Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[Ythill]

Hi there. I was busy. Then I skimmed. Have to leave for work in a little while but will be back in about 10.5 hours to take another look @ this thread.

1. Some initial thoughts about the setup...
   
   
2. The vig should shoot the first person we put on guillotine. Since we cannot no-lynch, it is important to get that kill through so that we have an odd number of players. Best chance to do that is to shoot while the scum have the largest number of potential RB targets. Also, early information FTW.
   
3. We will probably want the vig and the redeemed soul to claim early. Not today, obv, but maybe tomorrow. If either gets CCed, we've gained a coinflip. If neither do, we have the beginnings of a sweet little voting bloc and will force the scum to kill them off, thus protecting our tracker.
   
4. We might consider requiring the person on guillotine to take on a leadership role in selecting the next lynch. Thus we will seed the thread with information to be exploited after the inevitable cardflip.

Discuss.

[Ythill]

Direct responses first...

@Sim:

Your narrow concept of what is good for the town is meaningless. Exploiting the setup is just as valuable as hunting for gaining available advantages. Getting people to comment on possible exploits can help us read them. Please stop being incompetent.

@SD:

We want that even-vote day to occur early in the game so no, it is not irrelevant. But I agree that putting the guillotine-rider in charge was kind of a hair-brained scheme.

@AGM:

Fair enough, though I personally believe that a cardflip is better than a doomed chatty kathy in the early game.

@Fate:

Don't need a big brother, thanks. Also, would you pretty please spin the sig:noise dial a little further towards sig.

[Ythill]

The scumz are: VPB + Luck + I'm guessing some lurker. Since they have the same number of votes on them...

VOTE: VP Baltar

SD is slightly more scum than town so far but it seems such things are to be expected.

Crypto is the towniest town who ever towned. Fate's not far behind him but needs to drink less caffeine. People who think either of them are scummy should be slapped. Other likely town include Anti, Concis, and Sim.

Everyone else is meh. And I'm really glad UK isn't in this game; can you imagine how annoying she'd be on guillotine?

[Ythill]

@Ythill - Your reads are pretty shitty so far this game.

Shitty for your team, yes.

[Ythill]

Damn ninja's.

@SD:

Anti is likely town. Please try to pay attention.

[Ythill]

I made a mistake in giving my reads last night. For some reason, I was logging Sim's scumtells in the towntell column. Blame the cyclobenzaprine. Anyway, I went back and proofread my notes. Move Sim to the null-leaning scum category (where SD is) and they are otherwise accurate.

I see that people are asking me to explain my town reads. That's something I rarely (if ever) do and I'm not going to start now.

VPB is scum for several reasons, the most important of which are:

• Aggression in response to a fair question #34.
  
• Cognitive dissonance, in that a town-aligned player with his stated views should be more suspicious of crypto by #78.
  
• His scummy lean toward voting for the lead wagon in #108.

I argue we want the vig, redeemed soul, and tracker to claim at one day before must lynch.

Why? So one of your teammates can CC to force a coinflip @ LYLO?

Thing is, other than being semi-confirmed, both of those roles are entirely useless. It could be argued that the vig is detrimental to us in the late game because he can put us in a situation where all of the townies

must

vote together to lynch scum. Meanwhile, having the tracker alive in LYLO gives us at least as much info as the other roles combined, with the potential of much more info (if we lynch scum or the tracker targets them before that point).

Noting here that a town-aligned player with your views should be accusing me of role fishing at this point. Why haven't you?

On a completely unrelated note, I find it entertaining that I am in a game with both Fate and Luck.

[Ythill]

Ohai crypto. A special VPB scumtell for you. His entrance and early game here feel different than in OR&C.

And yay for a wagon on scum!

UNVOTE: VPB
VOTE: LuckayLuck

[Ythill]

My stance on the roles: they're all quite worthless, but they are, at the very least, semi-confirmed. I would like these semi-confirmed players to be alive, as opposed to dead, which is why I encourage claiming as late as possible (though not as late as must lynch - just the day before).

