Open 769: Venrob's PYP X/Y (Town Wins)

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey duck

VOTE: Wooper

Did you role scum again?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why did so many people pick not-1 for their second number?

Because I picked using a great strategy. I picked Virgil Van Dijk's shirt, then Steven Gerrard's shirt. I see it worked great.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh shit, Aaron fucking frost is here too. Heya Aaron.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I almost feel like scum wouldnt have gone for governor because it's such an obviously scummy pick

Probably not. But if anyone, scum or town, did, we need to know about it.

Sorry folks I'm going to miss most of today and tomorrow for work reasons. I will be back in tonight for a bit, but I'm apologizing for missing a decent bit of RVS.

I think Governor is probably an instant scumclaim. Wasnt it paired with 5shot JOAT? Who would take governor over that?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, what was your reasoning?

I'd rather not discuss it overtly at the moment, though I think it should be somewhat easily inferred. Happy to discuss a bit further down the road.

Had a minute during my lunch break. God I hate posts like this. I was initially confused by Skitter's post that your RVS was scummy, but the explanation made alot of sense. You then shade Skitt for assuming a scummy motivation rather than asking your reasons. Skitt then asks your reasons and you do this vague appeal to some reasoning that you will provide down the road? What can you possibly gain by holding it back? You're not informed unless you're scum, someone's already talked about the draft numbers. There wasnt a n0 action. Wtf are you talking about here?

VOTE: Suji

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Wooper

Scummy rvs vote

If you think its scummy why'd you keep your vote on your random target?

VOTE: Skitter

[Billy Pilgrim]

So last open that I played was haunted village. Vork setup specced way hard, I townread him for it, and turns out he was scum. I'm leaning something smart scum for it this time, because after last game it's a way to get low hanging town points in the early RVS stages.

I like Xayah for turning away from setup spec.

Townlean on Xayah
Scumlean on Skitt for the push w/o vote, and S_S for all that setup spec.

I know others were doing it, but s_s stuck out there.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I know others were doing it, but s_s stuck out there.

Wouldn't scum try not to stick out?

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

This comes across as more of a Mafiascum Buzzword dictionary than an actual point.

If speculating on the setup is not indicative of alignment (and is easily called out as such), then why would scum stick their neck out for "easy town points" that are easily called out as not alignment indicative (and thus not easy town points) so that they can further their objective of [there actually isn't a definition of deepwolf that I can find so I assume it means scum who is universally townread] when it doesn't actually further that objective at all?

Sorry about the jargon. As for your substantive point, in my last open, I just saw setup spec get townread. The idea is that scum have to know something about the setup because in the last game, they picked their powers after knowing what town's powers were. Here they were able.to coordinate draft and picks. So it was perceived as helpful to town to speculate as to what roles may be in the game and how to counter scum's choices. The same motivations apply here. So it's not seen as not alignment indicative. It's generally an easy way to score town points, and for that reason, I see it as kinda scummy. I dont think i would have if I didnt just see a scum team ride early setup spec for town points in my last game. And honestly, s_s was in that game and saw it happen. Now he replaced out and was viged before LYLO, but I dont know why hes acting like I'm way off here. You telling me Vork didnt stick out last game with the setup spec?

Your understanding of deepwolf is what I meant.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not when they're trying to ride setup spec for easy town points so they can deepwolf.

Is that a thing people do?

Vork literally did this in Haunted Village. You were in that game. I know you replaced in after all the early setup spec, but yeah, it happened.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok catching up from my absence.
@nom - in 89, what part of the setup spec was flying over your head?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok catching up from my absence.
@nom - in 89, what part of the setup spec was flying over your head?

not really the setup, more like the numbers discussion I'd say.

I don't buy this. Your 99 was more than competent. I dont know that I see a scum motivation for you claiming incompetence when you clearly had it, but if something starts to feel off, I'm going to revisit this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sorry about the absence. Work stuff. I should be pretty much around now.

Suji seems weirdly protective of S_S. Initially in response to Xayah's questioning for the setup spec thinking 119, then later when I also have concerns about S_S's setup spec (thinking about 169 here).

@Luca, how do you feel about S_S? You didnt mention him in your early reads post.

I dont know what to make of the Luca/Fetched thing.

@Skitt - where did I vote Suji? You made that accusation twice, but I dont think its true.

@Aaron - in Haunted, the setup spec was almost entirely led by scum. The primary contributors from my memory were Vork and NaCl. The people that were trying to end it were all town.

@S_S - while I see what you're saying about Vork being an outlier, I'm going to trust my own experience over your self-report. Also, given your skepticism to RVS, this definitely feels like a way you could have carved out for yourself to come into the game.

