Open 212--Hard Boiled Mafia (Game Over)

[havingfitz]

Greetings all. I was out all day today and will be a good part of tomorrow as well. I'll try to get initial thoughts posted asap. GMT+1 here so goodnight.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz/ Mindgamer.

Good thoughts towards my predecessor which I can no better answer than anyone else in this game. The only advantage I have is knowing what his role was.

[havingfitz]

All...v/LA until tomorrow (travelling today on last day of vacation). Should start posting then.

[havingfitz]

All...v/LA until tomorrow (travelling today on last day of vacation). Should start posting then.

Take two....got back late yesterday and home internet was down most of tonight. Will try to get some content posted tomorrow. Apologies for the slooooow start.

[havingfitz]

Ok, have read through and taken a close look at vote patterns. Didn’t take notes through the read but will go back and look closer (ISO) a few people that caught my attention/suspicions (chau & MMM).

MMM’s attempt to cast suspicions (erroneously IMO) towards mindgamer seemed odd to me and he garnered a lot attention from most of the players (including all three of the confirmed/deceased townies), so I want to make sure I understand where those suspicions are coming from.

Chau...because of her vote to hammer Nick. I see very little if anything in the way of suspicions from her towards Nick so the cavalier hammer to close out D1 seems very scummy to me. When her vote was still on MMM, MMM and Nick were both at L-2. Her unvote off MMM made Nick the leading bandwagon close to the end of D1, which garnered an equally suspicious L-1 vote from Ray leading to chau’s ‘helpful’ no-lynch avoiding hammer.

Soooo....for now,

Vote: chauchaudotcom

[havingfitz]

havingfitz looks scummy. The logic of his last post only works if CC.com and myself are scum together. CC.com and myself talked quite a bit toward the end of the day, so it's understandable she'd change her mind. Also, deadline was imminent, so her choice was lynch Nick or no-lynch. I don't see how she can be blamed for that.

So people can't be blamed (viewed with suspicion) for hammering someone they haven't voiced suspicions of? The hammer vote to avoid a no lynch has immunity? Good to know.

Where does my logic point to you and chau being scum together (which could very well be the case). I just mention you both have got my attention. Couldn't my post also infer chau and Ray/hito are scum together?

@chau....how have you been? Semi did not jump out at me in my first quick read. If/when I get a chance to look at him closer I will provide my thoughts. What are your on him?

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz: I thought your logic was that CC.com would prefer to lynch Nick than myself, which, from a scum perspective, would only be logical if we were both scum. That doesn't really make sense though, since she was already voting me. But, unless I'm wrong, your point is that scum would prefer a lynch to a no-lynch. But town prefer that as well. So, I'm having trouble seeing why you think CC.com's hammer was scummy.

Huh? Your assumptions above make no sense to me. How are you inferring I think scum would prefer a no-lynch? The only time I could see scum preferring a no-lynch is if scum were the leading bandwagon. I have explained my suspicions towards chau, but to re-iterate...I thought the timing of it was odd. She had a vote on you (L-4 which she maintained for less than 72 hrs) and then once two more people (both confirmed townies in hindsight) vote you to bring you at L-2...she jumps off. The she votes Nick who she had voiced little or no no prior suspicions of on the basis of avoiding a no lynch. When she still had her vote on you...who she at least apparently had some suspicions towards...you had as much a shot at being the D1 lynch as Nick. So chau could have done her part to avoid a no-lynch just as easily by keeping her vote on someone she suspected vs someone she did not.

Vote: havingfitz

Just to speed things up. I seem to be the most active player for this game, so I'll be able to quickly unvote if required.

Great reasoning.

havingfitz: What is your view of lynching at the end of the day? Do you think it's better to have a lynch and info or not lynch?

I thought it was suspicious how town sentiment moved from MMM to Nick....the two main contributors to that being Ray and chau. I don’t like no lynches but if I have a choice between a no lynch and voting someone out who I do not think in scum...I won’t vote that person.

havingfitz, was your vote on CC.com solely from her hammer?

The hammer and it’s timing with the other votes taking place.

havingfitz

Havingfitz

He's only really expressed one opinion in thread, and I hate it. Chau hammered forty minutes AFTER deadline, and he's trying to paint the hammer as scummy? His point seems to be that she didn't push the MMM wagon harder. But if RF had jumped on MMM, chau couldn't well HAMMER the wagon she was on - so the 'two equal wagons' argument doesn't exactly work.

That being said, one point does not a case make, and I can't well criticize fitz's inactivity with my dismal state. I'll defer judgment until we see a bit more of fitz.

Why do you hate my sentiments on chau? Even she had criticisms of her end of D1 actions?

Hey fitz! Fantastic, you? Right now I'm unsure. I had a town read on him d1 but his current case against me doesn't seem genuine. It just seems like he's jumping on the wagon because farside pointed it out earlier, too convenient.

Fitz - Thoughts on anyone/thing else so far?

Good thanks. No thoughts at the moments. I have company visiting and access to internet time is low...coupled with too many games. One just freed up though so I should be able to get more involved.

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz: Would you have preferred a Nick lynch or a no-lynch D1? Because that was the decision CC.com had to make. There was no time for discussion, no time to convince anyone else to vote for mindgamer. I really don't see anything scummy about it at all. Check the time on her vote if you aren't convinced. It was deadline, and nobody else was online. Nobody else had time to vote for me, so I was NOT as likely to be lynched.

