Open 174- Lovers Mafia (Over!)

[ZazieR]

Vote: Zazier

Let's lynch him before he can spam up the thread.

Too late!
But why? Doesn't it cheer you up ?

[ZazieR]

Before he can hoodwink us with his Dutch charm.

No reason to
(And I don't think I ever use it to my advantage )

[ZazieR]

If he does hoodwink us with his Dutch charm, I will point to these posts during postgame and say "I told you so" in a really obnoxious fashion.

Better lynch him and spare yourself the risk of that happening.

Won't happen.

[ZazieR]

Well, I'm noticing a nice starting bandwagon on David and ZazieR.

2 and 2? Fail.

FoS: sanjay, zwets, david, dramonic.

Wait...nvm. Why the random bandwagons though?

How serious is this post?

[ZazieR]

I'm not going to give you ideas XP

Also, do you think your casting suspicion at everyone was reasonable?

Nope. Not at all. However, the random bandwagons frighten me.

Why?

[ZazieR]

pfeh, L-2 and you're scared?

Unvote
Vote: 12K

feeling better now?

Thank you ever so much [/sarcasm]

1 vote doesn't scare me. Yet

Why this comment? (Not the sarcasm part. The bit below it)

[ZazieR]

I don't think I have ever had cause to take a FoS less seriously.

Random FoS stage > Random Voting Stage.

Do you actually mean this, or is this the Random Opinion Stage too?

It is all 3. At once.

Really, no I don't mean it. But I prefer FoSes to Voting.

Why?

[ZazieR]

If you would kindly tell us how many votes it does take to scare you, 12KeyBlade, I'm sure the other players would be happy to oblige.

Unvote

Vote: 12KeyBlade

How serious was this vote?

[ZazieR]

You can find less useless ways to increase your ppd count Sanjay.

Still waiting on Zazie to chime in or something.

It's hard to post when you're at camp where there is no internet ._.
But I'm here now ^.^

[ZazieR]

wow that's a major wagon on 12. Already L-1. Let's reel it back in before we have a lynch on the second page of a game.

Do you think a lynch will happen this fast? If so, why?

[ZazieR]

Fair enough. I probably wouldn't have voted for ZazieR if IMkingdavid hadn't done it first.

I'm just a real sucker for peer pressure, you know?

So why go for double L-2, instead of a L-1?

[ZazieR]

Fair enough. I probably wouldn't have voted for ZazieR if IMkingdavid hadn't done it first.

I'm just a real sucker for peer pressure, you know?

Bandwagonning is scummy in my book.

*bandwagons Sanjay*

vote: Sanjay

So why Sanjay, while it was Zwet who put 12KB at L-1?

[ZazieR]

I have officially caught at least one scum in Sanjay, zwet and dramonic. Most likely Sanjay.

Why?

[ZazieR]

theorically if you've caught one scum you've got the other by suicide reaction.

Ah, excellent point! I had forgotten about the lovers.

How?

[ZazieR]

How do you figure we have up to four days to hit scum?

Actually, I forgot that if one scum dies, both die. So that means... we have less. half of that, in fact.

scenario:

day 1:

6 alive, 4 to lynch (2 scum, 4 townies). lynch townie.

day 2:

5 alive, 3 to lynch (2 scum, 3 townies). lynch townie.

day 3:

4 alive, 3 to lynch (2 scum, 2 townies). game over; no way to get a majority now, since no scum is stupid enough to vote for themselves or their buddy.

scenario 2:
we lynch scum on either day 1 or 2; game over-town win.

So unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible, given my current awake-ness), we have day 1 and day 2 to catch scum before we're screwed.

You knew that there were two scum and that the game is night-less, but you didn't know about the lovers?

[ZazieR]

Don't worry, I'm town.

claiming already? there are 0 votes on you and dram merely voices slight suspicion ("mixed feelings") of you, and you feel the need to claim... on page two? eh...

Is this scummy? And if so, why?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Vote Sanjay

.

[ZazieR]

Another L-1. See how funny you people are?

You didn't know that I like L-1's yet?

[ZazieR]

zaz... is there really a need to post that many consecutive posts? why not just post 1 longer post? saves space.

I have my reason.

Anyway...

You knew that there were two scum and that the game is night-less, but you didn't know about the lovers?

I have already explained this.

Yes, you stated you were only used to newbie games. Doesn't explain the nightless bit.

Is this scummy? And if so, why?

It's just unnecessary. And only scum would need to be so adamant about claiming town, especially this early in. Besides... I don't see the point of claiming in this particular game in any case; you're either townie or scum, and scum isn't going to claim scum.

So if you think scum would be so adamant about it, then it's scummy, not?

[ZazieR]

Another L-1. See how funny you people are?

You didn't know that I like L-1's yet?

what?

In Lover games, L-1 will lead to victory. (Unless you play with OP in one ._.)
Just like this time.

