Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame
-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Hello hello old friends and new
VOTE: Roden
Didn't like his first post, I think using a past game to justify RVS vote is inherently a lil awkward
Also I like Galron for town"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Why did you unvote Enchant here, mc?
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
mc I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Do you also scumread my intro post for being somewhat rote?In post 75, Bingle wrote:
VOTE: GLIn post 73, GuiltyLion wrote:Why not vote me then?
Why am I voting you?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Does that make it any more townie or scummy in your eyes? The implication would be that it's scummy, but here you then go voting a player that hasn't posted yet instead of a player attracting votes. Not a very satisfying replyIn post 112, Roden wrote:Awkward post"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I wanted to hear mc explain in their own words because every other post of theirs has been really over-explainy and I'm trying to get a sense of their personalityIn post 116, T3 wrote:isn't that like... rvs and all?
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Makes me feel like Roden wanted to discredit my vote as non-confrontationally as possible"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Yes, right, and my point was you chose to use that singular vote on a player who hadn't posted yet rather than one who you just said was awkward, who was already drawing attention in the thread. This isn't a counterpoint?In post 128, Roden wrote:Because I only have one vote."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
being fair to Roden, I basically challenged him in my last post to go at me, so I'm not surprised to see him bite back. What I'd like to actually hear from him though is why he thinks my behavior is more likely to come from me as scum than me as town, because that's what's missingIn post 130, LicketyQuickety wrote:This is over aggro. Sort of feels fake."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also, what am I supposed to take from this? That you are always non-confrontational and it isn't AI? or are you saying that you actuallyIn post 128, Roden wrote:Ok, good to know we've never played before then.areconfrontational as town? because that would make you addressing my vote on you by calling me "awkward" while joke voting an empty slot even worse"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't like early game memeing, it's by and large just noise. Scumhunting at this stage for me is about poking at/pressuring people who look like they don't have a comfortable place to vote or people who aren't using their vote for any real purpose. Once people have posted and started doing stuff, voting somebody who hasn't posted at all yet is about the lowest information play possible.
If a townie thinks me being awkward makes me more likely to be scum, they should vote me, because that will actually generate useful content for them both in terms of how I respond and how other players interpret/react to the vote. Nobody has anything to say about a vote on a player who hasn't posted yet. So I don't like that you expressed a perfectly good reason to vote me at this stage ("awkward post") and instead put that vote on LQ, I think town should be more proactive pushing for reactions and content from players they find suspicious. Somebody who hasn't posted within a day of gamestart is not suspicious.
In post 135, Roden wrote:Where did I say this?
That's why literally my first question in 119 was whether you think "awkward post" is townie or scummy. I am not here for passive shade that's left up for interpretation by the reader. If you don't believe it's scummy in your heart of hearts, you probably shouldn't be suggesting that it could be. And if you do believe it might be scummy, then you should leverage that to pressure me. [That's why I asked Auro why he wasn't voting me as well!]In post 135, Roden wrote:It's RVS, nothing I say right now has any actual meaning beyond seeing reactions. If anything, it's weirdly self-conscious of you to assume awkward = scummy.
This weaseling of "I didn't say it was scummy!" doesn't at all address the main issue I'm trying to force here - if anything it's just exacerbating it - which is that you felt a need to respond to my vote but didn't use your response to either sort me or push me, and that's low-info play that has so far just reinforced my early bad gutfeels about you"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
DArby can I get an answer from you on your own question? happy to wait until Pav responds if you're trying to get his take firstIn post 137, DArby wrote:
Do you read it as TvS?In post 136, Pavowski wrote:
Nah, you and GL have moved right on out of RVS with this little kerfuffleIn post 135, Roden wrote:It's RVS, nothing I say right now has any actual meaning beyond seeing reactions"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Who do you think I should be paying attention to? I don't believeIn post 146, Roden wrote:This is an even weirder excuse to attack me when we have people voting the IC. Why are you ignoring them?everyonethat does low-info useless meme shit is scum, I try to have a discerning eye. If I've missed a good candidate for suspicion, help me out. Otherwise this seems like you're just trying to deflect my attention on you onto the first place elsewhere that you can.
