Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[ben dover123]

reeeeeee I almost forgot about this game.

VOTE: Scipio1 OMGUS

[ben dover123]

Wait, this isn’t the scum PT

what the heck

[ben dover123]

...this game is about to bring every meme imaginable.

also stealing pagetop

Pedit: DANG IT

[ben dover123]

hello ladies and gentelmen, very secret and sneaky hydra here

VOTE: penguin eating popcorn in a laid back way, probably scum watching town tearing themselves apart from the sidelines

very sus profile pic

[ben dover123]

More energy from Gypyx is a good sign, the only reason he was able to keep the energy levels up in Tenet was he had a scumteam breathing down his neck. Of his own volition I'd be comfortable slotting them as town, but will reevaluate later if I notice him losing steam.

2/10

Ninja-
Meh I'm standing by the townread

Do you have one of those "10 post limits"?

scipio town, penguin hard town.

Can I question these reads?

[ben dover123]

Can I question these reads?

You most certainly can!

Ok, I'd like to ask why you have those 2 reads then.

Pedit:

@ben why do you not acknowledge my vote on you?

Why would I need to? What I saw is just a plain RVS vote with no reasoning that I think I don't need to address.

[ben dover123]

@ben why do you not acknowledge my vote on you?

Why would I need to? What I saw is just a plain RVS vote with no reasoning that I think I don't need to address.

i voted secret hydra for rvs

vote on you was not rvs

I suppose I interpreted the vote wrong but you showed no reasoning to say it was not an RVS vote and now I'd like to hear why you voted me for non-RVS.

hello memers

Sorry, meme-free zone. No fun allowed.

[ben dover123]

I see Datisi has given his reasoning to vote me and I'll hopefully respond soon but I'll likely be gone for a bit. Just something I want to mention now while I'm still around.

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE:

partly, yeah. though all three of his posts (after the first one) just gave me a bad vibe. like i'd expected him to be more solve-y by then rather then if that makes sense.

I'm probably not going to be as solve-y as I have been in my last couple of games given that I want to take this game slow and get good reads/analysis over time. In my usual proactive style 1. I get burned out after the game and 2. my analysis isn't too great when I'm being overly proactive. So I'm planning to fix that here and try getting more accurate reads and raise my standards for giving out reads.

Spoiler: Stuff I noticed

I think the Scipio dumbslip is completely NAI, even his reaction afterwards is something I think scum!scipio can still do.

Infinity's engagement is giving me some nice town vibes early on. Datisi also is engaging with the thread well imo.

Bridgeburners is fluffposting like crazy and stuff like this gives me town vibes as well but not exactly vibes I trust.

Isis' opening is very empty and I'd like to hear more from her.

Everyone else is NAI for me currently.

[ben dover123]

I'm probably not going to be as solve-y as I have been in my last couple of games given that I want to take this game slow and get good reads/analysis over time. In my usual proactive style 1. I get burned out after the game and 2. my analysis isn't too great when I'm being overly proactive. So I'm planning to fix that here and try getting more accurate reads and raise my standards for giving out reads.

Don't really like this as a response to Datisi's probing. Feels like kind of a weasely way to get out of being caught- "yeah, I'm not playing to my town meta, but it's totally intentional".

It also *kind of* sidesteps the point, you can be solve-y without necessarily handing out free reads early.

Usually people accuse me of lacking proactivity and being solve-y so I provided reason to why I am like so this game. It's very understandable that he has such a concern given that there is a pretty stark contrast to this version of my playstyle and my usual dose of over-proactiveness.

Honestly I thought being solve-y was all about sorting people and getting reads on everyone. Also at the time I hadn't found too much AI stuff to latch onto but it seems like discussion is finally picking up now.

I'm not sure about Isis' analysis for implo being scum, it seems a little bit of a stretch to me.

how is that a townslip? doesn't this setup only have a godfather a quarter of the time or something?

