Open 755: Two-Fold C9++ (GAME OVER)

[Vorkuta]

First

[Vorkuta]

Oh I really didn't expect that to work.
Hi again to Baezu, Creature, Duck, Fus, and Dunn.

Looking forward to playing with the rest of you!

VOTE: Dave for being petty

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta's town by the way.

Can confirm, read role PM

[Vorkuta]

There's no way Rich will keep on rhyming throughout the entire game.
When he breaks, I'll vote him

[Vorkuta]

The transition from RVS into proper D1 is always awkward especially when not everyone (hi skitter) has even checked in, but let's see what I can do.

Chemist's somewhat hostile reaction to the RVS counter votes feel town.
I feel that a few more people might pile up on the wagon, but then it'll naturally diffuse and flow on to the next person.

Jungle's town reads are 1000!% factual and correct.

Then do the smart thing
Jump onto the Chenn wagon!

No.

But keep up the good work Rich

Why does Sky want to 1v1 Dunn? Prior vendetta or something?

[Vorkuta]

also getting pings from 56

I'm sorry for trying to take a proactive role in progressing the game /s

What's wrong? The reads, or the reasoning?

[Vorkuta]

This is a damned if I do and damned if I don't situation where it doesn't matter what I say, you've already made up your minds on me being scummier than others who didn't post.

feels like ur just saying something to make it look like you're saying something, it doesn't really add anything to the game but on the surface level looks like a contribution

God forbid you anyone makes a single game post in the future that lacks content.

I mean it's D1 and RVS- anything that anyone is going to say is going to be content deprived regardless so I gotta take risks in making posts.
Sure if a wagon on me spurs some sort of discussion then I'm all for it

[Vorkuta]

@vorkuta, how can you characterize jungle’s reads as factual?

Yes.

[Vorkuta]

Hi duckling- thanks for the PM a while back. It made my day!

As you already know, I only roll town.
How about you? Can we get the fuzzy warm strength back?

I think you know my stance on excessive Town Reading backed up by literally nothing, so I'll confront the guy when he posts more.

particularly wild or confusing

Let's open up with some spicy stuff very early on:
My issue is that I've been in a few games with a traitor recently, this REALLY REALLY pinged me as "traitor scum signaling to home base".
It would be the most perfect way to do it IMHO.

[Vorkuta]

Opening in #21.

[Vorkuta]

@#82 & #83- yes correct

@84: ...........
Imma just throw this google docs (that was in the BOTTOM OF THE WIKI PAGE) for everyone to go look at some example specs/rolls with this setup.

Spoiler:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qJi ... jgqgo/edit#

The next time I see a "creature" or a "fus" being lazy with learning the setup spec, I'll get mad.

@85: I said I'd open with something spicy.
I have other things in store as well don't worry.

Oh god it's the creature catchup posts please make them no longer than 1 page.

[Vorkuta]

Do you want to be spoonfed a list of all potential scum PRs as well?

HILARIOUSLY ENOUGH, in my past 2 games where scum had traitors, they haven't made it to D2, and I'm seriously detecting similar pings here.
I'm fully aware that this could be wrong and can chalk it up to recency bias, but meh.

[Vorkuta]

I mean neither of you know me well enough to say that, especially seeing as my style is evolving/progressing

in a bad way

with every game on this site.
Also creature's lazy so there's that.

I don't want people to be blindsided by something when there's a nice wiki page telling us what can/cannot happen.
Case in point: 2 players learned that this setup CAN INDEED have traitors.

I do apologize for the hostility in which the lesson was delivered in though.

[Vorkuta]

Do you have enough for a gamesolve yet?

[Vorkuta]

I didn't realize this is multiball? I guess I should take a look at the setup.

Woah, where you got that aggressive?

Seems to be warranted.

OR YOU GET NO COOKIES!

Yes please

[Vorkuta]

You're.... not duck. Imma wait until duck gets back. /s

they don't need all the fluff explaining that they're doing that

I'm being scum read for trying to make my posts seem fun and fluffy. Ok. Lesson learnt.

and that they don't care if they get wagoned, you know?

I don't think that an early D1 wagon on me will get through, so I'm being slightly cavalier about it.
It'll help me scum hunt better.

[Vorkuta]

It’s the devil from diablo 3

I liked hamlet more.

i don't really vibe the vorkuta read rn

So is that a redaction of your TR on me?

[Vorkuta]

Dammit I'm being ninja'd faster than I can post

something to remember about the current gamestate: You know something about me that others don't.

Remember when I said that Sky was trying to contact the mothership?
This screams of it slightly more.

You've been lynched on D1 before so that's an odd position to take?

I don't think I ever was, but I'll check my games and correct myself if this is wrong.
And even if I were, I'm pretty sure I learned/improved what to do and what not to do.

[Vorkuta]

Now that you practically town told by not knowing it's multiball, I know it's the latter.

In that case I also would like to claim that I wasn't aware that this is a multiball setup for the sweet sweet townread /s
No.

Sure jungle is town, but NOT for that reason.

[Vorkuta]

Or maybe it was D2? I could be remembering wrong, my memory isn't good these days.

Ok this feels like I've been stalked.... or do I know you?

please don't be an alt of who I think this may be

But yes if anyone cares about my game history- I've only been lynched in 1 game (out of like.... 8 in total) on D2, and that's honestly because I gave up and just didn't bother to post a defense.
I also only roll town so

[Vorkuta]

Okay Mr. TotallyNotScum.

Great to see we're on the same page. Was it because I said I didn't read the setup? That's probably it.

What is your reason for jungle being town?

If he were scum he wouldn't act this way. Period.

[Vorkuta]

1: excuse me, kind sir, but thats kind of unsporting of you to say.
2: ummm these are contrasts, arent they?
4: Why are you talking like we're 90 pages and a 7 page argument deep in a game? its still rvs

1- Yes.
2- *sighs*. The first quote is a response to someone (creature or wtv) attempting to read my personality and TONE.
The second quote is ME saying that this would be suboptimal scum behavior.
So no, they are not contrasts/contradictions.