[ZazieR]

I didnt

I <3 bandwagons in small games ^.^
And my favorite is a L-1 wagon in a Lovers game or in Vengeful. Moreso in Lovers though.

[ZazieR]

Somehow it didn't all come together in my head when I was posting. My bad. After it was pointed out by... someone (can't remember and the post is no longer shown in the thread review thanks to the string of 16+ posts you made earlier), I corrected my mistake and we moved on. So drop it. If you want to string 12KB and I together as a scum team with the fact that both of us at some point happened to forget the suicide bit as your sole reasoning, go for it, but I sure hope you look for some actual evidence before pushing a wagon on it. Like I said before, we only have up to 2 days to get it right with the setup. We don't have room for mistakes.

Please explain why you brought up a 12KB/David scumteam, when I'm voting somebody else.
Also, because you moved on, doesn't mean I moved on. Your reason given for your 'mistake' was an excuse, not an explanation. The difference being: the first is made-up, while the latter is true.
Why it's an excuse?:
-"We only have up to 4 (?) days to hit scum.", while knowing we have 6 players and 2 scum. It also makes his 'fear' of L-1 look bad on the first day, when you think we have 4 days.
-Knowing that it's nightless, but not knowing that there are lovers. Stating that you didn't know that there are lovers due to being used to Newbie Games, doesn't make sense when you know about the game being nightless.

Well, now we're stepping into some major WIFOM (e.g. "you must be scum b/c you did such and such", "no, I can't be; scum wouldn't be that stupid", "yeah, but you want us to think that scum wouldn't be that stupid, so you did it and you're using that as an excuse"... etc.)
To get to the point, I don't find it particularly scummy (and never said I did). I was just pointing out the unnecessariness (yes, I just made that word up) of claiming VT during this game.

You think scum would be more adamant about claiming vanilla, and especially early on. So how is it not a scumtell to you?


Also, did you read all of my posts or not?

[ZazieR]

And as aside, we should lynch scum David.

Unvote Vote Imkingdavid

I'm having an idea who his partner could be, but it's based upon an assumption.

[ZazieR]

I didn't really like 12KeyBlade's overt show of caution

Then why haven't you pointed this out against David?

I thought two bandwagons would be more interesting than one

and also I wanted to vote for you

.

ORLY?:

Fair enough. I probably wouldn't have voted for ZazieR if IMkingdavid hadn't done it first.

I'm just a real sucker for peer pressure, you know?

What's your opinion of David?
And why aren't you supporting his wagon?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Can we have a VC?
Also, if possible, can you prod 12KB?

[ZazieR]

What's your opinion of David?
And why aren't you supporting his wagon?

lol-ed. just because you find someone scummy, doesn't mean everyone else does.

anyway, like I said I have to go. cheers!

Let him response first.

[ZazieR]

Also, I think David is advertising his own wagon with a sig like that

[ZazieR]

I could go for a IKD lynch, but I'd much rather get rid of Sanjay.

Why could you go for a David lynch?

[ZazieR]

Sanjay

- What's up with you ignoring my questions in Post 85?

[ZazieR]

Zwet, you haven't done anything productive since the game began. Care to post something longer than one sentence?
Oh wait, now I remember. You never post anything more than 1 sentence. Never mind.

Why this personal attack?

Also, regarding your example. If it's not in the same league as what actually happened, it's called an invalid comparison. Which is the case here.

Also, may I pose the question: why would scum so blatantly choose to omit such a major part in the game?

Two reasons, of which one may not be applicable here:
-You saw a different player state that he didn't know. If this player is town, you as scum gain advantage of this. Because if one townie does it, another townie can make the same mistake, not? (This is the one that may not be applicable and this is a lesser reason why scum would do it compared to the other)
-Why would scum fake knowing the setu-up? Because we're dealing with

Mafia

lovers. So who would know the set-up of the scum side better: Town or scum?
The answer is scum. So by faking it, it gives a town impression.
However, when a bad excuse gets stated, like now, it needs some investigation.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP:

imkingdavid, could you explain why you don't think

acting like you don't know

the mafia are lovers constitutes actual evidence?

AHh, just caught on to your sneaky choice of words, too. You guys are pretty quick to accuse me of being scum for "acting" like I forgot and making up "false excuses" to save myself. But 12KB did the same thing and you didn't blink twice when he apologized. Not to ask you guys to stop looking at me, but it seems strange that you'd look hard at one person for doing something that another person did and not look at the other person.

Pointing fingers is noted.
Also:

theorically if you've caught one scum you've got the other by suicide reaction.

Ah, excellent point! I had forgotten about the lovers.

How?

[ZazieR]

Also,

David

, anything else you want to comment on in Post 81?

[ZazieR]

RE: that was a follow-up question to

"Also, may I pose the question: why would scum so blatantly choose to omit such a major part in the game?"

