Open 175 - Picking Simplicity (Game Over)

[SerialClergyman]

Hi everyone!

A lot of people here from Hambargarz game, of which I thought I had erased all memory but the scars that are your names show me I haven't. Almost worth policy lynch Kreirov on the basis of his scum-playing ability alone..

Otherwise, hello to you kids that I've played with and looking forward to playing with everyone else. I'll get my re-read on and then come back and give you my take on the game.

[SerialClergyman]

unvote

forgot about that.

[SerialClergyman]

Still re-reading.

Weep not for those who come before us. For those who come after us.

Weep, instead, for those that miss this time of glory.

Spyrex - are not those who come before and those who come after the same as those who miss this time of glory?

You've just been lojikscrutinized.

[SerialClergyman]

Guys

Stop the rubbish mumbo jumbo.

This back and forth between Spyrex and MichaelSableHeart is certifiably useless for the following reasons.
a) It's boring as all hell
b) it's wearing out their keyboards at a frantic rate which is bad for the environment in some sense.
c) There is obvious scum in the game in StrangerCoug.

I have a long list of town reads, probably too many, but there you go. I think skitzer is town, iguana is town, probably MSH and Spy are both town.

For the record, WarWound is worth a meta if you have any suspicions of him based on playstyle. But here's a hint for you kids - even the most retarded of VIs do not make this post about a buddy:

In my opinion, iguana is pretty dam awesome

Now foilest was scummy right off the bat.

Iguana, I appreciate your opinions, but this illustrates my point exactly. You've mentioned four people leaving 15 others (not including you) any four of whom could be scum. If they are scum they would be doing just fine since there are so many people here it would be ridiculously easy to slip by.

Typical scummy response, devaluing reads made at an early stage when iguana actually made some good concrete predictions about the group.

unvote

In reality my vote on Nikanor was a while ago and it was just a random vote, so its time to remove it.

12KB: I see the case here, and so far its the strongest against any of the players, but two scum tells and a scummy post is not enough of a difference from the other players to get my vote yet. I'm seeing an ungodly amount of lurking, and its going to be a while before I make up my mind.

Doubly so.

I'm going to go ahead and throw my vote on 12KB. vote:12KB

Most of what convinced me is on post 230.

He is the only one who has committed legitimate scum tells, and his wagon is only growing.

@Dramonic & Zwet - Odd statements thrown in every couple pages do not amount to active playing. You need to get in on this to get off of peoples scum lists. Fos:Zwet & Dramonic

Triply so. This was his lastp ost in the game, is followed the current wagon that was started by a case pages before this post by someone else.

I was wondering if it was bad play as opposed to scummy play, but I don't think so. It's not just fluffing about, it's discrediting attempts to advance the game and joining a current wagon.

But aside from that - we then had Zazie jump in and out again without much added.

Then SCoug comes in and posts a very long PBPA, which ended with a vote on... Warwound. The most classic scum lynchbait player ever. Plus with the reasoning of things like town should scumhunt and town shouldn't be afraid of a mislynch, he's already settling in with the most basic of reasons.

Second, I'd be willing to lynch saber simply for putting me in his scumlist.

Unvote. Vote: saberwolf.

FoS: Nikanor

. Shamelessly OMGUS'ing here.

Ugh. I mean seriously. This is world class scum-showing-they-are-hunting.

Finally, joining MSH's wagon because he thought Spyrex was winning the argument is meh (no particular reason he's scum despite losing the argument, especially as MSH was apparantly agreeing with SCoug's prediction of WWscum) but then unvoting without voting anyone else after little change isdodgy.

Time to get it done. No more walls without scumhunting. Spyrex, that means you. Get it done.

vote StrangerCoug

[SerialClergyman]

Then wake me up when you're ready to vote for scummy mcscumerson scoug.

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz

Spyrex, at least stop trying to convince MSH that he's wrong, because if he's scum you won't be successful, and try to convince

me

that he is, and that this logic issue is more important than my case.

[SerialClergyman]

Iguana - I'm the new war wound.

Can someone tell me how the zwet in this game is different from the zwet in every other game? Maybe then I'll consider a vote.

skitzer is town. No way scum would be dissuading that wagon. And noticing Nikanor's different meta is a good thing.

[SerialClergyman]

Kreirov, the main reason is because I dislike SCoug's position's play, rather than SCoug's play itself. I felt that that slot was scummy, but had those thoughts confirmed when SCoug, who I know as an excellent player, came in and voted lynchbait, voted poorly in the MSH/Spyrex logic argument and then made grandiose noises about spotting the obvious OMGUS from Nikanor.

But you also should know better, especially as you've seen WarWound's play before. Was your vote primarily a policy vote, or did you feel WW was scummy?

WarWound wasn't doing anything to further the game. He had been allowed lots of opportunity to help us, but he wanted to sit there and whine. That I don't have a meta favoring new players is not scummy. I play hardball.

At this point I'm pretty convinced that WarWound is scum.

Yes, we understand that a lot of the people on the site from whence you came don't have a very high intelligence level. That does not give you the right to opt out of scumhunting because you're afraid of a mislynch. Town doesn't lose if they mislynch once (unless there are five- and six-player games that I don't know about). Town loses if they mislynch too many times. You've also been throwing a lot of ad hominem attacks and otherwise useless content.

Vote: WarWound

In the first quote it looks like you're saying you voted WW because even if he's a newb, he wasn't really helping the town and that's how you roll. In the second quote, made when you first voted him, you seem convinced he was scum based on his actions.

Was your vote for WW a policy vote for an unhelpful new player or because you think you've genuinely found scum?

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, that's rubbish sabrewolf.

[SerialClergyman]

Yo Spyrex - tell me what you think about SCoug and my arguments against him even if you think MSH is more important... rough comment is fine.

[SerialClergyman]

I get a feeling you may be scum, Spyrex. I'm probably not going to get a wagon on you and I have a stronger feeling about my original suspicion, so I'll stick with SCoug, but I might as well highlight why I'm looking at you as well.

a) No scum could resist the tasty little morsel that saber just left. Unlike the generality of the others on the wagon, you already showed you were prepared to consider a town VI case because of WW, and you already showed you were prepared to hunt MSH above all else by not responding to anything within my SCoug case despite specific pressure.
But if saber is town, there was no consideration of him being a WW-style town VI and even MSH didn't stop you. And I think that's because that is dead on the easiest mislynch ever, and thus a pure honeytrap.

b) People obsessed with the SK are significantly more likely to be scum. They're harder to find and less dangerous than scum, so it's almost always the town reaction to look for scum, not an SK. For scum, the SK is one of the worst people out there - loose cannon kills are scary for the people concentrating mostly on saving their own bacon. For the town, he's mildly negative in a swingy way. He's hunting for power roles and scum, and gets more likely to hit scum the worse you're doing and vice versa. This is not a terrible role to remain out there.

c) The sickly smell of a mixture of policy and likely-scum intent that I get from your saber vote.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not necessarily aiming for anything, I'm just explaining how I'm seeing events.

If you're town, it's less likely that you have an SK read than a scum read. Partially because SKs are less of a threat, and partially because SKs are harder to find. So the fact you have an SK read and are looking specifically for an SK is already somewhat peculiar.

And even if you did, it's not necessarily the case that you'd want to lynch them, especially given we've lost three town members. I'd imagine that the SK is now definitely looking to hit scum to balance out the game.