Do you think scum or town or more likely to "overreact to something that wasn't deep"? Again, as I said in 133, I'm curious why you think scum!me would play like this yet town me would not.In post 146, Roden wrote:You literally only sound scummy now because you're largely overreacting to something that wasn't that deep.
uhhh... pretty sure the only content that has been generated by it was directly because of me grilling you about it, so you don't get the credit for that! sorry, nice tryIn post 146, Roden wrote:You say I didn't have a good reason to vote LQ and that doing so doesn't cause reactions and generate content. This is blatantly untrue though since it very much has."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
the thing that's difficult with multi ball is that scum can authentically scumhunt for the other faction, so even if people aren't S-S aligned, they could be S-S unaligned. Not that that's the case here cause I'm town, but it's going to be hard to make definitive T/S reads on D1In post 152, DArby wrote: At the very least I don’t think it’s scum theater. It’s too soon to say otherwise."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
what do you remember from town!him?In post 145, T3 wrote: LQ is feeling WILDLY different than I remember from town him
I've got a decent amount of experience with town!LQ but not a lot that I can remember of scum!LQ"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
it's all good, I thiiiink that I think scum here is less likely to speculate about T/S in the way that you did so you get a pass into the D1 townclub, huzzah!In post 159, DArby wrote:
Oh. Hm. Obvious but i didn’t think of that.In post 155, GuiltyLion wrote:
the thing that's difficult with multi ball is that scum can authentically scumhunt for the other faction, so even if people aren't S-S aligned, they could be S-S unaligned. Not that that's the case here cause I'm town, but it's going to be hard to make definitive T/S reads on D1In post 152, DArby wrote: At the very least I don’t think it’s scum theater. It’s too soon to say otherwise.
Is it clear this is my first multi ball yet?
At the very least I don’t think they’re on the same team."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
aaah this actually makes those T3 posts make a lot more sense.In post 178, DArby wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised if T3 mixed GL and LQ.In post 175, mc esther wrote: im pretty sure t3 is talking about guiltylion, seeing as that's who he quoted and that's where his vote is.
I'm definitely playing more aggro so far than I did in Situation Room (my only game I had with T3 I think), so I can buy town!T3 making that read. Situation Room was a completely different situation tho, initial one being that I was overgamed at the start of Situation Room so D1 I had to sit back for a lot of the early part of it"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Roden, I'll give you an honest, non-confrontational reach out on this pointIn post 191, Roden wrote:Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.
Can you explain why you think your opening posts are town enough that we should already conclude that this isn't your scum game? Wouldn't that be a tremendous insult to your scum game, if your town game is so apparent in contrast to it that you claim it takes just a couple opening posts to rule out the possibility of you being scum?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
oh wait I guess I should actually do a full read through before catching up, so T3 didn't mix us up?In post 201, T3 wrote:town lq
sorts people, actively scumhunts, makes walls
scum lq
just says his reads on people, one liners
VOTE: lq
thank you for coming to my ted talk
this is a pretty shallow meta read, not convinced"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
not anything especially specific/strong beyond my general "not using your vote with purpose is antitown" standard, but I do wish you'd start using it!In post 226, Auro wrote:Did you read anything off my lack of vote?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
my one main salient takeaway from the LQ/Roden bit is that both are making dubious claims on one particular front
Roden in 205 asks LQ if LQ thinks Roden "purposefully puts himself in this situation as scum". Again I think Roden is questionably taking credit for something that I feel I'm responsible for (early wagon/pressure on Roden). The logic of "why would I get wagoned as scum" isn't easy to understand from either a town/scum perspective, it's not clear what Roden specifically thinks that he did to get himself wagoned and whether that was intentional. However I have seen both alignments make the "I wouldn't be wagoned if I were scum here" claim, it's not something I feel comfortable reasoning about as AI but I certainly don't townread it, at best it's WIFOMy.