@Suji - I dont understand the point of your interaction with Skitt over RVS starting at post 220. Are you scumreading her for projection? It's coming off as strangely defensive to me.

VOTE: Suji

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok catching up from my absence.
@nom - in 89, what part of the setup spec was flying over your head?

not really the setup, more like the numbers discussion I'd say.

I don't buy this. Your 99 was more than competent. I dont know that I see a scum motivation for you claiming incompetence when you clearly had it, but if something starts to feel off, I'm going to revisit this.

my what

Your post 99.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Vork literally did this in Haunted Village. You were in that game. I know you replaced in after all the early setup spec, but yeah, it happened.

Okay, when I ask the question "is that a thing people do?" I should start appending "other than Vork." Dude plays like he's from another planet, especially as scum. He lives off of dumbtelling and derpclearing himself.

It's not a normal thing. Setup spec is not how you deepwolf, least of all me, who has no deepwolf mode to begin with. I, like most people, setup spec because I find it important to talk about the setup, and I've clearly thought harder about it than most people given that 12/14 players didn't pick 1 as their second number.

I was honestly confused why you acted like 1 was such an obvious second number choice, then I re-read the setup and realized that I'm an idiot. I don't know why I thought this, but I assumed that a tie in the second numbers would have that tie broken after the unpicked tie breaker numbers. I now know that I'm a moron and apparently I dont read well. I feel better though because apparently alot of people made that mistake.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh you mean post 99. That comes after me stating that the discussion flies over my head to try and get on board with the discussion. What's strange about that?

That contribution seemed solid though. It seemed right in line with what was being discussed, so I dont understand why you acted like it was over your head, because it seems like it definitely wasnt.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Skitt - my bad, just re-read my posts and saw it. I think work broke my brain on Friday.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Aaron, the above was in response to your 187.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Catching up pages 14-16

@rb - can you explain both parts of 334? Also, that was a quick change from 334 to 337, what happened in between there?

@Fetched - what part of rb's reads did you like in post 341? I dont think you had a reads list up to that point, but I do think you were scumreading Skitt, and at least initially rb said they were town reading Skitt and thought the wagon was bad?


Pages 14 and 15, Kerset does not come off well here. This seems like a weird fight to pick with rb and it's almost immediately from rb's first post in the game.

@Kerset - what's the scum motivation for waiting until page 14 to pop into the game? Didnt the setup say that scum got to talk during the draft? If so isnt it less likely that someone popping in late like this would be scum?

@Aaron - 364 what convinced you to vote Kerset other than rb asking you to?

@rb - why are you comfortable excited even to have Aaron o the wagon given your early read?

I haven't played with scum Luca yet, but this does feel like the town Luca I've played with.

This Kerset/rb 1v1 doesn't seem right. S_S pointing this out makes me dislike S_S's slot less.

@Skitt - I did forget that i voted him, but regardless i dont see how the fact that i voted him addresses my concern with you. You pushed him w/o a vote. You redirecting my concern by saying that I was voting him feels bad.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Catchup from pages 17-21

@nom - referring to 406. given that someone (it may have been you) said S_S plays pretty passively as scum wouldnt his lack of scumread also be part of his scum!game?

As of now, I dont like either of the Kerset/rb slots.

@Suji, could you explain the reads from 470?

Aaron's 477 feels like a way to try and keep the discussion on Kerset and rb and off of him. I dont know that scum would be so transparent about this, but it pinged me. Liking S_S even more when hes talking about the player list rather than theory and mechanics though.

@S_S - in 486, why me over either of the other leading wagons that that moment?

Skitter's read of the rb slot and interaction with nom over it feels better than the early game.

@Luca - why are you ruling out s v s on Kerset/rb at 503?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont like the rb wagon right now. My read came around on that. Aaron isnt a bad vote at the moment, but I think Kerset is the best chance for scum at the moment. Their weird interaction upon rb's entrance. The vote on rb after rb was scumreading them. The poor reaction to pressure. Theres not anything really townie in the iso.

VOTE: Kerset

@S_S I'm confused why Skitt looks worse after a town Kerset flip. Care to explain? I dont generally do pre-flip associatives but I'd like to know where you're coming from.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Aaron - 364 what convinced you to vote Kerset other than rb asking you to?

Pretty much wanted to move off of nom for the time being and onto someone else + the reasons I laid out in 295.

I linked to the wrong fucking post lmao

Meant to link to 356

You weren't on nom there though. You were on Skitter. And at 484, you said you were still scumreading her but not enough to push.