But both specifically hunting for the SK and being gung ho about finding and lynching them together is cause for me to raise an eyebrow.

If this is a policy lynch - were you serious when you said you'd still prefer to lynch MSH?

The pressure I was talking about was me pressuring you to stop talking to and about MSH and either get on or comment on my SCoug case. You didn't do either of those things despite me mentioning you specifically in a couple of my posts on the subject and asking questions of you specifically until just then.

So you weren't even thinking about looking anywhere else, even when your sexy friend SerialClergyman comes in with guns blazing, and then sabre does something inexorably stupid and you're on him like ugly on Sarah Jessica Parker.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm on a tightrope here because I agree with this:

I may be wrong about MSH, but lol, reactions never does anything for me.

but I nonetheless feel edgy about your play.

I think it's weird for town to be looking for the SK (1) and trying to lynch the SK without a htought about whether he could be useful to us (2). I did exactly the same thing in a previous game as mafia, tried to look pro-town by hunting and pushing through the SK lynch. The SK is one of the top 2 or 3 roles that mafia wants dead, and I think the town are usually more concerned about scum.

However, as I say this I remember that in CKD's game we had a similar argument about whether the SK was important to kill or not, didn't we? But I don't know your alignemtn there..

As for addressing my case - nope.

Well, that's a little harsh, but I'll show what I mean.

Time to get it done. No more walls without scumhunting. Spyrex, that means you. Get it done.

Before I get into detail(s) again, let me reiterate:

This is not a logic debate for the sake of logic. I am of the opinion that this was actively misused logic - and, thusly, that Mic is scum (specifically due to the SK fascination that ended in not voting for the SK).

So, if necessary I CAN stop arguing it but until it amounts to votes because people see what I'm arguing about I will continue.

Just not at the moment since I have company

Then wake me up when you're ready to vote for scummy mcscumerson scoug.

Zzz

Spyrex, at least stop trying to convince MSH that he's wrong, because if he's scum you won't be successful, and try to convince me that he is, and that this logic issue is more important than my case.

I'll try again.

It isn't that he's wrong. It is HOW he is wrong. He's got enough understanding of what he was trying to accomplish that the mistakes in the process are FAR more likely willful than accidental.

Further, the fascination with the SK points heavily at being the SK (especially at this juncture). This culminates with NOT voting for the SK.

Hence for the mo my other business falls to the side because lynching the SK is paramount at this point if one has a good read.

---

That said, we are way too spread out. We need some power wagons to get some business going.

See what I mean? I push my case, tell you to get involved and come join me and stop with MSH stuff and you literally never mention scoug or the case at all. The first time you mention it at all is when I specifically ask you directly your opinion on it irregardless of anythign else going on.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry - Mod, if you're around can you delete one of the two above posts? They're identical, I accidentally doubleposted.

Mod: Done.

[SerialClergyman]

I think most people in 1) and especially in 2) would atl east mention the wagon they're getting encouraged to join, whether they thought it was good or bad, likely to find scum or not etc etc. How do you convince someone option A is more important than option B without ever mentioning option B?

I thought was more a focus of you thinking I was fighting a logic fight wallstyle (I wasn't). and 2 I thought was asking for a summary (which I gave).

You are correct that these were also inherent to the posts, however.

Early game is a way different beast than end game. At this moment logistically it makes far more sense to eliminate an uncontrollable kill than to hope that it hits scum.

It's possible this is a simple theory argument. But I look at motivations, and hunting the SK leans more towards scum motivated than town motivated, I think. Still - I take your point.

[SerialClergyman]

No more praise of the self vote please. It's an act that does little more than muddy the waters, and the more people who do it as town, the more it will be a legitimate tactic for scum to use later. I could have energized the game by claiming scum or sk, but it wouldn't get us any closer to winning. For me, looking at the wagon and those who swooped in to vote, this comes down to policy voting for bad play or not voting town. Last time I chose the latter and this time I will too, but for gods sake let's hear no more about the up side of self voting please.

[SerialClergyman]

Its a small scumtell. However its also one of the "censurable tells" when done outside of RVS that if committed you should always lynch the player. Best case scenario, you lynch scum. Worst case scenario, you teach idiot-town a lesson, and hope they learn to not play as jackassedly in their next game. Other tells like these are claiming scum and lying about your role (however these are slightly less as there are exceedingly rare scenarios where they are a good move)

Also what spy said regarding Hyl.

Voting yourself is not a scum tell or a town tell.

Behaviour like saberwolf on the last page is null to me. It's a lot of WIFOM that can be done by both town and scum. It is mainly bad for the player who uses it, regardless of alignement.

That being said, one of my four scum candidates just became the leading wagon.

And of course...

The idiotic gambit of Sabrewolf. This cries out to me as a "they are on to me, so let me do something to try to throw them off my trail" sort of move. I think it was done to not only get the people who voted after he did it to unvote quickly, but to also try to discredit the other votes/leads on him from BEFORE he did this.

As such, I think we got one.

Personally, it really seems to me like Sabre was lurking scum who had to make a big splash before he was really called out for it. I mean really. In the immediately prior post CC says he would support lynching any lurkers and suddenly Sabre admits he has been lurking? Then he realized he did something stupid and finally tries to cover for it by saying he was trying to catch scum in his 'usual' non-traditional manner? Sabre screams scum to me.

Vote: Sabrewolf

Jesus Christ, saberwolf, you say you're playing to win and you self-vote? Are you suicidal?

... did he just scumclaim and vote himself?

Unvote, Vote: Saber

saberwolf wrote:
yes, I am.

oh, did scum just make the game too easy for you? My bad

Ugh.

Unvote

vote: Saberwolf

Nikanor was already voting him.
Iguana voted before the self-vote.


All this is one of the many reasons self-votes suck. It's so hard to analyse these positions and work out whose vote is disengenuous.

Aside from my point about Spyrex (which I've gone off somewhat, at least partially because i do remember his stanceo n SKs from another game), Kreirov stands out to me. His argument seems to be that sabrewolf used my explanation to dig him out of a hole. That seems to suggest that saber didn't realise his actions were a gambit and did his little self-vote scumclaim dance... for what? For funsies? Because he cracked under the pressure?

Kreirov also assumes that saber's reaction to being called out as a lurker 'yes, I've totally been lurking' was a scumslip, and he then attempted to address this scumslip with the self-vote.

[SerialClergyman]

FoS: skitzer. I don't care if the people in your game self-voted a lot as town, it's not a smart move to do. Stop defending saberwolf as a VI.

Skitzer remains town, SCoug remains scum.

Note all of what I've written (and even this point to a degree) are dependent on a saber townflip.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, unvote based on a role claim he can't have.

Kreirov and SCoug - take those two to the bank.

[SerialClergyman]

I suspect the PM he recieved is related to this:

Oh, and I'm not allowed to selfhammer. Mith's already been on my back for that before

[SerialClergyman]

Saber, I fully believe your town but I'm also prepared to policy vote you unless you stop it. Lol reactions is bad play on the face of it, screaming lynch me is out and out retarded.

Actually, bugger that.

Mod, can we get a replacement for Saber please?

1. Have fun and don’t be a jerk. This is a game. Don’t do anything to deliberately make the game not enjoyable for others.