I would not vote someone I did not have suspicions on to avoid a no lynch. I did not have suspicions D1 towards Nick. So no. Why are you bringing up mindgamer? And at the time chau moved off your wagon there was still a shot at you (ie someone chau had at least expressed suspicions towards as opposed to Nick whom she did not, iirc) being the lynch...which is the point I am making.

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz: Would you have preferred a Nick lynch or a no-lynch D1? Because that was the decision CC.com had to make. There was no time for discussion, no time to convince anyone else to vote for mindgamer. I really don't see anything scummy about it at all. Check the time on her vote if you aren't convinced. It was deadline, and nobody else was online. Nobody else had time to vote for me, so I was NOT as likely to be lynched.

I would not vote someone I did not have suspicions on to avoid a no lynch. I did not have suspicions D1 towards Nick. So no. Why are you bringing up mindgamer? And at the time chau moved off your wagon there was still a shot at you (ie someone chau had at least expressed suspicions towards as opposed to Nick whom she did not, iirc) being the lynch...which is the point I am making.

OK, I had 4 votes on me. Nick had 6. It was deadline, actually it was past deadline, thanks to mod for counting the last vote anyway. Anyway, the only way I could be lynched is if both CC.com voted AND two other people magically appeared in the next fifteen minutes and voted me as well. Are you saying CC.com should've taken that chance? THERE WAS NO TIME for anyone else to vote, CC.com had a matter of minutes to vote either Nick let there be a no-lynch.

True...when we were down to the deadline it was 6-4 and a lynch on you would have been hard to obtain. My suspicions on chau are mostly sue to the fact she got off your wagon when she did...after two fairly quick votes on you had brought you up to L-2...and when you were an equally strong candidate for the D1 lynch. Then to hammer someone she had voiced little or no suspicions for just seemed too convenient....especially when pulling out the ‘avoid a no-lynch’ reason. Should players get a bye from suspicion just because they were ‘avoiding a no lynch?’ Wouldn’t that be convenient for scum.

There was no other option. And a no-lynch is almost always bad for the town, it's basically giving the scum a free kill. I mentioned mindgamer because that was who CC.com would have liked to lynch, but the bandwagon wasn't going anywhere.

OK...you say almost. That means it isn’t always the best option. Since you said almost...what situations are no-lynches acceptable?

You are saying that the day should have ended in a no-lynch, which is quite scummy. You are also spreading suspicion on a player because she thought that a no-lynch was bad. Please explain how a no-lynch D1 benefits town.

I do not support no-lynches, I would never vote for a no-lynch, and given the choice of two or three players I was suspect of...I would move my vote from one or the other to avoid a no-lynch; however, I would not put a vote on a player I did not have suspicions towards to get a no-lynch.

Ex...if we were getting close to a no-lynch today and a chau-wagon (haha) did not have a lot of support...I would gladly move to a MMM wagon. Because I suspect you too

[havingfitz]

Your reasoning for voting BioHazard was not valid – that is not something I am going to change my mind on. I still do not like your response to NickF227’s entrance vote on you -- even with your meta. I am suspicious that BioHazard was killed last night, since he was obviously going to go after you today. I do not like how difficult it has been for me to even a second vote on you today when you were a pretty substantial bandwagon yesterday, and the three dead town players were all on it.

But. I am going to

Unvote: Mysterious Mystery Man

, and I am going to try to read this game over again, hopefully by Saturday.

Confucius...if you still suspect MMM (as I do )...why unvote? Because other's aren't hopping on as well? That doesn't seem to be a very strong reason, especially given the solid points you bring up against him.

Agreed...the game is in the doldrums atm.

When is the deadline Mod?

[havingfitz]

Apologies for my absence. If it's any consolation (probably isn't) I did very well on my tests that I studied for instead of doing this. xP

I'll finish the ISO's tomorrow. In the mean time, despite me not finishing the ISO's, deadlines in five days and I'm alright with picking a lurker that others have found legitimately scummy. Obviously I might switch with more research but for the moment it's important to at least get votes in play.

Vote:evilsnail

Getting rid of a lurker who is is high on people's list of suspects would be a good thing...but does evilsnail fall into that category? farside placed a vote on evil and now you have and neither was accompanied by a reason. And those are the first two votes evil has received the entire game.

Were there some specific suspicions raised towards evil that either of you support? Or reasons you have formulated yourselves?

While I do not like lurkers/inactive players...I don't see that as a reason to lynch in and of itself.

It's kind of a lazy vote imo which I find more scummy than the lurking.

[havingfitz]

Alright people we are coming down to deadline. I want people to just focus on their top 2 suspects and see if we can get a lynch.

I would vote for evilsnail and havingfitz.

Wow...hardly any posts the last two days (by anyone) and I get called out while making a post (is that a good example of being ninja'd?).

farside...I don't recall...have you voiced suspcions of me previously and would you mind elaborating on your willingness to vote me?

[havingfitz]

Lazy voting is a contextual thing. There is pretty much no one really pushing a case. I'm still not in a position to be pushing one myself since I've been so damn disconnected from this game. This is why I brought up something like "Sell me a case" in my first post. Sometimes the town needs leaders and sometimes it needs followers, and until the school year ends I'm not comfortable being a leader.

But this leaves me in an awkward spot when

no one else

is leading in any significant way. I've found Confucius's posts to be pretty logical and agreeable, but apparently he found meta that MMM attacks his attackers in all his games (as you probably could have guessed, I certainty haven't looked at any meta given that I haven't had the time to keep a firm grasp on the game) and so right now he's not voting. As a benefit, in contrast to what you said, there's suspicion of snail voiced not just from farside but also Deer, Confucius, and semioldguy.

