Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[lilith2013]

boop

[lilith2013]

hi!

shall we execute from the top down as is customary for PYP?

VOTE: lilith

hey I didn’t choose the thug life, the thug life chose me

[lilith2013]

i only offer cake to my loyal flock of sheep.

please demonstrate you are a sheep.

Bah bah black sheep have you any wool
Yes sir yes sir three bags full
One for the master and one for the dame
One for the little boy who lives down the lane.

you know this song is talking

to

the sheep?

VOTE: jacksonvirgo

[lilith2013]

boop

[lilith2013]

Nah, just making an observation that's meant to spark conversation (like it did!).

And I've been scum in x|y setups twice and multitasking is vastly more useful imo, you can get a p decent sense of the spread of roles just from knowing where scum sits in the draft + like two flips/claims

Also obligatory max one scum in each of the sets of 4's and 5's, imo

Multitasking is more useful if you assume scum are never picking the same numbers, but I feel like informed would be the optimal choice if they deliberately tanked their PR chances by trying to hide in the multi-picks

[lilith2013]

@skitter what did you not like about my vote on JV?

what information do you expect to get from a wagon that interacting with me wouldn't give?

[lilith2013]

oh

[lilith2013]

It's 2 minutes, maybe I'm reading too much into this?

You're definitely reading too much into it

Ok I believe you, vote stays

Why?

[lilith2013]

I find scum more likely to say "I may be bad but not scum" since people don't like to admit they're wrong. "feels a little off" is way down in confidence from where you were just a second ago too.

can you explain where he said "I may be bad but not scum"? and also what makes you think the second post is less confident than the first post? I'm reading them as the opposite.

[lilith2013]

skitter, why do you think SS is towny?

[lilith2013]

@skitter what did you not like about my vote on JV?

what information do you expect to get from a wagon that interacting with me wouldn't give?

I actually dont have much thoughts on your jv vote!
Or more accurately, the jv vote by itself is fine and i dont have an opinion on it, but the lack of contributing real content (i.e. in that you only made an rvs vote) at a stage of the game where there was actually real things to talk about felt kinda scummy from you

Idk if i'm necessarily expecting a particular bit of information from wagoning you, so much as it was a: 'i'm trying to get your attention and lets see what you'll do next!' type vote
Also i'm like soulreading you as scum off your entrance so decided to vote you till i got more to work with, which would hopefully be prompted by being voted

So you think that voting me while I'm away is going to make me come back and produce content?

[lilith2013]

skitter, why do you think SS is towny?

Feels a bit more invested/involved than i think scum!him would be

I am really sad to say that i think you rolled scum this game

I don't have any townpings from SS from so far, which... based on my read meter for him, means he's probably scum.

[lilith2013]

okay so I have a super crazy wild theory that SS and skitter are scum together and the reason that skitter's scumreading me so early is because they know I can read SS really well

[lilith2013]

38 posts! that's a lot of posts. I usually have a townread by post 20

[lilith2013]

okay this is getting pretty old

[lilith2013]

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top and her reaction to me talking about you also felt partnery to me.

[lilith2013]

... because I have zero filter?

[lilith2013]

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top

Hmm? His response to that was along the lines of "This is interesting, I wonder what to think. Slightly scummy."

The fact that he called it out at all feels like not-SS to me. It also reminded me of this post:

ngl, the speed is very unnerving.

Honestly, I think the number of people who immediately popped in to express their dislike for the wagon is much more notable.

in which he avoids interacting with the wagon, similarly to how he avoided commenting on the JV wagon here.

[lilith2013]

goddammit

[lilith2013]

Yeah, this is opportunistic wagon hopping.

Is it opportunistic if JV is scum?

do you think JV is scum?

[lilith2013]

what's the point of the question then?

[lilith2013]

S_S feels like the voice of reason in this game which to me feels townie but the lack of substantial reads is concerning

Have you developed any outside of saying PP felt towny a while ago?

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top

Hmm? His response to that was along the lines of "This is interesting, I wonder what to think. Slightly scummy."

The fact that he called it out at all feels like not-SS to me. It also reminded me of this post:

ngl, the speed is very unnerving.

