Open 834: Trust Fall - Game Over

[Klick]

This playerlist is insane

Tammy, how do you think you'd be approaching the start of this right now if you were scum, that you're not doing now (if anything)?

[Klick]

I think ducky is obvtown

[Klick]

Also this is a tricky in another way

Do I wanna townread someone and exit with them or stay and catch scum

I'll be obvtown in like ~48 hours and would suggest we combine our powers and roast the scums

youre always obvtown even as scum
help me out here
whats your role

mmmmmm

[Klick]

i agree i'm pumping up the probability, but in lieu of better reads? i think it's really goofy that you two aren't

okay ducky we get it you're town!

[Klick]

I lean towards Tammy's argument against Wisdom-town being scum-motivated
And I didn't love the contrast between her answering my self-meta question with 'idunno', followed shortly by talking about how she'd already be proud if she were scum here

[Klick]

you guys are definitely being too hard on wisdom here
an 'easy pass'? cmon

*shrug*

Now do I think Wisdom, who I think could figure out how to get town reads without voting or death tunneling, would come out with something hokey like "how do I get town reads without voting?" as scum. Maybe not, even joking. But I don't trust that interpretation of mine either.

See, I read this and struggle to see how the Wisdom paranoia outweighs what looks like a fairly solid argument?

PEdit: Wisdom being town and being soft-confirmed would be bad for scum!Tammy

[Klick]

tammy's thought line of "i wouldn't be good here if scum" and "i'd already be impressed with myself if scum here" seems genuine so she's lean town i think

i don't think scum!tammy would think she did anything good yet

How do you match that with her answer to my question about what she'd be doing differently here if she were scum?

PEdit: the same reason any town being confirmed would be bad for any scum

[Klick]

On average, yeah? I think she's more likely to dislike the softclear as scum. Especially since she laid out the strongest argument for the softclear being accurate IMO.

Part of this could definitely be a playstyle clash between how I view the game and how she does. But I think she's more likely scum than average out of it.

[Klick]

Nope. I pretty much have a healthy dose of suspicion of everyone here right now.

imo you're being too paranoid. just because you've falsely cleared people for similar reasons in the past doesn't make them invalid.

Basically this?
Liking Infinity atm

[Klick]

i don't have too many thoughts yet. prism feels somewhat towny, the early townread on pooky was kinda serious, mafman pings me a little but i don't have anything concrete.

Talk to me about Prism!town?

[Klick]

The difference between this game and every other one you have played with me is vast, Infinity. Does this sound no alarm bells?

it doesn't seem that different to me tbh? it looks like you're trying to sort tammy, and not trying to take control of the gamestate, which is pretty towny

Lol never mind

[Klick]

So I skipped most of the rest of the thread from where I was when I last responded because it was more fun to read Wisdom/Pooky/MafMen deep-dive my intentions for thinking Tammy looked a bit scummy lol.

[Klick]

expending political capital to shade someone who's town is not exactly a winning strategy for a scumside player.

your goal is to get someone to trust you

not make sure nobody can trust anyone (cuz that's like literally impossible)

Scum doesn't just want to get trusted - they want to be trusted more than town
So scum!Tammy would be concerned about town'Wisdom getting soft-confirmed because that takes away from her potential pairings, since all the townies that might have wanted to pair with her would instead be appealing to Wisdom

I don't feel like this is stupid? But it seems that everyone has a consensus about this and I've not played the setup before admittedly

[Klick]

like is there even a person in the game that Klick can realistically believe would leave with Tammy rn or in the near future?

Your implication is that my motive for expressing a SL on Tammy was to avoid anyone leaving with her
I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion

[Klick]

I find myself agreeing with MafMen through most of this argument, while also finding him most likely to be scum out of him/Wisdom/Pooky

[Klick]

I think Tammy's >rand scum and wanted to express that because it was one of the few notable things I had to say up to that point

Right now I basically just intend to telegraph reads that feel significant enough to me while I get my head around the setup. I don't feel nearly as urgent as I usually do in Mafia games due to how the setup works, which I'm greatly appreciating since I seem to have less time than most of the playerlist so far

[Klick]

I said I thought Tammy looked scummy because I thought Tammy looked scummy

[Klick]

Tammy's >rand scum just because she questioned I was confirmed?