If I were scum, I wouldn't blatantly act like I forgot something like that, as it would shine the light on me instantly, as has happened in this case. From experience, I know that I pay more attention to detail in games I play as scum compared to games I play as town. When I was scum (i.e. in my first game, newbie 802) I would spent 10 minutes fretting over whether or not a post might even sound the slightest bit scummy. But as town, I don't pay as much attention. Apparently I haven't been paying enough.

Anyway, are you going to answer my question, or are you going to try and make me look worse by not answering but expecting an answer out of me? Because the latter is scummy.

Circular logic.
Also, arguments like 'I wouldn't do this as scum' are invalid in a game like Lovers.

[ZazieR]

well, IKD has more content to analyse and isn't as bandwagon-berserk as you are Sanjay

Question: Why is bandwagoning scummy?

[ZazieR]

David

- Why aren't you voting anybody?

[ZazieR]

Checking for prods.

Mod

- The guy you're searching for is also known as 12KB. Please prod him.
Perhaps it's time to get my stick out again...

[ZazieR]

because when I exclude myself and the people who I think are scum, lynching him has a 66% chance of netting scum.

And I wouldnt say bandwagonning is scummy, but Sanjay is being fickle as a breeze.

Unless you want to change a word here, I have no idea what you're saying here.
Also, who do you think Sanjay's partner is if he's scum?

[ZazieR]

because when I exclude myself and the people who I think are scum, lynching him has a 66% chance of netting scum.

And I wouldnt say bandwagonning is scummy, but Sanjay is being fickle as a breeze.

Unless you want to change a word here, I have no idea what you're saying here.
Also, who do you think Sanjay's partner is if he's scum?

Also, for clarification, the 'him' in your quote is referring to David, right?

[ZazieR]

To contrast it with 12Keyblade's show of caution, 12Keyblade was cautious about people being put at L-2. That's a lot more eye catching than this imkingdavid post.

I'll wait with responding to the 12KB part as he has yet to respond to my posts. However, what David did is scummy. Why? Let's look back:
(The following bit is edited in a Zazie-way)
-First, we had 12KB at L-1. David:
'Already a bandwagon O.o? Please don't have a lynch yet.'
-Secondly, Sanjay for the first time at L-1. David:
'Zwet, don't behave Zwetish. We shouldn't have a lynch yet, because we only have 4 (?) days.'
-But at Sanjay's second L-1... David:
'Zaz, don't act Zazish. Also, here are my answers.'

Not one comment about the L-1. And the strangest thing about it is that the first two L-1 came during the time he thought it would take four days according to him, while the last situation came after the clarification.
Add that he has now stated that he don't like mindless bandwagoning. And if you look back at my post in which I voted Sanjay, what should the impression have been? Yet, he gave no comment on it whatsoever.

1. I am puzzled how he forgot the mafia were lovers ESPECIALLY after 12Keyblade made the post about forgetting about the lovers. I am generally a little skeptical that anyone in this game would forget about that, since it is the whole theme of the game, but imkingdavid's post seems especially weird.

Answer: David faked it.

2. If imkingdavid is scum and is trying to pretend he forgot the mafia were lovers, it seems like a very crafty way to do it (speculating that there are 4 days left to kill mafia). I suppose if 12Keyblade was town imkingdavid might have gotten the idea to forget that there were mafia as well, but if this were the case it seems like it would be a lot easier for him to just use it as evidence against 12Keyblade and go for his lynch, rather than trying to copy him.

Though I suppose that if he is scum he has access to daytalk so he could get his partner to go after 12Keyblade, but that seems like a bad strategy to go after someone else for the same thing your partner is doing. Plus if this were the case I would not have expected imkingdavid to be clueless about why it is scummy in the first place.

Answer: Given in the second paragraph of the above quote.
Suspect both, try and get 12KB lynched and the partner can then state that the action of forgetting about the lovers is less suspicious now as a townie did it already.

3. I don't know why imkingdavid doesn't find 12Keyblade scummy for posting about not knowing the mafia were lovers. He seems to be abandoning it as a valid piece of evidence altogether, even if he

Rephrase?

ZazieR, was the ORLY? part of 85 a serious question or should I just answer that with YA RLY or something?

I want to know which of the two was the case. Did you want to vote me or not?

[ZazieR]

David

Can you respond to this?:

4. I wasn't trying to word my question to make imkingdavid look bad and I don't know why he thinks I did. imkingdavid, I said you were acting like you forgot about the lovers because you were. I don't know whether you actually forgot as well, so I really don't feel like I am twisting anything by phrasing the question like that. Maybe I am misreading myself, but it seems a bit paranoid to me, which is a little scummy.

And to this as well?:

Not one comment about the L-1 (Second L-1 against Sanjay). And the strangest thing about it is that the first two L-1 came during the time he thought it would take four days according to him, while the last situation came after the clarification.
Add that he has now stated that he don't like mindless bandwagoning. And if you look back at my post in which I voted Sanjay, what should the impression have been? Yet, he gave no comment on it whatsoever.