16. Play to your win condition.

[SerialClergyman]

Spyrex, tell me why the behaviour is more likely to come from scum than town and I'll agree with you.

If not, tell me why a replacement is worse than a lynch?

[SerialClergyman]

I think any argument that he's scum is almost certainly incorrect. We've already had one of these lynches (zwet) and this is destined to be the second. He brouhgt it on himself but there are absolutely scum on this wagon.

But this is my point, motivations for both sides are retarded. Scum players just don't do ridiculously stupid things as a distraction. They don't take those kinds of risks. So don't look at his motivations, look at everyone else's reactions. That's where his alignment lies, and I'm telling you he's town, 95% sure.

Arguments like 'he needed to weasel out of the pressure he was under' are absolutely rubbish. He wasn't under any significant pressure, certainly nothing likely to make him rationally consider that ball of crazy as the best way to get out.

The only reason I'd think about lynching him is a policy lynch, and given we've already had one and I think there are much better scum leads, it worries me.

(The other sneaky reason for thinking about lynching him is that his alignment needs to be proved.)

Btu a replacement solves all that - we can judge the replacement on their play, not saber's. We can look at those scummy scumbuckets who rushed to the obvious lynch today and have a much better chance of hitting scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Zwet was either a bad lynch or a policy lynch.

I am almost certain thati n this game there are scum encouraging town players to vote for lynchbait. Lynchbait wagons are awesome for scum - they are almosti mpossbile to do wagon analysis on, any scum on the wagon just say that anyone would have made the same call and everyone pats themselves on the back about the lynch because it had to happen because that person was 'SOOO scummy'.

Well, typically I find thsoe people aren't scummy at all, but because they play badly they are regarded as such. Playing in such a way as to attract immediate suspicion on yoruself for no gain (in general, not just in saber's particualr case) has zero motivation for town or scum. Thus you need to deduce that it has no bearing on alignment. I see no town motivation (apart from lol reactions which is terrible and I only mention it out of completeness) for his actions, but I see no scum motivations either. But what I do see is a group of players for the second day running lining up to vote the indefensible 'obvscummy' player.

Hence why I think he's almost certainly town, and hence why I wrote this:

So don't look at his motivations, look at everyone else's reactions. That's where his alignment lies, and I'm telling you he's town, 95% sure.

Spyrex's 933 shows just how little pressure saber was under. 2 mentions by name in a group of 15ish players, one of which was in a 4-player group. RUBBISH to any theory that suggests this caused a panic implosion requiring him to do what he did. Absolute and utter rubbish.

Refusing a replacement because you're scared of dealing with the taint of his play on future incantations is pissweak, imho.

[SerialClergyman]

Spy, that summary is so far from what's on paper it's inexcusable.

You at the end of a post on something different entirely said that the town in general should get more together.

hohum promises a post that night, mentions nothign scummy about anyone (although this is worth remembering because I don't think he ever made it.. could be wrong about that.)

MSH gives 4 people he'd lynch, including saber.

CC replies to something MSH said and says saber's lynch wouldn't be bad despite him not being obvscummy, and gives a list of 4 people he'd lynch of which saber is not one.

So only 2 people even mentioned saber, one of which gave 3 other possible lynches and the other didn't actually put him in his 'will lynch' list.

So yes, any theory that says the pressure of one person sayign the town should unite without mentioning names, one person saying that saber was in his 4 suspects and one person saying he was NOT in his 4 lynch suspects but a saber lynch wouldn't be bad nonetheless IS ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.

At least I get the feeling you believe it though, unlike Kreirov.

SCoug - I'll try to reply soon but I'm running out of time at work. Sorry.

[SerialClergyman]

Your more recent post makes a better point, but primarily because it adds new information about the previous wagon. The situation was certainly not summarised accurately by:

Me: We need to get moving in A direction, and soon. This isn't gonna work.
Reply 1: I agree. X, Y, Z are good.
Reply 2: I could get down with Z
Reply 3: I, too, could get down with lurking Z.
Z: WACKY HIJINKS ENSUE

But even then - he didn't apparantly feel the need when he had a 3-vote wagon on him, but when a couple of people sniff around a wide net of suspects, some including his name and some not, that's what causes the panic snap?

Look - if we're arguing plausible vs impossible I'll lose on semantics, but if you're saying it's in any way significantly likely this is scum imploding at imminent pressure then it's agree to the disagree time.

SCoug - the fact that zwet was town is certainly a good start to it being a bad lynch. People are too afraid to analyse what's actually scummy and what isn't. But that leads me to the second point - he did very little that was actually scummy. Possibly unhelpful, or unusual or even considerably anti-town if you want to look at it like that, but there's very little scum motivation I can see for his actions. Look at the 3 or 4 pages before the lynch - he only has 4 votes before people wiggle their way onto his wagon with a shrug and a glance at the clock.

And yes, obviously if saber is town he needs his head checked, but if he's scum

he'd need it checked just as much.

BUt I'm not quite sure how to proceed now that the mod has ruled out a forcible rpelacement. Looking for a reason not to policy lynch tbh.

[SerialClergyman]

Yes, it's lynch time. No chance of redemption, no chance of another wagon.

Scoug remains scum. Kreirov and to a lesser extent spy look dicey. Nikanor too looks weird given how outside his meta he is. Can't think of anythink more inspirational to say, so there you go.

unvote, vote saberwolf

[SerialClergyman]

943 is pretty simular to all the other postsi made, what turned you around on it? And now that I've hammered, does your view change?

[SerialClergyman]

No, it's too bad you didn't apparantly give a toss about the people on your team and made your own lynch inevitable.

[SerialClergyman]

Fair question, but the answers are through my posts.

A. He remained acting like an idiot and asking people to lynch him rather than posting anything of worth.
B. The mod denied a replacement request.
C. No other viable wagon looked possible.
D. His alignment being confirmed will hopefully get some backing to my theories.

[SerialClergyman]

No, I get what you meant about head checked, you could rephrase it 100 times and still come up short though, stupid elaborate thinking

[SerialClergyman]

I'll give you ten to one on a town flip.

[SerialClergyman]

By the way, it's got nothing to do with HIS play that I'm sure he's town. It's got to do with the game and the reaction of the town.

[SerialClergyman]

Spy, it wasn't a bussing wagon, I think. There wasn't enough uncertainty. Few scum have the balls to jump on a teammate that definitively and quickly. Hence he's town, as opposed to scum bussed.

[SerialClergyman]

It at least partially irritates me when people say town lynches are good lynches. I get what you're trying to say, I get the reasoning behind it, but nonetheless to my mind it isn't the way you play the game.

Plus that exonerates people on the wagon.

Apparantly we've had 2 good lynches, yet we're going to be day three with in all liklihood 6 town members down, including at least one power role. Does that sound right to you?

I guess I'm hypocritical because in the end I participated in his lynch, but saber was definitely worse than most. So it goes, I suppose.

[SerialClergyman]

Spyrex - you owe me 10 bucks.

saber - Why not bring up your objection when I answered why I hammered at the end of yesterday?

[SerialClergyman]

Also - Spyrex where you at right now?

[SerialClergyman]

You do realize that you're not going to get an answer to this because you put the final nail in his coffin, do you not?

I don't understand what you mean. I hammered, then you asked me why I hammered, then I answered very thoroughly. Why didn't you continue the ocnversation? The thread wasn't locked for 12 hours or so?