Now deadline is almost upon us, and no one is really doing anything. And yes, in this situation, someone needs to get lynched, and a lazy vote is about the only kind I can cast right now. The logic for it goes something like this; snail is helping the least independently of alignment, so if he's townie it'll be the least bad mislynch, and if he's scum we just stopped him from getting away with murder by falling off the grid for multiple weeks and not catching flak for it.

When you say “in contrast to what you said” to me…what were you referring to? I mentioned evil had not received any votes and asked for your suspicions towards evil (either from you or from others). You agree it’s a lazy vote. OK. A quick ISO of evil doesn’t raise any flags for me and the fact he hasn’t posted anywhere on the site in ~12 days gives me more of a townie feel than scum (only in relation to his absence mind you). A bandwagon on evil feels like a policy lynch for lurking (and not even active lurking at that) and MMM’s switch to evil seems very convenient…and scummy.

I gotta say, havingfitz's 428 makes it look like he's buddies with evilsnail. As for the third scum, I think it's got to be either CC.com or semioldguy, but for the life of me I can't be sure which one.

Unvote, vote: evilsnail

I can't see getting a majority for anyone else in time.

@ havingfitz: I think you would only be 'ninja'd' if farside22 said the same thing you were going to say.

MMM…my questions regarding the votes for evil are based on the fact I do not see the reasons associated with the votes and I would be opposed to any similar votes (ie for no apparent reason). On that note, what are your reasons for voting evil…for voting for no apparent reason? Or because you want to ensure there is a lynch?

And now you suspect chau as well? What happened to the town read you had on her? Feels like distancing to me. I find your game to be very flakey and opportunistic. I think that is scummier than being AWOL. I still suspect chau but I’ve just got a scummier feel from you at the moment.

Vote: MMM

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz: Plenty of people have expressed suspicion of evilsnail, if you are unfamiliar with the case, then you should read back, your critique of the bandwagon confirms my suspicion you're buddies with evilsnail.

When I look at votecounts I do not see any votes on evil during D1. So when players start voting him without a reason I ask for those reasons. I did not say no one had provided any. I assume the players voting him have reasons they have formulated themselves or reasons that others have expressed. Hence my question asking them to provide those reasons. I asked for your reasoning as well and you apparently have none. I think focusing on someone who has dropped out of the game is more than likely a convenient mislynch for scum. And the only thing that can "confirm your suspicion" two players were 'buddies' would be their eventual flip/revelation of their roles. You are easily convinced.

[havingfitz]

I feel comfortable with my vote on evilsnail. Even with a week, this game is slow, and I feel relatively sure he's one of the scum due to his vote patterns, and bandwagoning D1. My suspicions are on CC.com and SOG because they suspect each other, and I don't think they are both wrong.

His vote patterns and bandwagoning? He had a random vote on RayFrost and then a vote he maintained on the eventual mislynch...which you joined in on later. Does that make you a bandwagoner too?

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

Happy with my vote where it is.

[havingfitz]

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him

now that his role appears abondoned?

By this logic shouldn't MMM be pushing for a Conf lynch? Or maybe a Fitz lynch...or farside?

Do the people you mention fall under the same logic? Have any of us bailed on the game?

[havingfitz]

3.)

havingfitz, do you

really

think Mysterious Mystery Man's vote on evilsnail today is a remnant of the fact that evilsnail claimed to be suspicious of Mysterious Mystery Man on Day One? I feel like you might trying to feed some fuel to the fire with that comment.

I did not say MMM’s evil vote and evil’s suspicions towards MMM were related. MMM never really gave much of a reason for his evil vote and when he did, vote patterns and bandwagoning...I disputed those being valid reasons.

When did stating the ‘facts’ become a bad thing?

When did fueling suspicions towards someone, with 'facts', become a bad thing?

[havingfitz]

Reading CC.com in ISO, and I found a few problems. She starts day 2 by voting havingfitz, since he's mindgamer's replacement, but then questions semioldguy. It starts with a casual 'what are you thinking', but then most of her posts are responding to his. I also don't like her disinterest in havingfitz's weak vote on her, and I'm wondering about a scum team. Given the fact that they either are or were voting for each other, they don't really seem to be questioning one another. Looks like distancing.
------
@ havingfitz: Is your case on CC.com still only based on her hammer?

Which case is that? You do realize my vote is on you? As for my prior vote on chau...she hasn't done anything to allieve my suspicions...she has just been passed by you.

Speaking of distancing, why was it you went from a town read on chau to suspecting her? And so now I'm in a scum team with evil AND chau? Impressive work.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz vote and reasoning for vote on chau is terrible. Most people look to lynch for information. Hammering on someone to get a lynch isn't scummy

If we all had the same opinion the game wouldn’t be fun…now would it? Chau’s vote did give me info. Is hammering scummy if you are scum? Is it scummy if you don’t think the person you’re voting is scum?

I would not vote someone I did not have suspicions on to avoid a no lynch. I did not have suspicions D1 towards Nick

I think this is because you weren't even around for day 1 to state who you were suspicious of.

So I’m not allowed to read D1 and provide an opinion on it?

Havingfits: Do you believe MMM is scum?

Of course…isn’t my vote on him? Do you vote for people you think are scum or town?

havingfits: is the only reason your suspicious of chau do to the hammer?

The hammer and her voting pattern the end of D1.

12 days gives me more of a townie feel than scum

yes because only a town player flakes and disappears
It's null at best

Now I can’t even have a gut feel towards something?

