Open 201 - Fire & Ice Mafia ~Over~

[Kmd4390]

confirm.

Mod, can we get the setup posted somewhere?

Absolutely.

Setup

7 townies

2 fire

2 ice

1 doc

[Kmd4390]

Wait, I'm in a game with Farside?





...



Sweet.

[Kmd4390]

Votecount 1.1 (As of Post 35)

DTMaster -2- kmd4390, SaintKerrigan

Not voting: Everyone else

xofelf and Nicodemus each have 36 hours left before I search for a replacement

---

Vote DTMaster

Not a joke vote.

[Kmd4390]

If it's not a joke vote, are you willing to state your reasoning?

What do you think my reasoning is?

[Kmd4390]

His meta has nothing to do with it.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

I agree with Saint.

Vote mavsfan

You confirmed after the day started, but didn't add anything else.

I'd appreciate an explanation from Slaxx for the same thing.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm.

Two deaths, doc learns nothing. Their target wasn't targeted by scum, so no info.

One death, doc successfully protected or scum targeted the same player as the doc and that player was scum so the kill didn't go through. Doc still learns nothing, but it's not due to the rule because it would be the same in any other game.

No deaths, basically anything could have happened.

The doc is basically useless information-wise in this game. The only thing the doc can do is maybe stop a kill, but we won't learn anything from it.

Let's not let this discussion drag out though. It distracts from scumhunting.

[Kmd4390]

I don't understand what you are saying.

[Kmd4390]

Pom, it looked like he was looking at things that are more important to scum than to town, but after his explanation, I see I was mistaken.

Wait, we know which scum group made which kill?

[Kmd4390]

Hmm ok. That could be helpful then. Maybe.

[Kmd4390]

and i agree that setup speculation really doesn't get you anywheres... particularly with a mod like CSL(and i mean that in the best possible way)

Um. Open game. The Mod has nothing to do with it.

@KMD
1. If both scum hit the same target, nothing happens according to that quote. So there is more then one explanation for why there could be a failed kill. Its more beneficial for scum to try and get that person lynched since it could be the opposing scum faction.

Right, so the doc is useless.

DTM, I get confused when you refer to SaintKerrigan as Sarah.

Same here.. Took me a while to even figure out that was who he meant.

------------------

Hmm. We need to start talking about who is scum.

farside22 - Leaning town. Went back to see what I had on DT. Didn't see any problems, so saw my vote as weak. Voted me. The rest has been doc discussion, but looks like it's coming from a town point of view.

xofelf - Not sure at all. Basically "is here" and that's all we get. I'll have a better read on her later. I know xofelf IRL and have played quite a few games with her.

SaintKerrigan -Said he saw what I did on DT. I believe him because he unvoted after DT explained. The Farside vote looks like a way to lead us away from the doc distraction. Instinct wants to say town, but then again we have multiple scum groups and scum can't kill other scum, so scum will scumhunt just like town. I'm gonna call this one a slight town read.

kmd4390 - Obvtown

Pomegranate -Saw my serious vote and asked for reasoning. Didn't see what I was looking at on DT. Leaning town because of the hesitance to just follow my vote, which she acknowledged.

TheLonging - lol, said he wouldn't be around, but has been anyway. Has done nothing aside from contribute to the doc discussion. Maybe scum?

animorpherv1 -Confirmed and then gave and obvious piece of advice. Scum read.

Slaxx -Confirmed after the game's start. Explained why, saw basically just setup discussion, and random voted. I actually like that move. Town read.

Gheb -*Shrug*

mavsfan41 -Still waiting to see why he confirmed after the game started and didn't give us anything else. Scum read.

DTMaster -I'm really liking DT so far.

The Quintastic One -A lot of talking, but really hasn't said a thing yet. Scum read.

To recap, here's my scumlist (Towniest at top, scummiest at bottom):
Confirmed town:
Kmd

Leaning town:
Farside
DT
Slaxx
Saint
Pom

No read:
xofelf
Gheb

Maybe scum?:
TheLonging

Scum read:
TQO
Animorph
mavsfan

-----------------------

K, dinner time. I want comments either on my list or people's own opinions.