[ZazieR]

Unvote; Vote: Imkingdavid

YAY someone on my scumlist!

Who else is on this scumlist? Am I to infer that both 12Keyblade and myself aren't on it or something? What's the deal with that?

You're not happy that you aren't on his scumlist? If you are happy, then why ask these questions?

[ZazieR]

Unvote; Vote: Imkingdavid

YAY someone on my scumlist!

Who else is on this scumlist? Am I to infer that both 12Keyblade and myself aren't on it or something? What's the deal with that?

You're not happy that you aren't on his scumlist? If you are happy, then why ask these questions?

Also, after looking back, it seems you posted a few times after Zwet made this post. So why only comment on it now?

[ZazieR]

Also, regarding your example. If it's not in the same league as what actually happened, it's called an invalid comparison. Which is the case here.

Also, may I pose the question: why would scum so blatantly choose to omit such a major part in the game?

Two reasons, of which one may not be applicable here:
-You saw a different player state that he didn't know. If this player is town, you as scum gain advantage of this. Because if one townie does it, another townie can make the same mistake, not? (This is the one that may not be applicable and this is a lesser reason why scum would do it compared to the other)
-Why would scum fake knowing the setu-up? Because we're dealing with

Mafia

lovers. So who would know the set-up of the scum side better: Town or scum?
The answer is scum. So by faking it, it gives a town impression.
However, when a bad excuse gets stated, like now, it needs some investigation.

1) Yes, but wouldn't it be stupid for scum to make the same mistake literally RIGHT after a townie did? As I said in my defense, this is my first non-newbie game so i'm still getting used to the different things. Also, as I said, when I am scum I pay a load more attention to what I type than when I am not scum. If you must, you can go reference each of my other games and see how erratic I am when posting as town, whereas I never got even 1 vote against myself during my entire game as scum (newbie 802), showing that I do pay much more attention to detail.
2) You are correct, scum do know the setup. Only they and the mod know the setup. So because I had to go re-evaluate what I said, it shows that I had not spent much time at all on thinking about the setup but rather I posted before I thought hard enough about it.

First of all, I've already explained why the reason you're stating for forgetting about the lovers is invalid.
Secondly, about the circular logic defence you're using, please explain why you're using it when you're stating it's invalid in each mafia game.

Pointing fingers is noted.

So you can point out if I ever say something might raise suspicion, but I can't point out when someone appears to be trying to make me look worse than I am?
Noted.

Rephrase?

[ZazieR]

As for Post 81,

David

:

Please explain why you brought up a 12KB/David scumteam, when I'm voting somebody else.

You think scum would be more adamant about claiming vanilla, and especially early on. So how is it not a scumtell to you?

Also, did you read all of my posts or not?

[ZazieR]

Because I don't remember any rule stating that everyone has to have a vote on someone at all times.

There is no such rule.
However, do you think that a player just gets lynched D1? It's not like that a player who is put at L-1 will get lynched in no time. So if you think this is the case, why do you think so?

Since we only have 2 days to get it right or we lose, I am not going to toss my vote around. Like I said above, I actually care about who gets lynched, whereas it would seem you don't since you have people at L-1 and L-2 at such early stages in the game. We have plenty of time until deadline.

Fallacy. Just because my vote has caused L-1 and L-2 doesn't mean I don't care about who gets lynched.

[ZazieR]

Just remembered,

Sanjay

, you still need to give your thoughts on David and tell why you aren't supporting his wagon.

[ZazieR]

Dram

, your opinion of David?
Also, you still need to answer who you can see as partner from Sanjay if he's scum.

[ZazieR]

I'm not voting David because I was unsure about my read. Was that not clear from my previous answer? How do you figure I hadn't given my thoughts on David? You obviously didn't miss them because you quoted from them.

My question was more aimed if you thought he was scummy or not. I couldn't tell from your post in which you go into full detail about David. But it seems you don't know yet.

What's your impression of 12Keyblade? Why is the David wagon more appealing to you than the 12Keyblade wagon?

Can't tell as he (or a future replacement) hasn't responded to my points aimed at him. As for why I was supporting the David wagon and not the 12KB wagon: Scummy > Unsure.

I haven't been very suspicious of zwet because he had come of as rather townish, but I was a bit surprised that he didn't consider 12Keyblade scummy.

Why?

[ZazieR]

well, IKD has more content to analyse and isn't as bandwagon-berserk as you are Sanjay

Question: Why is bandwagoning scummy?

I realize this is Dram's question, but I believe he already answered it in post 109, so I'll put in some input as well.
Bandwagoning is scummy when you are doing it just to have a vote on and to increase the votes on someone else. It makes it look like you don't actually have a reason to vote and as if you don't care who is lynched. And all protown players *should* care who is lynched, and therefore shouldn't bandwagon because someone could by mislynched before they can provide a defense.