3

4-

The transition from RVS into proper D1 is always awkward especially when not everyone (hi skitter) has even checked in, but let's see what I can do.

On an unrelated note, has there been a game where the RVS lasted until literally the end of D1?

[Vorkuta]

From a town perspective it's extremely important to make sure that other town don't play the game like single ball.

I'll bite- how exactly should town scumhunt or townhunt differently in a multiball setup?
For D1 purposes, what's the difference for town between a

best case scenario

2:2:12 vs a 4:12?

[Vorkuta]

hyper vigilant

Recency Bias and "once bitten, twice shy".
Heads up- I'll also be hyper vigilant of any

Morality-level

gambits or D1 claims for exactly the same reason.

what if they're trying to phone home by talking about traitors??

Great to see you've received my messages/crumbs- I was trying to be subtle about it. Do you think anyone else noticed?

A few examples:

I don't see how townhunting is complicated by several factions. We're still going to look for suspicious tells/out of character behavior/solvey vs agenda driven behavior and what not, and scum has to fake that regardless of how many factions there are.
And I emphasized D1 because 'prefilp associatives'.

Like come D2, we'll have 1~4 flips (worst case scenario I can think up with the setup: lynch +2 NKs + vig shot) with which to study things by.
To best capitalize on them, we build interactions and cases between people in D1, and thus no difference between an SB game IMHO.

[Vorkuta]

Sounds like slef-conscious scum

What if I'm a slef-conscious person by nature

regardless of alignment

?

Overly defensive to mild pressure

So town!vork should be rolling over and allowing this BS to stand uncontested. Noted.

Buddying with duck

Anyone referencing previous games is scum. Good to know.

but still doesn't vote (still has his RVS vote up rn).

I got lucky and have my RVS vote right where I want it for the time being, as catching scum>catching a traitor.

This is much better than your naked vote on me though so thanks for engaging.
And rooster pretty much had the same attacks

one liners

so uh idk what else to say to that.

[Vorkuta]

It's annoying.

I have many strikeouts in my posts. I'll refrain if it's a problem, but I'm kind of fan of them.

Your beginning in MN 2058

Ah yes.. Normal 2058 where I was literally unable to do anything due to how powerless and insignificant I was. The Normal where I had a vig role and lost.
So do you not see that there are other more 'nuanced' explanations as to why my opening this game is different?

Yep

Cool- I'll just stop replying to anyone who gives me scum points in general. /s
I mean... I can only offer a self-meta appeal.
Either I can do my usual thing of "question here, scum points there, town read there" and go with the flow until something interesting happens, or I can be front and center stage. That's just me experimenting with different play-styles to get to my win-con and to enjoy the game more.

not anyone referencing a previous game

That was me referencing our first game together. Duck can probably confirm.
You call it buddying, I call it trying to build my town block with a dash of humor.

if you were pushing it. You're not

-There are quite a few other people in this very game who scum read players without pushing them.
-It's D1. I need to interact with him a bit more to determine whether I really want a dave push today or not.
-Skitter is doing a bit of the heavy lifting on the dave slot as well which allows me to play around and look for better potential scum targets and build interactions.

[Vorkuta]

You got wagoned to L-1 and were quite cool. Not overly defensive, no snark, just kept scum hunting.

-*Looks at the VoteCounts* *Doesn't ever See a Vork-L1 wagon*
-Ah yes, that game which town lost because I was a useless and reaction based player and couldn't convince anyone that the gambit that scum was pulling was... a gambit, also because my reads were bad.

no snark

Begs to differ

Like I've made this (self meta appeal) case already- my play is ever evolving with me trying to be more active/proactive (as opposed to passive and reactive), with me trying to not fall for fakeclaims/gambits, and me just getting more comfortable with forum mafia in general.

I find it very agenda driven of you to tunnel me so hard when
-other people are guilty of doing the same things you accuse me of
-it seems that you actually might be scum looking to get early points by attacking the lowest hanging fruit
-you're very "selective" and picky about the games you link to try and prove your point. Here's what I mean:
vork: does thing A in 1 game, and thing B in 5 other games
vork: does thing B in this game
Persivul: "vork is scum because he is doing thing B this game, and here's a link to the 1 game in which he did thing A"

Also can I use

strikethroughs

?

[Vorkuta]

First, WTF is with the strikeout? I'd lynch you just to get rid of that. It's annoying.

I'm not sure.
@Perc- do you have a problem with me using strikethroughs in GENERAL/AT ALL, or me using strikethroughs in the way dave posted above and to joke around?
The 'regardless of alignment' strike-through was because I'm self aware enough to know that I can't link to any scum!vork games where I'm self-conscious because... I don't have scum games.

[Vorkuta]

Are there two players using strike heavily?

I'm not an alt, and I don't come from another website if that's what you're referring to.

Scum don't get points for pushing mislynches

Persivul (regardless of alignment) gets points for pushing vork (also regardless of alignment) on D1 as it shows activity, reasoning, and "insert town traits here"
When the wagon doesn't go through, you'll still have those points with you.

pedit- I'll stop the strike-throughs for only this game, sorry to disturb your eyes.

[Vorkuta]

Idk, because I was on the receiving end of that just now, but my scum detector really didn't go off.
I mean I have a case for a scum!persivul, but more people need to say things before I can be sure of it.
Tentative wrong!town (with many scum points) on this.

[Vorkuta]

Bullshit. Casting shade without a vote isn't a playstyle thing, it's a scum thing.

It's a playstyle thing. Some people are perfectly fine with 'vote first, ask questions later', others want to get town approval to see whether a wagon is worth the time/discussion it merits.

Here, I'm active early, providing content and making pushes. This is nothing like my D1 play in Prey.

Or... you did a bit of self reflection, realized that there was too much contrast between your scum game and town game, and decided to compensate with a really poor push on me.

I have a case, but I won't give it until I know there are people willing to receive it.

All ears.

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta do you think I should be townreading you with our experience? Could you point me towards a post/some posts of yours which you think might help me see your towniness?

Aside from the obvious "yes you should TR me"..., this is a confusing question. I could ask you the same thing as well.