So you're still scumreading Skitt at 484, but it was Skitt that caused you to rethink your rb read and you voted rb at Skitt'direction after earlier voting Kerset at Skitt's direction. Who are you town reading and why? You said you wanted to move off of nom, but it was Skitt, so why did you want to move off of Skitt given that as late as 484, you were still scumreading her?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm still honestly confused by your Billy scumread

pedit: I have doubts on Skitter scum, I have empirical evidence that she tends to make weird reads based on a few factors

it's a read that's getting a little stale i think

but i dont' like how he basically went from

voting suji for his bad reaction to my initial vote on him

and then

went to ~voting me for making that vote

~

it looks like he reread the game and forgot what his original position was, and made up a new one.

like i don't know how he gets to the exact opposite conclusion there when he reads the same posts a couple of different times

It looks to me like you got this timeline wrong. You started out voting PM. Theres some setup spec, then Suji comes in with the naked vote at 34. At 51, Skitter calls out Suji for the scummy RVS vote. Theres a discussion between Suji and Skitt but Skitt doesn't vote Suji. I initially vote Suji based on Suji's explanation appealing to these vague reasons that Suji doesn't explain, but then promises that they'll give reasoning later. Then at 77, I realize that Skitt's pushed Suji, even had a small 1v1 and never voted them. That felt even scummier than Suji's request for more time so I voted Skitt. Skitt doesn't vote me until 218 at a time when me and Suji are both voting Skitt.

So Skitt, I voted you initially for making a push without a vote, now you're claiming that I voted you after you voted me but the opposite is true. Whyd you get that wrong?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont like the rb wagon right now. My read came around on that. Aaron isnt a bad vote at the moment, but I think Kerset is the best chance for scum at the moment.

a) what do u think of the fact that i was voting rb
b) i feel like you're positioning yourself to get onto aaron if that wagon ever happens, which i find to be a convenient read to have given that several other people have stated scumreads on aaron

a) at the time I cast my vote, the entire rb wagon were my scum leans. So I didn't like your vote either if that's what you were asking.
b) I had an option between three equal wagons when I voted, Kerset, Aaron, and rb. I think Kerset has been playing slightly more scummy than Aaron, but at the moment, I'd lynch anywhere in that pool. FWIW, I think you have the most scum equity of the three.

I think your early push w/o a vote on Suji was bad. I think you then misrepped the situation and acted like you had voted him. And you did the same thing, acting like you voted me and I reacted to your vote, when I had voted you first, and your vote was probably a reaction to mine.

VOTE: Skitter

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think your early push w/o a vote on Suji was bad. I think you then misrepped the situation and acted like you had voted him. And you did the same thing, acting like you voted me and I reacted to your vote, when I had voted you first, and your vote was probably a reaction to mine.

Can you link the relevant posts here?

Sure, initial rvs vote is 11.
Push w/o a vote is 50
I vote Suji at 60
I vote Skitt at 77
Skitt votes me at 218
The misrep is at 684

I think that's it, but if I made another claim that you want me to link to let me know.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Don't know how I feel about the topic just being behind the Kerset and rb slot. Kerset has really bad arguments but the approach they bring to the game feels towny. I think we should still go for Aaron here. Rb is just gonna be...well rb

Bad post. Trying to distract from the Kerset/rb discussions.

@Aaron, in response to 699, this to me didnt feel like you fighting you fighting your wagon by voicing opinions on who was scummy. This was you literally trying to shut down conversation on anything that wasnt rb/Kerset.

[Billy Pilgrim]

S_S at 60, I had just seen the RT from Suji. Those things drive me crazy in general, and I usually scumread them, because they feel like a lie. You can check my last newbie game where i scumread Farkran for one early on. By 77, Suji admitted that it was a RT but he committed to having answers within a day so I figured I could reassess at that moment. So I reread the thread and realized that despite the the initial push that it was scummy and then the 1 on 1, Skitt had never placed a vote on Suji, which in retrospect given the interaction felt worse.

So no Skitt I didnt come to opposite conclusions. I didn't like your push w/o a vote and I didnt like Suji's initial response. After Suji discussed that he wanted more time, I figured that I would revisit that later. I felt like Suji's explanatioj for the RT was legitimate, and so I wasnt concerned about it at that point, and because the explanation addressed my concern, I forgot I had ever voted him. Once I decided to give Suji more time, it became more pressing to sort your slot over the push w/o a vote.