However, Roden has a point in 209 that LQ agreeing that scum!Roden might indeed intentionally "put himself in this situation" is also a bad take. Scum do not love early scrutiny, in almost any circumstance. I don't see LQ's logic in implying that this COULD be a scum plan - again, how and where did Roden even intentionally invite pressure on himself? Whatever Roden's alignment is, I'm sure he'd rather not be voted and rather not have to argue with people voting him.
I can see what LQ is saying in that LQ just kinda went along with an idea (being intentionally wagoned) that Roden put out there, but it's just such bad reasoning on both sides ("if I were scum, I wouldn't be wagoned") ("no, if you were scum, this might be your plan!!") that I'm having a hard time parsing why either player is taking any of the logic seriously."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I think if I try to get into LQ's brain I can see where he's coming from overall, so I prefer staying on Roden here. But I would like Roden's answer to my 285 because I think the claim of "this should obviously be seen as not my scum game" is the real heart of everything that followed after that ("if I were scum, I wouldn't be getting pressured" being the subsequent claim)"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I'm not really following this post at allIn post 370, Bingle wrote:Hm. Still don’t like GL’s entry. Also firmly disagree with P2, and don’t think GL believes it either. Early scrutiny is great for above average scum because it’s not likely to actually go places and it helps explain why you’re not dead in the late game. Also, classic “that’s town because it mirrors NAI/scummy thing I’m doing” here.
1) Do you think Roden is "above average scum"? If so, what is that based on? He has already claimed in the thread that this should be obviously seen as his town game - which I already pointed out means his scum game must be really bad if he honestly believes that.
2) I also just don't agree with you on "early scrutiny being great for scum". There's a vig in the setup and another scum faction who won't care if you're limmed or not. when I'm scum I always feel better when I'm coasting than when I feel like I'm expected to post and answer for the questionable shit in my ISO
3) I don't understand the last sentence at all, I don't know if it's a miscommunication or you not understanding my post. Where do you think I'm calling anyone town in that post? Did you misunderstand my point about how I don't buy Roden claiming to "put himself into this situation" - because the "situation" is literally just me and LQ grilling him for a bad early game"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 356, Galron wrote:
Why the TR so early?In post 62, GuiltyLion wrote:Hello hello old friends and new
VOTE: Roden
Didn't like his first post, I think using a past game to justify RVS vote is inherently a lil awkward
Also I like Galron for town~ vibes ~. Unfortunately I can't really comply with the request to throw meta out. But I thought your early game questions in 48 and 54 struck me as someone looking to substantively push the game forward with genuine/fair intent to sort mc esther, who was also a confusing slot for me as well
speaking of mc esther I like their latest posts a lot more and I vibe with their push on Salsa so I'm coming around to a townread on her as well"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
ah okay, I see what you're saying. You're wrong with your conclusion but I see the thought process.In post 379, Bingle wrote:The premise of “scum don’t want early scrutiny” when you’re actively making yourself a central pillar of thread activity reads as a kind of incepted lamist.
I think LAMIST tells work best when the LAMIST activity in question is something that the person is ~only~ doing because they are scum and they think it looks town (so, making posts/arguments that don't come from them as town because they don't think of it at all). You're probably right in picking up a "GL thinks making himself a pillar of thread activity is townie" vibe from my posting/arguments but that's because I authentically think that's what good townplay is supposed to be, and I think that as either alignment.
Probably the disconnect on the other point is I don't think I was "shitpushing" Roden, I came at him with an early game hunch that occasionally points to scum (using a past game as a justification for your RVS vote) and then he responded poorly by discrediting me while also ignoring me, which prompted me to keep pressuring him. That's just real pushing, not shitpushing."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I'm satisfied that I understand where your suspicions are coming from now, but I promise you will see that townfire once I have reads I feel it's worth bringing the heat forIn post 391, Bingle wrote:Where is the GL townfire? Where is the grabbing the thread by the horns? Where is the three page analysis of whether Bingle actually says he hammer his partner for the loss that you freak out about two pages later and completely drop?
is "preliminary push looking to gauge reactions" what you meant by "shitpush"? I thought it meant more along the lines of pushing someone for bad or easily refutable reasons. I don't think I subscribe to this dichotomy in this question - I want more reads/participation from everybody and to feel better about my overall reads and limpool before championing a lim on anyone, but I do think my points against Roden and his defensive responses were valid for early game pressure and I have not yet felt town vibes from anything he's posted.In post 391, Bingle wrote:Y/N this is an angle of investigation you actively believe results in a roden lim and not a preliminary push looking to gauge reactions."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
DArbyIn post 393, Almost50 wrote:I; King of thread and ruler of both Town & Mafia alike; have decided in all my mighty grace to request order all of my subjects and minions to each provide a 3-players list of their top TRs (NOT including self).