Honestly, I think the number of people who immediately popped in to express their dislike for the wagon is much more notable.

in which he avoids interacting with the wagon, similarly to how he avoided commenting on the JV wagon here.

Ok so I don't have a ton of history with s_s, but other people seem to, so this seems like something that should be easily resolved? Either town!s_s tries to solve by asking sideline questions without throwing out a ton of opinions of his own, or he doesn't. I thought it was the former based on this interaction:

s_s, do you think it's important that people don't develop reads for bad reasons? (Don't remember that much about how you tend to play)

Sorry, missed that.

Yes, extremely.

I would rather have no reads than have reads based on bad reasons.

but I don't really feel like doing the meta research so if someone who's played with s_s before could give input that'd be great.

lack of reads NAI for SS
sideline opinions are whatever, NAI as an action in itself, but the way he said it felt very similar to a scumgame we had together, and I think it’s out of character to comment on skitter there but not the JV wagon or JV themselves

[lilith2013]

okay so I have a super crazy wild theory that SS and skitter are scum together and the reason that skitter's scumreading me so early is because they know I can read SS really well

What about Skitter do you think has been scummy thus far?

Does her ability to read you also go vice versa (as in she said she's good at reading you)

The rest of her play is pretty much null for me - like it’s towny but not in a way that I think is unfakeable, especially from skitter. I’m more commenting on her coming out of the gate scumreading me and basically doubling down now. I don’t think I’m particularly good at reading her? But I also don’t think she’s as good at reading me as she thinks (tangentially, I would have agreed with her before my most recent game, but after playing a mini normal I think the number of players in a game impacts my gameplay quite a lot; and in retrospect, this applied before my site-hiatus as well - any game over 9 players basically has me flailing around regardless of alignment.) so I think town!skitter would believe what she’s saying about me, but again... I don’t particularly think it’s fakeable.

[lilith2013]

have work calls, will try to finish catchup later

[lilith2013]

Why would that be cause for a scumread?

Idk
I feel like i should have more pushback and more people suspicous of my motivations

ummmmm maybe because you’re doing scum’s work for them??? we all know I’m a PR unless I was a complete doofus and didn’t submit a pick. if you’re town, scum are fucking salivating over the thought that they didn’t have to do

anything

and I got handed to them on a platter.

Since the jig’s kind of up at this point - I knew I’d be an obvious NK target for being first draft pick, I was hoping to not be incredibly obvtown to the point that it got me killed N1 so I could maybe get something useful done before I died. Hence being a lurksack. Unfortunately I underestimated how awful I play when under pressure and your determination to wagon me.

anyway, there are a bunch of people on the wagon for shitty reasons/“for pressure”/“because someone else wanted it” - I think DGB and infinity are scummy as hell, their votes are opportunistic, I agree with peta that DGB’s catchup post was a whole lot of head-scratching. I’m not sure I’m up for my typical play atm given that I... think I have covid, but I’m gonna try to be coherent before I fall asleep again.

[lilith2013]

@SS if you're town, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but like, you calling out skitter on her response to JV's townread on her felt over the top

Hmm? His response to that was along the lines of "This is interesting, I wonder what to think. Slightly scummy."

The fact that he called it out at all feels like not-SS to me. It also reminded me of this post:

ngl, the speed is very unnerving.

Honestly, I think the number of people who immediately popped in to express their dislike for the wagon is much more notable.

in which he avoids interacting with the wagon, similarly to how he avoided commenting on the JV wagon here.

S_S said this is a general feature of his playstyle though (in regards to being hesitant with votes), has he done this as town as well?

In a vacuum I would say an unwillingness to get involved in wagons/voting is scummy but if it's a consistency across his play than I don't know how much I can take from it.

as I said earlier today, him not voting is NAI. unfortunately I don’t think I can articulate this any better :/ my method of reading SS is like, 95% gut. this doesn’t feel like town!SS to me. I can attempt to say which posts made me think that and why but most of the time it’s not going to make sense to anyone else.

[lilith2013]

I... think I have covid

Sorry to hear this, hope everything's all right.

thanks <3 getting tested tomorrow, fingers crossed.

[lilith2013]

thanks guys <3

skitter, can you do a tldr on town!infinity? I’m still on like page 20ish but there were a few things that pinged me iirc

[lilith2013]

Um, what? votes is plural because you and infinity both voted me? what?

