Open 201 - Fire & Ice Mafia ~Over~

[Gheb]

Right, I'm the replacement. I've played plenty of Forummafia before and I know about the Fire & Ice set-up so it's all cool, no need to go easy on me or something :p

I'll read what happened so far and come up with something.

[Gheb]

I think it's OK if we have something more productive to talk about than random votes at this point. Even though I'm not a big fan of role speculation (or role's mechanics) discussion is being made, which is always a good start. As long as we make sure that Doc speculation doesn't dominate the whole day I don't see too big a problem. Just don't do stupid stuff like claiming or leaving too obvious breadcrumbs.

On that note I don't see where all these confusions are coming from and I will keep a close look at that and what the cause of said confusions are. The mechanics of the game pretty much confirm that the doc has no use as an investigator. There could always be a mafia cross-shot and with 4 mafia players there are realistic chances that at least one mafia faction gets hit during the night phase. Point is that as long as both mafia factions are in play there is no way to confirm a townie merely from a doc safe.

Please let's not make this more confusing or complicated than it has to be. The purpose of the doctor is to protect players, not to confirm townies (even if he has that ability under certain circumstances) and the somewhat different set-up doesn't change this fact in the slightest.

Although the mafia could use the doc with no kill and leading to WIFOM.

Doubt it. Keep in mind that each mafia faction does not only have the town as their enemy but also the opposing mafia party as well. An intentional misshot would be a pretty stupid thing to do in such a scenario especially since the WIFOM doesn't tip things in only one mafia party's favour but both of them in this case. By doing that one mafia party would also help the other mafia faction. Don't think they'd do that.

If the doc protects someone and a player dies. That player is either town or scum. However depending on if fire or ice killed one player it will at least confirm for the doc that the player they saved wasn't part of that mafia group.

I don't see how this is the case. Either I'm reading it wrong, it's worded poorly or it's flat-out wrong. Leaning the latter. Both mafia parties are immune to night kills as far as I'm aware, which means that a succesful doc safe wouldn't confirm anything. If I'm wrong you should re-write that part because it's confusing the hell out of me.

[Gheb]

KMD, why do you point out who you think is particularily scummy? If you are town it only gives the mafia an idea whom you trust and a better idea whom to kill toNight.

[Gheb]

Eh that was badly worded. I mean that you should keep your town reads for yourself, especially this eary. You do NOT want to give the mafia any information they don't have.

[Gheb]

As far as town reads, meh, scum aren't going to say "well Kmd says X is town, so let's not kill them" unless the next day is LYLO. Early in the game, I don't see the problem.

That's not what I'm getting at.
You say "hey, I think player X is town!" Does town benefit from that statement at all in terms of scumhunting? Not really. Mafia however does benefit from that information. You basically tell everybody in the game "hey, I trust this guy!". By saying that you paint a huge target for the mafia on that player's back. Why would you do that to a player that you think is town? You want to keep these guys around for as long as possible.

[Gheb]

I'm suspicious of people who didn't take part in discussion earlier and now complain about having reads on nobody - I don't quite buy it. Ignoring the fact that it's very safe for the mafia to play there should always be somebody who's more suspicious than other people. To be concrete mavsfan, xofelf and animorpherv stand out in this regard. Can somebody remind how saying stuff like "I'm waiting for real discussion to happen" or "I don't have reads on anyobe yet" is pro-town again?

I'm going to

Vote Slaxx

however for continuing his unexplained votes on Pome. What discussion do you expect to come out of that? Voting her again and hoping that "we get something going here" looks like a cop-out to feign activity. In context to your posts so far - most of them severely lacking content - this has me considering you stalling the game's progress by drawing attention to things that won't help us to scumhunt and disctract up from debateworthy issues at hand.

Gheb, what do you think of the site in general? Do you like our approach to scumhunting? (Bonus: You guessed it, why?)

It's the approach I am used to so yes, I like it. Starting off with random votes that leads to more substantial discussion - that's exactly how I expected it to happen. Only thing I have to get used to are the player's names but that shouldn't be a problem.

Now, here's a question for you: Is there a reason on why you ask these questions now of all times? Do you not agree that we already had some discussion going on that could've been fruitful? Do you felt that asking these question will be more helpful than what we have talked about before? (Bonus: why?)

[Gheb]

DTM, I think you gravely misjudged me. I am neither a newbie nor am I scared of hopping a bandwagon. I merely tried to create viable platforms for discussion after noticing that set-up speculation and random questions couldn't do as much.