[Kmd4390]

I don't see why mavsfan and xofelf are in different categories.

It's typical of xofelf when she's busy at the beginning of a game to post a "hey, I'm here. Glanced over some things. Here's my quick opinion that doesn't say much. Another post some other time" regardless of alignment. I'll be able to read her once she gives us content. Mavs showed up and confirmed without offering anything and I'm not sure why. My opinion may change once I get a response from him.

----------------

Post 79 (Gheb) is a lot of words and all about stuff that I don't want to talk about anyway.

---------------

Gheb, in response to Post 90, um maybe so I can try and convince the rest of the town to lynch the right players?

As far as town reads, meh, scum aren't going to say "well Kmd says X is town, so let's not kill them" unless the next day is LYLO. Early in the game, I don't see the problem.

------------

Longing, we didn't really get an RVS because of the setup discussion. Random voting is more productive than the setup discussion. It gets us on the right track.

What gave you the impression that it's "long after RVS"?

------------

CSL, so I know I'm not breaking your rule in the future, can you define for me what the difference is between lurking and active lurking?

-------------

Animorph, you told the doc not to claim if they think they successfully protected a player. Any competent doc wouldn't do that in the first place. It was your only content post at the time and basically said nothing. You're avoiding contributing to any kind of discussion and I find that scummy.

-------------

Farside, yeah, town has to lynch successfully 4 times and the doc has lost a lot of power. These rules make a town win very difficult. It's ok though. I have faith in this player list.

[Kmd4390]

As far as town reads, meh, scum aren't going to say "well Kmd says X is town, so let's not kill them" unless the next day is LYLO. Early in the game, I don't see the problem.

That's not what I'm getting at.
You say "hey, I think player X is town!" Does town benefit from that statement at all in terms of scumhunting? Not really. Mafia however does benefit from that information. You basically tell everybody in the game "hey, I trust this guy!". By saying that you paint a huge target for the mafia on that player's back. Why would you do that to a player that you think is town? You want to keep these guys around for as long as possible.

You don't really dispute my point here that scum aren't looking at just MY opinions. I'm telling you I have reads on players and what they are. If someone disagrees, and gives me a good reason why, we debate it and get a more clear opinion. There is no negative side to giving an opinion about a player.

--------------------

Reading the post where Farside votes Saint, and Saint's reaction, I can see Saint as scum.

-------------------

Animorph, if you aren't seeing it, I don't know what to tell you. No doc, whether they've been doc before or not, should be coming out of Night 1 and saying "OMG GUYS IM THE DOC AND I DID THIS LAST NIGHT". It should never happen, so advising against such actions seems pointless.

------------------

Slaxx, can you elaborare on why you think Pom is scum?

------------------

Mavs post 107 convinces me of absolutely nothing positive about Mav. I think he's scum. I'm not happy with his response. I want him to hang today.

-----------------

Pom, questions are ok depending on how it's done. Specifically RVS vs RQS, I don't use either. I very rarely random vote. I look for something scummy, no matter how small, and attack it. Then I take that player's actions and everyone else's reaction to it and formulate an opinion on everyone else as well.

-----------------

CSL, in 112, makes a great case against Mav. I am now convinced that he's scum.

[Kmd4390]

The Mavs lynch IS a lurker lynch. But it's not "hey, let's pick a random lurker and lynch them". It's "he's scummy and his lurking is part of the reasoning behind that".

[Kmd4390]

Pom, questions are ok depending on how it's done. Specifically RVS vs RQS, I don't use either. I very rarely random vote. I look for something scummy, no matter how small, and attack it. Then I take that player's actions and everyone else's reaction to it and formulate an opinion on everyone else as well.

But I recall in that game where we were scum together with KScope (Mini 844, was it?), you voted me based on something small, and bussed me until it brought about you lynch (and me being NKed). Though that is the only meta I have of you, it doesn't put you tactic in good light.

Right. It's my early-game playstyle. This is true regardless of my alignment.

---------------

Farside is looking very townie. Gayle, I'm not too sure on right now. I'll have to think about that one and come back to it. (edit: yeah, Gayle is scummy)

I would then ask you to prove to me that he was refusing to post in this game.