[lilith2013]

no response to the opportunism though?

VOTE: dgb

[lilith2013]

@hoopla I learned the hard way that “scumslips” are usually not scumslips

[lilith2013]

I can’t believe this is an argument

Your ONE vote on me and infinity’s ONE vote on me are BOTH opportunistic

[lilith2013]

Spoiler:

Why?

I find scum more likely to say "I may be bad but not scum" since people don't like to admit they're wrong. "feels a little off" is way down in confidence from where you were just a second ago too.

This reasoning still applies, I think tgp is trying to get read as "bad town"

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

This is not quite "I may be bad but I'm not scum" but it's close enough. "Feels a little off" is something you'd use to describe a post from someone you were otherwise townreading, not a hard scumread usually.

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

Jackson why are you focusing on NAI stuff so much, this is literally just about theory.

I don't see it as nai but if you want to explain why that'd be neat

Like, s_s made a post about his opinion on mafia in general (i.e., that good reads are hard to get as town or fake as scum). Do you think he could be lying?

@lilith these felt like a townie approach to me ^

I can see it with the last two. what about the first two posts is towny?

I think I’m mostly pinged by the timing of his vote, at the height of my wagon, in response to posts that I think I’d make as either alignment - like these are all discussions we’ve had before and I’ve made probably very similar posts in multiple games (me vs SS, me vs you) and it doesn’t help me to lie there because if I’m scum and you’re town and you know I’m faking the conversation then I’m easy to catch. (this made sense in my head, sorry)

[lilith2013]

A lot of people just hopped off of Lilith. From l-1 to l-5

this is alarming to me.

when a wagon collapses for no apparent reason, it's usually because it was artificially inflated (ie; scum driven), which implies lilith is town. skitter was the only person who put in real effort for her lilith vote. everyone else seemed to be riding on her coattails.

who's scum?

i think DGB/davesaz was the tipping point and most suspect. i probably prefer davesaz over DGB, if only because DGB is doubled up with pine.

VOTE: davesaz

Why wouldn’t you vote DGB just because she’s doubled up? Why does that preclude her from being scum, unless you’re scumreading Pine and think that scum wouldn’t be doubled together?

[lilith2013]

I should clarify though that I haven't read those same games, but more the concept that Lilith isn't either town or scum here

There seems to be a lot of "this could reasonably come from a town perspective" which is something we were frowning upon when Infinity was doing it earlier. The same should apply here.

We shouldn't have to perform yoga stretches to determine if something could come from a town perspective. I understand things can be NAI but this feels quite fence-sitty

he’s actually said very similar things about me in other games. He has like extra-paranoia about me? I think it’s a bit more town-indicative than not, but also I’ve never been town in a game with scum!SS so I don’t actually know how he’d approach me as scum.

[lilith2013]

I mean I’ve locktowned him every time he’s been town, and when I read his games that I’m not in I read him correctly, but I’ve never been in a game with scum!SS so I’m talking specifically about how he would approach me. He knows literally all of that so I’d expect he would be trying really hard to play to how he thinks I think of him as town.

[lilith2013]

that’s @peta’s 993

[lilith2013]

Hi mena!!!!!!!


(good news, rapid test came back negative; bad news, I still have *some* unknown viral infection and have basically been too tired to move. It’s been a fuuuun week)

[lilith2013]

Why wouldn’t you vote DGB just because she’s doubled up? Why does that preclude her from being scum, unless you’re scumreading Pine and think that scum wouldn’t be doubled together?

it doesn't preclude her from being scum. but it's a useful tiebreaker between close candidates.

Do you have reads on davesaz or DGB apart from their position on my wagon?

[lilith2013]

Hi lil!!!! It is super nice to see you but I do have some concerns that you may be planning to murder me during the night

(Re:IRL I really hope you feel better soon :/) )

D: after the bond we shared?! I’m wounded


(thank you <3)

[lilith2013]

If she’s scum trying to push a wagon on me through and has the support and is confident she’ll be able to wriggle out of any resulting suspicions after my flip (which would be the reason she felt comfortable pushing me in the first place), then there’s no reason for her to back off at E-1. That makes me think she’s town

[lilith2013]

Lil, what do you think of infinity? What did you make of skitter’s points on his being town?