And my scum list consist of semiold, havingfitz, MMM and evil.

Did you ever give a reason for suspecting me? I don’t think so

[havingfitz]

Now, my first choice of a lynch is havingfitz. Case:

Mindgamer made votes with little reasoning. He voted RayFrost for "drama", and while that was early on and could be forgiven, he later votes Ythan because: "I call sentences like these a strong scumtell. And I'm willing to vote for it." with no explanation as to why the sentence was a scumtell. Oh wait, he did clarify:

Nope, because I believe I have a good reason for my vote.

Clear as mud?

I can’t speak for mindgamer's thoughts or reasoning.

Mindgamer also contradicted himself:

I don't like how the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon is growing so quickly. Already three votes, and Evilsnail outing suspicions towards Mysterious Mystery Man. I'd say there's a good chance on of those last three is scum (Semioldguy's vote was a random vote).

I did? Not at all, sir. Could you point me to the post where you got this impression?

What's the big deal about the MMM wagon? It's remarkable, but not THAT important. There's more interesting stuf to look at

However, I have to say something at this point. I dislike the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon.

How are these contradictions? He says he doesn’t like the way your wagon grew so quickly and confirms that opinion.

Now we have havingfitz...

Votes CC.com on his first real post of the game. Reasoning: because she hammered Nick. Never mind that it was actually past deadline. The interesting thing is:

which garnered an equally suspicious L-1 vote from Ray

This suspicion of RF and/or hitogoroshi does not rise again.

It didn’t matter it was past the deadline…the intention was still there and the vote still counted. As for RF/hito…they haven’t been high enough on my suspect list to focus on. And if they have done nothing else noticeable to me I would not have anything else to say.

havingfitz adds no new information on CC.com, insisting that the timing of her vote was 'odd'. Eventually, he switches to me. The logic being mainly my vote on evilsnail, which was again made extremely close to deadline.

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

I really don't like this. It sounds scary, but there's no logic for me to do such a thing.

If there is no new info for me to add I’m not going to make it up. I do think the timing of her vote was odd…your point? And I said something scary? You’re just making stuff up now…aren’t you?

I did not say MMM’s evil vote and evil’s suspicions towards MMM were related. MMM never really gave much of a reason for his evil vote and when he did, vote patterns and bandwagoning...I disputed those being valid reasons.

I can't find where he disputed the reasoning.

Try here.

Finally, in his latest post, he mentions how farside22 didn't have any reasoning on him, when I was able to look back and see it easily.

Unvote

I'll post my case on evilsnail later on. I'm not sure which one of them is the best lynch any more.

Where do you see farside’s reasoning easily?

And why unvote? If being close to the deadline and there not being any hope for a majority is the only reason you voted him…why take off your vote when we’re even closer to the deadline? Also…the fact you need to post your case on evil shows you did not provide one with your earlier vote on him.

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz: yes I do have a case but seeing as all you do is roll your eyes at everything I say without saying why for example I should believe that you didn't think Nick was scum. It's really convient to say as you were not here during day 1 and blaming someone else and attacking them for hammering is oh so convient.

The eye rolls were in response to the multiple ones you were giving me.

As for whether I thought Nick was scum or not...it's really not important to my earlier suspicions towards chau. What was important for me was the fact SHE did not appear to be that suspicious of Nick. And I've already stated my opinion re: voting others to prevent a no-lynch without voiced suspicions on them. How are my views towards chau's hammer convenient? WTF are you talking about?

[havingfitz]

I can't believe we are unable to get a replacement for evil. The fact that slot has been empty for 3 weeks is ridiculous (no offense to you mod). I also do not think evil's slot should be considered for the lynch due to the fact it is empty. If evil voters have valid reasons...fine, but I can't believe suspicions would be strongest towards someone who has not had any input for 3 weeks when even if evil was scum...that still leaves two more who had to have been more active then evil and provided more reason to be lynched then being awol. An evil lynch just feels like an easy mislynch for scum.

MMM...why does something dramatic need to happen to get you to vote? Is evil your top suspect or not? People who forecast how they intend to vote...instead of just placing a vote...always come across as suspicious to me. Almost like they are looking for approval for their upcoming vote.

Still happy with my MMM vote. Could support a Chau or hito lynch as well....both based on assessment of their D1 voting activities.

[havingfitz]

By 'something dramatic', I mean any reversal of general consensus. But with the pace of this game, I doubt that will happen. That's why I'll vote evilsnail, I really don't see anyone else being lynched in time.

So unless everyone else is ready to lynch havingfitz suddenly, I'm out of things to say.

So you're good with whoever the consensus is on? Riding the wave...going for the easy lynches vs actually finding scum? How do you expect consensus to change if all you do is throw out impending vote comments? If I'm your top suspect...for whatever reason that may be (you have not responded to any of my points in post 480 btw)...why not vote me? Your lack of commitment is scummy.

[havingfitz]

Now, my first choice of a lynch is havingfitz. Case:

Mindgamer made votes with little reasoning. He voted RayFrost for "drama", and while that was early on and could be forgiven, he later votes Ythan because: "I call sentences like these a strong scumtell. And I'm willing to vote for it." with no explanation as to why the sentence was a scumtell. Oh wait, he did clarify:

Nope, because I believe I have a good reason for my vote.

Clear as mud?

I can’t speak for mindgamer's thoughts or reasoning.

So I can't use that as part of my case?

No...if you want to base your suspicions of me on mindgamer's play you can.