What relevance does this have to the situation? We were talking about my bandwagoning. Is there a reason why you feel my vote for ZazieR and my vote for 12Keyblade demonstrate a lack of caring?

What motivated you to answer this question?

Also, unless it is LYLO, the mafia cares a lot more about who is lynched than town does.

Why did you ask the bolded?

[ZazieR]

Another L-1. See how funny you people are?

You didn't know that I like L-1's yet?

Is there a reason you made this post?

To announce that I support L-1's in Lovers games and that I also disagree with the bandwagoning argument.

[ZazieR]

And I just realised something.
Dram rather lynches Sanjay than David. Yet, he never pushes for Sanjay's lynch.
How come,

Dram

?

[ZazieR]

I think acting as if you don't know the mafia were lovers is scummy. And by scummy I mean scum are more likely to do it than town. 12Keyblade could have legitimately forgotten and so could have you. However, I think it is still a suspicious thing to forget, especially in a game called Lovers Mafia, especially when I figure people would actually think about the setups they are signing up for. If you are town, you know it.

But you don't know that 12Keyblade is town

, and I don't understand why you aren't suspicious of him.

Which is why you called 12KB out for that scummy action? (In case you couldn't tell, it's sarcastic. You didn't do so after 12KB stated he didn't know. Please explain why.)
Also, the bolded is a slip.

[ZazieR]

Sanjay

- Can you summarise why you voted David?

[ZazieR]

Dram

- Can you state why you voted David?

[ZazieR]

It's way more than you're supposed to say.

Sanjay, once the day 1 ends I'm voting you, fyi ^^

We just lynched. Game would be over if David would have been scum. No flip has been shown yet.
But you already talk about tomorrow. If you thought David was scum, shouldn't you be this confident in seeing a tomorrow? Noted.

[ZazieR]

It's way more than you're supposed to say.

Sanjay, once the day 1 ends I'm voting you, fyi ^^

Fine with me. Either I get quicklynched and I don't have to think about anything or I don't and vote for you.

Either way, easy street.

This is a scum post due to the bolded.

[ZazieR]

Seriously?

dramonic, if you are town you really need to unvote.

Why a different reaction than you stated before?

[ZazieR]

the fact they have daytalk.

You didn't know?

[ZazieR]

Sanjay

- Why no comment on the statement of Dramonic not knowing that scum could daytalk?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- What's the status of 12KB? We can't lynch scumteam Sanjay - Dramonic without him.

[ZazieR]

the fact they have daytalk.

You didn't know?

Meh, you're previous game doesn't show if you knew or not from your posts. Will need to look at the whole game in context. However, it does show you scumhunting, something I've been missing here.

[ZazieR]

Not pushing Sanjay? My vote has been on him for the vast majority of the game, barring the hammer and since then a vote in the wrong place could result in a scum quicklynch due to the daytalk synchro argument.

Pushing isn't the same as voting. When you push for somebody's lynch, you're trying to convince others to vote the player you want lynched. You didn't do so. How come?
Also, in case I forgot to ask you, your reason for voting Sanjay was based upon bandwagoning. So why didn't you point me out?

It's not like I think he's town, but I'm not seer, so i can't vote with the full assurance that I'm not wrong.

If you're not sure, then I wouldn't expect such determination. In this case, you lynched somebody who you thought was scum. Yet, after he was lynched, you stated that

once

day 1 was over, you'd vote Sanjay. No doubt in it at all. Eventhough stating you can't be sure. You were leaning scum on him. So I would expect statements of how the game is over or what happens in case it's not over yet, but not a statement what will happen after his lynch.
Your statement of being unsure and your statement after David's lynch don't match.

Also, I hammered IKD because it seemed a fwe members of the town considered him the scummiest and he was my second scum read, so why not lynch him?

Because he wasn't your top suspect. (Need to look at your other Lovers game as I thought you did the same there)
And to make it worse, you hammered him immediatly. Not giving him a chance to defend himself against Sanjay's vote.
And even more worse, you never joined the discussion around David.

Also, the players were less... vote-hysteric(?) in the last game.

Why state this?

[ZazieR]

IKD should have been scum.

Yes, he was acting very scummy. But now we know he wasn't scum.
So can you move on and state your opinions regarding Sanjay and Dramonic?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Zwet

, why were you actually suspicious of David?

[ZazieR]

Sanjay

Regarding the part of Zwet being not suspicious of 12KB, #2 isn't valid.

Why announce that when it takes the teeth out of your own L-1 and it gives scum clues on how to act townish?

Don't think it did (For both statements) and don't see how it gives clues.

I felt like you are playing up your pro-townness at the expense of your scumhunting here.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you rephrase it?

