the only claim that's almost 100% safe to make because he knows exactly who wouldn't get dinged already. It can only break if someone CC's. What confuses me is why he would check you or Math, and not one of the people the game is having trouble sorting. It makes sense as scum to claim not goon on the most town read player in the game (you), but not as a town GC because it provides no value to the game. And he said he'd check math after like 10 pages of "yeah math definitely isn't an original goon" chatter. At best we have a uselessly anti-town GC here.

either that or hes trying to out pr(s) before he dies

If I was scum and trying to out the PRs I'd be claiming VIG! Whether they pick one modifier (know there's no other PT than the vig now), 2 modifications or even 3 modifications, the only one that both counts and they know exists is the vig. Tracker maybe next on the list of priorities if they did pick 2 or 3. GC either doesn't exist, or is harmless.

LOL

I'm sure that would prompt a vig counter claim.

Via bullet. At night.

it doesn't matter if he knows or not

he thought that the worst was claiming goon when really he was claiming goon cop

this indicates that he was completely unaware of the power roles/modifications in the first place

Yeah I'm skeptical because I think that both ducks went from intelligent-enough posts to HURR DURR I KANT REED 2 GUD

or that he was playing dumb

^

I currently trust Wisdom right now, and think JJD is town. At a bit of a loss on Brass and Maria.

Super confused about a lot of the grand statements Math has made. Why would town!tw mean scum!UD?

And just to humor me here, what's the worst that can happen for town if TW is allowed to live the night and fake another result?

[Nauci]

I'm shocked that TW didn't claim his question in early game was a GC crumb.

[Nauci]

@Nauci: Let me elaborate on the bit about Vig shooting BP thing.

Let's say you arte a Vig and I'm a BP Mafioso. You shoot me and I don't die. You come into the day and out yourself to claim the guilty. What do I do? I simply claim RB who blocked you. It either passes or I get CC'd and would have outed 2 PRs already. Not too bad if you ask me.

I can't dignify this with a response other than giggling tbh

[Nauci]

If you were scum bp you'd claim big

And when vig fails to murder you that night

And you show up alive, a claimed vig, the next day, not shot by scum, we'd all believe your vig claim and let you live happily ever after

K

[Nauci]

I don't understand why UD claimed

[Nauci]

The amount of sway Math has over this game makes me nervous so I'm doing some rereading to see what the most bad scenario could be if Math turns out to be scum

Pending that, I'm generally okay with a TW lynch because i absolutely cannot fathom why JJD would be a good GC candidate for N1

[Nauci]

bleeding profusely brb

[Nauci]

since there's a good chance that you get lynched, give us a final reads list pls?

[Nauci]

what's the vc rn

[Nauci]

Okay out of work woo really annoyed I wasn't around to def thor more shouldn't have tried to lurk but meh what you gonna do.
What is puzzling me is the fact Beef basically scumclaimed with his hammer. Why though? Yes he was getting scumread but the fact he kinda just scumclaimed with the "lol" not even putting a reason behind the vote is what makes it suspect to me it makes me feel like scum have more then just a rolecop cause I don't see why Beef just gives himself like that it also makes me think 1 person was trying to bus Beef early on cause you don't just lol bus a rolecop if that's your only pr. Why would you lol hammer like that? The 2 main things that come to my mind is A) Beef's teammates were in a really good spot and wanted day to end or B) His teammates were looking bad and he panic hammered. I'm trying to debate what one is more likely.

The second thing is the IC kill it makes me go "wtf" because killing an IC one that was lurking and not doing much is objectively bad compared to going for other kills that can be pr and assuming scum have more than a rolecop that's a death sentence my first thought was "it has to be noob scum" but still wouldn't noob scum understand that with the pr's they have killing the IC is dumb? I then thought that it could be pros wifoming but as I said before wifom can only get you so far before you get checked it's stupid.

After rereading these I think I get the gist now. I would be on board with the theory that beef's mate was in good standing while he fucked up so he would lolhammer even if it meant only 1 more day to live.

VOTE: Math lmfao still at page 20

D1 paranoia here was this is the first time Math hasn't tried to read me by like page 3. I was trying to work out if he had me pinned for a future mislynch but afrer one post (I'll find it if ppl want) I figured he was just being cautious bc he's underestimated my scum range before.

Lukewarm associatives and WIFOM about how scum!tw would play with town!math after our last game noice

The beef hammer makes me think scum were in a good spot thats what makes me pull to that side I don't think scum beef hammers that when brass is obv the next person to be lynched that just feels stupid it's why I'm looking at players like Wisdom as I said before his stance with Beef was ehh but that's not the main reason I think he should be lynched I think Wisdom is a smart enough player to know how to avoid situations that would put him is an awful spot like this. I think 1 scum is in Math/Wisdom but not both given their interactions because bussing with assuming scum have more prs=more town prs is suicidal at this point. Esps push also comes from town his tone also feels the same with Steam mafia that just ended I'm pretty good keeping him as town. I need to re read ugly cause I've mostly ignored that slot but first thing that came to mind is to put him in the same slot as brass

01. the worst
02. Nauci
05. brassherald
07.

Espeonage

08.

MariaR

09. Wisdom
10. UglyDuck
11.

Mathdino

12.

Judge Joseph Dredd

People that don't select the rolecop then kill the IC striked.

Need to read TW's scum PT in Earthbound, forgot to do that.

Not sure about Wisdom kill strategy.

Current hot take is that UglyDuck is a goon and TW is the traitor. Wisdom almost certainly scum if it's not either of the ducks.

I know it's dumb self meta but I'd like to point out that there's really no world where I'd look at a Stack the Deck setup and think that taking a rolecop would be a good idea. Even though I'd not played this before, it seems pretty obvious that scum advantage comes entirely from the openness and the more options picked, the worst it'd be. I'd probably pick up daychat as the only thing.

[Nauci]

I've reread day 2 and am pretty comfortable with a TW or UD lynch and I hope the other one gets vigged

last call for input from anybody else I guess

[Nauci]

wat

[Nauci]

tw I'm PLing you our next game together

[Nauci]

honestly voting the worst really feels like this sometimes

Missing and hitting an innocent baby instead?

[Nauci]

Anyway I'm guessing this is my farewell cruel world because I don't think I'll be making it through the night when I'm the towniest one here

What should my esoteric last words be

[Nauci]

nauci you seriously still believe TW is flipping town here?

No I just wanted to make the joke about your gif

[Nauci]

Rosebud

[Nauci]

This game was SUPER fun.

Thanks all!

[Nauci]

Remind me not to try and reverse psychology again lmao

When I was VT I cried about being set up as the night kill to draw them away from the PR in my last game, so I thought if I did it again that mafia would think I was VT

RIP

[Nauci]

Thanks HWS!