Like- my playstyle's changed/toned down a bit in some places- as you can see I am no longer sorting by activity count and relentlessly tunneling anyone who dares lurk.
I'd like to think all of my posts with multiquotes where I defend myself from scum accusations (from Persy and Sky) demonstrate exactly the same sort of defense and reasoning I did in our newbie game together. Similarly- I'm getting my hands a bit dirty, but in a day or two I'll come out clean and in position to build my core!town block (even though I was told it would be different in MultiBall).

@Persivul- Duck can confirm that town!vork throws shade left and right without following it up with a vote.

[Vorkuta]

I don't know- I only roll town
I'm not going to be like you and say "scum!vork would've done this and that differently, and that's why I'm town!vork this game"

I'm just rebutting your

Bullshit. Casting shade without a vote isn't a playstyle thing, it's a scum thing.

[Vorkuta]

queen. He

Yes

Do you attribute to your change in playstyle?

I don't know what you mean by 'less weighty', but I'm pretty sure I will begin to ramp things up in as I will get the townreads and momentum.
I have a few non-persivul and sky reads that I'll share in a bit, assuming my case for them doesn't completely fall flat, but I also want to see what others will say to Persy's tunnel on me.

Mind if I ask what inspired the change?

Yes very much I do mind (strikethrough'd )
Losing. Not winning. Not feeling "relevant" in games that I won. More experience and exposure to different playstyles/gambits/avenues of approach. The bigger & stronger & experienced player roster in this game as opposed to our Newbie game.
That can probably account for the assertiveness, but dunno about 'weight'.

[Vorkuta]

I have a process. I'm going through it with Vork.

Can we fast forward to the part where we become best buds again?

[Vorkuta]

You mean the tunnel on you in which I moved my vote from you to skitter?

Oh come on.

There's no way you can compare your push on skitter to your hypertunnel on yours truly.

[Vorkuta]

There's no way you can compare your push on skitter to your hypertunnel on yours truly.

I'm just going to double down on this to demonstrate how unsatisfied I am with your points.

Your """push""" on skitter, is actually a "chainsaw attack" as she was defending me, and you played the "anyone who defends my enemy is also my enemy" card. (not very chivalrous of you )
It's like a tangent and a byproduct of your tunnel on me.

[Vorkuta]

Yeah I'm going to have to concede that my scum!dave case was primarily about his mechanical/logical playstyle now that I see this discussion about it.

[Vorkuta]

y tho

you’re becoming one of my strongest turn reads

I think Baezu misinterpreted Persivul's phrase wrong.
He was trying to rephrase/mock what I said to make it sound scummy.

[Vorkuta]

I have a case, but I won't give it until I know there are people willing to receive it. This is scummy af.

This IS NOT Persivul saying he has a case.
This IS Persivul saying that scum!vork "having a case but not giving it" is scummy.

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Dunn- low presence and receiving end of traitorposting.

[Vorkuta]

If you townread Skitter, I suggest sheeping her on me.

Can... I TR both of you...? Or is that not an option?

[Vorkuta]

Ok guys, I'm going to have to put my foot down.
This has become an echo chamber with only 1/2 the cast engaging, and the other half doing absolutely nothing and keeping their head entirely under the water.
We need them to engage, and I think you all are making it kind of difficult with your tunelling and "1v1"s.

[Vorkuta]

I propose we drop the Jungle & Percy votes for now, as we have MORE than enough content to analyze in the later stages of the game, and put our votes on people at the lower half of the activity list.

VOTE: Chemist (4)

[Vorkuta]

It has potential to go somewhere, it has potential to just turn into an ego fight out of which people come out with their egos bruised and nothing more.
All this untapped potential is great BUT

Let's actually scumhunt and make sure others dont get a free pass for not existing.

[Vorkuta]

but knew it would be pounced on if I were the first to suggest it

...... I'll let it slide to prove how serious I am about engaging lurkers.

It doesn't have to be Chemist- it can be anyone in the bottom third of the activity list and who is impossible to engage.
Chemist just has an already established wagon on him and I'm hoping the pressure of a few more votes makes him active.

[Vorkuta]

Speak of the devil.....
Is it that easy?

Guys, lets wagon another lurker and maybe they'll show up?

[Vorkuta]

And I don't like 90% of Persy's content, so I'm reacting with snark to make it show.

ANYWAY- as much as I like skitter and you(pedit- baezu), dislike Persy and Sky, and feel null on shoshin/lime and duck
LET'S get back to the more pressing matter at hand, drop this, and vote lurk please

[Vorkuta]

can't distinguish between a push and a tunnel?

In WHAT UNIVERSE is there a comparison?
Let's ISO
Persy vs Vork: #306, #318, #331: Agenda driven Hyper tunelling
Persy vs Skitter: #376 & #377: Minor Defensive Push (reasons for which I'll deal with later).

Right now please though

PUSH LURKERS

[Vorkuta]

Tunnels go horizontally, holes go vertically (/s).

Are we done?
Can we resume this some other time?

[Vorkuta]

he’s usually very active as town

PUSH LURKERS

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Vorkuta]

Wait, are you satisfied with the dribble that chemist provided when he hopped on for like a nanosecond?!?!?!?!?

You mean he's not coming back??!?!?!
I'm assuming the guy popped in to say 'hi, I'll read smth and get back to you', so my beetlejuicing did something.
Now-
VOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: PenguinPower
VOTE: PenguinPower

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Persivul

ON THE CONDITION that you remember that there are lurkers in this game and don't allow them to get to Lylo so we don't have to make difficult decisions.

[Vorkuta]

What did I get here?

Multiball.

No.

+1

[Vorkuta]

What should I read

I'm shouldn't spoonfeed you.
Buuuuut... for the sake of engagement:

What's your take on Duck vs Lime, Me vs Persy, Persy vs Skitter.... etc.?
Is the wagon on you a scum push, or 1000!% purely innocent townies (for whatever reasons)?
Do you have any meta along the lines of "town!Penguin is more active"?
Do you have anything fun and spicy for us?

[Vorkuta]

Do you have any meta

along the lines of

This guy.
Look- you don't get a pass because you've done the bare minimum, answered my questions in fact but not in spirit, and promised to do reads (later, but only if someone reminds you to).
Give us something to work with.