Galron
Pav
^ these three feel the most pure / agendaless to me
LQ and Mc Esther get honorary mentions in that I definitely feel mindmeld with a lot of their takes and don't doubt the sincerity in most of what they've posted, however, with these two more than the three above TRs I could imagine them being scum tapping into authentic reasoning to scumhunt for the other faction. I can't really explain/distinguish between that and town, and I don't want to lim them today, it's just a vibe thing in conjunction with me being cognizant that there's 4 scum and I'm probably townreading scum when I shouldn't somewhere.
Bingle and Auro in a "I guess I like what they've posted overall so far but it's not unfakeable" tier
everyone else (Roden/T3/Enchant/Salsa) I haven't felt any townpings from yet and I'm pretty content with dueling Roden/Salsa wagons as those two have actively pinged me as disingenuous moreso than T3/Enchant"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I understand that it's not the most transparent/understandable read, and I wish I could explain the read better but I currently cannot. It's largely a vibe thing and I'm certainly open to re-evaluating as the game continues - if the motivation for this question is that you think Galron is scummy then I'd encourage you to lay out your thoughts - but right now I think he's townIn post 432, Auro wrote:Walk me through your Galron read, I can't see it? Like sure, some of his questions are "pro-town", but what makes them likelier to come from town!Galron?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 445, Salsabil Faria wrote:In post 440, Pavowski wrote: A NK'd GL would be another story.What do you mean by that?
I am not a fan of either of these questions, I thought Pav's reasoning was pretty clear.In post 453, Auro wrote:
If you townread GL and acknowledge he's pro-town, why on earth would you flip him to determine Bingle's alignment instead of flipping Bingle directly?In post 440, Pavowski wrote:I would also go as far as to say that if we should flip GL, and he turns town, that would be scum indicative on Bingle given the recent shade. But I also kinda don't think GL is likely to get flipped. A NK'd GL would be another story.
Signalling to the other scumteam, aren't ya"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
sure, but it feels like you're trying to drag Pav into a debate about claims that he didn't make or arguments that aren't important. From my impression of his original 440, all Pav was saying was that if he were toIn post 468, Salsabil Faria wrote:If I don’t understand something, I'll ask.knowthat I am town, he would then think that Bingle's shade on me might indicate Bingle scum. However, as soon as you say something like that it can poison the well for NKA (a non-Bingle scum team might shoot me in an attempt to make Bingle look bad), so he wanted to clarify that he doesn't also think me being NK'd wouldfurthermake him suspect Bingle. This is also basically exactly what he then clarified in 457 and 462.
You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful. No one has been killed yet, it doesn't develop nor change my understanding of his original posts, and it isn't something that Pav would have different reasoning about whether he's town or scum. Hence, I don't understand how the line of questioning actually helps you sort Pav, it feels like busywork at best and at worst potentially trying to stir up "issues" with Pav that you can then use to push him."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
also to clarify further, my issue with Auro's question is slightly different than my issue with Salsa's - Auro is wise enough to not too obviously stir the pot for the sake of pot-stirring, and he has since backtracked slightly in 460, but I think his question indicates he wasn't paying full attention or trying to understand Pav's posts with a charitable eye. That makes me think it could be a scum mindset of more actively looking to interrogate posts rather than evaluate and understand them. I know when I am scum I am more likely to jump at my own misreadings of posts like that."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
maybe I'm missing the obvious, but I really don't see this original post as signaling. It was Salsa's repeated questioning on why Pav said this that prompted all further NK analysis and discussion. All I see in this post is just a caveat that if I (GL) were to die at night, Pav's logic wouldn't apply. Possibly some of the confusion is over Pav using the word "flip" to mean "eliminate via town vote majority"In post 440, Pavowski wrote:I would also go as far as to say that if we should flip GL, and he turns town, that would be scum indicative on Bingle given the recent shade. But I also kinda don't think GL is likely to get flipped. A NK'd GL would be another story."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I think I'm not really understanding what the "redundancy" is or the "gotcha"In post 471, Auro wrote:And the redundancy of Pavlov's statements formed a major part of my *gotcha* which holds even discounting my misread."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
He brought it up the second time because Salsa asked him why he brought it up and he was trying to clarify his original post. How is that "redundant" when he was literally asked to explain??In post 503, Auro wrote:@GL: This is the redundancy I was referring to. Like why bring up the GL NK?