I agree the bolded looks like a slip. I've made scumslips as town before but I know that means basically nothing in this situation. You should definitely consider me suspicious because of it.

Links to those games?

I didn't call 12Keyblade out for his scummy action because I was waiting for him to respond to this post. It was the second time I saw 12Keyblade try to cast a much wider net of suspicion that is appropriate for good scumhunting and I wanted him to comment.

But he did respond to it, saying he didn't get it. So why not explain/rephrase it to him?

It's way more than you're supposed to say.

Sanjay, once the day 1 ends I'm voting you, fyi ^^

Fine with me. Either I get quicklynched and I don't have to think about anything or I don't and vote for you.

Either way, easy street.

This is a scum post due to the bolded.

How?

It's mostly the 'Fine with me'. If you're town, this could lead to our loss. Yet, you state that it's fine with you. Eventhough you added that you could get quicklynched.
This gives me the impression that it's a loose threat.

I was suspicious of him because I didn't like that he wasn't scumhunting,

I thought he was playing too townie

and I thought he was suspicious for apparently actually forgetting about the lovers.

Can you give examples of the bolded? Or is it a different wording of his cautiosness?
Also, do you agree that there have been many players not scumhunting?

What's your opinion of Dram's vote against David and the statements afterwards before D2 started?

I didn't notice at scummy. You are misrepresenting dramonic. He said he hadn't considered that the mafia don't have daytalk. Not that he didn't know. The former is a lot more plausible than the latter.

Did you misread dramonic? Do you disagree?

Misread him. But it doesn't change the point. Especially as he has played the Lovers set-up before.

[ZazieR]

daytalk hadn't even crossed my mind.

On one hand, your assessment is correct, on the other in lover games I workely hunt on gut feeling. Unfortunately, that's not something you can defend again or something I can elaborate.

So what's causing these gut feelings?

[ZazieR]

Replacement info sent. Awaiting the confirm in the thread.

Can we at least hear the name already?

[ZazieR]

Pushing isn't the same as voting. When you push for somebody's lynch, you're trying to convince others to vote the player you want lynched. You didn't do so. How come?
Also, in case I forgot to ask you, your reason for voting Sanjay was based upon bandwagoning. So why didn't you point me out?

I could push and say "lynch Sanjay, my gut says he's scum!" Not convincing at all <<

You stated before that you hunt based upon gut in Lovers game. If this is true, I don't see where the problem lies as you did push for lynches during the other game. What's the difference between these two games?
Also, there were two questions in my quote. Why didn't you answer the other?

Hope for the best prepare for the worst. I'm not one to go "yeah, we won!" before the lynch is announced and I'll continue saying my thoughts for the next day til it is.

Will meta to see if this is shown in one of your past games.
You can help by linking to past games, preferably only those where you were present around Mylo and/or Lylo.

Does it really matter? At the very least half is wagon was town, I wouldn't complain about a town-approved lynch. Once again, I'm confortable with following town-consensus in exchange of a non-stalling game.

Yes, it does matter. Otherwise, I wouldn't be pointing this out.
Also, not liking the last sentence as this game wasn't stalling at all. Heck, you even interrupted discussion with your vote.

Why state this?

Adapt to your surrounding.

Please elaborate as I still don't understand.

[ZazieR]

Restatement of the second question for

Dramonic

:
You didn't like Sanjay's bandwagoning. Yet, I bandwagoned as well. But you never pointed me out. Why?

I know it wasn't stalling, it's a theorical case. Also, I don't believe I interrupted much

I disagree. David disagreed. I wouldn't be surprised to see if others were.

In a more relaxed town, I play more relaxed, in a more votecrazy town, I'm votecrazier.

Hard to believe.

[ZazieR]

Replacement info sent. Awaiting the confirm in the thread.

Can we at least hear the name already?

It's meeeeeeee!

Vote:dramonic

You damn wagonpusher hehe
I think it's a bit obvious, maybe if you read the whole thread like I had to do you understand it.
About his partner, I think about zwet or maybe sanjay, but a dramonic/zwet team really fits in their atitude.

Your reasons for voting Dramonic please.
And why a quick vote when we're in Lylo?

[ZazieR]

Of course you know my attitude. But if you're town you don't want to put anyone in scum quickhammer range.

Which is why you did so with Sanjay at the start of D2?

[ZazieR]

Replacement info sent. Awaiting the confirm in the thread.

Can we at least hear the name already?

It's meeeeeeee!

Vote:dramonic

You damn wagonpusher hehe
I think it's a bit obvious, maybe if you read the whole thread like I had to do you understand it.
About his partner, I think about zwet or maybe sanjay, but a dramonic/zwet team really fits in their atitude.

Your reasons for voting Dramonic please.
And why a quick vote when we're in Lylo?

Malpascp

, here are the questions you ignored.

[ZazieR]

Correction, I only voted IKD when he was in hammer range.
I was staying on the site and would have unvoted when a vote would have appeared.
It's still a gut feel. His badnwagonning doesn't seem genuine.