[Vorkuta]

Holy shit, someone's actually considering motivations instead of feelz.

Be honest- you're just taking what you can get.

[Vorkuta]

vork, i kind of expected more verbose posts from you

I'm handicapped by not being able to use strikethroughs in this game.

[Vorkuta]

Btw, I would like full credit for all the new/recent developments on chemist.

Which other lurker needs the same treatment?

[Vorkuta]

Which other

lurker

Such shamelessness.

[Vorkuta]

What does that even mean?

It means that your post count is low, and seeing as I'm trying out a "pressure all lurkers" thing, you get a vote.

The second part of the phrase is now more or less obsolete

[Vorkuta]

e's being safe by not getting himself involved with conflicts between active players

he doesn't want to the dirty work.

You've.... seen my slapfight with persy right? I'd say that counts as dirty work.

Tabling the discussions at hand is not pro-town like vorkuta claims. It is a blatant misdirection to stop town

There's actual productive discussion, and there's just blatant "No-u"/"egofighting". I made the post because I strongly suspected that we've hit diminishing returns on our ""productive discussion"" and no new/helpful/relevant content would've been generated as a result on world vs. persy (only repeats), and it felt like we were entering butthurt territory. You have to concede that the ""quality"" of the discussion (as it pertains to scumhunting/relevance/whatnot) has decreased as the discussion went on and on and on.

Frankly I don't give a damn if dunn is scum right now for example despite having no content in her iso so far. Because she's not doing anything. Not pushing an agenda, not creating a narrative, not creating townblocks, not scumreading/shading people. She's not a threat to anybody at the moment and her flip gives us nothing.

So you're basically telling me that optimal way to play BOTH town AND scum is to do nothing and lurk until D3.
Because I've reread that wall (chunks of wall?) over and over, and that pretty sounds like a logical conclusion to make from your posts, and I'm very much unsatisfied with it.
What guarantee do we have that these lurkers WILL wake up in D3/Lylo, and "activate"?
If anything, it's the other way around- these guys realize that they can do nothing all day, and they'll KEEP doing nothing all day because literally nothing/noone is stopping them. Like I don't have the same level of trust as Lime does in here

I trust our teammates will town their slot up when the the time is necessary.

[Vorkuta]

he's just literally not been here.

I beetlejuiced him just like I beetlejuiced chemist (please hold your applause).
Let's do the same for like chennis and Dunn, and THEN return back to more civilized discussion no?

[Vorkuta]

JUST TO CONFIRM BEFORE I GO ALL CRAZY ON YOU
this duck is tw yes?
the guy who wrote "frankly I don't care what dunn does" is buj yes?

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Dunn

[Vorkuta]

hi just popping in to say can we not make posts like this

Kindly pop out the reads like you promised while you're at it.

And this is IDENTICAL to Lime's

VOTE: Chemist

Persi tomorrow.

[Vorkuta]

I don't like how they pushed Dunn to stop lurking after lurking for a while themself

You.... you don't get to say that. That's like multiple levels of irony right there.

14. Dunnstral - slight town for reasons outlined earlier

PURELY HYPOTHETICALLY- if Penguin pushed/prodded/tried-to-wake-up Chennis or Rich or another lurker, would this hold for them too?

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: dunn

Literally pagetop. Or at least that's the assumption he's making.

[Vorkuta]

Which is a pressure vote, which HE BELIEVES is also a "come and play" vote.

[Vorkuta]

Let's compare Dunn's post history/frequency BEFORE pressure votes vs Dunn's post history AFTER pressure votes.

Coincidence? I think not.

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Chemist to make duck happy

[Vorkuta]

In other news- Happy birthday penguin!

[Vorkuta]

Yeah, but note how I said frequency as well.

[Vorkuta]

Buj right?

This kind of really helps my case for why I want to engage any and all lurkers now on D1.
And he

im sorry

Take what you can get. Let's bury this.

[Vorkuta]

UNVOTE:

[Vorkuta]

Too many unaccounted variables to risk a quick hammer.
We have literally WEEKS left.

[Vorkuta]

The creature catchup was painful as always.

Why tf there's no one tunneling me?

like this post ^^^^ scum!you never says this

I don't know if I buy this meta appeal as I haven't seen this in my previous creature games

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta, please sheep me.

I would but you're not voting for anyone (also are you ok/allowed to post here as shoshin and not as lime?)

Persy on D1? fine- he does repeatedly insist that I put my vote where my mouth is.
VOTE: Persivul

I'm also interested in seeing Dunn and Rich activate so please do not disappoint guys.

[Vorkuta]

There's no way Rich will keep on rhyming throughout the entire game.
When he breaks, I'll vote him

Erm....
nvm

[Vorkuta]

Can we activate/engage dunn first?
For what its worth, I think a mass claim in this situation has more town benefit

[Vorkuta]

Look- this is multiball, and town needs to have pretty good weapons to do anything.
I'm willing to bet that
-theres a "broken combo" somewhere out there
-scum will fail/contradict themselves in fake!claiming
-stuff will resolve itself come D2

Like we'll probably end up claiming @D3/4 anyway.
I'd rather not be in a positon where "oh if we only had this PR still alive we could've done THIS'

[Vorkuta]

PP can you defend yourself?

quote="In post 1523, chennisden"]Against getting lynched[/quote]
Can you?
Or can anyone without a claim or the promise of town utility?

[Vorkuta]

Let's mass claim today yeah?

[Vorkuta]

If anyone has something to claim today, they go last.
We pick our greatest scum lean/case and popcorn from there?

[Vorkuta]

People are finally "ok" with a Dunn vote now?
Finally
VOTE: Dunn

[Vorkuta]

any other guilties should out lest they get nked.

and we should MC

Friendly reminder before we lynch this that a werewolf defector can be a 1-shot cop

OK chennis- what EXACTLY are you and what is the nature of your guilty on rooster?

[Vorkuta]

meant dunnstral :/

Now this just looks like really bad damage control

pedit- I was just about to ask that again

[Vorkuta]

if you want to stop italian-claiming

Not gonna lie, I misunderstood the "joke" the first 3 times I read that.