Meh. It seems we are arguing the same thing. When I wrote that list of strats, I mistakenly thought of "three available" mislynches as meaning that the third lynch is LYLO, but it means that the 4th lynch is. So, yeah... as early as D3. However, earlier claims do protect the tracker, who is far more valuable, and have the potential to flesh out a bloc.

@Fate:

Luck and VPB are scum. Anti is probably not. Deal with it.

[Ythill]

FFS, can we lynch Luck yet?

@Fate:

Remember your "welp" after Jarti touted his own work ethic (isos on page 5)? Look back at Luck's first post. It's welp-worthy and he's only gone downhill since then.

Anyway... Jarti and Zor both earned townie brownies with their most recent posts.

[Ythill]

What's a mini 880?

I responded to your case...you have nothing to say in reply?

I'm not going to argue with you about my conclusions. If I'm right, I'm not letting you manipulate me. If I'm wrong, demonstrate it to me through your play.

This is some major BS right here. Why? What are we rushing for at the moment?

My statement was more about Luck's increasing scumminess than the timetable, but I can see how it could be taken that way.

@Luck:

Thanks for quoting that post. Others should note you buddying to the aggressors, touting your own work ethic (welp), and chaining reads on page 2. That's 3/9 of the tells I've got listed for you, all in your first post. Good job.

[Ythill]

You've never played with me as town.

[Ythill]

@VPB:

I used to be an arguer. I've since found that it doesn't help me find scum. Quite the opposite, actually. There are still places where I will argue with people but this isn't one of them. I didn't state my case against you to debate it with you, I stated it because people were asking me to and I figured they wanted to get a read on me.

I am not "so convinced" that Conc is town, I just think he's somewhat more likely town than scum. And I'm still not explaining why.

@Fate:

Oh, I forgot about that one. But I don't see how that's relevant to your jibe. I found scum 2/3 days that I was alive.

[Ythill]

As townie as you seem to me, this stance you're taking is terribly scummy. If I'm town I'm wrong and if I'm right I'm scum? Way to discredit me no matter what I say.

But whatever.

[Ythill]

One more vote on VPB and I'll switch back.

Also, noting that we need more vote movement in general.

[Ythill]

One more vote on VPB and I'll switch back.

Re: VP: y u no vote?

Vote: VP

Happy?

Noted.

But I'll keep my word anyway.
UNVOTE: Luck
VOTE: VP Baltar

[Ythill]

Moving Anti back to null and Percy to prob-town as of this post. Neither by a large margin.

[Ythill]

If you really think that L-4 wagons are going to provide good info for future days, then you should probably learn how to play this game.

Since you seem intent on wasting space on a pointless argument...

1) People that ask dumb questions in response to things that are actually trying to get the game moving get my ire.
2) Meh, not necessarily. Read my above post to Percy. crypto explained himself as having had very little sleep by that point. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not. I'm inclined to think not based upon my feeling from his words.
3) This one is completely ludicrous because I was one of the people actually questioning antitown. See post 87 onward. It's pretty clear that I'm giving AT the benefit of the doubt and trying to get him to explain his Fate stance...as opposed to several people that came later and essentially sheeped onto him.

1. Either I am wrong or you are lying. Tell tally says it's the latter.
   
2. You really want me to respond to "meh, not necessarily?" Same response as above.
   
3. Your reply here doesn't even make sense. You're acting like I accused you of a scummy vote when it was you leaning towards suspicion that I was talking about. Plus, why are you now speaking of Anti as if you know he's a mislynch?

And I've finished a mini-normal in ten pages, as town, so now you know where you can stick the "rushing is scummy" thing.

[Ythill]

Why the concern, Fate?

Missed this part of VPs response...

As far as meta from your game, that's ludicrous. 1) You were the mod of that game and had perfect knowledge of the setup, therefore you may have found that I looked more accurate or whatever in my scumhunting early on because you knew who the scum were. 2) You have not played with me as far as I remember, so you're using half a meta from a single game at best. That's complete bunk and you've been around long enough to know that.

This sounds like a lot of blather. Your tone and play seem different here than they did in a very recent game where you were town. Nothing you have said challenges these facts. Crypto, who was a player in that game, agrees that there is a difference.