There was some earlier stuff in his ISO that pinged me and I thought his vote on me was really scummy. I think I responded to skitter’s quotes already - there was like one set of posts that I thought was fine but the other set I didn’t really see town motivation for

[lilith2013]

I can’t remember if I mentioned it already or not, but his early posts seemed very “agreeable” with everyone, even people he was scumreading

[lilith2013]

sorry I’m so slow aghhhhh

[lilith2013]

soooooooooooooooo

VOTE: mena

[lilith2013]

oh my god. So sorry JV

[lilith2013]

idk if Dunn’s softing the no-kill but I think he’s town

[lilith2013]

I’m pretty sure Dunn just picked up my attempt to soft, you can stop questioning him. I jailkept mena last night.

[lilith2013]

I don’t really think mena would have been a priority kill last night given how low he is in the draft, I think it’s more likely that he was chosen to make the scum kill since they don’t have multitasking and he’s unlikely to have a PR (which is why I figured it was safe to JK him).

[lilith2013]

I don’t really understand how not saying that you chose a memey number in part because it would be a single pick is lying/scummy. Isn’t that a given?

[lilith2013]

I feel like scum dont usually pursue a tunnel from day-today like that, a night kinda serves as a reset and you need to be super committed to keep pushing that push all on your lonesome, when it keeps seeming like nobody else cares enough to join

I think scum arent that commited/focused and would have dropped it to pursue some other shiny object

I also disagree with this. It’s almost easier to push someone no one else is paying attention to because you don’t actually have to follow through and interact with a wagon in a nuanced way, no? ie how I tried to push pp in jk9++

[lilith2013]

JV has been stuck on that one reason for scumreading peta for like 100 pages and none of peta’s other posts have influenced that read,


Okay I got a work call and lost my train of thought, idk how that was supposed to end. Something about being a thing I’d do as scum, I think.

[lilith2013]

skitter, why were you cool with revoting mena after I outed if you’re not townreading me?

[lilith2013]

Like why dont i townread you yet ????

I have plenty of theories, but I'm not actually sure you want to hear them

[lilith2013]

I'm not particularly scumreading mena's play either but if I'm responsible for the block, then I don't really see him being a priority NK

Not sure what you think I'm lying about here - the fact that I'm a JK? the fact that I targeted mena? I don't have the ego to lie about either.

[lilith2013]

@mena
- I'm responsible for the block and you performed the NK because you were considered to have the most deepwolf potential/least likely to be blocked or tracked (yes I know for the purpose of this exercise you don't want me to include this but I'm including it anyway) -> mena + {infinity/tgp/JV/dunn?} (people who I think have less deepwolf potential and also auto-voted you after I softed, some of them in awkward ways that I think could have been bussing. JV in particular was like "oh is there a red check? I didn't see. where's the red check?")
- I'm responsible for the block and protected you from being killed -> skitter? infinity? idk if it's someone trying to frame town!infinity by killing you because wouldn't they assume that you'd go after infinity D2 anyway? why kill you to get that miselim instead of a PR? both of them being scum together feels a bit too obvious though.
- I'm not responsible for the block at all and doc/rb is out there that is instead
- I'm not responsible for the block but it's because scum (potentially knowing that there is a JK or doc/rb out there because they attempted to draft and didn't get it) intentionally no-killed to make the JK/doc/rb target look like they were the target or killer

[lilith2013]

actually skitter seems to not be considering at all that you could have been the NK target

[lilith2013]

also on reread I feel like mena/JV could be partners

[lilith2013]

where are you townreading them? iirc you distinctly said you weren't when asked

[lilith2013]

I like the point about how the frame is less likely bc why not just let me pursue town!infinity on D2 and then kill me after I served my purpose if I was wanted dead (and in fact that's a strat I've explicitly used before as scum), which would maybe imply more directly that infinity is just scum, if I was saved by your JK

do you really think the intentional no-kill is a likely scenario, as in, at all?

eh not really, I'm just throwing out possible scenarios. It's last because I think it's the least likely

kinda lowkey interesting that you didn't consider the implications of me claiming cop D1 in any of this, but I'm not sure in exactly what way

again (? actually not sure if I've said this explicitly) I just assumed that anyone low in the draft pick didn't get a PR, which is why I thought it was safe to JK you in the first place.