Sorry, I like my vote on Dunn.
The lynch is going through anyway, but me voting would put chicken in quickhammer territory, and I want to squeeze more out of today.
Plus a few people haven't even checked in so who knows what THEY might have to say?

[Vorkuta]

Can we
-mass claim today?
-not hammer without people actually checking in today?

[Vorkuta]

Also trying to reread Shoshin's ISO to see if she crumbed her night target(s), except I'm bad at picking anything up.
Kindly help/advise?

[Vorkuta]

for consecutive days is pretty ugly

Sorry- pretty damn busy with a project- I'm reading along though, and still would like to mass claim

[Vorkuta]

but now that both skitter and shoshin are dead

Arguably lime's green flip quite heavily incriminates you, but I don't know how confident I am about that for now.
Agree with the dunn lynch (like I have D1 and D2), but not voting because I LOVED how D2 played out (/s)

[Vorkuta]

That naked and L-2 vote is quite wolfy baezu....

[Vorkuta]

This is the first time she's interacted/mention Dunn this game, and there's no explanation.
Although having been in a few games with her this what town!Baezu did/does

[Vorkuta]

Uhhh... hasn't changed?
#1414

I kind of backed off D2 because we had ("2") hard guilties and were content with playing follow the guilty (and because the day ended so damn early).
Now I don't see objections except for "nah, it's all good- both mafia and werewolves lost 1 apiece) and I don't want to be like that until Lylo

[Vorkuta]

How do readlists look in multiball btw?
Like I have a few candidates for skitter's partners (depending on their claims), but I'd otherwise TR them if there was only 1 scum faction

[Vorkuta]

I've been pushing Dunn forever so... self-explanatory
IMHO if Dunn hasn't activated in D1 and D2, there won't be a difference come D3.

Shoshin's ISO gives a strong town on elephant and strong scum on percy- I buy both
One duck head feels town and another duck head feels scum....

Like most of buj's posts feel like he's furthering his scum agenda, but the really bad duck feels town.
HOWEVER I didn't like the L-1 vote. It felt really out of character and scummy

Chennis is a 1-shot, but I really want to believe in a universe where he is dog-cop and not town cop.
Probably given that roster flipped "vanilla" while skitter flipped alpha this might be a thing but....

Fus/Baezu/Dave/Creature.... all... exist? (/s- townie but low activity so concerning)
That's partially why I want a MC as well- to see if lurkers are actually "no attention = no nightkill = can help town and do stuff" or.... the alternative.

And VCAs with skitter and roster are going to be really hard to do unfortunately
So I'm lost

[Vorkuta]

Dude, Im number 3 in terms of activity, right behind skitter (lol) and ducks

I look for quality/game impact in presence- your one-liner pop ins and memes as of recently (early on- your presence was stronger) put you there.

[Vorkuta]

early on- your presence was stronger

later in D1

can you show me an example of their differing?

So it's fair to say that early on duck and lime & duck and skitter were having a lot of 1-on-1/back and forth, and duck was scumread by a few people.
When buj was responding, the content seemed more mechanical and backed up by logic, while when ducky was responding, his tone and arguments had more of a "hello fellow town, how do you do?" vibe.
Similarly the people that they wanted to town/scum read were different at times (ducky wanted to tr me, buj had me as scum) and whatnot.

I really want an explanation for the L-1 vote from duck.

[Vorkuta]

I think my perception of our slot's obvtownness is backwards from yours

This is a really ducky answer lol.

but that makes me question why you townread my head

I think I have it the other way around then.
TO ME- ducky in newbie queue was "over compensating" and "let's engage the newbies" ducky, and "THIS" ducky feels slightly more pure/natural/true to his nature.
If this is ooc for you then I probably have a slightly wrong initial impression of you
I can stop town reading your head for that if you would like

so the L-1 is not remotely out of character

My issue was that it wasn't so much "out of character" as... uh.... slightly anti-town/reckless in my eyes.
I mean Dunn said it quite nicely immediately afterwards with

Check DuckDuckJab tonight

Dunn can be scum, but I can sympathize with ^

[Vorkuta]

He has straight up been scummy af

Is it because refuse to conf!town you and think you might be traitor dog cop?
That's why isn't it.

[Vorkuta]

you refused to lynch roster.

Only because the lynch felt rushed- we had more time, and I genuinely wanted to hear out roster's case/claim. I'm still convinced that the only reason we lynched him is because you claimed before him- and it's pure lyck that it turned out well. Oh and dunn didn't say anything AT ALL D2.

unnecessary massclaim

So the only necessary massclaims are the ones before Lylo yeah?

dunn is a better lynch

Yes.
I've given up on the thought/hope that dunn will activate/engage.
Considering that dunn was very active/helpful/solvey in my previous/only game with them, I'm ok with this lynch (as I was D1 and D2).

HOWEVER- I want to hear everyone say stuff/speak, and it'd be great if we could MC.

[Vorkuta]

Should you be?

[Vorkuta]

A

l

m

o

s

t

5

0

r

e

p

l

a

c

e

s

P

e

n

g

u

i

n

P

o

w

e

r

.

mod, please replace me

Can you clarify?
Same person, different Alt?

[Vorkuta]

So OFFICIAL replacement (that will be mod confirmed in... a bit).
Ayt got it.

I ask because Lime --> shoshin, and Rich ---> irrelephant so...

[Vorkuta]

I buy this on the condition that dunn... "exists" for a bit longer today

[Vorkuta]

Fuscoco is an alt nifty
Is it of A50?

btw just dug this gem up from rich's ISO

[Vorkuta]

Do you really think he's
-scum
-a better lynch than Dunn/ Persy'sReplacement=A50 though

WAIT A SECOND

@everyone

now that persivul is gone, can I resume my

strikethrough

usage?

[Vorkuta]

What even is this question?

(btw, completely unrelated, let's mass claim yeah?)

[Vorkuta]

You've... missed out on his like "3" 1v1s with people early on in D1.
The way he didn't "townily" respond/fight with me cemented him as scum in my eyes.