[Ythill]

Ythill, you were a mod in that game and you are a player in this game. Discuss.

I don't understand how it makes any difference. If being a player in the game is required, then all the meta that people get from reading completed games is worthless, and I don't think anyone here believes that.

@Fate:

Yeah, I saw that. And got the prima facie implications but it's still too early to chain alignments and VP is still scummier than Anti. If you feel really strongly about it, we could probably compromise on Luck, yes? I mean, if the Anti vote means that VP is town in your eyes, then doesn't the timing suggest that Luck is an Anti buddy?

[Ythill]

What alignments did I chain in that post?

Anti-scum = VPB-town.

You know, I was thinking about voting Red too. He's not on my scumlist ATM but this seems like a good time for an impromptu lurker wagon, especially in concert with my strongest town-reads.

UNVOTE: VPB
VOTE: RedCoyote

Everybody sheep this. L-2 or bust.

[Ythill]

You know you love it.

[Ythill]

[Ythill]

@Fate:

It's not about what I want. It's just that saying definitively that Anti-scum = anything before we get an Anti-scum flip is putting the cart before the horse. FTR, I didn't mean to say that you doing it is scummy, just that it's unreliable.

Also, people who have posted without voting Red need to learn to listen to me.

[Ythill]

Who said lynch? Quit'cher dirty vote-parking.

[Ythill]

WTF do you keep calling him Antimage? Has there been a BM alt reveal somewhere that I missed?

[Ythill]

Offering cool drinks isn't very tempting with that avatar. Just sayin.

[Ythill]

I was just using him to derail the VP wagon.

Heh. VPB is still the lynch du jour.

Way to fail.

[Ythill]

May the best man win.

I'm pretty sure we're on the same team.

People need to stop lurking.

[Ythill]

@Anti:

What are your reads of Luck, Percy, and Shadow Dancer?

@Shadow:

Please explain the "bad vibes" you got from Jarti by quoting and commenting.

@Sim:

Best guess at a three-man scumteam please, or at least your top three suspects.

@Red:

After Big Love, you should know very well how important vote movement and grouping is. Please stop throwing your vote away.

[Ythill]

This is a good point, Ythill. You seem very eager to get a lynch going.

Did you miss the part where I explained what I meant by that statement or do you think I was lying? I was using bombast to say "Luck is getting even scummier." Even if you don't believe me, note the part where I have been known to be impatient as town.

And got the prima facie implications but

it's still too early to chain alignments

and VP is still scummier than Anti. If you feel really strongly about it, we could probably compromise on Luck, yes? I mean, if the Anti vote means that VP is town in your eyes, then doesn't the timing suggest that

Luck is an Anti buddy?

You should pay more attention to the parts you didn't emphasize. Context is key here because "I don't think doing A is wise but if you insist then let's at least find a more helpful way of doing A," is not a contradiction.

We're less than a week into this game, big man. Maybe I'm not around enough for Sim to be a major contender, but this is worth a go in my eyes.

"Big man" has my hackles up a little but that's beside the point. Thing is, being less than a week into this game is exactly why it's pointless for you to be stubbornly parked on your top suspect. Now is the time to generate info. I'm going to reiterate: you've seen very recently and dynamically how important D1 vote-grouping is to my D3+ VCAs. Please act accordingly. If you insist on voting Sim, then put some effort into rallying that wagon. Otherwise, do some sheeping/compromising/whatever. Pretty please.

Here is the words of wisdom for the day, when an otherwise logical and thorough thinker stops being logical and thinking thoroughly, it's probably because

s/he has an ulterior motive

it's D1 and there is no reliable information upon which to base thorough logic

.

FTFY.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: Red
VOTE: Shadow Dancer

Please respond to #300.

[Ythill]

I may be interested in that AGM wagon, but keeping my vote on SD FTM.

(And hi Jarti, now warm seats and cool drinks seem much more appealing. Especially warm seats. )

[Ythill]

Luck is still getting scummier by the post.

[Ythill]

Just because I haven't summarized in awhile...