I'm a little concerned you didn't see this.
I'm VERY concerned you don't see that"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lolIn post 506, LicketyQuickety wrote:GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?
I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Uhhhh... I don't see how you get that from any of my Auro takes. I didn't like his attempt to gotcha Pav over easily understandable posts. None of what I've had to say has had anything to do with paranoiaIn post 508, Bingle wrote:I really dislike GLs auro takes, btw. It reads like gl is calling auro scummy for being paranoid,"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Oh and on this - I can be aggressive, but not always, it depends on how strongly I feel about the read. I don't scumread Bingle for scumreading me because last time we were both town he scumread me for similar reasons and I can understand why he thinks I've been a lil lamisty, I get that a lotIn post 506, LicketyQuickety wrote:Are you ever aggressive in games? And if not, why are you not SRing the person who said this?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't think I've been especially flowery? Like where do you see me doing that, specifically? I went in hard on Roden, he bailed, and Salsa has had enough attention that I haven't needed to push it myself. I'm satisfied with the gamestate currently, I don't need to do anything at the moment other than poke at peripheral slots like AuroIn post 513, LicketyQuickety wrote:P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I disagree with your assessment of both those posts, but I appreciate you referencing them. The first one in particular is definitely not a pass, I'm explicitly challenging him to explain why he thinks my play comes from me as scum"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I dunno what there is to explain, and I feel like you're just pushing on me because you're bored of the main suspects or trying to make sure you have a good grip on the gamestate or something. I disagree with you that I've been flowery or tentative with my SRs, but I don't really want to fight with you about it"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
My SRs are Roden, Salsa, Auro, and I haven't really explained myself to them at all? I don't scumread Bingle, I try to explain myself to him when I think it might make him reevaluate but overall I don't know where you even see me "explaining myself" to SRs"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
How is it "redundant" to say "if we limmed GL and he flipped town, I'd suspect Bingle, but if GL is NKed I wouldn't necessarily suspect him""I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
EBWOP - Or rather *"hold that against him as well" instead of "suspect""I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't disagree that bringing up the case where I am NK'd adds nothing to the thread but WIFOM, the thing is that I can entirely imagine a town!Pav posting it for his own completeness sake, and to me that explanation feels far more likely/intuitive than it being some sort of cross-team signal.In post 523, Auro wrote:Like talking about the likelihood of you flipping, and then bringing up the case where you're NK'd adds nothing to the thread - the only purpose it could have served was some form of cross-team signalling. And note that I'm not referring to his further explanation of it.
It's obvious things wouldn't necessarily be the same if GL was NK'd, no? How often do we see townposts of the form "hmm, if somehow X slot were to be night killed, hmm hmm hmm, then my opinion could change..." (I know this might be an uncharitable twisting of what he was trying to convey, but this is how it comes off to me as possible signalling).
You're right it's obvious that things wouldn't be the same if I were NK'd, but a lot of people love to say or post obvious things, I don't see this particular instance as scummy at all or worth pressing on. I feel like I see townposts of that form frequently, especially in the Newbie queue (not calling Pav a newbie, just saying it's really not a rare thing to see someone post).
The last bit about uncharitable twisting - you are right, it is uncharitable twisting! don't uncharitably twist!!! That's one of the main patterns I look for to indicate scum mindset - I'm a little thrown that you're just openly acknowledging it.