And Dunn had like single-digit post counts and fluff posted. I've been trying to call them out on it but... nothing.
Hell- self awareness, and no "shame" behind such lurking.

Can we activate/engage dunn first?
For what its worth, I think a mass claim in this situation has more town benefit

No

Can we activate/engage dunn first?

Sure, you have my permission to engage me

town!Dunn was genuinely solvey in my previous game.

[Vorkuta]

@edit/correction/clarification
This is my persy case

You've... missed out on his like "3" 1v1s with people early on in D1.
The way he didn't "townily" respond/fight with me cemented him as scum in my eyes.

[Vorkuta]

and consensus lynches

Wow if this makes me "bad" and low-presence, I would love to know what you think of like a third of the remaining players in here.

so... trade offs

I think we have to make those as this is multiball, and I think the fact that this is a semi-open setup works means that mass claiming works in town-favor.
Like almost everyone so far has told me "no, stfu" and NOT "no BECAUSE..." so I still stand by that.

[Vorkuta]

maybe I'm indeed wolf with them?

I'm 100% relying on my meta slight-town!read on Creature, and he has absolutely no in-game reasons for me town reading for the record.
I just remember from our previous games that he is a very very "meta-readable" player.

Say no to massclaim.

Case in point

[Vorkuta]

It helps scum pick their kills, and trackers/cops

We have protectives who are might be scratching their heads, and we already lost a JK.

Thats where I see the greatest value; a massclaim as late as possible.

So right before Lylo.

My argument is that this is a semi-open setup, and we know that there probably is a broken town combination, simply from the random nature of the role assignment, that would "outweigh" the "scum have targets now" argument.

[Vorkuta]

I don't remember calling you bad or low-presence

I thought that was the implication. Sorry if I assumed/jumped too conclusions too hastily.

what gives you this "meta slight-town!read", then? If not the things he's posted in this game.

Other people (with more experience playing with creature) said so.
Also- (paraphrasing someone from my first game with creature) "town!creature is a useless lurksack", and "this is a town!creature post" here and there.
With creature it's more about tone than actual "tangible" content.

I understand that it's not a "solid" town case, but it's better than my other "town!cases" and lime vouched for him so that's good enough for me.

[Vorkuta]

For example, if the wolves all claimed anti-mafia PRs, and then we killed the mafia and they flipped low-power, we'd know the wolves were lying.
But obviously another possibility is both scumteams claim well and then shoot the town PRs easily

Ok- this is how I want to phrase my "biggest" point in support of the MC.

-As of now, this game is slightly "stagnant" and town feels "reactive" instead of "proactive". I have a bad feeling that a single scum faction can just ride this out to victory.
-A mass claim would be "proactive", "change the way the game is played", and I think is better/stronger/has more potential than the current game state.

[Vorkuta]

Did this happen?

errrr..... Mini #2046 Autumn's farewell

I think Creature is certianly capable of posting it up as scum. Like the whole "he's a useless lurksack" as scum is a bit outdated.

No wait.. not that quote... let me keep looking...

[Vorkuta]

My understanding of Creature's meta is he is much more active as town and much more lurky as scum

He was VERY VERY low-presence/low-impact as town in Mini2058. He had a PR though so *shrugs*
TO BE FAIR, town!RC just straight up told him to

creature you can legitimately feel free to not post this game

you're not gonna change anything lol and its not playing against wincon to not spew your teammates

As for the lime (and duck) vouch:
#585 to #589

[Vorkuta]

You also still have not directed me to anything from you that would give me a reason to townread you

Like what even is this? "spoonfeed me why you're town". My role PM?

It's your job to decide whether you want to TR/SR me. If you feel that I don't have sufficient justification to be on the top of your readlist, then I'll have to disagree, but I'll accept it.

If you think he's scum, we're doing pretty okay as long as we lynch him today

Since D1/D2, I was advocating for a pressure wagon on Dunn.
Now I can't decide whether I think Dunn is straight up lazy/unmotivated town, or lurking scum. Or just NAI "unmotivated".
My Dunn vote also has the added "points" of being a Lylo liability ON TOP of my scum suspicions (due to meta active!dunn = town!dunn).

[Vorkuta]

Jungle/shoshin never had an identifiable townread

Ehh... I got the faint impression that lime was acting/behaving as if creature could be in her townblock after that exchange.
I could be 1000!% wrong and just misread/misinterpreted everything, but that's the "impression" that stuck with me.

How do you read baezu and fuscosco, btw?

I don't /s

Like my problem with baezu is that I've had several ongoing games (that have since finished ) games with her, so my read on her fluctuates DEPENDING on the her activity "as a whole", as I am kind of unable to seperate "baezu in openC9++" from "baezu in ____"
Her cheerful/pockety chime-ins and then afk's for a really long period of time, and completely "seemingly random" things to quote/comment on are consistent with her town game, but you can see how I can't decide in #1963~#1969
I'll wait for her promised catchup/reads.

And fus blew up in someone's face a while ago so that was entertaining.
Otherwise he's playing exactly like he did as town in the same game as baezu (that has finished- please don't ban meeee), with his random appearances/disappearances and doses of "troll" with "serious".

I can't detect any 180 presonality shifts on those 2 players, which is why I feel that their claims would help me read them.

[Vorkuta]

A. Point me to parts of your play that my summary forgot to include

This is too much effort and only scum!vork would try that hard to appease you. (also I'm not feeling it )

B. Step up your play and provide more reads

Tbh I already said IRL stuff + the day being kinda cut short got in the way of my activity then.
And you're only giving me this because I'm engaging WITH YOU, NOW.

Also I think this stuff needs to be addressed to everyone in the lower third of the activity list

[Vorkuta]

Thanks, I'll be here all week

[Vorkuta]

@Baezu- am I doing ok?

[Vorkuta]

You’re doing amazing!

I meant with regards to "she/her"

[Vorkuta]

What?

At the start of this (C9++) game, I was also in another game where I was scum against town!Baezu (and town!Fus). That game has finished, so she's saying that even though I'm "bleeding" town this game, I also bled town last game (as scum).