CSL said Mavs was active lurking. A Mod's word is almost always enough evidence.

-----------------

Unvote, Vote Gayle

cuz it's gonna be a fun bandwagon and I don't want to miss it.

[Kmd4390]

No explanation needed. I saw it the first time and you didn't convince me I was wrong.

[Kmd4390]

You are at least going to at least explain what you find scummy, correct? You are going to just say "Gayle is scummy, and didn't convince me otherwise" are you?

Well, it still has the new bandwagon smell, so I'm taking it for a test drive. Gotta say I like the way it handles so far.

[Kmd4390]

Why are Farside and DT scummy?

Also, from my initial read of TQO, I have no reason to suspect that he is town.

[Kmd4390]

In other words, I am scummy but you haven't bothered read my posts. 'kay, got it.

I've read your posts. I want you to summarize some opinions because I'm not coming to the same conclusion.

You're very defensive. I think my pressure vote caught me some scum.

Farside, my point is that

Mavsfan's motives cannot be known

.

Nobody's motives are known until they flip.

[Kmd4390]

Gayle, placing the vote was enough to make you get all defensive. I think it served it's purpose.

[Kmd4390]

Gayle, placing the vote was enough to make you get all defensive. I think it served it's purpose.

KMD, if asking you to explain yourself is "defensive", then yes your vote caused me to become terribly defensive.

The sarcasm came off defensive. I just looked back and honestly, that's the only post I see it in. Still, it definitely looks that way. Also, your suspects are the players who are voting you.

[Kmd4390]

mavsfan

By the way, fixed.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, Gayle, that's fair. You're right.

[Kmd4390]

I lol how everyone is voting Gayle for essentially saying mavs is going to get replaced.

Who is voting him for that?

[Kmd4390]

I lol how everyone is voting Gayle for essentially saying mavs is going to get replaced.

Who is voting him for that?

That's what it looks like to me.

Give me names. Who, specifically, is voting for that reason?

[Kmd4390]

CSL's 278 has me wondering if we are on the wrong track with Gayle...

-----------------

281...yeah..

Unvote

---------------

Hmm. Well, our wagon reached 4. 12 players in the game. 4 are scum. That's 25% of the players being scum. Another 25% on the wagon. I'm gonna say decent, not great, but decent odds of one scum on it.

Vote Pom

since I have town reads on the other 2, and know myself to be town. Also, her posts are kinda scummy.

Anyone who votes Pom gets cookies.

[Kmd4390]

I could lynch Animorph if people want to do that.

[Kmd4390]

Sanhora, I saw valid reasoning in the wagon and decided to test the waters. I saw scummy reactions, but the Mod's posts make me think I was wrong.

Sorry for the math fail. *Shrug*

[Kmd4390]

Sanhora, my opinion on Pom is that she is scummy.

CSL told us we were on the wrong track, so I unvoted.

---------------

Gayle,, I voted you to add pressure and get a reaction. I unvoted because the Mod said we were wrong.

-Votes DTM saying it was not a joke vote. When asked about his reasoning he responds "What do you think my reasoning is?"
-Votes Mavsfan because "[Mavsfan] confirmed after the day started, but didn't add anything else."
-Votes Gayle because "cuz it's gonna be a fun bandwagon and I don't want to miss it.". When asked about his reasoning
he responds "Well, it still has the new bandwagon smell, so I'm taking it for a test drive. Gotta say I like the way it handles so far.".
-Unvotes Gayle because "[the mod] has me wondering if we are on the wrong track with Gayle... "
-Votes Pom because "I have town reads on the other 2, and know myself to be town. Also, her posts are kinda scummy."
-He is also willing to lynch animorph "if people want to do that".

Please notice that every time there is a bandwagon, he is there.

-Yes. I wanted other people to look at DT's post because it gets more reactions than simply laying out the reason.
-Your point?
-Your point?
-And?
-Yep.
-Right.

Ok, is this supposed to be a case or just a summary of my play?

------------------

Farside, DT seemed to be pointing something out that didn't really matter to town. He explained though and I was wrong.

[Kmd4390]

Ok. So Gayle and Farside are town.