You can do much better than that

I've seen scum of various skill levels scramble to avoid an early consensus townread in the past
Theres a time that sticks out in my memory where Menalque did this as scum and I thought it was weird but didn't press it, and then he was scum and I was annoyed

[Klick]

I'm really struggling to see why.

[Klick]

mmmmmm

what was this

It felt like an indirect rebuttal to me calling ducky obvtown in 147

[Klick]

On average, yeah? I think she's more likely to dislike the softclear as scum. Especially since she laid out the strongest argument for the softclear being accurate IMO.

Part of this could definitely be a playstyle clash between how I view the game and how she does. But I think she's more likely scum than average out of it.

What argument did I lay out for the soft clear being accurate?

This was put in a way that made me even more confident that Wisdom was just town, even though it wasn't quite your point:

you guys are definitely being too hard on wisdom here
an 'easy pass'? cmon

*shrug*

Now do I think Wisdom, who I think could figure out how to get town reads without voting or death tunneling, would come out with something hokey like "how do I get town reads without voting?" as scum. Maybe not, even joking.

But I don't trust that interpretation of mine either.

But I respect his scum game too much to just write him off for not trusting when he could have. He could have either not trusted the rule would be in effect and didn't want to risk it or thought that doing it was too risky.

[Klick]

I lean towards Tammy's argument against Wisdom-town being scum-motivated
And I didn't love the contrast between her answering my self-meta question with 'idunno', followed shortly by talking about how she'd already be proud if she were scum here

?

They're not even the same thing though. I mean they're in the same ballpark, but this is like telling me that because I like the tanginess of an orange I have to like the tartness of a lemon ballpark. But they're two different things.

You asked me a counterfactual. How would I approach the game as scum. I'm not scum, so I didn't consider how I'd approach it. I gave you what generic things I did in the past when scum as what I might do. But I don't know. I took a long break from mafia and haven't played solo scum in four years, and the only time I did draw scum was last year in a hydra which is really different. I haven't had to consider how I would approach a game as scum in a long ass time, so I just do not know.

I do, however, believe that when I do finally draw scum it will be atrocious. I'm kind of terrified of what that will look like and how terribly I'll let down my team. Maybe it won't go as badly as I'm expecting it to, but me not knowing how I would approach a game as scum doesn't nullify me being able to look at how I am playing and thinking if I were scum here I'd be pretty happy at how it's turning out. Literally, if I am this active in a game when I draw scum, no matter what people think of my alignment, that will be a super win for me in my book.

So I really like this response, and I think I get where you're coming from now. This is more what I was looking for from my original question - something along the lines of 'I probably wouldn't be nearly this active because it'll have been my first scum game in years'. I think there was a miscommunication between what I was looking for from my original question and what you answered with - you thought I was looking for how you'd specifically be playing this as scum right now, but I mostly just wanted to know what made you town atm from your perspective and it's probably my bad for wording it poorly

This makes a lot of sense and is consistent, and I'm now feeling good about Tammy-town

[Klick]

you guys are definitely being too hard on wisdom here
an 'easy pass'? cmon

*shrug*

Now do I think Wisdom, who I think could figure out how to get town reads without voting or death tunneling, would come out with something hokey like "how do I get town reads without voting?" as scum. Maybe not, even joking. But I don't trust that interpretation of mine either.

See, I read this and struggle to see how the Wisdom paranoia outweighs what looks like a fairly solid argument?

PEdit: Wisdom being town and being soft-confirmed would be bad for scum!Tammy

I'm not paranoid of Wisdom though nor do I think it's a fairly solid argument. That's a small behavioral assessment that might not be right. I haven't played with Wisdom in like 5 years and I don't trust the reasoning on that type of read unless I have a really good understanding of someone and their behavior. And then even then it's flimsy. That's not a good reason for me to feel comfortable town reading someone. It might for you, and that's fine, but it's not for me.

The soft clears due to the trust thingy were poor and they were sketchy. I both do not want scum to be soft cleared for bad reasoning and don't trust people giving poor reasoning like that. I don't buy into the scum scrambling to keep someone from getting clear, and don't think I've ever done that as scum, but I do buy into scum clearing town for bad reasoning. So I'm going to question what looks like poor reasoning to get reads on people. I'll do this even if I think the person is town.