That maintained through some of your follow-ups, so that's what I focused on, and I tend to feel most comfortable assessing people's cases on me (this is probably unjustified confidence, because from my memory I got the last two wrong), so that is why I focused on it. @Kerset, I only have experience with Skitt as a mod, so I dont know what I make of the rest of her play. It feels curt and snippy, but that could be NAI.

And Luca, I'm wordy in all my games. In fact I think the only game where I didnt have an insanely over explained wall was my mini theme game and that was a scum game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm having posting problems so near with me:

@Luca on 762-
Man, I was thinking you were town earlier, but now I'm not sure. I think I've lynched actual scum maybe 3 or 4 times in my multiple months playing here. And I drove the bus on one of them and it was based on how the player sheeped a vote on D1. In all my late day plays I guess wrong on who the last scum is. And you described my town game as good? What are you talking about? I think you happened to see that newbie game where I got Spangled but that's literally the only time I got scum right. So for you to characterize my town game as good feels wrong. TW and Kerset were in a game where some of the dead people thought I was obvtown, but I dont even do a good job of that when I'm trying to play that way normally. Now Luca, that point about my questions feeling shallow, I've heard that one before, and its during my town games. How were they shallow though? I was looking forward progressions and giving people a chance to explain inconsistencies. If I was looking to just jump on it, couldn't I have hopped on Aaron?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Kerset - I'm admitting to you that I dont have anything from the mid game that leans me scum or town with Skitt. And where did I say I had moderate confidence that she was scum? But I think this is an unfair characterization. While I had voted Skitt early, I also invited her to pursue Suji again later. It was when Skitt caught back up and got the timeline from earlier wrong where it looked like to me she was characterizing my vote on her as an OMGUS vote when it felt much more accurate to call her vote on me that. If anything, I'm moving her closer to null at the moment. UNVOTE: Skitt
Is this a disagreement between us where you think that a D1 vote signifies a level of confidence that i dont ascribe to it? I mean I remember feeling off about you last game, and it was probably Micc that assuaged my concerns, is that what's happening again?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Something_Smart now is safe for at least today because of 766. I think it's the first person that got the reference.@S_S - why is me being dead last a factor? Do you really hate Steven Gerrard that much? Ok, this got answered later. Kinda what I figured just wanted to make sure. It's funny. I literally played this game because I wanted to play as a pr. I liked my game with Micc a ton. Then my draft position came in and i was mad because first Virgil failed me, then Stevie G himself blasted a shot into the sky.

Maybe aiming for the least interesting prs saved me though. . .

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Xayah - what information do you feel like persuaded you? And arent you Maria? Why would you trust other's meta reads when we played as scum together? And how are you reading Luca, because it seems like hes the only person that gave information.

@Luca -definitely got me with the not bussing type. I dont think its strategically optimal. My scum game hasn't much evolved from the theory articles I read and they were strongly anti-bussing.

@Skitt - you keep saying I came to opposite conclusions from your 50. Show me that. Show me where I ever liked your 50? I thought Suji had a bad response (side note, wtf happened to Suji?) Why is it a flip in positions for me to be concerned about a bad response to a bad post?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Maria - it was zero escape Mafia mini 2089. I mean I survived all of one day, and we didnt have a whole lot of communication in that pt, so maybe that's why you forgot it.

@S_S care to explain?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Skitt - you keep saying I came to opposite conclusions from your 50. Show me that. Show me where I ever liked your 50? I thought Suji had a bad response (side note, wtf happened to Suji?) Why is it a flip in positions for me to be concerned about a bad response to a bad post?

Ok, what was your reasoning?

I'd rather not discuss it overtly at the moment, though I think it should be somewhat easily inferred. Happy to discuss a bit further down the road.

Had a minute during my lunch break. God I hate posts like this. I was initially confused by Skitter's post that your RVS was scummy,

but the explanation made alot of sense.

You then shade Skitt for assuming a scummy motivation rather than asking your reasons. Skitt then asks your reasons and you do this vague appeal to some reasoning that you will provide down the road? What can you possibly gain by holding it back? You're not informed unless you're scum, someone's already talked about the draft numbers. There wasnt a n0 action. Wtf are you talking about here?

VOTE: Suji

You go from saying my explanation made sense to voting me for my part of this interaction

Yeah, I think my later exchange with you was probably based on a misunderstanding now. I did like your explanation for why Suji's naked vote was scummy. I never said I didn't like your explanation. What I said was that I didnt like how you were pushing Suji without voting him, and then it seems like our exchanges since then appear to be based on not understanding each other.

I feel like I'm off this game and I need to re-read. I can try and get to it tonight.

@S_S - that feels like a fair characterization.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Man, I was thinking you were town earlier, but now I'm not sure.