---------------

Gayle, I know. Normally, I am better at getting solid reads. So far, I don't have anyone who I think is obvscum and has to die immediately. So the scum are either lurkers who are doing nothing or they are doing a good job of looking for the other scum team.

Unvote

because Pom doesn't fit into either of those categories.

Vote Animorph

. Deadline coming up and he's lurking and has a wagon on him.

On Animorph:
-Made that post about telling a doc not to claim on Day 2. Pointless filler.
-Continued with the pointless discussion while adding nothing else to the game.
-------This shows that he was around and could have contributed, but chose not to. T
---------------This is scummier than simply not being around.
-Votes Farside for setup talk.
--------Animorph, why is that scummy?
----------------How had your play up to that point been any more protown?
-That WCS thing looks like more filler.
-Compares Mavs to xofelf and calls it a policy lynch.
-------Maybe a Mavs scumbuddy?
-Defends Gayle. Specifically against Farside.

Meh. I'm still not too sure on this, but it seems better than anything else I can find.

[Kmd4390]

Scum Team 1: Farside + KMD

Wait, I'm in a game with Farside?
...
Sweet.

Try again. If we were scum together, I'd have known it when I got my Role PM.

----------------

Farside, you usually see me in games where I am more confident in my reads. Right now, I'm not. So I'm not playing how I normally do. And you know my scum meta too. I don't take a backseat as scum.

---------------

Gheb, you are after a lurker lynch and pick Sanhora??? Why?

--------------

Pom, you don't think scum defend scummy town? I do it all the time.

[Kmd4390]

Fair enough. It's a weak point, but I don't have a stronger scum read on anyone...

[Kmd4390]

Yeah. If I was scum with Farside, I would have seen so in my Role PM. Clearly, you can see that I didn't know when I made that post that Farside was in this game. The only way I am scum with Farside is if I made that post just so I could make this point later.

[Kmd4390]

Slaxx, who used caps? By the way, I disagree with that stance. It adds emphasis, which can sometimes sway people in your direction. Yes, it's a manipulation tool, but even town can manipulate sometimes.

Also, I haven't given a "joke reason" for a vote at all in this game. But wishy washy opinions and weak opinions, yes, I've done that. I'm just not as sure about anyone as I'd like to be.

----------------

Gayle, no, it doesn't clear me. You're right. But it does show that Farside and I aren't scum together.

[Kmd4390]

As scum, I'm confident of my "reads". You know this. Yes, as town, I normally am too. I just have a game once in a while where I get stuck. This is one.

[Kmd4390]

K, well the modkill was retarded, but 3 obvtown deaths.

CSL's posts about waiting for an action, along with saying the same over AIM makes me think that at least one scum is a power lurker. Probably Animorph's buddy.

I think xofelf for Fire scum and Gheb/Jacob as Ice.

Actually, let me look at the lynch to find a more confident answer on Ice. Oh, cool, we never got an end of day vote count. Whatever, guess I'm sticking with my gut then.

Vote xofelf

[Kmd4390]

Actually, we were just kind of talking and he said he mentioned that he was waiting for another action. I don't think I picked up any less of a hint from his few overnight posts asking for said action.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. The only thing Slaxx really did is make a few comments about Pom then switch to Animorph. Worth nothing I think.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote xofelf, Vote TheLonging

Xofelf's last post looks like she's playing to her town meta.

[Kmd4390]

Gayle, going for a lurker. And yes, that post is the one that looks like typical town xofelf.

CSL, I did discuss it by PM.

[Kmd4390]

True. Didn't hurt anything though. It happened and can't be changed, so whatever. I'll shut up about it until postgame though.

[Kmd4390]

TheLonging, I am very sure that there is at least one lurkerscum, so that's the way I am going.

Gayle, xofelf tends to be very wishy washy and unsure of things as town.

[Kmd4390]

Haven't really gotten that far yet.

[Kmd4390]

I think that maybe we should stop discussing it because it's likely WIFOM. How 'bout that?

okay.. it was just something i noticed and figured i'd bring up.
[/quote]

Wow, this makes me want to rant about theory because WIFOM is

NOT BAD

. It is HOW WE CATCH SCUM. But I'm not gonna go into it because it's near impossible to change anyone's mind about that around here...

