Open 739: Epic Duel [Game Over]

[Light Ethos]

Will be caught up in ~12 hours. Have had a busy few days.

[Light Ethos]

Leaning strongly towards Garmr town. I don't see the type of righteous indignation in 281 coming from a scum player who admits to being toxic at times. I would expect additional toxicity.

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: Shoshin

I see minimal effort from her ISO. She spends much of her time focusing on RC, first saying that he's scum, then later claiming that if he flips town she'll look into his reads. Shoshin seems like she's content to just float through this game, and I don't like it.

[Light Ethos]

Well, I would put it with me on shoshin. Claiming that we should follow up on RC's reads (as though RC has some inside information which we know to be false) but not putting a vote anywhere and then jumping on as soon as someone puts a vote up - scummy.

Why would you think this is scummy? What's the scum motive in following RC or saying we should follow his reads?

I will answer this too since I'm voting you. I find that following the reads of a dead player is a low effort way of playing the game. It's a reasonable way of active lurking. Active lurking is not town motivated. Town should be looking for scum, not making a few throwaway comments and then sheeping dead town players' reads or logic.

For the record, it's especially not scummy for me. I can point you to multiple games where I follow players I trust (and RC is one of those, especially after seeing his flip as town).

Then as stated above, it's NAI at best. I don't see why a town player would play the way you have, but I can easily see how a scum player could want to play that way.

Claiming that there is a real reason that she is voting there and then not having one at all is scummier.

That's not scummy, either. I was mostly testing reactions, which is part of how I scumhunt, and the reality is that I did have reasons based in large part on things that RC and BuJaber were pointing out (and which I agree with).

Not being willing to discuss your motivation for a vote is scummy. Having a vote tossed out and shielding it under the guise of a reaction test is also scummy. That's a catch-all excuse for an unexplained vote.

Why does townshoshin lose interest like this but scum shoshin not? If the driving factor is RC, then it would be NAI.

I signed up for this game because RC asked me to. He sent me a PM promising that he wouldn't replace out and that he would take the game seriously. Then he came into the game and immediately dueled, so I was pretty upset and just stopped caring.

This is not responsive to the question that was asked. If RC said that he would be invested in the game, and then he played like he did, then you should be upset at him and lose interest either way. That's not a town defense. It's easy for me to see how you could be scum here.

Could always go back to NC. Still do not like that slot much - a bunch of OMGUS and then purposefully casing a player that is no longer in the game is scummy as fuck. The useless excuse of not casing because we were locked into the duel BUT placing a vote on me during that duel is scummy.

Who is NC? Where's the OMGUS and what's scummy about it? (OMGUS isn't scummy by itself, but throwing the word around without more in-depth analysis of why it's scummy is actually scummy). What's scummy about casing a player that isn't in the game anymore? If the player was scummy, that has impact on how you read that player's slot for the rest of the game. And what's scummy about the "useless excuse"? It's like you're just calling everything the player is doing scummy without actually analyzing why any of this stuff is more likely to come from scum than town. And that fact - the lack of any in-depth analysis - is scummy. Especially for a player like you, who clearly has an analytical approach to the game. The lack of more thoughtful analysis from your slot, given your clear propensity for an anlaytical approach to the game, doesn't seem to make much sense. Any explanation for that?

This is looking better.

[Light Ethos]

Push on shoshin is kinda weak.
Why is her naked vote scummy? And why pick her out when I did the same thing but nobody talked about me?

I see more analysis from your slot than from hers. Her vote looks like part of an active lurking strategy to me.

[Light Ethos]

idk what NC is but maybe what I bolded is a scumslip, so

How is what you bolded a scumslip? I'm not saying it isn't one. I just don't see it right away.

[Light Ethos]

No it's not the wording, it's how understanding he was that Garmr felt insulted
"Oh of course you took it as an insult, you're town"
which directly contradicts Cage's read of Garmr as scum

This is awful logic and is certainly a reach. NC didn't say "you're town." He said "fypov you know you're town." Fypov. From your point of view. Not NC's point of view.

[Light Ethos]

I will answer this too since I'm voting you. I find that following the reads of a dead player is a low effort way of playing the game. It's a reasonable way of active lurking. Active lurking is not town motivated. Town should be looking for scum, not making a few throwaway comments and then sheeping dead town players' reads or logic.

Why is low effort scummy when town do it all the time?

Also, this doesn't answer my question. Why shouldn't a townie give weight to how other townies are reading the game, especially when those other townies are known for strong reads and have put much more effort & time into the game?

I haven't played many games here yet, but in the games I've played here so far, at least one of the scum players has been an active lurker. I don't think that players who are willing to sit back and coast through the game should get a free pass. Your mindset in saying that low effort is fine because "town do[es] it all the time" doesn't hold up very well to me. Town players should be looking for scum or engaging with content as it is posted. When I see players avoiding doing that, it pings me as a possible scum player. Scum players benefit more from sitting back than town players do.

As for your second question: it's fine for town players to weigh confirmed town players' opinions and reads. What isn't fine is for town players to simply sheep those reads. If RC is known for strong reads, that's great. (It's also surprising to me. He was in full gamesolve mode for the one game I played with him, and his reads cost us the game.) However, you do have to acknowledge that the dead town player had much less information than you do when he made his reads, and those reads would likely change with respect to that additional information. The reason why scum players benefit most from sheeping a dead town player's reads that were formed without any additional game information is that it creates plausible deniability for a mislynch. In the case of a mislynch, it was the dead town player's bad read, not yours. To speak to your point about valuing the opinion of players who have put more thought into the game than you have: that's fine to do as a starting point, but the preferable solution is to simply put more effort into the game yourself.