@all - I just looked back at kill flavours and there has been a third introduced last night. We've now had choking, smothering and shot. This suggests to me that the mafia are smothering and a different mafioso committed the kill last night.

[SerialClergyman]

Yep, I was. I initially thought third kill faction and then went and had a look at the page 1 post and slapped myself.

I also have confirmation from mod that the third kill flavour was intentional, and the mod previously answered in thread that each kill would be distinctive.

So I think my assessment of it is almost certainly true - whether that leads to anything insightful or not is another question.

I meant where you at as in what are you thinking, who is likely to be scum? What do you think of my various theories and cases yesterday given the saber town flip? What do you think of Scoug's case against me and my hammering?

[SerialClergyman]

Actually, one thing the kill falvour does do is implicate you, Spyrex.

As I said yesterday, one of scum's top priorities is killing the SK. That was paritally why I didn't like your play so far, you were pushing hard on an SK case (that I did think you generally believed).

Now MSH is killed by mafia - supporting my point that mafia desperately want the SK dead - and you, the very person who was indeed sure that MSH was the SK, twice try to play down investigation into kill flavour (once saying to yabba that the mafia killed FF and once to me saying I was reading too much into it for an open game).

[SerialClergyman]

I don't think so. In my games, while I play with kill flavor, I try to make all the kills by the same faction related except sometimes for one. "Choked" and "smothered" both involve suffocation.

Perhaps I wasn't clear -

this is an open game, there are only two kill factions, one mafia and one SK. When I said 'different mafioso', I meant someone in the mafia who DIDN'T commit the first kill committed the second kill. I agree with you - I suspect al the non-shot kills are mafia, and each different flavour is a different member of the same faction.

[SerialClergyman]

Spy - if I conceded that MSH and Dram were SK kills then my entire point is worthless, I accept that.

But I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

Scott Brosius, Doctor, shot Night One
dramonic, Townie, choked to death Night One
Flava Flave, Townie, shot Night Two
MichelSableheart YankCane151, Townie, suffocated Night Two

I PMed the mod to ask if he realised that the flavour was now suffocated instead of choked and if it was intentional and he confirmed that it was.

I can't see a way to spin this (aside from convention dictating mafia shoot, which is pretty weak) that suggests mafia = shot and sk = variable.

[SerialClergyman]

Riddled with bullt wounds doesn't really imply a multiple, but I take your point on the singular side with the WWI veteran.

On the other hand, if the mod is applying individual flavours to each mafioso, then the singular just implies it was a singular mafioso that is doing the kill.

I have a better understanding of your point, but feel that having different flavour for the one person role is very unlikely, and I think that my suggestion that strangle/choked is mafia makes a lot more sense.

[SerialClergyman]

Interestingly, the actual item itself can be spelt sabre or saber. I would normally spell it sabre and I feel that's more classically correct than (I think) the Americanised 'saber' - much like meter and metre. But since you're using his name, it's probably better to use his spelling.

Now that the pansy grammar discussion is out of the way, it's time to play what SC calls BALLS OUT MAFIA.

That's when you stop pissing about and put your minimals on the line.

We have had two lynches on your standard lynchbait players. Everybody has patted themselves on the back and commisserated about the town's luck, and told each other why they had to happen. And there's a metric fuckton of scum amongst that crowd, cackling because they now have 6 town players down without so much as a juicy competing wagon or claim for the town to analyse.

And now there's a limpwristed push towards lurkers? Or Nikanor, the third incarnation of the lynchbait anti-town player? (despite the fact he is acting against my town meta of him).

Bugger that. Balls out mafia time. We are not getting steered into another 'what if' lynch of an anti-townish player that may or may not being mafia. We are going to psyche up, come to play and rock the kasbah, and we're going to do it by lynching StrangerCoug.

His previous incarnations were scummy, he's been scummy. He had the time to attack me yesterday and didn't. I gave this response to him afterh e asked why I hammered

Fair question, but the answers are through my posts.

A. He remained acting like an idiot and asking people to lynch him rather than posting anything of worth.
B. The mod denied a replacement request.
C. No other viable wagon looked possible.
D. His alignment being confirmed will hopefully get some backing to my theories.

It was three minutes after he posted.

He's now sayign that he was at work and needed to think about it, and it was only the next day that he decided I was scummy.

That's rubbish. A much more likely outcome is that he waited till night, his scumbuddies wanted to take out the likely SK so he thought he'd come out swinging to try to pre-empt any issue.

The full case on him that I posted is here: viewtopic.php?p=1986420#1986420

So enough is enough. I'm not defending lurking, I'm not even defending anyone specifically, because the town is fractured and so busy getting steered towards lynchbait and lurkers and the like they don't know which way is up. It's time to get a good old fashoined solid wagon up, and SCoug is as good as any.

Get it done. Balls out mafia.

Spy - if you join I'll waive your 10 bucks.

[SerialClergyman]

Arg, never got back to you.

But an underwhelming response nonetheless.

Bullet points are:

* Foilest was scummy as. Look at him in iso or in my original case.
* SCoug has only attacked easy targets, including two who have flipped town already.
* He has pushed a pro-town image by making obvious comments but has done very little hunting or pushing.
* Had a little hiccup where he joined MSH's wagon for no reason then unjoined it.
* Came out D3 with a significantly different attitude towards me.

-----

Grimmy and anyone who thought my questioning his schedule was harsh - I accept there is a line you don't really cross and you have to take people talking about their real lives at face value.

However, there had been a series of posts leading up to the crucial post and SCoug's latest post directly before that crucial post was

3 minutes

before i made it. So either he just asked a question about me hammering then wandered off before I gave my response, or he saw the answer but decided to wait until night to work out how to deal with me.

I know it's lame to question how he said his day went down, and it could well be true, but at the very leasti t's suspicious timing.

Also, can we PLEASE not assume that the mafia are shooting people. It's possible, but in my opinion significantly less likely than smothering/choking. If the night kill doesn't make sense, perhaps it is because you are looking at them from a mixed up manner. The mafia killing MSH makes perfect sense. The SK having two different kill flavours that I have mod confirmation was intentional does not.

[SerialClergyman]

To be honest, even then it still wouldn't make any sense.

What exactly are you suggesting with that line of questioning, though?

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, Grimmy, that is rubbish. It was my replacing in post, I started it by explaining why I didn't think that Spyrex should persist with MSH and why we should instead focus on Coug. One of the three points I made against foilest contained Iguana's name but that's about the limit. There are still tow against foilest and more against SCoug that make up the majority of what I'm saying. I don't know quite how to respond to your assessment given it was just out and out wrong..

And if you think I'm voteworthy - vote me. What's with saying I'm voteworthy and not voting me?

That's just a shocker of a post. Worth coming back to after SCoug.

The fundamental problem with the NK situation is that there are two flavours for one kill and one flavour for the other. There is only one faction with multiple members, and thus multiple flavours possible. If anyone can explain that, I'll drop it. Coincidentally, the way that makes much more sense (that the mafia killed the suspected SK) is my way. I've gone over this enough I'm going to leave it there. If anyone is going to think me scummy because of this argument, I'd just like a reason more than 'general hijinks' for my motivation. I can't see how creating confusion about it would help me as scum or an SK.