------------------

After we lynch TheLonging, remind me to make a case on Gheb.

[Kmd4390]

I can back it if you want. Just haven't yet.

[Kmd4390]

Pom, no, I didn't say Gayle was town because of any kind of defense. I said Gayle was town because the Mod basically said so.

I know xofelf IRL and have played several games with her.

Ok, I suck at finding scum this game. Doesn't make me scum. Even if I were scum, I'd be looking for the other scum group. Look at any game I've ever been scum with another scum group for evidence of this.

Ok, you know what, guys? I'm gonna end up claiming today with all of the suspicion around me, so might as well do it now instead of stalling and waiting for votes.

I'm the doc. Targeted DT last night.

[Kmd4390]

I'm not lying. I'll be dead tonight, so you should probably unvote.

[Kmd4390]

K, maybe Thursday. I'm too lazy right now and busy all day tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. TheLonging was on the Mavs wagon as well as my own, but not Animorph's. Interesting.

[Kmd4390]

Oh shit, I'm wrong. There's a lazy vote on Animorph there, but that's the only mention of Animorph in his entire post history. (Until after the lynch)

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, my bad. I corrected myself as soon as I found it.

My point is that up until that vote, you never once mentioned Animorph.

Also, what happened to this:

my 2nd choice for suspicious people are dtm for bandwagoning so much throughout the day

First, you call DT town, then you post this, and now I can't find any recent mention of DT. What are your thoughts on him and why? What made you consider him scummy after you had called him town, and why haven't you pushed that since?

[Kmd4390]

What is your opinion of him now? It sounds like you are saying he looked town at that time, but your post specifically called him your second suspect.

[Kmd4390]

So the only real suspects you have had have been players who have been widely suspected by others? And your point against DT was...?

[Kmd4390]

So is DT's bandwagoning scummy or not? What about your own?

[Kmd4390]

If not a suspect for scum, then a suspect for what?

If bandwagoning is a null tell, why was it a reason to suspect DT?

[Kmd4390]

One has to remember that there is two Mafia's, and that the WIFOM gets even more confusing.

However I am just going to go with my gut feeling

Vote: Gayle

Wait, what? No, really, what are you trying to say here?

Two scum teams. Yes, we know this.

WIFOM referring to what, specifically?

And the "gut" vote is fine, but what do you think about CSL's post that virtually cleared Farside and Gayle?

[Kmd4390]

inb4 omgus

OMGUS!

[Kmd4390]

Sig changed to avoid modkill. Sorry CSL.

[Kmd4390]

For suggesting CSL has cleared Gayle

Unvote, Vote:KMD

scum right here

Actually, seeing who he replaced, I already knew that.

Wanna lynch him? (Oh, you're already voting him. Heh)

Unvote, Vote Jacob

Wagon GOGOGO

[Kmd4390]

Remind me to read better tomorrow night if I get a chance to come online.

Jacob is a great lynch. Let's get two more votes.

[Kmd4390]

Remind me to read better tomorrow night if I get a chance to come online.

Jacob is a great lynch. Let's get two more votes.

I still don't like your play, regardless of whether you are town or not. I don't know if this is how you usually play but whatever.

I'm usually more confident in my reads. I'm starting to feel more confident, but I'm not going balls to the wall over anything just yet.

@DTMaster

The Reason why I am voting KMD, is that he survived the night, surley if someone has claimed Doctor at least one of the Mafia would have the brains to kill him?
As for no counter-claim, the doctor wants to survive, so counter-claiming someone who could be town or Mafia, is not fruitfull

Um, they haven't had the chance to kill me yet. I claimed today.

btw, CSL just confirmed Jacobscum.

Meh, hard to say on this one. I think he'd say that even if Jacob was town. The only thing he confirmed is that Jacob is non-doc because a doc claim may save him.

Wait. Maybe Jacob is town because scum could fakeclaim doc. CSL doesn't see Jacob not being lynched, meaning he won't claim doc, so he's town.

Damn.

Unvote, Vote Gheb

[Kmd4390]

Need a real read, but 568, Gayle is definitely town.

[Kmd4390]

/in for redo I guess.