No, take a look at the setup page: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B

Godfather is only in the C9++ version of the setup.

I also think there is a pretty solid chance that bridgeburners are scum but that is very definitely something to litigate later.

Can you expand on this read for me? I can't grasp the "bridgeburners being scum" take yet.

[ben dover123]

the caps lock part is what I was wondering about? Why is implo towny there

@isis

if that post doesn't read towny to you I feel like you have a PT with some other players you could ask about it

it's very analytical

I would like to know others' thoughts on this post actually

What's the "caps lock part" that is referenced in the first quote? I can't find it anywhere and I'm probably missing something.

[ben dover123]

WHY WOULD YOU START DISMANTLING MY PET SCUMREAD ON YOU WHEN I POLITELY ASKED YOU NOT TO

This one

Oh I see. No offense but I don't see how implo expanding on your read of me to Scipio makes him towny either. The way Isis has worded that post is weird to me as well. How does having access to talking with other player change how you view that 1 post by implo?

[ben dover123]

How does having access to talking with other player change how you view that 1 post by implo?

Do you think everyone can talk to other people in a PT?

No, but I'm still not sure how that relates to the read in general.

[ben dover123]

She's implying that I'm scum if I don't find the post towny

Well...not by the way she worded it. If she said you are scum if you don't find that one implo post towny then she could have said it straight up but she chose to say that if you don't find implo's post towny then you have outside influence in some way. That's the question I'm trying to figure out here.

[ben dover123]

She was just saying it in a clever way, scum have scumbuddies they can talk to

Sigh. Maybe I'm just going mad with my logic.

I'll be waiting for the explanation to why that particular post is towny. Still not seeing it.

[ben dover123]

Why are people arguing about v/la. That's completely NAI regardless of meta and not and I think it honestly is borderline angleshooting.

Anyways gn all.

[ben dover123]

Why are people arguing about v/la. That's completely NAI regardless of meta and not and I think it honestly is borderline angleshooting.

Anyways gn all.

[ben dover123]

Pingu
Sec-hyd
Infinity

Datisi
Implo
Notsci
AFF

N_M
Ben Dover

Schiavetto
Scipio

Isis

-QB

Why are people TR'ing Penguin? I don't see it.

I'm slightly mindmelding with Infinity's Occam Razor explanation because I'm pretty sure that a attack as bad as Isis' comes from town a little more than it comes from scum without any WIFOM involved. More likely that Isis thinks the attack is actually good as town than pushing that bad of an attack as scum for WIFOM purposes.

[ben dover123]

ben

Overall a pretty towny playerlist, considering the bottom four in my readlist are ben and three hard nulls.

Have your reasons for voting me changed at all?

[ben dover123]

Hi all.

VOTE: ben dover not really SRing him, but not townreading him either and I like the wagon composition

VOTE: bend over

VOTE: ben

NM's E-1

This is certainly not what I was looking to see when I came back.

What are the reason for all of these votes? Have I suddenly become consensus scum now?

tbh this now just feels like a dogpile with a wagon this quick. I can't say that scum is on this wagon but it feels way too smooth with these 3 consecutive votes here.

[ben dover123]

In case any of you didn't know, we are just 2 days into the game. Should be common knowledge already but even if I have turned into consensus scum all of a sudden now we still should save time for discussion before a hang.

[ben dover123]

so your defense is that we shouldn't quickhammer because of discussion time and not because, y'know, you're not scum?

I've already defended myself on that front, if you haven't noticed already. And if you want to quickhammer now with 11 days left of discussion, then be my guest.

[ben dover123]

I mean I’m kind of fucking around but also dragging the day out is pointless

I think we should be aiming to get a claim out of someone within the next 3-4 days and to elim in the next 5-6

-QB

Uh, no it isn't. The more time we have to discuss the better. We always want to have maximum info before a hang, especially D1, and people these days have forgotten about this train of thought.

is this all? like, none of the votes ping you anywhere? not questioning anyone? just "oh idk if scum here but quick wagon"?