To answer your question: In general placing a random vote isn't as suspicious as doing nothing at all. However, at a stage where attempts to

leave

the RVS are being made I find it more suspicious if somebody tried to oppose this process and that is exactly what Slaxx did in my eyes. Pounding an absolutely random vote without any reasoning at all (except that the game moderator seemed to not include it in the vote count earlier) looked more like a distraction point than anything else to me at that time.
What was impossible for me to know at that time (but I do know now) is the fact that Slaxx' random vote turned out to have created discussion directly related to scunhunting. Given that it looks like I have been wrong all the time but there was no way for me to know up until now. At this point it's fairly obvious that Slaxx' actions have more merit than what other people said (or rather

not

said)

Unvote

What I do find interesting (this is still @DTM) is the fact that out of the 3 inactive / useless people you only mentioned only morph and mavs but take no note of xoxelf whatsoever despite me mentioning him/her just as much as the other two players. Why is that? You single out mavs for the sake of a bandwagon (which is OK with me) but completely fail to mention that everything you said also applies to morph

and

xoxelf at the same time? And yet, you complain about me voting Slaxx', which at that time was a completely legitimate move? If you earnestly call me a hypocrite for voting Slaxx' over one of the three other players then you are a hypocrite just as much because you vote a player for doing something that somebody else - xoxelf, whom you ironically choose to ignore - has also done.
If you really want me to take your point seriously it might be a good idea for you to explain what xoxelf has done that the other two players haven't. Before you do that I take your post as an attempt to nudge or manipulate me since you seem to think that I'm a newbie to forumafia.

Why WOULD gheb vote for someone less suspicious?

At that time I found your behaviour more suspicious - now that you've explained yourself I have to agree that it's less suspicious but there was no way for me to know how you'd react or if some of the other suspect would've spoken up. I don't think my vote against you - even if there are better targets now - was unjustified at that time. There was a legitimate reason behind it and it helped to get serious discussion started.

More to come later - I have to go to work now.

[Gheb]

So if I understand this correctly, we're basing our current choice of lynches on an unwritten "lynch all lurkers" rule. Since obviously nobody seems to be finding anything scummy said by anyone currently active, we're hoping that inactive players = scum so that the day can progress as normal.

I disagree with this. By lurking they actively hurt our process of scumhunting, which

is

scummy. My main issue is that it's also very safe for scum to get an inactive lynched as it doesn't require to take a clear stance.

...

Vote animorpherv1

You have some explaining to do:

Who is the most suspicious and why?
Do you agree that lurking hard is rather suspicious at this point of the game?
How do you feel about people who mainly push for an inactive lynch?
Who has contributed the least in your opnion? I'm not talking about the number of posts. I'm talking about content.

[Gheb]

The problem is that we're not only lacking input from mavsfan but from xoxelf too. We're currently waiting for 2 inactives or their replacements to speak up on what happened with deadline looming. With 4 days left there might not be enough time to fill the hole they're replacing into.

I've seen morph finally taking a stance and stepping it up in terms of activity.

Unvote

@Gayle

Doesn't the fact that he only posted 2 times up to now bother you? I can't think of any town-alligned reason to play that way, especially since it has been reported that he visited mafiascum a couple of times.

@God Mod

Can you please include the names of none-voters in your votecounts?

If your name is not voting anyone, you aren't voting.

[Gheb]

Woah, posts been blowing up like mad. I'm gonna read into it / comment on it but first I'll answer a question directly asked:

@Gheb
-Is pointing out who you think is town scummy or not and why?

It's not scummy but it's still something you want to avoid doing as town. Openly stating who are the players you trust the most only paints targets on those players backs. At the same time scum gains little by posting such a list and it seems pretty much pointless for them to do so I don't assume that there's a bad intention behind it. Just something people should keep in mind.

[Gheb]

OK, so I'm curious as to why DTM and farside are voting for Gayle when they are so sure that mav's play has been anti-town (which I'd agree with) and advocated his lynch pretty clearly all day. Gayle has been playing pretty stupid but I'm not sure if that's because he's scum or just new. A lot of the stuff he said isn't flat-out scummy but just misinformed and I think it's too easy for scum to make him the scapegoat. Look townie if he flips mafia, blame it on his stupid play if he flips town - that's win/win for mafia and thus a likely wagon for them to jump on.