But I don't quite get your argument. You're saying that I'm trying to keep wisdom from getting clear because I'm scrambling scum who doesn't want him town read and I'm doing that by poking at a poor reason for him being town read and offering up instead a stronger reason for him to be townread? Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of me trying to keep people from town reading him?

Am I misunderstanding?

But, to be fair if I were scum, I would also be questioning that. Probably. Maybe. In theory definitely because I happen to think writing people off as town for reasoning like that is poor in general, so as scum I'd be able to push that avenue to look like I was scumhunting.

If this was something you were really concerned about though, why not extend it. I think I equally argued against other town reads. It feels like if this was a genuine avenue you'd point out the pattern with me questioning town reads to strengthen your argument but you stopped it with the wisdom thing.

I think the Wisdom soft-confirm is most likely valid and I'm comfortable calling Wisdom town off of it.

What you wrote about Wisdom in 218 strengthened my feelings there. I don't think that was your intention, regardless of alignment. Earlier, the impression that I got from 218 was that you were possibly trying to dismiss the reasons for townreading Wisdom prematurely in an effort to discredit them; just saying 'but I don't trust my judgment' felt very weak as a dismissal of what felt like good reasoning to me. Reading it now with more context, it feels consistent that you'd rather go off of more evidence than that.

[Klick]

I am thinking about two candidates which i plan to trust soon. Before that, i wish ask everyone. Who you would suggest for town deserved trust? Don't tell "No one" or something like that, just one or two names with explaination why they are considered townie for you. After that i reveal planned candidates (i think that's blatant choice from my perspective so you can as well quess) and maybe think about my life choices.

I'd be happy with any of Wisdom/ducky/Tammy atm.

[Klick]

So wait
MafMen what is your actual read on me?

[Klick]

I'm also missing how worst/Tammy wouldn't be clear here
What motive do they have for now just hammering immediately that outweighs the guarantee of getting through?
PEdit: lol fair

[Klick]

Does anyone other than worst actually have a read on Enchant?
I vaguely lean scum? I feel like Enchant!scum is more likely to feel the need to do what he did with the ducky vote than Enchant!town

[Klick]

Uhhh
I'm eagerly waiting for Prism to deliver on her promises of potential? So far everything she's given me feels trivially easy to fake
haha see what I did there am I cool now

[Klick]

Does anyone other than worst actually have a read on Enchant?
I vaguely lean scum? I feel like Enchant!scum is more likely to feel the need to do what he did with the ducky vote than Enchant!town

why's that?

I think Enchant!scum would read what was happening around the time of his play and feel pressure to *do something* to mess with the gamestate, as townreads were starting to form and he'd feel the walls closing in a bit. Whereas Enchant!town doesn't have as much of an obvious reason to shake things up.

[Klick]

And conftowning tw helps stop townreads from forming how?

Townreads were starting to form
They weren't forming on Enchant
Enchant!scum would start to feel pressure to do something to not be left out of trust pairings

I suppose it also implies that if Enchant is scum, it's likely to be with someone who isn't currently widely townread

[Klick]

hmm I think I found town!Enchant moderately chaotic in the last running of this game. He was also cleared via a townie in that game randomly trusting him (they did so because he's often misread as scum which was p lit) so like, I can absolutely see why he's predisposed towards trusts being pro-town.

Fair - I don't have any experience with Enchant as far as I can remember so I can see it being a playstyle thing that he'd choose to do as town.

How did it clear him though? I thought everyone decided that trusted people weren't clear (although I still don't really get why that is)

[Klick]

I'm so fucking sick of waking up to this shit.

[Klick]

My kid is going to their first day of nursery tomorrow
I don't have time to sift through most of this crap. It just feels gross when like most of it is just arguing about basically nothing important or relevant
This is why my reads tend to be based on a few really specific things instead of a body of work
It turns out bodies of work tend to include lots of garbage

[Klick]

Wow I really don't want to post in this game!

[Klick]

I have had an amount of alcohol I'm sorry if I get carried away

[Klick]

I am avoiding this thread 100% as a response to the way recent posting has gone, I have zero motivation to engage with this game and in fact think that doing so is going to put me in a pretty bad place. So instead of doing that, I'm... not, until I'm in a place where I'm more comfy engaging.

Pooky's probably town fwiw and I'm very against an F2 with me and Pooky