Would you have voted David if he wasn't in hammer range?

Meaning that if you're a townie, you should have been able to see a reason why Mal-town would have voted, not?

[ZazieR]

Why?

[ZazieR]

I am suspicious of 12Key

You haven't paid attention.

[ZazieR]

IKD should have been scum.

Yes, he was acting very scummy. But now we know he wasn't scum.
So can you move on and state your opinions regarding Sanjay and Dramonic?

Also,

Zwet

, why were you actually suspicious of David?

To help you out a bit.

[ZazieR]

@Zazie: I dont see what questions I didnt answer

Your reasons for voting Dramonic please.
And why a quick vote when we're in Lylo?

You've stated that it should be obv that Dram is scum, but I have barely (if not none) see any reason from you.
And Dram is right about one thing. We're in Lylo, so we should be careful with our votes. Why aren't you?

[ZazieR]

And why would I have left someone who could potentially be scum alive "just cuz" he's not my top suspect? It's silly.

Because you prefered Sanjay? That preferment should have been strong as you only wanted to hammer David.
With this said, can you please tell something about your previous lovers game? Because you had no problems there putting your second suspect at L-1.

[ZazieR]

Cause he's not at a risk of getting scum to pile on his vote because he's one of them

Will see what he has to say first.

[ZazieR]

Will respond later to Zwet stating he's not suspicious of 12KB D1 after he has read what has happened lately and has responded to it.

Basically, if you talk about how much you like L-1s it makes scum less worried about being at L-1 because they know you are just doing it because you like it.

The David-wagon proved that this is wrong. Besides, my vote may just be there for the show, doesn't mean that other players think the same. My vote may be less dangerous, but there are still two other votes and a different player might hammer.

Will look at the link later and compare it with this one.

dramonic's vote against IKD is consistent with his "let's lynch whoever I don't have a town-read on and hope for the best" attitude. It is definitely not a pro-town attitude but I don't necessarily think it is scummy.

Yes, it is. Especially with his gut he can't explain.

I didn't notice at scummy. You are misrepresenting dramonic. He said he hadn't considered that the mafia don't have daytalk. Not that he didn't know. The former is a lot more plausible than the latter.

Did you misread dramonic? Do you disagree?

Misread him. But it doesn't change the point. Especially as he has played the Lovers set-up before.

It does change the point. dramonic's first lovers game resulted in a day 1 mafia lynch. I don't think the mafia's ability to coordinate a quicklynch really came up.[/quote]

You misunderstood what I meant with 'the point'. The point is the same as the point against David and 12KB forgetting about the lovers.
And as said, I'll look if he should have known from his previous game.

[ZazieR]

Zwet

, a request.
Can you look at Open 166 (The previous Lovers game with Dram in it) and compare his play there and here? And afterwards can you tell us what you think of the difference between the two?

[ZazieR]

Dram

, your thoughts of not being quick lynched yet, please.

[ZazieR]

Yep, this game needs more Zwet.

[ZazieR]

Well, everything needs to have a first time, right?
If correct, he should be able to give a lot of information.

[ZazieR]

should be able?

I'll be surprised if he writes a paragraph...

Everything will be explained later when I have gotten what I want from him.

[ZazieR]

@Zazie: I dont see what questions I didnt answer

Your reasons for voting Dramonic please.
And why a quick vote when we're in Lylo?

You've stated that it should be obv that Dram is scum, but I have barely (if not none) see any reason from you.
And Dram is right about one thing. We're in Lylo, so we should be careful with our votes. Why aren't you?

Hi

Malp

. Will you answer them now?

[ZazieR]

Dram essentially is the same,

but slightly more cautious in this game.

Can you elaborate on the bolded?
Also, Malp isn't the only one who didn't answer questions aimed at him:

IKD should have been scum.

Yes, he was acting very scummy. But now we know he wasn't scum.
So can you move on and state your opinions regarding Sanjay and Dramonic?

Also,

Zwet

, why were you actually suspicious of David?

To help you out a bit.

[ZazieR]

looks like me and Sanjay are the only one who care about your questions XD

Well, Zwet did answer one of my questions... The least important one ._.

[ZazieR]

forgot to remove the err, ><

was going to write vote scum, err, vote malp, but decided agaisnt it.

why?

[ZazieR]

looks like me and Sanjay are the only one who care about your questions XD

Well, Zwet did answer one of my questions... The

least

important one ._.

Seems like an important question to me.

Bolded something for you. It means that it was important, but of the questions asked, the other two were more important.
Why have you still not answered them?

[ZazieR]

Due to my vacation I have right now, it feels as if it's saturday to me.
As I have the impression it's saturday, it means this would be Zwet's third day of not posting. And that is general prod day.
So

Mod

, please share this impression with me and prod Zwet and Malp so that both can finally answer my questions.