I think we agree on:
1. The original NK comment in 440 was a kinda useless WIFOMy thing to post
2. Pav would have left it at that if it weren't for Salsa pressing him to keep explaining the original comment repeatedly
Where we disagree:
3. I don't think scum is more likely to post that type of speculation than town
4. I don't see it as a possible signal, I think that's a big ole reach
I do appreciate you clarifying the dropped "if" as how you misread, that makes your gotcha attempt make more sense to me. I still think it's kinda bad to rush to post a gotcha question instead of like, rereading the post to make sure you understood Pav's post correctly, because if he HAD posted that it'd be pretty transparently bizarre reasoning, but I do understand your misinterpretation better now."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
This is actually an interesting question, my mind started racing in a bunch of directions as soon as I started trying to think about how I feel about it, it might be a good general mafia discussion topic tbh but I'll try to keep my thoughts concise and grounded in this particular gameIn post 531, Auro wrote:@GL: Do you agree with Esther's assessment: that summarizing and interpreting those pages of arguments hurts scum more than any towncred it may offer?
1) In the general sense, I think it's fairly difficult "work" to try to closely read through two players caught in a mudslinging slapfight and tease out what the underlying claims/reasoning are. In a more traditional single Mafia faction vs Town setup, I think town has a lot more incentive to do that work and try to draw Actual Reads out of those pages of arguments because they're the ones with a need to sort alignments of players involved. Scum knowing alignments already don't gain anything personally from that mental load. So from a bird's eye view, I see where mc esther is coming from, scum can usually just not post anything when there's a big fight in the thread and it's rare that they get scumread for it. I definitely see how someone diving in andtryingto draw a signal from the noise gets townpoints accordingly on that basis.
2) That being said, I would say in this specific set up that the existence of multiple scum factions actually creates a real incentive for scum to also do that work, because scum in this set up should still be trying to figure out who the other scum faction are and eliminate them. So big caveat to point #1 there off the bat
3) Where I disagree slightly is that a scum's ideal gamestate is "low information" and so any generating of "information" inherently hurts scum. I think the ideal scum gamestate is one where scum have enough influence to secure the specific eliminations THEY want without drawing too much suspicion for it. Sitting back and hoping town eats itself alive can sometimes work in the right game/playerlist, but it's playing with fire because it's also fully possible that town will recognize each other and townblock effectively and POE you out rather quickly if you're not contributing. So I think if I were scum, there are a lot of ways where I could use a Roden vs LQ fight to my advantage, the classic one being that I could try to make one side look worse and make myself look good from it at the same time. If I have enough WIM to overcome the "mental load" of point 1, this would be a good play for scum!me. And the sneakiest/best play of all would be to subtly make both sides look bad in everyone else's eyes, so that I could hope town chains two lims that I might want back to back.
4) All that being said, I think it then comes down to looking at the conclusions/posts that I specifically made, and looking for any agenda or ~ uncharitable twisting ~, as it were. Was I fair in my assessment of LQ and Roden's posts? Did I try to leverage something NAI to give myself a reason to scumread one of the players involved? Is my summary more or less likely to lead to LQ/Roden being limmed, and ifmore likely, are my suspicions valid? If mc esther thinks I was fair, and not trying to embellish or throw dirt on a clean slot, then it makes point #1 stronger town!evidence than it would be if I came out of my summary championing a lim for dubious reasoning. There's also flip side questions of - were my posts actually meaningful? Is it solely a lot of summary without any indication of actual attempts to sort either player?
I can't really answer the questions in #4, that's for everyone else to discuss. Personally I was hoping teasing out the poor/obfuscated reasoning surrounding the "did Roden invite a wagon on himself" and "if so, why would scum!Roden invite a wagon on himself" would lead to Roden specifically explaining why he said he was obvious town or why he thinks he doesn't get wagoned as scum.
