Open 257 - SCIENCE! (game over, scum wins!)

[Crazy]

/confirmz

[Crazy]

Hey guys. It's been a couple months since I last played in a mafia game, so I haven't played with any of you - at least not that I can remember.

I've always thought that almost any policy lynch is stupid in principle; I think it's very unlikely for someone to be

that

detrimental to the town that you wouldn't at least try to get a read on them first, or try to see if anyone else comes across as scummy. As for Shotty, I'm not aware of his meta. Would someone (probably Thor) tell me why he should be policy lynched?

[Crazy]

Um, Thor, is there some specific game where Shotty did something really anti-town? Have you called for his policy lynch in the past?

Does anyone else besides Thor want a policy lynch? What I think, even if Shotty is completely useless (which he may or may not be), I've never seen a player that actually

hurts

the town so much that we'd be willing to waste one of our 3 lynches on him without even trying to get any sort of read on him.

@Shotty - Do you know what this is about? Do you play in so many games at once that your gameplay in each individual game suffers?

[Crazy]

@Crazy - no , I don't think I've ever attempted to policy lynch shotty before. Does that matter, if so how? If not, why are you asking?

I wanted to know if your attitude in this game reflected your general opinion, or if you were unprecedently gunning for a quicklynch here. I already thought your policy lynch idea was bad; I just didn't know if it was scummy yet.

I agree with the policy lynch, and I'll tell you why: We're going to lynch him. It's just a matter of when. Crazy, he has selfhammered as town in LyLo. VOTE: DMSIS

Okay, that's really really bad, I'll admit that. Still, "OMG LYNCH HIM BEFORE HE CAN LYNCH HIMSELF!!" is very bad logic.

Do you guys want to lynch him as a punishment for his past behavior, or are you actually trying to win this game? I'll be happy to lynch him if he acts scummy, but you guys are playing stupidly.

[Crazy]

Conclusions?

You didn't get my implication there? XD I meant what you're doing is scummy since you haven't shown how what you're doing is precedented according to your meta.

If we're playing stupidly then why don't you pick up a banner and lead the charge in a direction you approve of? Or, y'know, you could sit there and call people stupid and just ask questions without taking any particular direction of your own - whichever works for you.

I'll again note - policy or no there's a 1/3 percent chance I'm right from your perspective - what's so "stupid" about that when it also gets a VI?
Do you find shotty town thus far? Why/why not?

I'm trying to start discussion here, instead of just saying "OMG LYNCH THE VI!" Policy lynching is either stupid or scummy; as for you, you seem like you should know better, so I'm thinking more "scummy".

As for Shotty, he hasn't said anything yet that tilts me either way on him. You mentioned a 1/3 chance of hitting scum, we can do better than that if we

actually scumhunt

. Plus, even if we ended up lynching Shotty today, we'd at least get more information from competing bandwagons/etc. rather than just policy lynching him right now.

[Crazy]

Shotty, you realize Andrew named his reason in a later post, right?

[Crazy]

@Crazy - my question in #58 was brilliant and applicable, why didn't you respond?

I did ask Shotty a question in regards to that post; I just didn't quote the post where you told me to look at it.

@CRAZY- yess i realize he post "reasons". but like I said, they are just IIoA.

I don't think IIoA means what you think it does. Are you just throwing out a random scum-tell and hoping it applies?

@ Thor: The reason you should have waited with advocating shotty's lynch untill he (possibly) did something scummy is this:
If a policy lynch goes through, the day ends with very little discussion. And if you're sure he's gonna incriminate himself, why not try a see some reactions from other players?

This is correct, of course. I should have made that argument, but I forgot.

[Crazy]

My computer crashed last night. I see an Andrew wagon. I'll read up and post tonight, in hope that my laptop works. (I'm on someone else's computer right now.)

[Crazy]

Shotty and Andrew both come off horribly in that exchange; Shotty a little worse, though. I think one of them is probably scum, but they're probably not both scum together.

@Andrew - Your threatening and pleading is really bad, but I'll take it that you didn't know better. But when Shotty asked you whether you were goon or encryptor, why did you say "whatever makes you unvote" instead of just saying you were a townie?

@Shotty - Since you keep referring to a bunch of wiki scum-tells, I'll ask you why you used a loaded question about whether he was a goon or encryptor? Were you hoping he'd just say something retarded? (which I guess he did?) o_0

[Crazy]

You also didn't answer the question either.
But I'll accept this as an "I'm looking into it and will offer my opinions once I have more information"
I'll ask again later.