[lilith2013]

fml sorry quotes

[lilith2013]

I like the point about how the frame is less likely bc why not just let me pursue town!infinity on D2 and then kill me after I served my purpose if I was wanted dead (and in fact that's a strat I've explicitly used before as scum), which would maybe imply more directly that infinity is just scum, if I was saved by your JK

do you really think the intentional no-kill is a likely scenario, as in, at all?

eh not really, I'm just throwing out possible scenarios. It's last because I think it's the least likely

kinda lowkey interesting that you didn't consider the implications of me claiming cop D1 in any of this, but I'm not sure in exactly what way

again (? actually not sure if I've said this explicitly) I just assumed that anyone low in the draft pick didn't get a PR, which is why I thought it was safe to JK you in the first place.

I think this fixes it

[lilith2013]

where are you townreading them? iirc you distinctly said you weren't when asked

oh, right

err, that has changed and I guess I am now

my point still holds about completely undermining that by not sticking to a hardbus/harddistancing if we were partners

I didn't really think you were hard distancing

I mean it looks that way from his side during your wagon at the beginning of the day, but that doesn't require you to bus him back?

[lilith2013]

What made you change your read on JV?

[lilith2013]

I didn't really think you were hard distancing

I mean it looks that way from his side during your wagon at the beginning of the day, but that doesn't require you to bus him back?

right, exactly

if we were partners, it would look like we were hard distancing, that's my point

incidentally, if I were scum, these are exactly the sorts of posts I would be making to fake-spew JV as one of my partners

uh... can you ELI5? I don't get what you're trying to say at all

[lilith2013]

actually skitter seems to not be considering at all that you could have been the NK target

To be fair here I would never consider that either.

What I'm trying to say is that her mind went straight to "lilith must be lying" instead of like, the other 3 scenarios that mena and I were discussing which are imo more plausible (I mean obviously from my perspective I'm telling the truth, but I don't know why the second most likely scenario to skitter is that I'm lying?)

[lilith2013]

again (? actually not sure if I've said this explicitly) I just assumed that anyone low in the draft pick didn't get a PR, which is why I thought it was safe to JK you in the first place.

[lilith2013]

hi I think I finally caught up


I think tgp’s reasoning for being on the DGB and mena wagons is super awkward and like he has no personal feelings about either of them but is/was voting them purely because of logic, which is fine in itself, but I feel like he’s trying to pass it off as scumreading them. and then trying to not take responsibility for being on the wagons because “his vote didn’t matter” even though he was the L-1 vote on both.

VOTE: tgp (L-1)

(As an aside, I feel a bit like I’m in perma-catchup mode due to rl and it kind of sucks. I’m hoping I can be more free soon to actually interact with people in real time because that’s where I do best.)

[lilith2013]

I don't know, I feel like he's reasonably towny in his interactions with skitter (reasonably because I haven't played with scum!mena but I imagine he's a pretty competent player who knows what he's supposed to sound like as town) and I think it's less unlikely that I didn't actually block the kill than I originally thought

[lilith2013]

@hoopla/infinity/tgp/peta why is dunnstral scummy?

okay yeah

i'm confident in hoopla being scum

@tgp why are you okay with being on the same wagon as your most confident scumread and not on the wagon of, say, your most confident scumread?

[lilith2013]

Well maybe we'll actually be allowed to push people near the top of the list instead of giving them a pass by virtue of being at the top of the list

No one’s stopping you from pushing me? the person who was insisting that a wagon on first draft pick was bad was the person you were supposedly scumreading today, so why would you put stock in it?

I don’t believe town!you scumreads me and decides she can’t push me just because other people think I’m probably town. When has that ever stopped you?

[lilith2013]

I jailkept infinity.

I think informed is overall suboptimal compared to multitasking but might make more sense for a scumteam with good draft positions, in line with that

You take cop to deny it to town, but you also need to know another role you can claim instead of cop to avoid having to give hard innos throughout the game and limit your options — which would actually like up v well with JK if no-one took it

I'm pretty sure I can prove that I actually have JK, but don't really want to say anything else on this until/unless we have a massclaim.