The last 2 votes definitely ping me, and I have asked for why they voted because it just looks like a flat out dogpile at this point.

[ben dover123]

Uh, no it isn't. The more time we have to discuss the better. We always want to have maximum info before a hang, especially D1, and people these days have forgotten about this train of thought.

no

Uh, no it isn't. The more time we have to discuss the better.

What if I have actual empirical proof that this is untrue?

-QB

Is ms meta quickhammers or something?

Pedit:

I can't say that scum is on this wagon but it feels way too smooth with these 3 consecutive votes here

Why are you more concerned about the latter end?

-QB

Because it basically implicates that most people are leaning towards me!scum and they want my elimination quickly.

[ben dover123]

he played for a couple of days in a game that i was modding recently.

Mini Normal 2187 specifically.

[ben dover123]

Hm, I thought I explained why I didn't accuse my wagon being scum but take 2:

A accusation like "my wagon has scum" usually is baseless and I'm not really certain that scum is on my wagon yet because I have yet to know why people jumped on my wagon which could be telling if there is scum or not. Also, if I am wrong then town will be looking in the completely wrong direction so at the very least I want to have some backing if I'm going to accuse my wagon of having scum.

[ben dover123]

So yeah, I'm not very focused on scum being on my wagon right now because I have 0 evidence for such a accusation, but I do want to know why people jumped on my wagon so quickly and why they want a speedy elimination on me.

[ben dover123]

So yeah, I'm not very focused on scum being on my wagon right now because I have 0 evidence for such a accusation, but I do want to know why people jumped on my wagon so quickly and why they want a speedy elimination on me.

if you are town though then figuring out if there's scum on your wagon should be important yeah?

Yeah, of course, but I haven't really found any proof of such.

[ben dover123]

@ben

do you have any scumreads at the moment?

No, mostly 2 light TR's on Infinity and Datisi, Scipio and Penguin giving me slight townvibes, and Isis may be just town for how bad the attack on Bridge was. The Isis read is definitely the one I don't have much trust in because tstbs is a very shaky subject with many pitfalls but the read in itself feels right to me. Other than that, everyone is mostly null to some degree.

[ben dover123]

Also it seems like I still haven't received a answer for the 2 quick votes by QB and Penguin, were those because of my early game like AFF says?

[ben dover123]

Also it seems like I still haven't received a answer for the 2 quick votes by QB and Penguin, were those because of my early game like AFF says?

Wait...what’s your question to me?

Why did you vote me to put me at E-2?

[ben dover123]

Also it seems like I still haven't received a answer for the 2 quick votes by QB and Penguin, were those because of my early game like AFF says?

Wait...what’s your question to me?

Why did you vote me to put me at E-2?

I like wagons. You were a good one.

Well that's straightforward.

Also @QB that question applies to you too.

Going to get some sleep now, gn.

[ben dover123]

What are people's opinion's on AaronFrost?

Honestly he hasn't done anything of notice and some of what he has done seems a bit hedgy imo (Post #100, Post #293) and then yeah he jumped onto Isis' wagon just as it was gaining traction again. Some good takes in his ISO are Post #84 and Post #366. Also I saw a bunch of places where he repeated what others said but I don't know exactly what that says about him yet (Post #271, Post #299, Post #444).

Overall he's still rather null and I could compromise on voting him now but I want to let my reads sit a bit more given that I have no SR's.

[ben dover123]

Really not liking the Isis wagon cause I'm not seeing why people are suddenly gaining on her. Nothing seems really scummy from her imo and I want some more explanation from the Isis voters.