I did walk away from that with a feeling that LQ was being sincere in what he was posting, though I've also since noted (429) that this being multiball makes it hard to fully townread LQ for it, as scum!LQ might genuinely believe that Roden is also scum of a different flavor."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
it's probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it seems pretty easy to me to understand why he went there?In post 573, Galron wrote:I don't think in this instance that it's an uncharitable reading of what Pav said. We're in multi-ball, and it seems to me to be good play to coordinate night kills if possible. If you look at 440, the second and third sentences are unnecessary to the point the Pav was making, and the more I look at them the more I think, why did he even go there?
In post 440, Pavowski wrote:I would also go as far as to say that if we should flip GL, and he turns town, that would be scum indicative on Bingle given the recent shade. But I also kinda don't think GL is likely to get flipped. A NK'd GL would be another story.
1. "If I knew GL was town, I'd think this Bingle suspicion of him looks bad"
2. "The only way we can know GL is town is if we lim him or if he's NK'd"
3. "I don't want to lim GL"
4. "Oh, but if GL is NK'd, that probably wouldn't be additional evidence for scum!Bingle"
Like, that flow of reasoning just feels extremely straightforward to me. I agree that it's not like, the deepest or most insightful or most important train of thought, but it's a train with a well illuminated and clear railroad.
When I ask myself how that post amounts to signaling, why scum!Pav would signal at all to begin with, and then why scum!Pav would signal about killing GL, for me it's a lot less clear."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
thinking that it's signaling feels to me like assuming Pav's alignment/motivations first and analyzing his post second. Like if I start from Pav being scum, could that be a signal? Maybe. Do I look at his post and think it's such clear signaling that it makes Pav more likely to be scum? No."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
yeh, fair enough. I think I've said as much as I can or want to about the whole thing"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I did want to touch on this / DArby's Salsa townread in general, to add that I'm also not convinced. I think I can feel where DArby's coming from in that Salsa's read/reaction to LQ feels genuine, and certainly that feeling is amplified when DArby is also suspicious of LQ, but again I'd like to point out that this is multi ball and so Salsa mightIn post 546, mc esther wrote:when you talk about salsa's developing reads, im assuming youre largely talking about her lickety read. ill think on it, but it's not that convincing to me right this moment; and im really not sure it can outweigh the way she responded to me and t3 pressuring her, or her weird relationship to the roden wagon.genuinelythink the likes of T3 or LQ are scum opportunistically hopping on her wagon while still being scum herself.
The thing for me that's missing with Salsa is I feel her questioning has been mostly meant to make people look bad rather than help her sort their alignment, and I have vibes of survivalism from how she hopped onto Roden in 417 or making posts like 550 and 554. She's not appealing to A50 at all to sell him on her reads when he's literally conftown voting her. and 554 is just a bad post in general - so she thinks there could be all 4 scum in {T3, mc esther, Pavowski, Bingle, Galron}? Why is she still voting LQ then? Who of those 5 does she think is town? I can't see a genuine town thought process behind posts like that."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Do you think Salsa actually believes Galron is scum? She hasn't substantively mentioned him at all before or since and I don't get that vibe from her post. Feels more like either a joke or some kind of bizarre last minute effort to make Galron look bad, and neither is a good look in my bookIn post 583, Auro wrote:It feels perfectly reasonable to accuse an unannounced E-1 vote as scummy when you're potentially about to be hammered though?
Salsa's last posts felt the opposite of survivalistic. Wouldn't appealing to A50, or trying to aggressively shift a wagon onto one of her voters be survivalistic? Should town be survivalistic or not?
Shotgun accusing everyone voting you of being scum without naming specific players is definitely survivalistic, it's trying to make everyone in thread feel wrong for voting you without actually giving any real reads in the game. Could even be a specific attempt to antispew, if I'm putting my tinfoil hat on.
What I mean by "appealing to A50" is this. Let's say Salsa is town. What I would expect town to be doing is trying to understand why A50 is voting her, and also trying to sell their main scumreads in the thread so that even if they are limmed, they leave behind a legacy of where they stood for players to follow. Notably A50 especially as he has a public cop check. Instead, she's not trying to shape the game in any direction. What is her motive for posting then?