As for Scoug - I can judge your playerslot on your predecessor even if you feel you can't explain his actions. Asking for quotes in reponse to a bullet point summary for another player is stupid, but your FOS of nikanor for shamelessly omgusing was a perfect example. You haven't persued a case, it wasn't something anyone could have missed, it was just a nothing post made to look protown.

If you were town and had worries about my hammer, I'd assume you would have addressed any of the points I made in explaining my actions, whether you did it yesterday or today.

Fair question, but the answers are through my posts.

A. He remained acting like an idiot and asking people to lynch him rather than posting anything of worth.
B. The mod denied a replacement request.
C. No other viable wagon looked possible.
D. His alignment being confirmed will hopefully get some backing to my theories.

Feel free to do so now. They are the reasons why I hammered. If you think my multiple posts tryign to get him replaced or trying to explain his actions as a null tell are disengenuous, try to make that case.

@ all

WAKE UP AND PLAY PLEASE. If you disagree with the SCoug case, post a different one. The utter nothingness of the posts from Spyrex, Nikanor and Col Cathart (not to mention the zero reponse from a significant group of other players) are just sapping my desire to bother fighting for this game.

[SerialClergyman]

Nikanor earns himself a cookie. I have more.

[SerialClergyman]

Ohhh god this looks like its shaping up to be lol, reactions AGAIN my lord why, why why.

!support.

What do you think the difference in attitude is? Thats the one that gets me - considering that, yea, there was scum on that wagon if SC is scum why would he flip on YOU after that versus the others?

Why wouldn't he? I have a very specific theory about this but I'm not too keen on sharing it just at the moment. But isn't it enough that after the night phase SCoug acts significantly differently? And why wouldn't he come out after the person that has been saying he's scum unequivocally since the start of the game?

[SerialClergyman]

I don't understand this line:

Overall I COULD see a scum salivating at that but at you? No way. There were WAY more shady people on that wagon.

Are you saying that my suggesting this scenario is true is indicative of me being scum? Or are you saying that scenario isn't scummy at all?

Either way - there being shadier people on the wagon doesn't prove or disprove the point on this particular issue. As I said, I'm not prepared to go over the specific motivation I read in the play yet, but it shouldn't particularly be necessary. On that point, the question is whether SCoug is genuinely affronted by my hammering of saberwolf or if he is scum who is pre-empting an attack. I think the latter is far more likely, especially given his lack of material in attacking me or attacking my reasons for hammering.

And what about everything else on my bullet point list?

Why do you think he's town?

[SerialClergyman]

saber's lynch had nothing to do with being too fast. What more information would have been achieved with more time?

I'm also not trying to speed up the day, I'm trying to get some actual wagons going on some actually scummy people, not these irritating policy lynches that have had over 1/3 of the players in the game killed so far with zero result for the town.

If you think this is a healthy game at the moment you're severely mistaken.

Grimmy, do you regularly say who you intent to vote but then not vote them for a couple of days?

Spy - I'm not oozing protown to most of the group. And I'm guranteed to come after him. That makes me the perfect target.

SCoug, I get that you're sick, so don't feel you have to respond, but if you're going to post about our argument I'd like you to address this bit please:

If you were town and had worries about my hammer, I'd assume you would have addressed any of the points I made in explaining my actions, whether you did it yesterday or today.

Fair question, but the answers are through my posts.

A. He remained acting like an idiot and asking people to lynch him rather than posting anything of worth.
B. The mod denied a replacement request.
C. No other viable wagon looked possible.
D. His alignment being confirmed will hopefully get some backing to my theories.

Feel free to do so now. They are the reasons why I hammered. If you think my multiple posts tryign to get him replaced or trying to explain his actions as a null tell are disengenuous, try to make that case.

[SerialClergyman]

All of those A-D points are true. Had I not hammered, he would still be around self-voting and playing with himself which would have been a bad distraction.
I did geneuinely try to get him replaced (something that would be stupid as scum compared to just getting everyone to mislynch him).
There was no other possibility I could push, I tried to push you pretty hard but got no takers, there was nothing approaching a counter wagon.
His alignment being confirmed hasn't exactly worked yet, but the point remains that if he was still in the game the WIFOM surrounding letting him live after a self-vote would mean suspicion would naturally be pulled away from any reasonable argument and come to rest with him. Now that everyone knows he was indeed town, we can look at that wagon of people happy for a lynch and pick the scum off it - IE you.

(You don't have to reply straight away, I don't mean to make you write up long posts while you're sick, mate )

[SerialClergyman]

Oh my god this game.....

If aggressiveness and joining wagons are scumtells, what on earth do you expect the town to do? Pick their noses and random vote?

Humor me, wagon up SCoug and let's see where it goes. It's a good wagon on a scummy player.

[SerialClergyman]

*sets alarm*

ZzzzZzzz

[SerialClergyman]

At the moment, I'm sticking in the mud. Compromise lynches are what has fucked up this town and I'm feeling very good about my read. We need more activity from the group at large to get any lynch ON SCUM. If we have say 8/12 active then chances are the only lynch we will ever achieve will be a lynch on town, because we can have scum support for that lynch.

So chances are I will not be voting anyone who smells like a policy lynch today ever.

However, to answer your question, I've played with Nikanor before and he wasn't acting like a jackass, so I'd love an explanation for his behaviour and would probably look in that direction. If I was looking at a more active person lynch, Spyrex would be up there, and you'd get a glare, but you don't quite fit as much as Spyrex does.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, xth attempt to kick the town into action.

I was surprised I wasn't killed yesterday. People thought I had a townie ring and I thought I was pointing due scum. So why am I not slain?

Because the scum had bigger fish to fry - killing the SK. If Spyrex was scum he'd be pushing for a NK of MSH, and even if he isn't, the power with which he pushed that case would make any scum think that SK-MSH was possible.

Hence why I'm pretty sure the flavour is pointing towards the kill hitting MSH. It just makes more sense. I don't see ANY reason for the SK to kill him.

Now - SCoug is in a tough position. He knows I'm going to come at him, he knows he can't kill me. So what's the first thing he does at the start of the day? Come at me, hard. Straight up cast suspicion on me and try to undermine my case from the get go.

This all explains
- why I was and continue to be so ardent about who killed who
- why I was quiet at the start of the day before laying into SCoug (to see if he'd move in first)
- what I was being secretive about in my conversation with Spyrex earlier.
- why I was so skeptical of SCoug's explanation about not attacking me at the end of yesterday (posting 3 minutes before my explanation of the hammer but not attacking me after that until the next day. The difference was that he had talked to his scumbuddies, realised I wasn't going to be killed so knew he had to come out swinging.)

This is my understanding of the game so far and I'm pretty confident in it. I continue to urge votes on SCoug so we can get a wagon up and test some of this stuff out.

This game needs some action so please, please, please lets give it some.

Vote StrangerCoug

[SerialClergyman]

It's not so much that he got overruled, but that the scum group as a whole would decide that killing the SK is more importnat than killing the thorn in their side.

I am still developing my theories. I'm most sure about SCoug. I don't know about Spy, I have trouble reading him. I think it's entirely possible that Spy is town ad others were using his case against MSH to make the decision to kill him.

It also explains why Spy, who has been shooting down almost all of my ideas and theories, readily agreed with my brief case on you yesterday.

However I'm just not sure enough, and I did have a negative read of you yesterday., The fact that you and Spy are going at each other is greatly unnerving and I'm not sure how to read it.