Mindgamer also contradicted himself:

I don't like how the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon is growing so quickly. Already three votes, and Evilsnail outing suspicions towards Mysterious Mystery Man. I'd say there's a good chance on of those last three is scum (Semioldguy's vote was a random vote).

I did? Not at all, sir. Could you point me to the post where you got this impression?

What's the big deal about the MMM wagon? It's remarkable, but not THAT important. There's more interesting stuf to look at

However, I have to say something at this point. I dislike the Mysterious Mystery Man wagon.

How are these contradictions? He says he doesn’t like the way your wagon grew so quickly and confirms that opinion.

Read the quotes again. He switches from saying the wagon is scummy to denying he thought that, to saying it's no big deal, to saying he doesn't like it again.

This is a blatant lie on your part (specifically your comments on his second post where you say he denied thinking your wagon was scummy)!

1st quote - He thought your wagon was scummy.
2nd quote - He responded to Deer questioning why he (Mindgamer) stopped thinking there was scum on your (MMM) wagon. That is what Mindgamer is answering with his quote above and which is in no way a contradiction to his position on your wagon.
3rd quote - He says your wagon is remarkable but there are better things to look at….I don’t see a contradiction and he did not call it ‘no big deal” as you put it.
4th quote – we agree…he doesn’t like it

Now we have havingfitz...

Votes CC.com on his first real post of the game. Reasoning: because she hammered Nick. Never mind that it was actually past deadline. The interesting thing is:

which garnered an equally suspicious L-1 vote from Ray

This suspicion of RF and/or hitogoroshi does not rise again.

It didn’t matter it was past the deadline…the intention was still there and the vote still counted. As for RF/hito…they haven’t been high enough on my suspect list to focus on. And if they have done nothing else noticeable to me I would not have anything else to say.

Then what has CC.com done that made her more suspicious than RF?

The reasons I already provided. I do suspect RF/Hito for the same reason but chau’s was more amplified due to it being the hammer w/ no prior suspicions voiced towards Nick. As mentioned in a previous post…my list is you, chau and RF/Hito.

havingfitz adds no new information on CC.com, insisting that the timing of her vote was 'odd'. Eventually, he switches to me. The logic being mainly my vote on evilsnail, which was again made extremely close to deadline.

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

I really don't like this. It sounds scary, but there's no logic for me to do such a thing.

If there is no new info for me to add I’m not going to make it up. I do think the timing of her vote was odd…your point? And I said something scary? You’re just making stuff up now…aren’t you?

I really don't see your point with that statement. A player says he didn't like me, which is weak evidence since he changed his mind, disappears, and I want to lynch him because of it? Why? evilsnail isn't a threat. Even if he was replaced, there's no guarantee that his replacement would find me scummy. It's a very weak argument.

What are you talking about? You are avoiding the questions I am asking above by bringing up my comment re: evil’s suspicions towards you.

I did not say MMM’s evil vote and evil’s suspicions towards MMM were related. MMM never really gave much of a reason for his evil vote and when he did, vote patterns and bandwagoning...I disputed those being valid reasons.

I can't find where he disputed the reasoning.

Try here.

I see two accusations, no quotes, no evidence to back up your claims, and a response I made immediately afterward.

You say you can’t see where I dispute your reasoning. The post I provided is me disputing your reasoning (of vote patterns and bandwagoning). I will now quote the relevant part for your reading comprehension:

“His vote patterns and bandwagoning? He had a random vote on RayFrost and then a vote he maintained on the eventual mislynch...which you joined in on later.”

How are a Random vote and then a vote he maintained the rest of the game conducive to a pattern analysis or exhibit bandwagoning?

Finally, in his latest post, he mentions how farside22 didn't have any reasoning on him, when I was able to look back and see it easily.

Unvote

I'll post my case on evilsnail later on. I'm not sure which one of them is the best lynch any more.

Where do you see farside’s reasoning easily?

Post 471. Her first paragraph deals with you, as well as the second last one. She also asks two questions directed at you.

Her post may “deal with” me but it does not provide and reasoning to suspect me. Unless saying my vote for chau is terrible and disagreeing with my I was leaning towards evil being town due to his absence is the reasoning farside is making that is such a good case on me. WTH? Are you serious?

And why unvote? If being close to the deadline and there not being any hope for a majority is the only reason you voted him…why take off your vote when we’re even closer to the deadline? Also…the fact you need to post your case on evil shows you did not provide one with your earlier vote on him.

Because I was hoping (and still am) to get a bandwagon on you.

I finally feel like you’ve made an honest statement. Good job!

People…please read my response to MMM above. His response to me is misleading and has at least one significant lie in it. MMM was a frontrunner in the D1 voting race and only a late switch by chau and Ray to the mislynch ensured his (MMM’s) survival. Also…one of his main D1 detractors was the NK. MMM is flying way too low under the radar on Day 2. BTW MMM, nice OMGUS vote there

havingfitz: I gave you one eye roll not several eye rolls. And it's easy to say well I thought X was town when you never gave a view in the first place.

Both your eye rolls in that post were directed at me. Is it important to discuss further? And more rubbish from you....am I supposed to reveal everyone I think gives me a town read (which I rarely do BTW) before saying I do not think they are scum?

[havingfitz]

That's hammer.

Can't believe with so many potential targets in this game that are actually 'contributing,' we go for the easy deadweight.

If evil does flip town...the game is in LYLO? Yes?