Please correct me if I'm falsely putting words in your mouth @diablo-demon

[Vorkuta]

Come on- you get the "spirit" of he words.
She's just trying to insert a disclaimer that she tone reads me as obv!town, but apparently I'm "good" at getting people to TR me.

[Vorkuta]

Ahem, she plz

That was town baezu in a nutshell though so...

[Vorkuta]

@mod

Giff prods!

[Vorkuta]

Possibilities in terms of alignment ratios are either 2:2:12 or 3:3:10.

Remember when I wanted to MC?
It might give insights in partner hunting as well

[Vorkuta]

Why do you want to be read as traitor

Can I get this in english please?

[Vorkuta]

....what?

[Vorkuta]

ground for scum!persivul with a scumpartner. And then Buj is saying “they don’t look like partners” and “give skitter credit at being good at distancing”

I just feel that this argument works differently depending on whether it's 2:2 or 3:3

[Vorkuta]

Akshully, how does one traitor/defector work in this anyway?

From wiki https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _Balancing

TL;DR, if one ball gets too much power (T1 vs T2/T3), the weaker ball gets a traitor (T2) with special abilities (T3).

[Vorkuta]

Fine. I give up. This is my hand, and what I've been working on.
This is why I want a MC

Spoiler:

Skitter flipping Alpha means that wolf is either (from setup)

POWER TIER 1
Tx7 = Werewolf + (Alpha/Stealth) Wolf + TOWN 1-Shot Guardian

or

POWER TIER 3
Tx2 = Goon + Wolf (Roleblocker/Role Seer) + (Alpha/Stealth) Wolf

If mafia has T1/T3 (can't confirm given only chennis's 1-shot cop + roster goon), then we can rule out some roles that PHYSICALLY can't exist from the setup.
Like here's a sample thing I'm trying to do

TL;DR- hypothetical setups in the spoiler belos
7 scum letters, 7 wolf letters, X = unknown

Spoiler:

MAFIA- at least 1T from roster flip
1, 3, or 5 D's from JK flip. I assume 3 because math reasons T D D D
1, 3, or 5 C's from 1-shot cop claim: I assume 3 because this is best case scenario for town T D D D C C C (7)
From here we have that the "mafia" part of the setup is 1 Goon, 1 RB/RC, 1Godfather/Ninja && 1 full cop + 1 1-shot cop && 1 JK + 1 full doctor

WOLVES- 0,1,2 OR 5,6,7 Ts from the alpha wolf flip
1,3 or 5 D's from guardian flip

AS AN EXAMPLE
T T D I I I I yields Wolf setup = 1 alpha, 1 RB/RC, 1 Goon && 1 Guardian && 2 full stalkers + 1-1shot stalker

We have the following letters "confirmed", and I want more
Mafia: T C D D X X X && Wolves: T D X X X X X

The mafia side of things is almost half way completed.
There is physically no way for Mafia to have 5T rolls, which already excludes Power Level 1 = No godfather/ninja's
AND this means that a 1-shot doc claim is physically impossible

I want more letters.

[Vorkuta]

You guys are all just trying to decide "oh which one of these lowest hanging fruits do we lynch today hurr durr" WITHOUT even considering the BLESSING that is this semi-open setup.
And this circular "do we dunn or do we persy, no we should dunn, nah let's persy, hey how about a50? nah let's dunn" chat is leading to this stagnated game state which I disprove of.

[Vorkuta]

We have the following letters "confirmed", and I want more
Mafia: T C D D X X X && Wolves: T D X X X X X

Because irrelephant has decided to accuse me of traitor posting, let's logic that out.

For there to be a MAFIA traitor this game, There needs to be a T1 (7~5Ts) < T2/T3 (0~4)Ts.
As we can already see, even the worst case scenario of T T T T C D D still puts mafia in T2.
This makes a mafia traitor PHYSICALLY impossible.

There can still be a werewolf defector in the game, but again: worst case scenario (T (T T T T) D X) we need only 2 more wolf letters worth of information to PoE a werewolf defector.

Do you guys NOT SEE how many tricks we can do?
Like.... *sighs*

[Vorkuta]

Scum will have to understand this black magic letter fuckery, AND adjust accordingly-
Do you think that the remaining scum will be able to execute and coordinate that perfectly without causing any conflicts?

And any conflicts/discrepancy/redflags are a MUCH better indicator than any case you guys might have on Dunn (with their amazing activity/post count)

[Vorkuta]

And please guys- don't make me spoonfeed AND spoil any more thigns.
I already really don't like giving up this much info.

[Vorkuta]

We have the following letters "confirmed", and I want more
Mafia: T C D D X X X && Wolves: T D X X X X X

This is rock solid- based on FLIPS and Chennis's 1-shot cop.
There are also "mafia can only have 2x or 4x "Cs"" and such nuances

[Vorkuta]

Like ffs- If you give me all the claims then:
I can tell you from the setup specs which points are lies/incompatible, and what the MAXIMUM # of Vanilla Townies are even allowed in this game.

You guys are literally "praying" for a miracle with your cases.

[Vorkuta]

Those events being true don't actually Confirm the role

That's exactly my point though: if we have enough mafia C people speaking up, we can now sort WITHIN the 'Cs' that don't add up, and this setup REALLY REALLY limits how anyone you can lie.

Like I envision a game-state after a MC where we have "1 liar within 3 scum "Cs"", "2 liars within the... "8" VT claims", "1 liar between either the tracker or the 3 cops" ASSUMING everything goes "smoothly". Best case scenario we have people who out themselves right there and then.

This is will infinitely SUPPLEMENT all your reads.

[Vorkuta]

You aren't the only one who can do this

I'm aware, and I'm hoping that's the case so that they can fact-check/verify my math/logic.

HOWEVER given that we had people chime in D1 NOT EVEN KNOWING that this is multiball means that the odds of scum screwing it up are quite high.

[Vorkuta]

Now that you've brought that up, I imagine they have already or will tonight have their claims in a row

So because you guys frustrated me enough to squeeze this out of me we've lost the element of surprise. Congratulations *slow clap*

HOWEVER, there are only 14 letters in total.
Even if scum knows the game state (oh there are 5T's), coming up with a fake claim that won't cause them to out themselves is pretty damn hard.