Scum

Luck (by a lot)
VPB
Shadow, Sim
AGM
Anti
Conc, Red
Jarti, Zor
Percy
Fate
crypto

Town

[Ythill]

Like I said, I'll probably be up for an AGM wagon in a bit. Maybe even tonight. It would help me move more quickly if SD would stop ignoring me.

@Anti:

What are your reads of Luck, Percy, and Shadow Dancer?

@Shadow:

Please explain the "bad vibes" you got from Jarti by quoting and commenting.

@Sim:

Best guess at a three-man scumteam please, or at least your top three suspects.

[Ythill]

@VPB:

Why is it necessary for me to vote my top suspect at this juncture? I'll vote my townreads on D1 if it leads to information.

@Luck:

It's not your playstyle. I'll probably get into exactly what it is a little later, but not to let you "argue me away from it."

he actual aggressiveness isn't as much the issue as it is that I didn't like how you hadn't really given LL anything to defend himself against.

I'm not really interested in defenses at this juncture. One of the reasons I'm so effective at finding the scumz after replacing in is that I get to weigh behavioral tells without arguing about them. I'd rather not lose to a convincing liar.

Anyway... money where my mouth is...

UNVOTE: SD
VOTE: AlmasterGM L-2

[Ythill]

t makes absolutely no sense to vote your third scum suspect down (or whatever SD was on your list) for 'information' today when you could be putting the heat on and lynching someone you are utterly convinced is scum. Maybe we just play differently, but once I have a strong scum read, I'm not letting go until that person is dead.

I am fully capable of being wrong and, even if I'm right, there's more than one scumbag. Weren't you the guy lambasting me for being in a hurry to lynch him not long ago?

Maybe we just play differently, but once I have a strong scum read, I'm not letting go until that person is dead.

Aren't you supposed to be pretending you think I'm scum?

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: AGM L-2 is enough for now.

Working on a post.

[Ythill]

Sorry, crypto, not interested in a roleclaim.

This has been an excellent page. Crypto keeps earning brownies and VPB even got some. SD looks a lot worse, not because he placed the L-1 vote but because the manner in which he did so was scumilicous. And Zor is claim-fishing but you already knew that.

Does anyone else find Re' Coyo's tone/attitude kinda whack?

Meh. Maybe, but I remember him being similarly whack as town.

Ythill, what exactly is scummy about LL again?

Again? Well, I pointed out 3/9 of the tells I had in #218 (buddying to the aggressors, touting his own work ethic, and chaining reads on page 2, all in his first post). Haven't mentioned the others yet, but the tally is now up to 12. Will probably get into them soonish.

[Ythill]

Oops, forgot to put my vote back in play.

Considering an Anti vote for the lulz and OMGs, and to see what happens, but I suppose I'll get enough of all that by voting the guy I just said gained a little town cred.

VOTE: VP Baltar He's still scummier than most and he's the main competitor. Fireworks, please.

[Ythill]

Hey, if you can get a wagon on me, kudos. Info is info.

[Ythill]

You still haven't answered the question adequately. Just sayin.

[Ythill]

@SD:

I just mean that you were pretty vague and backpedaled at the end. It could be that I was taking your suspicion as more serious than it was, but what you've said does not seem like enough reason to have someone in your top three at this juncture.

FTR, I

didn't

assign scumpoints for your inadequate answer. Just felt disappointment.

[Ythill]

I got some bad vibes from Con, Sim and Jarty.
I am also a bit suspicious of Percy and Alma right now...

This seems like a pretty clear division between top three and secondary suspicions. Are you telling me that it is not?

@VPB:

I haven't changed directions. What I've done is changed my vote. Those are different things.

[Ythill]

Skimmed most of the posts on this page. Will read them thoroughly when I get home from work. Wanted to reply to this...

You seem to me to be saying you're interested in applying pressure to your top scum reads...