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz: Regardless of his voting patterns, evilsnail sided with whichever bandwagon was popular at the time. The quotes I selected show different opinions at different times. Also, I would like you to respond as to why you think or thought my vote on evilsnail was because he expressed suspicion of me, rather than changing the subject. And it would be nice if you could explain why my vote was OMGUS, instead of just shouting 'FIRE' and hoping for a quicklynch.

EDIT: Yeah, if he's town, we're in lylo and should massclaim tomorrow. On a side note, I've got to stop leaving my posts up overnight.

Regardless of his voting patterns? You gave two reasons for suspecting evil and now your backing off one of them? So much for that case. I’m not going to analyze every comment evil made in his short time here to see if he was supporting bandwagons...but his votes don’t seem to indicate that and voicing suspicions on numerous players is not uncommon. You are doing quite a good job of suspecting everyone yourself.

I assume by the quotes you selected you mean your contradiction case against mindgamer? In my response above (post 503) I show how that case is completely misleading and in regards to the second quote...either an outright lie or a major misinterpretation on your behalf.

I never said I thought your vote on evil was because he expressed suspicion towards you. Look again. It was a stand alone comment after I voted you that had no bearing on my vote.

The OMGUS comment is based on my opinion that you are voting me for no reason other than the fact I am pressuring you. You have placed two votes on me provided no reason with either of them. If it’s not OMGUS...how about providing a reason that is valid?

[havingfitz]

I’m not going to analyze every comment evil made in his short time here to see if he was supporting bandwagons...

Fine, but I have. You admit to only looking at the votes. I've read Mindgamer in ISO, and compared his suspicions with the suspicions of others.

Without taking his votes into consideration...how are you determining that mindgamer was on multiple bandwagons? Did he hand out FoS’s or just voice suspicions? Your case on him was based on vote patterns (which you have since dismissed) and bandwagoning. How are his suspicions towards others anymore an example of bandwagon that what you are doing...and which YOU state is a GOOD thing in your quote below!

Are you even making an effort in your posts? Unbelievable.

You are doing quite a good job of suspecting everyone yourself.

? Isn't suspecting everyone a good thing?

Like I said above...how is this any different than the bandwagoning you claim mindgamer did?

I never said I thought your vote on evil was because he expressed suspicion towards you.

I did notice evil had strong suspcions towards you most of the day. Is that why you want to lynch him now that his role appears abondoned?

What is the point of the two quotes you show above? I did not mention evil’s suspicions towards you when I voted you. Here is the post where I voted you... MMM VOTE
Back up your insinuation.

The OMGUS comment is based on my opinion that you are voting me for no reason other than the fact I am pressuring you. You have placed two votes on me provided no reason with either of them. If it’s not OMGUS...how about providing a reason that is valid?

I've been on your case since your vote on CC.com at the start of the day.

You only started suspecting me much later on.

If anyone is using OMGUS here, it's you.

OK, Mr. ?

More lies. I am a strong proponent of lynching all liars and this is twice I have caught you in one.

D2 had been going on for a ~week and you had not mentioned me or mindgamer once that I can find. As soon as I express my suspicions towards chau and YOU...you chime in less than an hour later saying you think I am scummy. Your comment above...which I have put in bold...is a blatant lie.

If you are still here tomorrow (which I have no doubt you will be...) you need to be the lynch. And anyone that supports you bears close watching...though I expect with your play you will get some quality bussing.

[havingfitz]

No counter claim.

I am zeroed in on MMM today primarily for the end of D2 discussions between he and I. He was unable to get his story straight and/or was making blatant misrepresentations (aka lies) which I have already pointed out.

While I assess who my ~2 suspect is...

Vote: MMM

[havingfitz]

I didn’t think we were in LYLO...since we are;

Unvote

I’d be hard pressed to change my views towards MMM but I believe calmer heads would be the best approach...for now.

Look forward to the views of others.

[havingfitz]

Hoping for a quicklynch?

For scum, always!

@ havingfitz: It would be nice if you responded to my last post, in which I refuted your case on me. I say again: your claim of OMGUS on you is laughable, and you have thus far ignored my case on you. If you want anyone to give your vote credence, I suggest that you respond properly.

I responded in Post 510 and elaborate at the bottom of this post. I have responded properly and you are ignoring and misrepresenting facts.

Try reading Mindgamer, and I think you'll see the change of opinion. And, although you said otherwise, I have not 'dismissed' Mindgamer's voting; his vote on Ythan with no explanation is another reason in my case against him/you.

Mindgamer did provide reasoning for his vote on Ythan. It wasn’t the greatest and he elaborated a bit in post 159. To say he provided no reason for his vote is another ‘misrepresentation’ on your part.

In contrast, my vote on Ythan was made at the end of the day (Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:58 pm – 8 days left), and was accompanied by reasoning. Also, suspecting many people is different from bandwagoning. It's one thing to have your eye on more than one person, but quite another to side with the most popular argument.

What does this contrast have to do with anything? And BTW...I would not call 8 days left till deadline the end of the day. But regardless...what does it matter?

I came across this while quantifying my responses to you and thought it was worth bringing up again:

Making a serious vote this quickly will likely cause either one of two things: I am lynched, or you are lynched. Either way, it's not a smart move for town, the exception being of course, if I am scum.

Do you know Bio's alignment somehow?

---

As for the two quotes, my point was to show how you made a argument you couldn't follow up on: namely

saying my vote on evilsnail was because he expressed suspicion of me D1

. When I questioned you about that, you denied it. It doesn't matter if it was in the same post when you voted me, it was still said, and it's a baseless accusation.