I get that saying no compromise is a bit of a dickish thing to do and I know other people have to compromise in order to get on my wagon but I feel like cashing in some of the credit for being active, scumhunting and coming up with plausible theories. I'm not saying noone else is but the game is pretty stagnant and to be honest I'd be over the moon with even lazy town bandwagon whoever type votes just to get things rolling.

I'm not voting Nikanor today. He is just too flat out likely to be a VT acting like a retard for the hell of it.

I might vote for Spyrex if it caused some action, but I don't know.

This is hard for me as well, and this may seem silly, but it's hard for me because I fucked up Hambargarz's game hard. It's my only loss on the site and I essentially singlehandedly lost it for my team. I haven't played with many of the people from that game since and I get really self-conscious about it. So for me to come here, in front of you and GO ALL OUT TO PUSH A CASE on someone else who was in that game is seriously freaking me out. I would have preferred to push on just about anyone else, but that's the person I'm most sure on and so it goes. So now I've taken the plunge, and I've done the hard yards, I sort of want to see it through. Does that make sense?

[SerialClergyman]

I'd point out that literally every other game I've played on the site has been much better and I've changed playstyle significantly (no big PBPA cases you may have noticed) but I totally accept that you've got that meta of me and I also accept that's where I'll be staying for a while.

You also saw me in Scigatt's game though, so you know I've changed fairly significantly, and I picked up on bigmc on D1 there.

[SerialClergyman]

Took me a mere hour and 15 minutes to read 15 pages. I'm falling in love with this game all over again.

It's absolutely thrilling reliving everything all over again: the glorious charge of the 12KeyBlade and Nikanor wagons, Toro's conquest to vanquish WarWound, the ability to relish in scumlists that were made by now confirmed town, and reliving how much of a floundering goddamn idiot I was back in those pages. The interactions that are becoming slowly more and more obvious the further back they are, and I already feel myself making a world of progress in analyzing what I thought were rather complex reactions.

Ohh... so good. I gotta do homework, but I can't wait to get back to this.

Enthusiasm is shit hot. Get it done!

[SerialClergyman]

<3 semioldguy.

Fire up lads! We have a fine mod, a fine player list, lets make this a good game!

[SerialClergyman]

Sotty - you think I'm your number one scum suspect because I wasn't voting him?

In response to your criticism, I can only say that at the start of the day I deliberately didn't vote him because I wanted to see if he'd come after me when I saw I wasn't NKed. You can see my reasoning for that when you see my theory on why who killed who is important.

But aside from that, I just hadn't gotten around to voting him. Did you think that I wouldn't be linked to a SCoug lynch? Despite pushing it for two full days? Was my plan to say 'But I didn't even vote him!' when he townflipped?

That conclusion is utterly bizarre.

Why the fuck does everyone think I'm town? People NEVER think I'm town. *looks gift horse in mouth*

[SerialClergyman]

Look, I can only shrug. If you find it scummy, you find it scummy. You've seen me play as scum, and I imagine based on that game it's not a meta point.

So if you find it scummy good luck to you, I suppose.

What did you actually think about the case?

[SerialClergyman]

Zazie was his normal lurky self.

a)

his

her
b) wut??

[SerialClergyman]

Zazie used to be incredibly active and a girl. See webcomic wars and emerald mafia in my wiki. I'm 98% sure that despite the gender symbol she remains female, the activity is wierd though. If I wasn't on my phone I'd go meta her.

[SerialClergyman]

I did anyway. See the average of over 14 posts per day and recent play like in this game http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, I'll bow to what appears to be a much more informed opinion than mine.

[SerialClergyman]

I've played with Nikanor in Commie mafia, Kreriov in near-vanilla mafia and welcome to hambargarz, Col Cathart in commie mafia, Sotty7 in Webcomic Wars (and she was killed n0 in Emerlad mafia), with StrangerCoug in Hambargarz and Spy's ongoing game, with Spyrex in Dark Goma mafia and Emerald mafia and MSH in Hambargarz. I've played briefly with Dramonic in Percy's ongoing.

Gotta run, apologies to anyone I've missed.

[SerialClergyman]

You've got five picks for scum with ten alive?

It all depends on cougs flip.

[SerialClergyman]

What do you mean by that, spyrex? In relation to the scoug wagon?

[SerialClergyman]

Why? What's wrong with expanding on his reasons for voting Scoug?

[SerialClergyman]

When you're about to recieve crucial information there's a limited amount to talk about.

How sure are you we're wrong, Spyrex? What's the chances of him flipping town?

[SerialClergyman]

What I don't like is my huge rant on pushing SCoug for days without any support except Nikanor suddenly turned into a deadline bandwagon. But the general apathy is weird, yes.

Spyrex acts above like he already knows the flip, which is what I was trying to question him on in a roundabout way.

[SerialClergyman]

I think this wagon switch is bizzare. I'm prepared to eat my words if he flips scum, but this drastic change of direction makes me continue to think that SCoug is scum. I'm curious if a VT claim is enough to unvote what claim WOULDN'T be enough to unvote. If it gives you a gut town read that's one thing, but using it as some form of logical reason to not vote someone is not a reasonable suggestion.

Out of this sudden switch I point the finger at KoC as being the most scummy on gut. My vote's not changing.

[SerialClergyman]

If I had the power to knock off anyone I liked I'd take out Spyrex, SCoug, KoC, Grimmy. Maybe a couple of others if my gun hadn't jammed by then. Just so there's a record.

Now I'm off to bed.

[SerialClergyman]

*if only

[SerialClergyman]

Drowned is different-but-similar to choked etc. Don't have a clue why the mafia would kill coug so perhaps I was wrong about that too.

Why did the wagon get pushed off a VT at the last minute?

[SerialClergyman]

^^ Excellent posting.

Spyrex shoots up the likely to be town list after correctly calling me vfs SCoug town vs town and discouraging both of us. (unlikely for SK, VERY unlikely for scum.)

I thought that Iguana might have had a town read on me, but then I found a post on page 9 (therefore D1) that suggested WarWound (my replacement) was top of her town list. So she had a town read on me before she used an investigation and I don't think she used one on me.

I think that post has toro more likely to be a guilty personally. Thingsl ike this:

I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely

I can't explain that if it's not a breadcrumb.

She says this D1:

No... 12kb is actually comitting scumtells. Toro just insnt being overlyhelpful.

If I put in a category between the two, he would be there alone. Im not going to vote anyone I lean town though, they would be my 'protect as doctor' list with SB/WW getting the bodyguard status. I dont want to go into scummy/cop too much, since cop should be checking null to gut read players who most of the town has as null. I guess you can say vig all slight scummy players.

Spent a while looking at lurkers, hoping they can give me something.

I actually came out of it liking Grimmy for town, there were some posts in there that really are just town in nature, one of those small things that is completely unneccesary and damaging to scum.

Imo this is pretty incontrovertible Grimmy = confirmed town.

I see Toro is added to the replacement list. I would almost be fine lynching him today due to his insistance on the WW lynch to an extent where he never commented on anything else, mafia flip from him would not surprise me at all. Not quite sure its in the intrest of the town as a whole to lynch him today over just that. Needless to say WW(SCl) is still town given my read from day one.