The IIoA thing... I guess Shotty just didn't know what it meant, so I'm null about that. His loaded question and opportunistic attitude towards Andrew is way worse, though.

[Crazy]

In addition to bad logic he is also pretty hostile, which I consider a scum tell.

How are

either

of these things scum tells?

Really also not liking Crazy right now, his posts just feel like they were dancing around the shotty question, sorta mudballing me for mentioning the policy issue while also trying to gently drift into wanting to vote shotty. He feels like scum who wants to leap but is trying to make sure he looks town first.

This post is the closest thing to a "scumslip" that I've seen. This post heavily implies that Shotty is town. Explain, please.

Btw, the policy thing is still crap, regardless of how scummy Shotty turned out to be.

[Crazy]

First of all, I think the remaining mason ought to claim today. Anybody have any objections to that?

[Crazy]

I like the idea that the mason should only claim if we "FoS-lynch" him.

My top suspects atm (I may need to reread) are Shotty, for his opportunistic behavior towards Andrew yesterday (I think I pointed that out), and Gandalf because of the policy lynch idea Day 1. It may have been Thor's idea, but Gandalf isn't any less scummy for following it.

I have a reliable connection now, so I'll be able to post more frequently. I'll do a more cohesive reread tomorrow - I'm just posting now so you guys know I didn't disappear.

[Crazy]

Post #235 is just horrible.

#1. He calls Shotty's policy lynch and Andrew "good wagons," lol.
#3. He avoids the question.
#4. He avoids ANOTHER question.

AND he drops the "rolefishing" bomb out of nowhere with no analysis to back it up.

I suppose edmund has to claim, but

FoS Gandalf

[Crazy]

Pff, I just did an iso on a couple people for the first time.

UnFoS

FoS bv

1. Hops on the Shotty policy lynch wagon, despite saying that he found Gandalf scummy.
2. Defends the Andrew wagon without giving any logic to why it's bad. His "go ahead and lynch me if he flips scum" really just makes him sound like scum trying to look good. Townies usually aren't confident enough to make such bold statements.
3. Says he'd lynch Shotty Day 2

even if he didn't think he was scum!

4. Calls for more activity several times, though his own posts have little in the way of actual content.

Yeahyeahyeah. My guess is that his partner is Gandalf due to his weak attack on Gandalf in his first post. But I don't really know. He could be scum with anyone, even Shotty.

[Crazy]

Oops, looks like I'm wrong with a bv/gandalf scumpair, then. Unless if gandalf is just waiting for bv to come in and vote first?

Since a Shotty/Edmund scumpair is no longer possible, I'll have to look at the remaining scumpairs to see which is most likely. From my perspective, the options are:

Shotty/Gandalf
Shotty/BV
Edmund/Gandalf
Edmund/BV

On first glance, it doesn't seem likely that Gandalf is scum with

either

Edmund or Shotty. From that logic, I'm thinking that BV is probably scum and either Edmund or Shotty is his scumpartner. Of course, that logic only really applies to me, since I'm the only one that knows my alignment, so I can't push that.

Shotty can go ahead and claim now, though. We're not goind to lynch anyone but Shotty or Edmund today, now.

[Crazy]

I reread both Shotty and edmund in isolation. Edmund doesn't really seem scummy at all, while Shotty comes off as scummy as I saw him before. Even though both were on the Andrew wagon, Shotty's attitude was way worse; he tried to talk Andrew into a corner and then exploded when he took Andrew's joke as a "scum-slip." Edmund's attacks were at least logical, and he even brought in some meta from a past game, which is a good sign.

I also don't like how within a span of two posts, Shotty went from "So Gandalf is the mason?" (rolefishing, too) to "I think the scumteam is Gandalf/Edmund." It's just horrible. BV is still my #1 scum suspect, but since either Shotty or Edmund has to be his partner, I'm pretty sure it's Shotty.

Vote: Shotty

[Crazy]

Yeah, I'm vanilla. I knew Gandalf was the mason, of course, since everyone else had claimed vanilla.

So

Vote: BV

. Gandalf's the swing vote now.

[Crazy]

BAH, I just made a post, but my computer ate it. I'll try to replicate it the best way I can:

Here's my earlier case I made against BV Day 2:

1. Hops on the Shotty policy lynch wagon, despite saying that he found Gandalf scummy.
2. Defends the Andrew wagon without giving any logic to why it's bad. His "go ahead and lynch me if he flips scum" really just makes him sound like scum trying to look good. Townies usually aren't confident enough to make such bold statements.
3. Says he'd lynch Shotty Day 2 even if he didn't think he was scum!
4. Calls for more activity several times, though his own posts have little in the way of actual content.