I think town should try not to get limmed, but even more than that they should be trying to push for the elimination of who they think is scum. Latter most important, even if it requires being limmed yourself to hope to achieve on later days. When I say someone is being "survivalistic", what I mean to communicate is it seems they care more about surviving than actually pushing their own particular reads. That's scum-mindset, not town. Simply wanting to live at all is NAI, but there should be a component of advocating for your own reads at the same time as well. Otherwise what are you doing here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
No thoughts on literally anything else?
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
:/ I don't like hammering there before Bingle gets to say his stuff"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I think maybe this is why we haven't seen eye to eye on stuff. I think you can be firm with pressure without making assumptions that someone is scum. I try (though don't always succeed) to maintain the mindset that most players are likely town until there's good evidence otherwise, just based on probability/Bayesian reasoningIn post 612, Bingle wrote:GL is pushing the idea that auro being aggressive and assuming that someone is scum until proven otherwise is scummy, when I think that's actually just a good way to make the pressure worth something."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
yeah, definitely. I think probably my activity doesn't feel up to standard because my main suspect flaked out of the game and I was also fine with the counterwagon (in part due to multi ball). if I'm alive the picture will definitely be shaken up on D2 so I'll prob have more to ~ do ~In post 627, Bingle wrote:GL, can I get a tl;dr with only conclusions you've drawn from your analysis at your earliest convenience if you live through the night?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
In post 638, Pavowski wrote:So either everyone targeted A50 or only Team Fire did, right?and somebody else got doc's and frozen
Seems more likely monkey got tripled upIn post 649, Not_Mafia wrote:In post 647, Bingle wrote:I don't think this can have a drawback for asking publicly given how obvious a question it is, so:
@mod: Are death flavors indicative of who made the kill? If they are, what are the specific flavors for a Fire Kill, an Ice Kill, a Doc Kill, and an all three kill?
NM should be able (have to actually) answer that because this is an open.Yes death flavours are indicative. Ice Mafia isFrozen, Fire Mafia isIncineratedand a CPR Doc kill isShocked. If all three were to target a player, the fire and ice mafia kills would cancel out and the CPR Doc would kill the player. I will add this to the rules section.
Pav - how did you know the Ice Team's flavor was "frozen" specifically? I don't recall seeing that anywhere prior to N_M editing the posts."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Bingle, why are you less suspicious of me here than you were yesterday?In post 654, Bingle wrote:Not particularly interested in GL/Auro atm.
I'll post a full reads update for ya in a sec - I'm feeling a little scatterbrained right now since I need a full reset in light of Salsa/Roden town. I'm definitely thinking my reasons for townreading Pav might have been Bad."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
Dude, my problems were always far more with your 112 than your 14. A RVS tell isn't going to work a lot of the time, but I thought I made it clear what I really disliked was how you tried to dismiss me without actually engaging with me. And I think the Cop check was probably more because you went MIA for most of the day rather than me pressuring you at the beginning.In post 659, Roden wrote:Btw GL, now you know my RVS vote really was just RVS. It really shouldn't have taken a Cop check to figure that out, here we are I guess."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
-
GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13829
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
I don't think I agree with this anymore. I didn't like people suggesting Pav's D1 posting was an attempt to signal, I thought it clearly wasn't, but I do think his opening D2 post is really bad, I'm wondering if he straight up scum slipped by revealing knowledge of the "frozen" flavoring for Ice Team kill. I don't think the suspicion on Pav D1 was potent enough to make him feel threatened (he didn't pick up a lot of votes/wagon pressure), and if his scum!persona is to act oblivious/dump-thoughts-in-thread then his D2 play is entirely consistent with that.In post 674, mc esther wrote:i think basically everyone's established this, but to be explicit so that nobody suggests anything daft later (and also to get auro's thoughts): pavowski's town. there was literally no reason for him to signal for a kill on guiltylion, guiltylion was townreading him all day; and the observation that scum would be too paranoid to make that sort of comment if not as an intentional signal rings pretty true. while start-of-day speculation on the night targets was a pretty bad idea, i think it makes a lot more sense from "townie with weird hang-ups about night" than "scum who went straight for the same speculation that had him under suspicion day one".
I'm not sure he's who I'd most want limmed today but I absolutely feel worse about him now than I did yesterday"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"