This makes me fairly suspicious of farside and I think her reactions to Gayle's concerns were pretty bad. I think she's exaggerating a lot in this case and looks like opportunistic scum searching the easiest lynch. Gayle lightweight-defending mav's is certainly something to keep in mind in case of a scumflip but at the same time I don't think his arguments were scummy enough to draw such a fierce reaction from farside. Farside only seems to be looking for the most comfotable lynch - the one that is the easiest to sweep under the rug.

Vote Farside

I'd also like to point a FoS at KMD for jumping the Gayle wagon for being so defensive. That's a textbook example of scum looking for a lame excuse to jump on a comfortable lynch. What's so unusual or scummy to be defensive when people jump on your wagon for a case that's blown out of proportion pretty hard? It looks like a pretty natural reaction of a player who's just not used to being scapegoated so hard.

[Gheb]

@Gheb
1. He critzes but doesn't actually give the town alternatives in what he would have done. It's more like a point and say: OMG X IS SCUMMY because HE ATTACKED Y for Z ARGUMENT WHICH IS WEAK. Gayle doesn't address Z argument in the context of my posts, which is still being spammed down by the whole:

YOU DIDN"T HAVE ENOUGH INFO FOR Z SO YOU CAN'T CALL HIM SCUM, BUT HE COULD BE.

That doesn't change my opinion of farside and KMD at all. I'm not saying that Gayle's play isn't suspicous enough to warrant a lynch. I'm saying that the same also applies to KMD / farside IMHO. I'm not saying "Gayle is town so his wagoners are scum". I'm saying "farside's/KMD's arguments and the way they have jumped on the Gayle wagon are pretty suspicous to me." It has nothing to do with assuming that Gayle may or may not be scum - with two mafia fractions scum can still hunt scum themselves so it

could

be a mafia vs mafia debate. My point is that they're making him a scapegoat which is typical behaviour of - you guessed it - the mafia.

And I still don't get why farside argues most of the day with Gayle about how mavsfan's play was anti-town when he votes Gayle for not agreeing. That's a clear contradiction of what she's advocating and of what she's actually doing.

[Gheb]

Unvote Vote Xoxelf

Ask question, bring up points, hunt scum - play the game! It's been so long since we've heard anything from you that's even remotely useful. You posted once after a long streak of inactivity to avoid replacement / a prod and now you continue to play that way? I think most of the arguments against mavsfan should apply to you just as much by now.

I still don't get the contradictions of some people's play. Pushing mav's lynch most of toDay but then giving similar players like xoxelf the free pass? That looks like selective scumhunting to me - if mav's play was anti-town then the same applies to xoxelf period.

[Gheb]

CSL told us we were on the wrong track, so I unvoted.

Please don't tell me that those comments are actually serious? I mean the GM telling us if we're on the right track or not is kind of ... ridiculous? That looks more like a lame excuse of your part, unless CSL clarifies.

[Gheb]

At this point I think lynching some of the more vocal players won't help us too much. I know I keep changing my mind a lot but right now we BADLY lack input from The Longing, Slaxx, Sanhora and Xoxelf - you guys can't all be scum stalling? We have about two days to finalize our lynch and you guys have nothing to say? All 3 of you haven't done more than feigning activity and have posted nothing of substance in a long time.

Unvote Vote Sanhora

Also, I'm against plurality lynch - majority is the way to go, everything else is simply not fair. It's too easy to hide behind a plurality lynch because it gives scum the opportunity to not vote for a townie when needed and look credible in the process because of a pointless rule. At the same time majority lynch encourages the players to talk about their lynches.

[Gheb]

Morph is at L-1, deadline is today, most of his wagoners are feigning activity ... no need to drag this out any longer.

Unvote Vote Animorpherv1

[Gheb]

Votecount 2.1

kmd4390 -2- TheLonging, Gayle

TheLonging -1- kmd4390

Not voting: Gheb, Slaxx, Pomegranate, Xofelf, DTMaster

With 8 alive, 5 will freeze the victim. Currently, kmd4390 will be lynched at the deadline mentioned below.

Gheb's vote didn't count due to spelling errors.

Deadline is Sunday, February 21st, 2010, at 8:00pm EST.

DTMaster is going to be prodded.

---

Was one of my top suspicions all of D1 won't put him @L-2 yet though.

[Gheb]

Vote Xoxelf

Singeling out players as suspicous based on a NK? Everybody should know the amount of WIFOM involved. Horrible attempt to frame somebody.

[Gheb]

Yeah, at this point lurking is anti-town period. After all the discussion we had D2 you seriously letting this getting out of hand. And that bothers me because with that modkill we're at 3 anti-town vs 5 town and if you are town you WANT to make the correct lynch and you WANT all players to do their best. Everything else is Anti-town

Vote The Longing

[Gheb]

lol @ the top suspect trying to dictate the lynches for the next 2 days.