That is not at all what I am saying. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and suggest that you check out some of my recent games. Since Geezer, I've been a big fan of card-flip augmented VCAs. As each day passes, more and more players on these D1 wagons are going to be revealed as town or scum. Plus I already know my own alignment. When I say "create information" I'm not talking about pressuring people, I'm talking about having a good number of large bandwagons that I can use in the mid-game to determine where the scum are. For such things, town vote movement, grouping, and compromises are key.

IMO, a vote is a tool. I can use it to lynch someone but that is far from the extent of its usefulness. If I'm alive beyond D3, a lot of the stuff I've been doing here is going to start making more sense. That's when you're going to see me being more focused and intent on getting my top suspects lynched. Until then... well... lynch me or don't. Your view of my alignment is really kinda beside the point.

[Ythill]

WTF? Sepia looks different. Grumble... Okay, well, I read the rest of those posts like I said I would. Not too much to comment on except: holy hoppin' Jesus on a toast platter, Luck earned himself townie brownie!

It was what I had in mind like two days ago before even ISOing every one and commenting.

*headdesk* You had someone in your top three. I asked why. You waited awhile and then iso'd him and then explained your

current

views which were more forgiving. And you wonder why I am saying you didn't actually answer my question. Fuuuuuuuuu...

Just forget it.

Why do you buy an AGM wagon when he's so high up your list?

Not sure I understand your question. Could you rephrase, please? Also, could you state your top 3-4 suspects. Your last post was a little too wishy-washy.

[Ythill]

I can see LL's argument that that would help scum to scan the town for the tracker more effectively, but that is true only if scum do not use their NK to eliminate the vig and RS - in which case we'd have confirmed townies for multiple days which adds up to quite a great advantage.

Right. Also, note that the longer we wait before getting these claims, the smaller the pool is for scum to pick off the tracker. Another point, the sooner they claim, the less likely it is that the tracker wastes an investigation on them. Obviously this is pretty moot until tomorrow but I want to be clear about this in case I get shot tonight. I really think the vig should claim and shoot first thing in the morning, and then the RS should claim. At that point, we force the scum to choose between tracker hunting (which allows a bloc core to live and lets the tracker make it bigger if they miss) or killing off the PRs (which means that the tracker will either increase the size of that bloc or get a guilty by the time they are done). Either way, town advantage.

There are scenarios that are better for the town, but they rely on the scum missing repeatedly with their cop, RB, and kill, which seems like a long shot.

@AGM:

For the most part, your logic seems sound. I think your stances are a bit convenient and of course you know I'm rolling my eyes at the fact that it took L-1 pressure to make you analyze the game like this.

making a mountain out of a molehill

Both Conc's attack and VPB's OMGUS response happened very early in the game. There were nothing but molehills. What do you expect people to do at that point?

Isn't this a blatant misrep?

Not really. It is entirely reasonable for someone to read my statement as rushing the day. It's not actually what I was doing but I don't fault VPB for taking it that way. I think Red's stance on the subject was far worse because he brought up and agreed with VPB's original point long after I had addressed it and long after my behavior had demonstrated that I was not interested in ending the day quickly.

[Ythill]

Holy eyebleed, Luck.

I'm tired and that is a lot of text to wade through. Putting it off until tomorrow.

[Ythill]

Why are you deleting the context from my post?

I expect people can remember it for at least a few minutes. My point: yes, VPB was wrong to make that accusation in the early game and now you are too. I don't think it's indicative of your alignment.

I will comment again on how landslide wagon occurred on AlimasterGM but specifically not on Antitown. Maybe because the scum felt okay to vote Alimaster, but not Antitown.

The people voting AGM who were not on Anti's largest wagon were: crypto, Jarti, RedCoyote, and myself. Luck has two as town and one as null. Cognitive dissonance.

Also noting the following series of events: Luck is making posts of moderate length (check iso). AGM comes under pressure and then posts a WoT that gains him town cred. Luck then posts a similar attempt.

But I'm interested, and so should every other town-aligned player. You understand that, don't you?

I'll keep my own council on how to play. If VPB is town, it will show in what he does, not what he says.

I hope that neither Fate nor crypto is a PR.

[Ythill]

As promised, a summary of the points I have against Luck.