Your comment above which I bolded is a blatant lie. My vote on you had nothing to do with my later comment about you and evilsnail. As I detail in Post 510. The fact I make an observation later ITT completely separate from my vote can not be construed as being the reason for the earlier vote...as I explained further to Confucius.

Finally, your remark about how you put suspicion on me first is a lie. That post only shows that you wanted to look closer to my case on Mindgamer, who you replaced. So, even if you do take that as an expression of suspicion and not a declaration of investigation, it was still in response to suspicion I put on your player slot.

How is it a lie? I replaced in at the start of D2. Eight RL days after D2 had started I state that you and chau have “caught my attention/suspicions” to which you follow less than an hour later saying I am scummy (ie OMGUS!). I can not find any mention by you towards me or mindgamer on D2 prior to you calling me scummy. Additionally....the last reference I can find on D1 where you mention mindgamer is in the post where you vote Ythan (who mindgamer is also voting for) where you say,

Hm... Tricky. I have a gut town read, but his play is erratic. Honestly, I could go either way on him.

So how HTH can you dispute the fact I found you suspicious when I say so (ie before you started to focus on me)?

And how can you say I was suspicious of you based on your prior suspicions towards me or mindgamer when you had barely mentioned mindgamer? Hell...two players had votes on mindgamer at the end of D1....that is what I would call exhibiting suspions towards, not what you did. This whole argument on your part is completely without merit.

Your play on D2 (and so far today) has been poor and you are cornered scum.

I can’t think of any reason to not vote you. I am locked in on you. Your play is extremely scummy and your cases are crap. I’m done going around with you...it’s a waste of my time to continue regurgitating what I have already said to you. If anyone else requires clarification on my MMM stance I would be happy to discuss further.

Vote MMM

We should lynch somebody today, and I will Vig somebody overnight. If either one of those hit scum, we will either win the game or have a Day Four with three players alive, and one last chance to lynch scum.

Question....if you are targeted by scum tonight (which I assume you would be)...does your kill go through regardless? When MMMscum is lynched and only one scum remains....whose night action would have precedence? Or would they both go through?

[havingfitz]

Believe it or not, this post makes me lean toward a town read on you.

I think you know I'm town.

It's about guaranteed that Confucius will vig me tonight, so scum wouldn't have to get me lynched.

If you aren't the lynch and you are leaning towards me being town....and Confucius is confirmed town...who are the two remaining scum amongst chau, farside, and pie is good? And why?

I think he really thinks I'm scum.

He's really not alone.

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz: If it comes down to it, is there anyone else you have a good enough scum read on that you'd also be willing to vote?

Personally, the more I think about it, the more I feel comfortable with MMM town.

Not today. MMM is it for me.

Whose next? Confucius is town...I believe farside is town...that leaves me with chau and pie is good as the last scum (IMO). I have suspected them for similar reasons (end of D1 votes) but focused more on Chau since hers was the hammer. Upon further reflection...RayFrost's completely unexplained vote on Nick on D1 was equally, if not more suspect. Coupled with my belief there were at least 2 scum on evil's bandwagon...that leaves me with pie is good as suspect number two (I'd say it's 70-30 pie over chau).

That's my take on things.

[havingfitz]

Pie...I’m not sure I know where you stand at the moment. Am I your #1 suspect? If so...why?
Whoever your #2 is (chau?)....could you explain why?

And last....can you please explain how you have come to the conclusion MMM is town? If my exchange with him to end D1 and begin D2 does not open people’s eyes (ie town) to how he has misrepresented his facts (aka lied) and doesn't raise/confirm suspicions of him then I am truly at a loss.

I can see how scum would find him town...but experienced scum would never get that buddy buddy with the top suspect on most of the remaining player’s lists. Right?

[havingfitz]

EBWOP:

If my exchange with him to end D1 and begin D2

Should have read "If my exchange with him to end D2 and begin D3..."

[havingfitz]

(MMM, Pie) + (far, fitz)

This implies that far/fitz can't be a scumteam. Why? Or is that just a mistype?

It also implies that MMM and Pie can't be a scum team...which is where I'm leaning. So like Pie said, why?

[havingfitz]

OK...I maintain my suspicions towards MMM and have a hard time understanding why he is not garnering more attention. That said...everyone has an opinion and as there are more town than scum...if a predominance of players think MMM is not high enough to lynch today....so be it. We need 4 to get a lynch so there needs to be a consensus among town or we need to get scum to bus.

Earlier in D3 I said I was considering farside town. On further review I am bumping farside up a bit. And since the trend for the day is to provide groupings....here’s mine. I think the scum are (MMM or chau [leaning heavily MMM]) and (farside or Pie). Though to be honest...if MMM were to flip town, in addition to my jaw hitting the floor, I would be inclined to consider both farside and Pie higher than chau.

So my suspects in order are MMM, farside, Pie, and chau.

The main reason for chau and farside essentially swapping spot with each other is due to assessing the votes, along with farside’s switch from MMM to evil on D2 without any reason...other than MMM suddenly being less suspicious. I am of the mind that D1 and D2 wagons in general are more likely to not have entire scum teams on them. Some scum are going stay off the wagons in order to give them plausible deniability in the aftermath of their desired mislynches.

As I am content to consider Confucius confirmed town, and not including myself, I view the D1 and D2 votes as thus:

The D1 wagon had MMM, Pie/hito/RF, and chau (and semi). Therefore I think there is only one scum amongst MMM, pie and hito, and through elimination...this leaves me with farside as the other scum, which is supported by...