Vote Yabba

To open the day though, a good spot to start the day

Given the lack of any other crumb, and the lack of expansion on the yabba case, I think she had a guilty on toro here but couldn't push the lynch due to him needing a replacement.

I think yabba is the best bet I can explain in an acceptable manner. If I could just open fire, I would pass him up for super gut Toro without question. Im going to go with what I can get done safely today, although if people are down for a Toro lynch im not even going to hesitate to go along.

This confirms it.

Yeah ive been slacking. Was hopinh to find a way to get Toro auto-lynched but cant put it in words im happy with.

Xtra confirmed.

I would still like to lynch Yabba, but I have run out of convincing time
I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely
I wouldnt be against a Nik lynch too much

Again.

So, unless anyone has anythign to say, I'm thinking Sotty7 is definitely the lynch. I also think the two investigations we have is Grimmy town and Sotty guilty.

vote Sotty7

[SerialClergyman]

Actually.. maybe I was overly kind to Spyrex above.. Much as I love you buddy, I know how much you search for breadcrumbs and I don't know how you could end up with a vote on anyone other than Sotty. ><

MAKE ME LOVE YOU SPYREX!

[SerialClergyman]

Did you not see the part I wrote about her first investigation? I'm sure it's Grimmy-town.

D1 she talks about the sort of people she is going to investigate, scummyish lurkers who town consider null.
D2 first post she says she was looking at some lurkers and something snapped out about Grimmy being town. She never waivers from this.

If she had a different investigation on D2, why wasn't she pushing it or saying anything about it?

AFAIK, she has 2 investigations, first one on Grimmy and second one on Sotty. If you're going to say that you think she has 2 scum investigations, give me any indication on which day she got it and why.

[SerialClergyman]

So what were you agreeing with when you said ACTUALLY, yea?

[SerialClergyman]

I'm trying so hard to love you, Spyrex

[SerialClergyman]

Also, KoC - where's your vote?

[SerialClergyman]

lol I know, I know. It's just messy. With about 10 seconds more thought you could have just voted Toro and we'd be bestest friends. With 10 seconds more writing you could have explained that when you kept saying both you didn't mean there was a guilty on both. Do you know what I mean? Just little red flags where I don't understand your thought process.

But for all I know yabba is scum and I'm making a mountain out of a molehill so I'm going to relax and go back to encouraging people to vote for Sotty.

MOAR SOTTY VOTES PLEASE.

[SerialClergyman]

@Iguana:

I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely

What does this mean?

Even if I find my reasoning, I dont think I can swing it in time, and actually have a better chance of stopping any lynch from happening. Im convinced its the right lynch, but im also convinced its just not happening.

The thing is, you never even

tried

. Not once. And now you are sheeping.

Mentally I tried but never pulled it off. Im starting to think I can articulate it, but it would pull people off the SCoug wagon, and I dont think enough people would post by deadline to make it a successful lynch. Assuming im alive, tomorrow I will put my reasoning first post since no doubt I will have time.

Arg. There's NO WAY the investigation was on ANYONE but Toro. She even says in this passage of play that she'll explain her reasoning in the first post tomorrow - eg, claim.

The reason why she didn't vote him or push him other than the zillions of times on D2 she said she was sure he was scum for 'gut' reasons was because of what I bolded above, she didn't think there was a realistic chance we'd all jump on the wagon. It would have looked really obvious for the cop to try to push a wagon on someone who wasn't there and was replacing. There would be natural resistance to doing it from town and the scum would easily work out she was the cop.

These comments specifically indicate she has a guilty of Toro over Yabba. They are impossible to explain any other way:

I think yabba is the best bet I can explain in an acceptable manner. If I could just open fire, I would pass him up for super gut Toro without question.

Im going to go with what I can get done safely today, although if people are down for a Toro lynch im not even going to hesitate to go along.

Well... 12kb is in my top 5 still (goes toro, yabba, you/kre, CC). Hyl is dead. Skitzer I have mellowed a bit on, people made good arguements that he is town.

I would still

like

to lynch Yabba, but I have run out of convincing time
I would still

love

to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely
I wouldnt be against a Nik lynch too much

All three of those quotes indicate her most suspected person is Toro.

But her posts and style of investigation make it obvious who she was investigating. She specifically told us on D1 that she'd be investigating slightly scummy lurkers. She did that once with Grimmy. It makes pure sense she's pick Toro as her N2 investigation.

Look at her mentions of the player. She quotes one of his posts on Oct 25, ISO post 29. The next time she mentions him is Dec 7, Iso post 72. 6 weeks and 50 of her own posts have gone by, probably 300+ game posts without her even mentioning his name and then suddenly in the first post of D3 she starts banging on about how she'd totally lynch him.

THIS IS NOT A COINCIDENCE. Toro/Sotty7 ARE SCUM.

There should be NO other lynch target today.

[SerialClergyman]

Vote col cathart

I think he's almost certainly scum. Spyrex yabba vote is fail. *glares*

Case to come depending on time.

[SerialClergyman]

He couldn't find a cop breadcrumb? Look at his interactions with Anti-hero/12kb.

Yabba seems pretty reasonable and without an investigation all we have from Iguana is a genuine scumhunting attempt. There was also a push to move the supposed investigation OFF of Toro and ONTO Yabba which indicates to me he's not likely scum.

[SerialClergyman]

not yabba, col cath. Look at Col's intreractions with 12kb and anti.

Then in terms of yabba, the fact that scum (kreirov) tried to say we should lynch yabba instead of toro makes me think yabba town. If he was going to bus based on crumb, why not just bus obvious crumb?

[SerialClergyman]

Arg. I now attempt to stab heli through the Internet. Who is scum?

[SerialClergyman]

I'm drastically low on motivation for this game. I went through and started quoting Col Cath, but I don't know.. I'm not that convinced. I'm pretty sure there was more scum effort to derail the cop's results yesterday, and I can't believe he would go through and not find anything at all to comment on. The rest stems from that I think, could jsut be confirmation bias.

Could we get a bit of a roll call? Please post if you're around, maybe with the name of the person you most suspect, just on gut if you aren't prepared to give reasons, and we'll go from there.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, after checking Iguana in ISO, my wild guess is, she never actually hit any scum with her investigation, or she's hiding that breadcrumb really well.

Gonna do some re-read.

I just do not know what to think right now. Serial was pushing the Coug wagon. SpyreX basically pushed the Amished wagon. Like CC I see no breadcrumbs from Iguana. Its more who Iguana DIDN'T want a wagon on, but even there I see nothing strong enough to say Iguana definitely didn't want to vote for that person. It really seems more like Iguana liked a case better and not that she new the competing wagon was bogus. Nikanor jumped on the Amished wagon late, but why do that when the Coug wagon was going strong? About the only thing that makes sense to me right now is that BOTH SpyreX and Serial are scum. They pushed competing wagons on innocents. They argued way to much about which kill was which. I realize this is a bit speculative, but it does make sense. Because it is speculative, I am going with my first and best read of the game so far and...

Vote: SpyreX

Multiple thoughts here:

First off, SK is OBVIOUSLY going to kill a scum suspect at this stage of the game. That would be Coug. So drowning and the like is their thing.

Also, here are Iguana's first posts after each subsequent Day began.

Spent a while looking at lurkers, hoping they can give me something.