• #27: Already mentioned these: buddying to the aggressors, touting his own work ethic, chaining alignments way too early.
  
• #96: Ad populum. Plus, is Luck looking for roles rather than alignments?
  
• #171: Luck is sheeping some pretty weak points. Adds another ad populum appeal.
  
• #172: Already mentioned this: cognitive dissonance in that a player with Luck's stated views should suspect me.
  
• #175+ (page 8): Luck's activity increases under mild pressure.
  
• #204-205: His tone demonstrates that he is reacting emotionally to the pressure but he does not show typical town reactions of questioning his attacker's alignment, accuracy, or intelligence.
  
• #268: Indicated this by giving him an oscar: pressure has faded on Luck but he is still intent on gaining town cred, to the tune of posting a pro-self propaganda speech.
  
• #274: Excessive buddying.
  
• #323: A sheepy populist lean. Terribad.
  
• #423: Slippery defenses vs. AGM. He strawmans the "maybe town" point to be about is choice of words when it is actually about his failure to get a read on a dynamic player (who is probably his scumbuddy, btw). Also treats the "you can't lynch me" question as being about his "friendly" playstyle when it is clearly about the fact that a particular post lacked townie motivation.
  
• #423-425: Already mentioned these: uncharacteristic WoT follows someone using a WoT to gain cred, plus cognitive dissonance in that his conclusions do not follow one of his major points.

As an aside... I've found it very entertaining reading Luck's pleas about his title and playstyle. He acts as if being interested in playing this as a team game sets him apart and should therefore grant him leeway as a misunderstood townie. Luck is obviously unaware of my meta as a bloc player. What's most interesting about this is his stance on claim-timing. It was specifically my tendency to look for a mutual town-read voting group that inspired the early-claim plan. Luck says he plays like I do, but he came to the opposite conclusion. My theory is that he really does play like that, that he understood all along the advantage that the town stands to gain, and that he made the poor choice of arguing a site myth (claims should always come late) in spite of his own admitted beliefs, supporting a stance that -considering those same beliefs- clearly indicates his alignment.

[Ythill]

It clearly wasn't a "Aha! Everyone's calling AGM a townie now! I should do the same thing."

Fate (who you've been concerned about) had unvoted. I (your most outspoken attacker) had posted my favorable opinion of his WoT.

This is why arguing is pointless.

[Ythill]

The point is that you're not being consistent with your words of who is scum and who is not.

Bullshit. My reads have developed consistently with the evidence.

Please explain.

I already did. What you quoted was prompted by #323. Now look two posts above yours.

[Ythill]

Thank you.

[Ythill]

If one more person brings up the "voting is a tool, not a liability" thing and then goes on to jab someone for voting the wrong person, I may facepalm myself into unconsciousness. Voting is both a tool and a liability.

Vig tomorrow before shot and VS maybe even ASAP.

Excuse me? They claim together or not at all. Period.

Hmmm, I don't know if I'd characterise AGM's positions as "convenient". Which ones are you thinking of?

Which one's wasn't I? His scumlist might have been titled "Some People Suspected Heavily by the Outspoken" and his town list is so common around here, someone could copyright it for a profit. Noting again that this was an OtOH point, for posterity.

I'm adding my voice to the anti-WoT choir. Please be brief. If people have questions, they can ask.

That said, a lot has happened since I posted last. Luck's gotten scummier, SD has sped past VPB (who has gained a wee bit o' cred). I've solidified my major townreads. I'll mention that the Sim-read see-saw is creeping back toward town, but not by much. Ironically, my null read on Anti has been slipping downward a bit.

I'm not interested in lynching Conc, or a claim.

UNVOTE: VPB
VOTE: LuckayLuck

Checking something else. More in a sec...

[Ythill]

An exercise in critical thinking for you. Take the five largest bandwagons. Cross off any player who has been on three or more because that player is wagoning shamelessly. Cross off any player who has been on only one because no comparison data is available. Identify those players who have been on exactly two and look for similarities.