Then as stated above, it's NAI at best. I don't see why a town player would play the way you have, but I can easily see how a scum player could want to play that way.

You don't see why a town player who doesn't care about the game would follow the reads of a dead townie who (a) is known for having good reads, and (b) put much more effort & time into the game to figure things out? What's not to see? And scum would follow those reads only in the event that the dead townie was wrong... so there's not exactly much reason for your suspicion unless you actually know the flips of the relevant players.

I addressed this above. The only new piece of this portion of your post is your claim that scum would only follow the reads in the event that the dead townie is wrong. Yes, this is obvious, but it's not responsive to the point I made. RC is making a set of Day 1 reads with zero flips available. I haven't checked his past games for confirmation, but I would imagine that most of the time, he has at least one of those reads wrong. In the world you wish to live in, where sheeping RC shows town motivation, a scum player can reliably choose one of those incorrect RC reads and hard sheep it. There is plenty of reason for me to be suspicious.

Not being willing to discuss your motivation for a vote is scummy. Having a vote tossed out and shielding it under the guise of a reaction test is also scummy. That's a catch-all excuse for an unexplained vote.

I answered the question that was asked. I just did so in a way that helped me get some more information on players. What's odd that is that you're just jumping on that without giving it more thought. None of these things are scummy. They might run contrary to the way YOU play the game, but that doesn't make them scummy. You've still offered no reason that scum are more likely to do these things than town. Like, actual reasoning other than your conclusory assertions.

I find those things to be scummy. Town benefits from transparency around intents and access to information. Scum is the informed minority. It's incumbent on town to share their logic and reasoning with each other in order to find inconsistencies and incongruences. I contend that scum benefits most from posting unexplained votes if they can get away with it. The challenge is that scum (in my experience) rarely gets away with it.

This is not responsive to the question that was asked. If RC said that he would be invested in the game, and then he played like he did, then you should be upset at him and lose interest either way. That's not a town defense. It's easy for me to see how you could be scum here.

Why are you talking about what "could" be instead of what's "likely"?

The way you find scum is by distinguishing what's likely from what's unlikely. Scum tend to push mislynches by trying to cast "possibilities" as "probabilities." Is that what you're doing here? Or do you agree that the fact that I "could be scum" is irrelevant, because literally anyone "could" be scum?

No. I think you're probably scum. I see you active lurking. I see you putting minimal effort into engaging the game. I know that behavior benefits scum more than it benefits town. I think scum plays the way you are playing more than town does.

[Light Ethos]

Yeah no you're still getting caught up in the words

It's about the emotions

I see where you are coming from now when you put it that way. I don't see it as a scumslip, but I do understand what you were saying now.

[Light Ethos]

@PenguinPower: Do you still scum read Bujaber and ejjinami?
If so, can you elaborate on why?

[Light Ethos]

you implied the only reason was to lynch the loud one.

Nah I'm not that stupid

What other reasons do you think it was for? Reading your post left me with the impression Garmr posted.

[Light Ethos]

Garmr how do you read ele and ele how do you read garmr?

I think ele trusting shoshin and joining the game with that mentality is more indicative of town!sho than it is AI for ele.

I think it's null

but when compared to eji slot I'm not really hard scum reading him as much. Still on my to sort list but a lower priority.

ele trusting shoshin. Is null

I think it points to to town!shoshin because if ele repped into a town slot we can trust the read, and if he repped into a scum slot I think he would still say that to make him sound believable and/or to pocket shoshin.

That leaves SvS but that would be rather ballsy of ele and I'm leaning town for shoshin anyway based on this weak push on her and her response to it.

I'm not liking this logic. If ele posts trust of shoshin regardless of ele's alignment, I contend that ele would post trust of shoshin regardless of shoshin's alignment too. Your post also ignores the possibility of town!ele misreading scum!shoshin. Is there a particular reason you reject that possibility?

[Light Ethos]

@Garmr: Can you expand a bit more on why you dueled FA_Q2 instead of shoving him? Who of your town reads were you worried about dueling another town read? (Or did I misunderstand your EBWOP?)

[Light Ethos]

@Garmr: Can you expand a bit more on why you dueled FA_Q2 instead of shoving him? Who of your town reads were you worried about dueling another town read? (Or did I misunderstand your EBWOP?)

I was meaning in case it suddenly happens like rc and pp yesterday. Also I want FAQ dealt with and if another duel took place he might be able to sink away from attention.

Also it forces players to take a stance on him and me which is good for info.

I see what you mean now. Of the two of you, I tend to think that if either of you is scum, it would be FA_Q2, and I can't see this being a distancing tactic.
@FA_Q2: Why are duels "asininely scum-sided?"
@mod: No problem! Everyone makes mistakes.

[Light Ethos]

so why are you sure he's a better lynch than you? If he's town, and you're town, and you're more easily mislynchable (and based on others' reads up to this point that's the case) you should probably be the one to go

Can you explain this further? What precludes scum!Garmr from dueling town!FA_Q2?

[Light Ethos]

For everyone else his basically saying his lynchbait here and a easy duel making me scum. That's a pretty scummy reasons as well to try and scum read me.

I tend to agree with this. When you got dueled, the better choice would have been to step back speak about your reads, FA_Q2. If people liked your reads more than Garmr's, then they would vote Garmr, and if you flip town, your reads would be given more consideration. That you didn't consider this at all says that you're probably scum.

[Light Ethos]

@Creature: Walk me through the Garmr case. I'm not seeing it. Walk us through your case on my slot too.
I see Garmr's duel here as a town-motivated attempt at forcing everyone to consider his read more closely.