[Gheb]

Go ahead

[Gheb]

Unvote Vote Pomegranate

Helf pressure vote but also having a bad feeling about her. Will elaborate later.

[Gheb]

Slaxx is counted as "not voting" even though he's already dead.

[Gheb]

Sorry for taking so long for bringing up my point. I'm not trying to "beat around the bush", I just happen to have a real life. I will try to cut down unnessecary activities such as eating, drinking, sleeping and going to work from now on. Thanks.

Pome I find scummy for her failure to take a stance most of the time, especially around the time when D1 was about to end. Passively sitting on Gayle (whom I consider town at this point) when ani was obviously the play but then conveniently appearing after I hammered him off looks like opportunism. There were also zero contributions on her part all of D2 except for pounding a 3rd vote on the claimed doctor and still continuing to sit there. Then she conveniently appears after I vote her to question said vote. I think she hasn't done a lot except to feign activity up to this point and to stay under the radar. I think she's nudging us in the wrong direction and I'd like her to take a clear stance for once on what's happening, whom she considers scum and why.

THIS

is what I consider stalling.

[Gheb]

Also rereading is a pain in the ass -_-

[Gheb]

DTM, I think Pom is the scummiest of the bunch because the L-2 raised my eyebrow even before the claimed Doc. Now - as you have correctly wondered yourself - why the hell are there still 3 votes on the uncounterclaimed Doc? At this rate he's going to get lynched and the person who put him at L-2 makes no attempt

whatsoever

to rectify her assumed mistake? I think it's fairly easy to see how and why this rubs me the wrong way. My problem is that Pom only appeared after I voted her but she failed to realize that she herself put the Doc at L-2. Is that skimming or opportunism on her part? It's anti-town regardless especially since she's been stalling a lot of the progress of D2 (something I admit being guilty of myself).

Also, I do not approve at all of other players voting the Doc too - Pom's reaction just struck me as extremely odd because when I called her out for she (and apparently nobody else except me) seemed to have no issue at all with him being L-2. The other's I will certainly keep my eye but I think Pom's recent lack of input looks to me like she's trying to stay out of the spotlight while our claimed Doc is about to be lynched.

[Gheb]

Xolelf's/Pomes current play is extremely dangerous to the town

if either players are town

given CSL's deranged deadlines.

Elaborate? I don't see why you add the underlined part. Is it not dangerous to the town if either player - or at least one of them - is scum as well? But yeah, I agree that both player's game should worry a lot more people than it does right now. Especially Pome imo as I mentioned before.

[Gheb]

Top two suspects for scum with morph is Gayle and Gheb

Elaborate? I read your argument and I still fail to see how you came to that conclusion.

[Gheb]

Yeah posting random quotes and comment on them with one liners will help you a lot to prove I'm scum. Especially when you don't even point out

what's

suspect about it. You accuse me of being on mislynches when I'm one of the most vocal players about lynching players like ani who flipped scum? Seriously? Do you realize that this was the only correct lynch we had so far? If you really think I'm scum for that and for trying to get more attention to players who are under the radar by offering alternative wagons then you should try a lot harder if you want me to be the scapegoat in lylo / mylo. DTM did that earlier and I can easily see a DTM/FarPom Ice Mafia team with both of you making me the scapegoat now for half-assed reasons.

Look at the players who flipped town - Gayle, KMD, Slaxx. They've all been fairly useful for scumhunting and vocal about their suspicions. The only flipped scum we have so far is ani. Who has been playing the exact

opposite

of what town has played so far. Guess whose playstyle also fits? You guessed it - people who've been coasting so far: The Longing and Xofelf. Those people are a

detriment

to town and with 50% of the game being scum and one confirmed scum being plenty inactive / useless I'd say these two should get lots of flak for stalling the whole game.

[Gheb]

Preferably, I would suggest that we focus on finding possible fire scum, out of the list of suspects, If only to reduce the number of night kills to 1 rather than 2

That's bullshit on a silver platter. If we lynch fire mafia Ice mafia wins.

Unvote Vote Jacob

[Gheb]

Guess it's time to claim. I'm fire mafia. Lynch me and you lose.

[Gheb]

Had farside as scum D1 and Pom D2 or D3 (not sure which one) :rolleyes:
Was pissed that the game became pretty much unwinnable for me after D1 -_-