The D2 wagon which had farside and pie (and semi), which through elimination (and everything else I have brought up earlier) leaves me with MMM as scum.

In summary...I’d be up for a vote on either MMM or farside. I would hope Confucius would vig either the remaining person of this pair...and if that did not hit scum...I would be looking firmly at pie (that made me laugh after I typed it). I would not risk a two post LYLO town loss and vote pie immediately (which has happened to me in the past)...but it would take a good bit of convincing to sway me from chau to pie if that ended up being the D4 roster. Hopefully our D3 lynch and the vig’s shot tonight will end the game with a town win.

I would keep my vote on MMM but as I consider Confucius confirmed town and his vote is one of the four required, I’ll join him.

Unvote, Vote: farside

[havingfitz]

I would keep my vote on MMM but as I consider Confucius confirmed town and his vote is one of the four required, I’ll join him.

Let me make this clear.

We have over two weeks to get a lynch. Right now, I want you voting

your

top suspect, and

not

simply who you think you are most likely to get a lynch on.

When we get closer to deadline, then we can worry about actually getting a lynch.

If you feel you are in a position to dictate our actions then you should realize you are in a position to get the lynch you prefer...regardless of who our top suspects are. If I was able to lynch one person and did not have to rely on others to make it happen...I would lynch MMM. But putting my vote on him does no good if you aren't on board with it.

ATM...unless other information comes to light...I am considering chau lowest on my list of suspects behind MMM-farside-pie. We are in a position to eliminate all three of those people depending on what your vig action is tonight. And actually...depending on who your top three suspects are....you might not even be the NK since tonight will be the last chance you get to use your vig ability. Therefore...it is probably best if you refrain from expanding beyond your top two suspects. For now, mine are MMM and farside. Happy with either one.

[havingfitz]

you said: "can see how scum would find him town...but experienced scum would never get that buddy buddy with the top suspect on most of the remaining player’s lists. Right?"

I said: "Not necessarily. If that actually is actually town experienced scum could use that as a way to build up credibility and stay out of the heat the next day after the suspect flips innocent.

Sorry chau...I left out the [sarcasrm] [/sarcasm] indicators.

That sucks you are replacing out as we near the end of D3 and end up in D4 (unless we get the lynch and Confucius vig-shot right). The time you have endured in the game and your perspective will not be easily replaced by someone who has to wade through 25 pages.

tl:dr - well that focking sucks.

[havingfitz]

Considering the fact Chau is residing at the bottom of my suspect list...

I echo Confucius' concerns regarding a shorter deadline without chau being replaced or her replacement not having time for game review

and I find Pie's generous offer at this critical stage of the game...to just lynch Chau...to be quite opportunistic, aka scummy.

[havingfitz]

I feel like farside has checked out.

Pie...your lynch comment did not come across as "I continue to think chau is the best lynch due to all of my previous suspicions and coupled with her bailout...I believe she is still the best lynch." Admittedly...you have been focussed on chau most of this day...yet your lynch comment was addressed at the rest of us (most of whom chau is not high on our list (I think)) and read to me as "Hey...let's all vote for chau because replacing out is scummy and we can avoid having to deal with a replacement." Which to me seems like an opportunistic push for other's to vote for chau. Because she is bailing.

[havingfitz]

I would feel a lot worse about the immediate backing of a farside lynch if I didn't already find CC scummy (so it seems entirely possible that MMM/havingfitz are legitimately town pointing fingers at farsidescum).

Anyways, Vote: chauchau. A farside lynch wouldn't be the worst thing in the world come deadline but I'd prefer this..

Pie...still feel this way?

Mod...when is the deadline?

[havingfitz]

Damb...9 more days.

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn..........

Hopefully the replacement won't take too long to find.

[havingfitz]

Online time has been at a premium this weekend due to RL commitments. Though nothing has really happened since Friday.

Can't believe there hasn't been a replacement yet with this stellar line up

[havingfitz]

And then there was one (vote on farside that is).

Unvote, Vote Pie_is_good

[havingfitz]

Farside...do you have any problem voting for Pie (who appears to be in your top three)? Are there any people you would absolutely not consider voting for today...especially when the option could be a No Lynch?

Mod....no bites on the chau replacement?

[havingfitz]

Cr@p!

When Pie ended up town I was worried whoever Confucius Vig'd might be town and end the game. Fock fock fock. I did think farside would be the night target but as I had my suspects ranked Farside-Pie and MMM-chau, the possibility of me screwing things up if we had gone into D4 was a strong possibility. Though I would not have rushed things and at least let MMM make his case and who knows...my earlier suspicions towards chau may have been revivied. Who knows. Fock.

On MMM being the vig kill due to personal reasons....that is a shame. I did not pick up on any blatant vitriol between players when I did my read. I do think MMM's play was scummy but nothing to warrant a vote based on personality...which is never a good reason. I was the mislynch on what has to be the record (or tied for) shortest final day when I was a D4 mislynch in two posts due to the other townie voting me in part because I had managed to offend her. That was frustrating.

I won't say good game to any of the scum because I thought farside was scum and chau bailing (which I assume does not consitute a win for her) really took away the opportunity to scrutinize that position. I will say it was a pleasure playing with everyone though.

Thanks for modding jeffcole1. The last day really dragged with the chau bail so that had to make it frustrating for you.

[havingfitz]

Pie...why didn't you throw a vote on farside when we had her at L-1? That could have made a huge difference. Especially if we had to wait for a replacement to then finish out the game.