Lil, explain why you took JK when you get here?

.. because I was guaranteed to get the slot I wanted and I thought I had a reasonable shot at doing things with JK?

[lilith2013]

why would scum kill me given the way the wind is blowing? leave whichever of skitter/mena is town alive and they go after me anyway, there's no need to waste a night kill on me.

[lilith2013]

I am legitimately really, really sorry that I haven't been around. The reason I got super sick/thought I had COVID in the first place is that I've been working crazy hours for the past couple months and burnt myself out. I keep being told that it's about to end so I thought I'd have more time to actually pay attention to this game, and then it doesn't work out that way and I'm still working crazy hours.

[lilith2013]

because I was guaranteed to get the slot I wanted and I thought I had a reasonable shot at doing things with JK?

My point is more like, why not take doc or cop?

it was between doc/rb and tracker/JK slots and I ended up going with JK so I could potentially both block and save. I have some traumatic memories of being eliminated as town cop so I didn't really consider taking it.

pedit: infinity, hoopla?, jv????

[lilith2013]

dunn softed??? I thought he was hinting at something else entirely and that’s why I thought he was town.

also yeah, why does dunn get a pass for a soft?

[lilith2013]

I know I have a bunch of outstanding questions and will try to get to them later. @mena primarily

[lilith2013]

okay I’m probably not going to have enough brain energy for efforting before the day ends. tldr on scumreads:

infinity - I don’t think he really interacted with either elimination wagon, and was townreading TGP but as far as I can tell didn’t really try to divert that wagon away; if mena was the N1 kill, then I think infinity is one of the players with the most to gain from mena dying. He’s also spent a majority of the game harping on hoopla without it going anywhere, conveniently. I think it’s possible they’re bussing given the heat hoopla was receiving on D1 for the 4s thing, which is also the thing I think infinity has been most vocal about, which leads me to hoopla. the townreading-tgp-but-not-really-trying-to-stop-wagon is mostly what I was thinking about when I jked him, I think?
hoopla - I feel like the majority of her content has been mech-based which isn’t scummy necessarily, but it’s easy to hide behind so I don’t think it’s super town-indicative. potential for bussing with infinity - made some weird vague statements about him D1 without much follow-up. I don’t really have a strong read but it makes less un-sense to me than other people
jv - on D1 jumping on everyone for anything that could be remotely shaded, and their read on peta never evolved past “peta lied about draft picks.” From what I remember, town!NM usually shows at least some sign of solving and hasn’t shown that here. again not a super strong read but I don’t really know what else makes sense.

I don’t really think dunn is scum based on his claim - I think he picked what he said he picked. When I softed, it felt like he had a very similar reaction to you (mena) when you realized you had picked the JK/tracker slot and didn’t get it. Is your issue that he came to the same conclusion that you did but at a time when he shouldn’t have had enough information to do so? Or that he seemed to accept you as the killer too quickly when he should have known it wasn’t an unequivocal guilty? I was/am treating his reaction to my soft as town because it seemed natural for town!dunn to accept my soft right away.

[lilith2013]

Mena was there other stuff you asked me? I looked through your ISO and couldn’t find anything else

[lilith2013]

Calling bullshit on mena. I jailkept NM last night. I think mena is lying about being blocked to avoid having to give more results.

Also mena’s play D3 makes no sense as a cop receiving an innocent result on skitter. I want crumbs.

[lilith2013]

I jailkept NM last night.

why?

Because I thought he might be scum? Because he was unlikely to be a TPR? because he was unlikely to be a scum PR so he was more likely to be the one making the kill?

[lilith2013]

Also mena’s play D3 makes no sense as a cop receiving an innocent result on skitter. I want crumbs.

[lilith2013]

you called skitter likely scum and me locktown at one point. that’s not a thing that a cop with an innocent on skitter does.

[lilith2013]

if you’re a cop and you don’t have an innocent on me then why would you say something that could be taken that way?

[lilith2013]

I don’t (didn’t) know what the “widely accepted meta way” is. I have close to 0 knowledge of what the proper “mechanics” for PR usage is.

[lilith2013]

I have to go back to work but I still think mena is lying.