[ZazieR]

@Zazie: I dont see what questions I didnt answer

Your reasons for voting Dramonic please.
And why a quick vote when we're in Lylo?

You've stated that it should be obv that Dram is scum, but I have barely (if not none) see any reason from you.
And Dram is right about one thing. We're in Lylo, so we should be careful with our votes. Why aren't you?

Hi

Malp

. Will you answer them now?

In case you were wondering which questions as well.

[ZazieR]

Sorry Zaz, it's friday. Please restate your questions.

They were only re-asked previous page ._.:

Dram essentially is the same,

but slightly more cautious in this game.

Can you elaborate on the bolded?
Also, Malp isn't the only one who didn't answer questions aimed at him:

IKD should have been scum.

Yes, he was acting very scummy. But now we know he wasn't scum.
So can you move on and state your opinions regarding Sanjay and Dramonic?

Also,

Zwet

, why were you actually suspicious of David?

To help you out a bit.

[ZazieR]

Sorry Zaz, it's friday. Please restate your questions.

They were only re-asked previous page ._.:

Dram essentially is the same,

but slightly more cautious in this game.

Can you elaborate on the bolded?
Also, Malp isn't the only one who didn't answer questions aimed at him:

IKD should have been scum.

Yes, he was acting very scummy. But now we know he wasn't scum.
So can you move on and state your opinions regarding Sanjay and Dramonic?

Also,

Zwet

, why were you actually suspicious of David?

To help you out a bit.

I count three questions, but only one got answered. Two left to go.

[ZazieR]

Sanjay is town, Dram or you is scum.

Could you give reasons?

[ZazieR]

I am suspicious of 12Key

Also, what happened to your suspicions of 12KB?

[ZazieR]

Three questions left to go.
And also, please state your reasons why your 12KB suspicions went 'poof'.

[ZazieR]

He no longer seems scummy.

How come?
Still waiting on the answers from the other questions I've asked as well.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Zwet

, why were you suspicious of 12KB?

[ZazieR]

@Zazie: I dont see what questions I didnt answer

Your reasons for voting Dramonic please.
And why a quick vote when we're in Lylo?

You've stated that it should be obv that Dram is scum, but I have barely (if not none) see any reason from you.
And Dram is right about one thing. We're in Lylo, so we should be careful with our votes. Why aren't you?

Hi

Malp

. Will you answer them now?

In case you were wondering which questions as well.

Malp

, how long does this quote pyramide needs to get before you respond to it?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Zwet

, why were you suspicious of 12KB?

He was scummy.

Now with reasons.

[ZazieR]

I think I'm going to stop responding to Zaz's stupid questions now.

As if you ever responded to any of them. No reasons were given.
They aren't stupid at all. Give one reason why they are.

[ZazieR]

It would be cool to see something new on this thread
I guess I asked Zaz's questions for nothing, as before I answered this game was only about "malpa answer me" etc.
Say something guys, or tomorow there will probably be proded people around here (like me)

Look,

Zwet

, he's talking about you. Answer my questions and his wishes for new stuff will come true.
Also,

Malp

, it was also 'Zwet, answer me' and still is the case.

[ZazieR]

This game needs to end soon, it's stalling really hard.

Blame Zwet.

[ZazieR]

Vote zaz!

If you want votes on me, why aren't you voting me yourself?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Zwet

, please state when a question is 'stupid' to you.

[ZazieR]

Actually, now that I think about it, unless dramonic and malp are scum lovers voting for each other, I suppose there is just as much a chance of hitting scum between ZazieR and zwet as there is between malp and dramonic.

Though if it is a choice between choosing between malp and dramonic or ZazieR and zwet, I'll probably choose malp and dramonic because zwet is ridiculous to read.

That was my reason for not voting Zwet yet. I only thought that one of Dramonic and Malp is confirmed scum. But as it's very unlikely both are scum together, it's almost positive that there is scum in Sanjay and Zwet. I hadn't realised that yet.
With that said,

Vote Zwet

I'm more confident that Zwet is more likely to be scum than Sanjay, while I can't say something like this in the scenario of Dram and Malp.

[ZazieR]

I'm so glad that I remembered that Zwet has been in a previous lover game.
Check Open 133, modded by Empking. Compare his play there and here. Note the difference in his play there and here.
Zwet is scum based that difference and his actions here (Will get to that soon)

[ZazieR]

Zwet

's scummy actions:
-Ignoring questions
-Not voting his top suspicion, but asking others to vote for his top suspicion
-Stating D1 that 12KB isn't on his scumlist. After Malp replaces in, he states that 12KB is the scummiest. And in the end, those suspicions towards 12KB went 'poof'.

[ZazieR]

Also, please note this rule:

10) If no majority is reached at the deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched.

We shouldn't have any ties at deadline or the scum can change their vote just before deadline to get a correct lynch for them.