I actually came out of it liking Grimmy for town

, there were some posts in there that really are just town in nature, one of those small things that is completely unneccesary and damaging to scum. Still sort of like 12kb for town, there were some tells there, but information gleamed from that lynch is almost too much to pass up.

Zazie leans town too, around same area as 12kb given intent to change up wagons that were occuring, although it never passed so I cant give much of a point there.

Yank I dont like since he was for a bit active on other sections of the site, and I dont like Skitzer much at this point either, which is where my vote is headed once I get reasoning up.

And now D3...

I see Toro is added to the replacement list. I would almost be fine lynching him today due to his insistance on the WW lynch to an extent where he never commented on anything else,

mafia flip from him would not surprise me at all

. Not quite sure its in the intrest of the town as a whole to lynch him today over just that. Needless to say WW(SCl) is still town given my read from day one.

Vote Yabba

To open the day though, a good spot to start the day

She also later adds, "I want to lynch Toro, but I can't word that safely."

My guess: she got inno and then guilty on Blast and then Toro, respectively. I'm gonna run with it, and hope that Iguana isn't pounding her head into the desk reading this.

Vote: Sotty7

Woosh goes the trolley.

Krer is probably scum. However, I'm almost positive Iguana had a guilty - and I find it even funnier considering this page and who has posted on it.

Vote: Yabba

I think there's at least one scum between Col and Spyrex. Possibly both are scum. I think Yabba is and continues to be the scum's attempt to use the authority of the cop to push the lynch away from toro/anyone else. I think Yabba has been spot on since the cop died and has given me no scummy vibes at all. Kreirov did not know he was going to flip, so his last minute attempts to push onto yabba and question it even as toro was getting hammered was surely setup work for the next day.

But at least SPyrex's post reads like he's trying to find a breadcrumb. I can't see a townie going and looking for crumbs and finding absolutely nothing at all. There was MORE than enough to find the specific investigations, or at least have a shot at what they are.

Spy, I'm flat out against a yabba lynch. Next suspect?

[SerialClergyman]

Bear in mind 12KB is Kreirov, ie scum.

In other news: I have a weird feeling, that several people are hopping KB's wagon, because it's an easiest wagon around. Ok, fine, he didn't post anything useful at all, but also he didn't post ANYTHING in like... Week? Meanwhile, when there are other things to discuss, some people, like Blastinus or Foilist are just saying 'Yeah, KB is not saying anything, let's lynch him'. KB doesn't look like a lurker IMO. He looks like a main candidate for a replacement.

Personally, I'm willing to wait for his response when he'll be back, or his replacement, before judging anything in that matter. In the meantime, I advise everyone to observe, who's hopping on the easy wagon, because he have reasons, and who's hopping because it's easy.

Blast: It's interesting though, how you jumped 12KB wagon when it had already some people on it, for pretty weak reason, and now you jumped on zwet wagon, for reasons, because he plays like typical zwet (Here you have an example. He behaved exactly the same with 'why is xxx still alive' etc. etc. and he was a Doc), and not because of, for example, his slip, which SpyreX already covered with details.

Also, does anyone else looks suspicious to you?

(This is interesting not just due to the semi-defense of 12kb but also because Col said previous to this zwet was his second biggest suspect, and ends up voting zwet before the end of the day).

In his summary post:

12KB/Antihero - Complete null. One was inactive and unhelpful. The second one made a decent start and disappeared as well. Last post by him was made whooping 11 days ago. Mod, please prod or replace Antihero

Toro - Strong town read, although he IMO spends too much time on WarWound, especially when he's already sure, WW is scum. If so, you can go look for his partners.

Stranger: Ok, now I'm curious. You're mentioning Hyl and Flava for following the 12KB wagon. Blastinus also did it, and IMO in much worse manner than others. And yet, you didn't mention it. In fact, you mention him only once during your whole post, but it's enough to place him on 'neutral' list. It looks weird to me. Like you want to have clear path to either oppose ar approve his possible lynch in the future (via stating he's neutral), but not brining any possible arguments against him, even if you can (I assume, you spotted that as well, if you already looked at people on 12KB wagon). Care to expand your point of view on Blast?

I could keep going, but I actually feel this is more confirmation bias than genuine cases. I'm pretty sure that most players would have wrongness in their past (cough me cough)

I just cannot htink of a single issue that Col was right on. He switched to zwet early, he voted saber during saber's meltdown, he joined the wagon on amished despite earlier saying that strangercoug was a fairly strong suspect of his. He couldn't find a breadcrumb from Iguana, and then today he's pushing the Yabba lynch that Kreirov worked hard to set up yesterday.

Of course, Spyrex reads pretty similar in all those counts, but there are a couple of notable exceptions. He thought Kreirov was scum and was called out as scum BY Kreirov. He was also against the SCoug lynch. I think it's entirely likely he could do both of those things and be scum, but it's more than enough to make me prefer Col at the moment.

Having said all that, input is awesome. Nikanor has been really odd all game, KoC has been a non-contributor, Grimmy is barely here - most of the people I'm depending on seem very distant.

[SerialClergyman]

I just don't agree with that assessment at all. Bust out some wagon analysis if you like, but to me I have two scumbags downplaying an investigation, and Col and you were both deflecting it away, the same way Kreirov did. In fact, you both started wagon on Yabba the next day, which seems to me to be the plan of the scum since yesterday.

Also, you listed Grimmy in with your mafia suspects even though I'm 99% sure that he's got an innocent on him.

I think I'm now officially up for a Spyrex lynch too.

[SerialClergyman]

Grimmy - Its time for the lurker callout. What I've seen I got ok vibes from but the number of will post later posts has the cackles on the rise. I'd lean harder on SK than mafia but..

That doesn't say 'CAN ONLY BE THE SK DUE TO AN INVESTIGATION', does it?

[SerialClergyman]

Looking at that (and thanks for the effort, that's fantastic) what do you think about Heliograph scum?

[SerialClergyman]

Reading what you wrote, it looks like you didn't even think about the innocent verdict, that's what I didn't like about it. Maybe that's just how you write, but it stuck out to me.

[SerialClergyman]

I'd love people to post their suspects please. A list of 2 or 3 would be excellent. I think we have enough info to crack it, we just need some seirous participation

[SerialClergyman]

I agree with Spyrex. I'm pretty sure Nikanor isn't mafia.

I'm happy with either a Helio lynch or a CC lynch. Anyone keen to join me on either?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry Nul, Grimmy has roughly zero chance of being mafia, even if he's possibly the SK.

Confirm vote: Null

[SerialClergyman]

I'm going to have limited access to mafia for a day or two, so I'll probably only be able to make small mobile posts, not large keyboard posts. (Cue joy)

[SerialClergyman]

FINISH HIM

Up, up, down, left, down, left high punch.

SPIREXHAMMARALITY

[SerialClergyman]

Lol @ Heilo after the fact hammer.

We all cheer and run outside to the lynchin' post, Nul screaming for his life in one last futuile gesture, the children weeping, the ropw swaying slightly in the breeze but looking coldly resolute in anticipation of it's grisly task.

And Heilo is carefully posting his vote into the container and wondering where everyone went.

[SerialClergyman]

Spyrex, why ignore KoC in your scum possibilities?

[SerialClergyman]

I spent the whole game fighting my scum read on Spyrex because I like playing with him.

<---- played.

Still, it was a very fun game and the scum played well. I had some bad reads and some good ones. Well played kids.