Now that Shotty has been revealed as scum, BV's attacks against Shotty Day 1 just look like bad distancing. He never provided any reasoning for why Shotty should be lynched, other than "policy," and he never even argued why a policy lynch was a good idea. Additionally, he continually pressured that Andrew was town, but again, with no reasoning whatsoever. I imagine what he was trying to do was set himself up so he's look good regardless of who was lynched Day 1. He also bet his own life that Andrew was town, and I really can't imagine that any townie could be

that

sure that he was.

On Day 2, he says he'd

still

be willing to lynch Shotty on policy. To me, the notion of policy lynching in LyLo is so ridiculous that I can't imagine any townie thinking of it. He later said that he did legitimately think that Shotty was scum, but again, provided no reasoning, so that nobody could follow up on it. Unsurprisingly, his only official FoS Day 2 ended up going towards Edmund.

As for associative tells from Shotty, he did make a weird random vote switch from Andrew to Far_Cry early Day 1. That's not much, but Shotty didn't mention BV very much.

Um, I imagine if BV tried to make a case against me, he'd mention that I defended Shotty throughout early Day 1, but really, I was just attacking the notion of a policy lynch, and I'm still against that idea in general. When Shotty started acting scummy, I did argue against him (using ACTUAL LOGIC, too, unlike BV), and if I had complete control, I would have lynched Shotty over Andrew on Day 1.

So, in conclusion, I guess the main argument against BV is that he never backed up his arguments with any logic. If I had to guess way, I'd imagine it would be because he didn't care, or he didn't want his arguments to be followed (because he was distancing against Shotty). Or maybe he just couldn't think of any way to explain his "opinions." Or he was just too lazy. Really, there's no good reason for it.

[Crazy]

Oh yeah, and I'll be glad to answer any questions from you, Gandalf, of course.

[Crazy]

BV has posted like 25 times elsewhere since his last post here, and I

know

he got that massprod just like I did.

[Crazy]

Yay!

I didn't figure I would pull off the win after I defended Shotty so hard Day 1, but after I started fighting against the policy lynch, I couldn't stop, because I think if Shotty was lynched Day 1, then I would have been screwed. Late Day 1 with the whole Shotty vs. Andrew thing, I was lurking, and I kind of avoided the whole thing - if I tried to lynch Andrew then that would totally out me as Shotty's partner, but if I tried to lynch Shotty, then that might backfire and Shotty might actually

be

lynched. I think Thor realized I was being ridiculously non-commital, but I don't think he knew it was because Shotty was my partner.

I suspected that Thor was a mason because of how strongly he was pushing against Shotty's lynch; if he was only a townie, then I think he'd be afraid that he'd accidentally out the mason pair by doing that. Even though I was scum, I still don't think policy lynching is a good idea in general; this is probably like the rare game where lynching Shotty Day 1 would have actually made the town win, since I hadn't had time yet to cover my tracks.

Shotty actually submitted the kill on Thor without my permission, but that was alright, because he was kind of an obvious kill - he was attacking both of us (and nobody questions NK-WIFOM anymore) and I thought he could be a mason. Turns out I was right.

After Thor flipped mason, it became logical that Gandalf was the other mason. I briefly attacked him Day 2, but I later realized that wasn't a good idea, because I'd never do that if I was town. So I flipped my sights to BV, who was actually pretty easy to paint as scum. Easier than Edmund, anyway; I don't even really know why he came up as a target. When Shotty voted Edmund, I didn't want to take either side right away; I was just waiting to see if a quicklynch was possible. When Gandalf said that he probably was going to vote Shotty, I jumped ahead and put Shotty at L-1, since I knew that would probably make me look better than BV on the next day.

I think Gandalf was surprised that he didn't die on Night 2. The reason I killed Edmund instead was because Gandalf was only confirmed mason to me, not to BV. For BV (as scum) to kill Gandalf, he would have had to take a slight risk. Edmund; however, was also nearly confirmed, so I killed him instead.

So... I hadn't played mafia in a while before this game, and I

rarely

won as scum. I think I've only won 3-ish times as scum in the past, and only 1 of those times I did anything to deserve it. I wasn't extremely active in this game, but I still had fun; I'll look forward to playing with some of you guys again.

[Crazy]

wait so gand is the mason?

Oh, and thank goodness that nobody noticed Shotty's scumslip here when he assumed that Gandalf was the mason, even though I hadn't claimed yet.