[ben dover123]

sEcret hYdra has only 1 notable thing, that's the progression from 327 (saying Datisi's scumrange has exploded) to 328 (TR'ing Datisi early) which is weird but I think it's the towny weird? Other than that nothing really is telling from them imo.

bridge is going to be a tough slot to read given that mena and skit are starting to disagree on a bunch of things. Hydras >.>

I'm liking Scipio more and more as time passes. Still wary of them given that I TR'ed them as scum in a newbie game not so long ago but so far he looks fine.

[ben dover123]

Shiavetto, I'd like to question why you put Scipio and bridge where they are currently.

Feels extremely loaded to call it a dogpile in the same post that you're asking for reasoning on the votes.

Well, I do believe I am allowed to call it a dogpile when my wagon gets 3 consecutive votes in less than 2 hours. Not sure how asking for reasoning on the votes correlates negatively when I also call it a dogpile, votes can still have reasoning but the wagon can still be a dogpile.

The whole "I can't say that scum is on this wagon" feels pretty weak here, too, bc all of it just kind of comes back to the fact that you're not actually

attempting

to make sense of the votes.

I am sorting the votes and trying to make sense of them as you have said because "I asked for the reasoning of the votes". What do you believe "attempting to make sense of the votes" means if asking for the reasoning is not that?

No attempt from ben to answer their own question, but plenty of effort invested in (preemptively?) painting the wagon as groundless.

Which question was this?

I believe with the context of how my wagon was formed I can assert it as groundless.

schiavetto,
scipio,
PP
implo
secret hydra
notscience
Datisi
bendover
Infinity
aaronfrost
NM
aaron frost
skitteR

Was that analysis all it took for you to put shiavetto as your top townread?

[ben dover123]

@ben What are your reads looking like atm?

Townread
Datisi
Infinity

townlean
Penguin
Scipio

Nulltown
Isis

Nullish
Schiavetto
notsci
implo
Sec-hydra
N_M
bridge
AFF

[ben dover123]

sEcret hYdra has only 1 notable thing, that's the progression from 327 (saying Datisi's scumrange has exploded) to 328 (TR'ing Datisi early) which is weird but I think it's the towny weird? Other than that nothing really is telling from them imo.

we have early townreads, an attempt at a townblock, a push on isis and those thoughts on datisi

saying we 'only have this 1 thing we did' is a misrep and i don't take those lightly…

-seCret

Sorry, I meant for me. I think you did do other things but really the only part of your ISO that I thought was telling was that 1 progression there.

bridge

Explain

-QB

Before I thought your memes were giving me townvibes but recently your actions, like jumping from scipio, to isis, to me, seem off. I can't put my finger on what's going on yet but I'm starting to dislike the vibe around you. I'll probably have to do an ISO to completely cap my thoughts soon.

[ben dover123]

Well, town apathy is kicking in as you guys said.

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

have your reads changed in any way in the last ~18 hours and if so, how?

No, they have remained the same since then. Nothing has changed for me yet.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

have your reads changed in any way in the last ~18 hours and if so, how?

No, they have remained the same since then. Nothing has changed for me yet.

ok so can you talk to me about why you're voting aff now then? you said earlier he's "rather null" and that you wanna wait a bit until voting. the only +town thing you mentioned about isis was that the early attack was more likely to be bad town. is that still the case? is that the whole reason behind not wanting to join the isis wagon? bc i'm still struggling to follow your thought process here and if you're town i'd really like it if you could show me that?

What are people's opinion's on AaronFrost?

Honestly he hasn't done anything of notice and some of what he has done seems a bit hedgy imo (Post #100, Post #293) and then yeah he jumped onto Isis' wagon just as it was gaining traction again. Some good takes in his ISO are Post #84 and Post #366. Also I saw a bunch of places where he repeated what others said but I don't know exactly what that says about him yet (Post #271, Post #299, Post #444).

Overall he's still rather null and

I could compromise on voting him

now but I want to let my reads sit a bit more given that I have no SR's.

I wanted my reads to sit out a bit more, I never said I was going to wait until voting.