• Antitown:
  LuckayLuck, Simenon, Fate
  , Shadow Dancer (L-4)
  crypto
  (would have been L-3 except Sim defected)
  
• LuckayLuck:
  Jarti,
  Simenon, crypto, Ythill
  (L-4)
  
• AlmasterGM:
  crypto
  , Jarti,
  Simenon, Fate
  , RedCoyote,
  Ythill
  , Shadow Dancer (L-1)
  
• VP Baltar:
  Concission, AlmasterGM, Percy
  , Antitown,
  Ythill
  (L-3)
  
• Concission:
  crypto, VP Baltar
  , GLaDOS,
  Fate, zoraster, Simenon
  , RedCoyote (L-1)

Shadow Dancer's wagons have little in common except the players who voted before him and the fact that they were loudly supported. Jarti's wagons have nothing in common. No info. Anti/GL's wagons have both been the most recent contenders while he was a valid fallback suspect: a little more suspicious but still mostly null.

RC has been on both of the lurker wagons but not on those of the people around to defend themselves. Points in the scum column for sure.

[Ythill]

Oh, I get it. You're talking as if you're a computer. Someday we should have an invitational with all of the accounts that play in character. You could be in it, and Zorblag (who talks like a troll), my TLJ alt (who talks like Jesus), and the Master Yoda alt that several of us have discussed making.

And we could invite Luck too, because he talks like a scumbag. Or maybe that's just his role PM.

I think it's time we found out.

[Ythill]

At this point I'd happily lynch: Luck, Shadow, Red, or VPB (in order of preference). Would compromise on GLaDOS or AGM. I agree that we should move toward ending the day.

What's WoT?

Wall of Text. Aka filling the thread with noise, mental masturbation, not knowing when to shut up, etc.

[Ythill]

It's true though. You got that scum role PM whether you do anything or not.

[Ythill]

How about we play a new game called competing bandwagons.

Loving this idea.

If we lynch Luck today and then vig him first thing tomorrow, we will have fewer wall posts.

I'd readily move my vote to Shadow or Red. VPB too, but I doubt he'd provide the kind of polarizing competition we need.

@Shadow:

Put your vote back into play please.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: Luck
VOTE: RedCoyote
Gogogo.

I'm going to pretend this means that everyone loves me instead of everyone hates me and wants me dead.

Actually, it means you are hard to lynch. So hopefully I was wrong about you being scum.

[Ythill]

I don't even know what to say at this point. Lack of activity is frustrating.

I'm dissatisfied with the Conc lynch because it is terrible. I've got her at null with a slight town lean. Behaviorally, she feels like a townie who lacks the time or motivation to keep up. Her wagon is filled with lame-sauce votes and contains two of my top four suspects; meanwhile, building a competing wagon has been like pulling teeth. It feels like the dissenters are happy to let her be a deadline lynch.

There are four people in this game who are decidedly suspicious. We should lynch one of them.

[Ythill]

Mod: Please prod Percy and (in an hour) Sim.

I hadn't said anything in my ruleset about requesting prods if they're in the "gap" of my prod-checking method, but on reflection that's a completely sensible policy. Proding Percy now. Will prod Simenon in an hour-ish if he's still absent.

[Ythill]

I don't want to really push out the hyperbole, but it was, by all accounts, completely constructed with one agenda in mind: to make me look bad. He crosses out every player except for me, you, Antitown, and SD. Then he concludes that everyone looks good except for me. That's not critical thinking; it's a fucking parlor trick.

You sound kinda like ZeroFang did in Big Love.

Did you stop to think that pointing out how much you love scum games and that you've got death looming just over your shoulder and then whining about shoddy treatment sounds an awful lot like a scumbag who's tasted sour grapes? Sorry to bust you, dude, but that's the nature of the game.

Also, there was no cake.

[Ythill]

Oh and, FTR, the post above this one was completely constructed to make you look bad. Now you have an example of what that actually looks like.

[Ythill]

That's hilarious.

[Ythill]

Red is now the lead wagon @ L-3.

This game is moving way too slowly.

[Ythill]

Heh. Luck's sooooo convinced that GLaD is scum, and yet answers her questions conversationally and seems concerned about being seen as more suspicious by her. It astounds me that we haven't lynched him yet.