[Vorkuta]

Vork, would you ask to Massclaim so much in any other game?

Yes- I dislike the "mass claim only before lylo" meta of the site, and feel like MANY MANY problems could be resolved with claiming. And I've played a few games where the "hi I'm a cop, and here's a guilty" guy DIDN'T get NK'd.

Have you played any opens

This is my first open outside of newbie queue

Like the MC stuff is cutting into your own reads, why are you so much more interested in MC than developing reads?

This is multiball, and reads+associations in multiball are much harder to do, and I'm 90% sure that mine suck.

To be clear: I'm not saying "screw you guys, I have no reads". I have the occasional weak/strong read.
However, I would like to rely on something like logic & the process of elimination to supplement my reads.
I think it's a winning strategy BECAUSE, even if the scum team are a bunch of master logicians who have perfectly "lied", there will still be conflicts.
Town/Scumhunting INSIDE these conflicts is much easier than town/scumhunting inside the remaining playerpool IMHO

[Vorkuta]

Remember that scum have a good idea how many T's have been rolledThey therefore know how many I, D, and C's they can safely fake without getting cc'd (until flips happen)

*gasp* no waaaaaay! /s

HOWEVER, when the flips come, people's lies will be outed.
This isn't a "NORMAL" where you can feasibly have all the doctors/cops that the mod can shove down your throats.
There are a finite number of letters remaining.

[Vorkuta]

I prefer your lynch-list for the day

{Dunn/Persyslot(titus)/Duck/A50).

Wow, what safe and completely uncontroversial lynches right?

Dunn I've been pushing since D1
Persy I've 1v1'd with D1 and that has left a bitter tast in my mouth ever since
Duck.... Shoshin didn't like duck.
Penguin/A50... I was told town!penguin is much more active and all that

Creature/Baezu/Fus/elephant can be town

I buy chenn's claim as he outed roster (mafia goon), but I also think he's traitor (or wolf defector) SIMPLY from making assumptions from the setup spec.

I have nothing on dave- he can be a null-town

[Vorkuta]

you hate the idea of claiming in this newbie game

-that was a newbie game when I was green and unexperienced. Like come on.
-I didn't like how (as I originally thought) scum!theworst was trying to use shady techniques to squeeze out more claims than necessary
-the cop won us the game so I'm similarly hoping another follow the cop thing might happen here

one player can hold two PRs in this setup

-You think said player will be experienced/advanced enough to make change the game completely. I.... don't have such faith.
-So it takes 1 flip to get at least 2 letters. BOO YEAH

[Vorkuta]

I'm asking what changed? I'm not saying I expect things to stay the same

I've seen case... where roles that were held by player A would've been gamebreaking HAD TOWN (or really, player B with another PR) known about them earlier on

your thoughts on claiming changed?

I don't like unprompted and anti/town claims.
I like pro-town and coordinated claims from which we can be deduce/infer the state of the game.
I'd rather scum-hunt between 2 players who counter-claimed each other, than scumhunt between "8" players who are doing their own thing.

combo player can't protect themselves

The odds of that actually being the case the game are so low that I don't think it's an issue.

that's obviously anti-EV

I'd rather a player flip a PR, than the player waste all their PR shots completely. (I say this having played vig and shot town a few times).
Like ofc there "are" really good players who's reads and doctor/investig usage is spot on and perfect- case in point, there was only 1 kill N1, and chennis hit his mark.

However I PERSONALLY THINK, that the set up spec, the "contradictions", and the "logic" that outing these roles would bring far outweigh the drawbacks of "oh but this PR use could've changed the game".

I think 1 PR loss is worth our guaranteed scum pool being shrunk down considerably

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta's push on me has been really bad, just saying

Well now that you're existing in the game, I can stop my push on you

[Vorkuta]

Christ.
OK
WE ARE MASS CLAIMING BEFORE ANYONE ELSE has a chance to learn the damn setup.
Dunn begins. NOW

[Vorkuta]

now popcorn it to someone else

[Vorkuta]

Is there a universe that literally anybody else will follow up on it?

I was making food and making sure my oven didn't burn my house down

pedit
lime = jungle medicine = shoshin

[Vorkuta]

you realise shoshin realised I was town after our 1v1 right....

ehhhh spoonfeed this to me. because that's not my impression
If it's true, you can be town

[Vorkuta]

she main outed to stop our 1v1 when it got out of hand because and only because she knows that this is outside my scumrange

Let me reread that and think about whether I agree or not

[Vorkuta]

weird with me that you ignored all the rest of her reads

I'm uh... believing most of her other reads so...

[Vorkuta]

Why exclude 2/4?

don't make me spoonfeed AND spoil any more thigns.
I already really don't like giving up this much info.

*handwaves*
plus this is 1 possible hypothetical example

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Dunn
I'm already voting dunn, but I just want to reemphasize my support.
If there's no more talk of massclaim or anything to determine setup spec and Dunn is just going to stonewall then there's literally nothing else left to do.

[Vorkuta]

What's the game state right now? (I'm doing this for my benefit only)

Assuming 3:3:10
We have -1 mafia and -1 wolf which means
2:2:7 (D3 11 players remaining)

Worst case scenario- no crossfire/protectives and dunn flips green
(2:2):4.... The game isn't over though but probably both scum know the game state without needing any more claims. Shoot

[Vorkuta]

intent

*crickets chirp until dunn decides to check this game again*

[Vorkuta]

Hey skitter!

Did you and baezu catch me? I don't know how subtle I was being (apparently very )

[Vorkuta]

T2 > T1 = traitor
T3 > T1 = traitor with cool powers
T3 > T2 = Rolebook proof OR investigation proof

Hmmm
I'm not a mechanics/gamebalance person but yeah

[Vorkuta]

2/3 Wolf kills were Mafia NKs....
Was this intentional or...?

[Vorkuta]

The game needs a proper Night 0 phase for confirmation and power choices

Can confirm- I have a screenshot of this bug 3/4 of the last people to confirm were scum