Yes, I am against the Isis wagon because her bad attack feels to come from town more than not, and that seems to be the driving force behind her entire wagon (the bad attack is scummy). I dislike the latter thought process and so in order to counter the wagon/make my serious vote I decided to join AFF.

[ben dover123]

Also just to make sure I'm still looking in the right direction,

@everyone on the isis wagon

are you still voting her because of the V/LA attack?

[ben dover123]

i guess i was wondering if you have an opinion on anything else she's done? also i know you said you could compromise on aff, but i don't think it's that time in the day yet where you *have* to compromise on someone. like, is aff the same level as all the rest of your null reads?

how is that a townslip? doesn't this setup only have a godfather a quarter of the time or something?

^
This post pinged me town as well and that's mostly everything that stood out to me. Post #303 is weird but I don't think it's scum. The reaction to mena's attack was eh and Isis putting Schiavetto right at the top of her reads after 1 catchpost is questionable but that doesn't really change my read on her.

Also, no AFF is in the lower half or so of my nulls.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Datisi

...Care to explain this vote?

[ben dover123]

VOTE: AFF we need wagons and Isis isn't one I'm joining.

have your reads changed in any way in the last ~18 hours and if so, how?

No, they have remained the same since then. Nothing has changed for me yet.

ok so can you talk to me about why you're voting aff now then? you said earlier he's "rather null" and that you wanna wait a bit until voting. the only +town thing you mentioned about isis was that the early attack was more likely to be bad town. is that still the case? is that the whole reason behind not wanting to join the isis wagon? bc i'm still struggling to follow your thought process here and if you're town i'd really like it if you could show me that?

This seems like a scumpost to me. The last line is level zero, extremely towny to post. Datisi knows it's extremely townie to post. But I don't think Datisi organically posted it. It reads like a plastic cake to me. like. this post has 6-7 different lines of inquiry trying to tease out of ben to "solve" him and it seems like overkill and the organic version of this post would focus either on the AaronFrost read or the Isis read.

like.
idk look at some of this diction

Hm I guess I see what you are trying to get at here? But then again these "level 0" and "level 1" thought processes are usually just Occam's Razor otherwise it's completely NAI. I think Datisi does incorporate the wagons cause he's talking about why I'm thinking these things specifically related at those 2 wagons. The thing that confuses me is how Datisi didn't get why I was voting AFF like I held off on voting when I did state that I would compromise on voting AFF before but maybe I worded it too vaguely.

Ok - why'd you move off of AFF (someone you decided was worthy of your vote) to someone who no one else decided was worthy of a vote and to whit you have not really explained why you think is worthy of a vote beyond a tonal read of one post?

Honestly this is a excellent question by the penguin and the timing of this is probably town indicative.

I'm voting Datisi pretty much just for that one post + maybe an internalized expectation that he would obvtown that set his par for course a bit rigged

wait whut. Specifically the end bit, isn't that just WIFOM in a nutshell? Like if your expectation for Datisi is to obvtown then if Datisi obvtowns doesn't that mean he is following the course as either alignment??

VOTE: penguin

Explain this vote please.

isis's posting is like, fine but, idk i kind of just want blood

it's mostly new and by blood i mean blood of the people who i currently have as bottom tier reads.

basically i just am too tired rn to give isis's posts the thought i should

Blood meaning as a hang or something else? I want to say something about this craving for blood in your bottom tier reads and why you think such but I think I'm missing context here.

gut says there's exactly one scum in Aaron/ben/Datisi

Out of those three, AFF is the only one I haven't been getting any townie vibes from. ben's recent posts have more or less made me reverse my read of him.

Any real explanation for this gut pool? Or is it just pure gut?

Also did sec/hyd just fall off the map or is that just me? I have little to no memory of any of their recent posts.

Yeah you aren't the only one who noticed this. No offense but their contributions seem...nonexistent almost? Besides that weird progression.