This is one of the worst lines in the entire string of posts, because it sets your previous reasoning aside and frames Luca as untrustworthy because he made a subjective comment that incriminates you.

Maybe I dont know how he's using the term "good" to describe my town game, but I cant see how hes making that claim. We've got three overlapping games. In one newbie, I got scum D1 and I drove the lynch, and it was based off an under the radar sheep on someone when there was equally valid reason to hop onto someone else. Then I ate the NK.

In my scum game - I got townread by everyone but tchill on D1 for faking two different reaction tests. I then replaced out on D1 when the posting activity picked up too much and I had a pretty important work thing. People used my slot's play later on that day to continue town reading LUV who had replaced into my slot.

In my other town game, Luca was masons with Profii and I strongly opposed lynching scum Kraeg D1. In fact I helped drive a lynch wagon off of Kraeg onto Mohab. I was still looking for a way that Kraeg could be town after there was a jail keeper counterclaim on D2 but I think I ultimately voted there. D3 i was lynched, but I tried to figure out who the last scum was and I directed everyone onto Garmr and basically excluded the last scum from my suspect pool.

Those are the three games I played with Luca. Please tell me how he subjectively interpreted that as good. And tell me how that wasnt an attempt to think that my bad playstyle, which is my norm, was somehow off from my normal game. That's why I made that comment S_S. Because my game isnt good. And I actually have experience with Luca, and I dont know how he reaches that conclusion.

[Billy Pilgrim]

It's a fair characterization? Do you disagree that the behaviors I described are scummy?

It's a fair characterization. I dont disagree that they're scummy behaviors. I wasnt being sarcastic, sorry if you thought I was.

[Billy Pilgrim]

To be clear, my issue is with your 890, not 889. I think 889 was c ok completely fair.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm town reading S_S. I want to reread other folks tonight, but this interaction felt genuine.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I decided that I want to look at everyone's iso to catch up. Dont know how much I'm gonna get to immediately but hopefully in the next 24 hours I will have re-read. I'm gonna go in ascending post order.

PMysterious- 3 posts. Really only one post of content where he voted rb. And the given reason was that he felt that rb's reason that Kerset had changed playstyles was NAI.

This slot is 36 hours away from prod range again, and the last time they got prodded, they posted to let us know they'd catchup, then waited 24 hours to give us that one post.

This slot is bad, but we should be able to deal with this through prs in some way.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Xayah - I liked her entrance into the game to have people focus on players rather than setup spec.
But theres this weird thing where she originally calls S_S obvscum because of the setup spec. Then when Suji addresses her about why S_S is obvscum, she cases it.

Then about 2 days later, she walks it back saying that she over blew the case a bit.

Her progression on me feels pretty natural. I don't know what to make of her comments re:Skitter when commenting on Skitter's vote on me. She called it a weird vote. Not bad but weird. So I don't know what that means. Then she hops on me for reasons that are a bit unclear, because she said not her first choice but that the information is good enough for her to join. Its strange to me that she didnt really give reasons when she shaded at least 2 people earlier for not giving reasons. But then 950, she is responding to Skitter and says that she doesn't have much on me in the first place, and since she didnt think she could get her confident scumread

lynched she went with her plan B. Maria, you want cases from everyone else, but it seems like you don't feel a need providing them. Then she's back on me at 979 when Luca asks her to provide an associative. I didnt even post in between those two posts. So this doesn't feel natural. She went from not having alot on me to me being the first associative for Aaron when pressed.

I think 951 is pretty scummy, in terms of questioning everyone who they think they're associated with.

She hopped on Aaron, who admittedly was her primarybscumread it seems, when that wagon took off, but she admitted at 953 that she didnt feel like driving the wagon.

992 feels scummy as well. I dont understand why she feels the need to be so self-aware before voting her scumreads.

This slot doesn't feel town anymore. I want to iso the other slots before I vote somewhere though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey y'all, sorry about my inactivity this whole game and particularly the past couple of days. My moods been off and it's been difficult to focus on playing. I dont want to replace out so I'm gonna keep trying. I will get a catchup post within 24 hours.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If the consolidation options are me or Xayah I'm picking Xayah. After my last post, I liked the reads list, but I think that both before and after the reads list, she is shading the people that's she's either saying she's ignoring (like rb) or that she's town reading (like fetched). I think this is giving her alot of room to flip back over if need be so she can show that consistent progression of reads like she mentioned earlier.

Again, sorry about my level of activity, and if I make it to tomorrow it will get better, but i think theres a good chance we're down to two scum tomorrow.

VOTE: Xayah

@mod sorry about mentioning replace.