I expect to think "oh that post is pretty towny" for Datisi more than most players. I've only played with him one time that I wasn't scum and he was super super towny. I tend to like to grade people on a curve, because some people have a kind of townie baseline or scummy baseline.

I didn't really agree with townreading a bunch of his early play, you must be thinking of other players who have said that. I remember mentally noting that the towncase on dragon looks pretty much like how Datisi develops an early townread on dragon or pretends to do so, rathe indistinguishably (dragon is Iconeum)

I think the curve thing is a bit WIFOM imo. Like, if they are towny, then they are towny. That should be that.

Is there some kind of tell for Datisi developing early townreads? I don't think there is much wrong with what you described here.

Why does your gut say there’s scum in that group?

their interactions with each other don't seem to be w/w in any world but I'm having trouble believing that they're v/v/v fsr.

Ok. Just don't trouble yourself too heavily with pre-flip interactions. Usually that can cause some problems with the "X scum in this group".

[ben dover123]

I mean, it's less about whether you "can" or "can't" and more about how you ask what the reason is behind those votes, but nothing about that post reads to me as you being genuinely interested in understanding the three votes. Like, I don't think it's out of the question for town to have such a defensive reaction there (three votes in quick succession like that is cause for alarm, sure), but where that falls apart for me is that you're not casing yourself, you're not casing any of the three voters, and there's like... no attempt to actually discriminate between the three votes or determine possible motivations for them or anything like that. And it's not like any of that is mandatory or whatever, but the absence is felt. Some of the stuff that follows--like the tangent on phaselengths, or the explanation for your hesitation to read any of those votes--is maybe less glaring, but still kind of feels unnatural to me, almost like an afterthought.
That's p much where I was at.

Oh I see. Still, no I did case myself against the apparent attacks that were made against me. I can pull up quotes for that if you want.

cool.
VOTE: isis

what made you think so and who is scum then?

You don't feel like the Isis wagon is bad now?

also does anyone disagree with schiavetto town?

- hYdra

She put a lot of effort into her reads and I respect that. Not fully town for me but entering that nulltown area.

[ben dover123]

(also while we're at it, why *is* here there, ben?)

More because everyone else has had a townier moment than aff imo.

cool.
VOTE: isis

what made you think so and who is scum then?

I think her posting in the last few pages shows a very natural and logical though process (some examples are 617-624, 648, 652, 669, 672) that if it comes from scum, it's very well manufactured to look natural, but i genuinely feel like her posting has become more and more organic over time.

I also don't think the vanity vote on you is something that comes from scum when things have sort of stalled and and she could probably get away with staying on my wagon until end of day (which if she is scum would be her best chance of staying alive). It's just a weird move that doesn't make sense for scum!Isis to make in this situation.

Wow, this post is a mindmeld. This is a good post by AFF.

She put a lot of effort into her reads and I respect that. Not fully town for me but entering that nulltown area.

that's an "effort = town" kind of read?

Yeah, but I want to see where Shiavetto goes from his reads.

(also while we're at it, why *is* [aff] [in the lower half of your nulls], ben?)

@ben

also if there's ordering between your ~nulls, i'd like to see that too.

It's in my reads, let me pull a quote up.

I'm not sure about the Datisi wagon, my head is kinda a mess and I need to re-evaluate I think. Can't really read straight rn.

[ben dover123]

crap got caught up in a mess of other stuff in my life here i am
let me just read a bit

[ben dover123]

VOTE: ben dover i think this is e-2

i think this game is in need of a claim or a flip and doing something is better than doing nothing

I like implo's analysis enough to go with this and get a claim.

intent to NMhammer ben dover

I'm a plain tracker. Work with that while I'm still trying to sort my thoughts.

also fuck this game didn't go well. I tried not to be the N1 kill but that failed pretty horribly in retrospect. should have just tried to play my regular towngame.

[ben dover123]

let's flip ben anyway

-QB

what