Yeah, I know we're wagoning Red and all that but... srsly.

[Ythill]

Yes, I'm concerned about being seen as more suspicious by her slandering of my name in her sudden twist on me after I've presented a well thought out case.

You're still doing it. Here's a tip for the next time you play as scum: if you were town and believed she was scum, you'd believe she was lying and wouldn't be trying to convince her that she is wrong.

VPB has put Red @ L-2 and my paranoia wants to cite that as evidence of a VPB-LL scumteam but I'm going to resist that urge.

[Ythill]

If any one of you can't see how uber-scummy LL and SD are acting here, then I don't think there is a numeric system large enough to quantify how much you suck at mafia.

UNVOTE: Red
VOTE: LuckayLuck

That said, I am ready to end this day and Red is scummy enough by himself to be the D1 lynch. If he is placed @ L-1 and claims VT, I will return to hammer him. (If he claims anything else, CC should be withheld until dawn on D2. Just sayin.)

[Ythill]

What kind of echo adds circumlocution?

Weird.

[Ythill]

Same as last time except called four-voters shameless and noted the behavior of the lone wagoners (in italics).

• Antitown:
  LuckayLuck
  ,
  Simenon, Fate
  , Shadow Dancer (L-4)
  crypto
  (would have been L-3 except Sim defected)
  
• LuckayLuck:
  Jarti,
  Simenon, crypto, Ythill
  (L-4)
  
• AlmasterGM:
  crypto
  , Jarti,
  Simenon, Fate
  , RedCoyote,
  Ythill
  , Shadow Dancer (L-1)
  
• VP Baltar:
  Concission
  , AlmasterGM,
  Percy
  , Antitown,
  Ythill
  (L-3)
  
• Concission:
  crypto
  , VP Baltar, GLaDOS,
  Fate
  ,
  zoraster
  ,
  Simenon
  , RedCoyote (L-1)
  
• RedCoyote:
  GLaDOS,
  Fate, Ythill
  , Jarti, AlmasterGM, VP Baltar, Shadow Dancer (L-1)

SD has been no earlier than third on selective wagons but has placed two L-1 votes, scumpoints for him. Luck, Conc, Percy, and zor are either wagon shy or lurking. Scumpoints for all four. GlaD's patterns seem a bit like posturing but it may be a playstyle thing. Null. Nothing new on Red.

The voting patterns of Jarti, VPB, and AGM gain them town points. Not saying why.

This will all be much prettier and more useful once we have two cardflips and a pair of confirmed townies.

[Ythill]

BTW...

UNVOTE: Luck
VOTE: Shadow Dancer

[Ythill]

Hi there bad monkey.

[Ythill]

Jarti is town, scumbag. Bus Shadow.

[Ythill]

@Luck:

I've provided explicitly zero reasoning on why I view

anyone

as town. Nor do I intend to provide it in the future.

[Ythill]

Sorry, I'm getting bored.

[Ythill]

Hey, I had an idea that might help move us forward.

Everyone vote for their top suspect. No compromising.

(Seriously, just do it, I'll explain why after it happens.)

UNVOTE: SD
VOTE: LuckayLuck

[Ythill]

@Conc:

I'm not compromise voting until we're done with this. Is Sim your top suspect?

@Fate:

Please quit screwing around. Do you want to end this day or not?

Thank you to those players who have played along. The following players still need to vote or confirm explicitly that they are currently voting for their top suspect: GLaD, Conc, zor, crypto, Fate, VV, Red, and VPB. Again, please don't compromise. Vote for the person you would target with a daykill if you had one.

The quicker we do this, the quicker we can move on.

[Ythill]

Thanks you two. Please keep them in place until everyone has voted.

@Fate:

Why are you afraid to commit? This isn't about who you will hammer. This is about who you personally wish to lynch today.

Still need vote/confirm from GLaD, Conc, crypto, Fate, VV, and Red.

[Ythill]

EBWOP: Please keep them in place until everyone has voted

and we get a subsequent vote count

.

[Ythill]

Still need vote/confirm from GLaD, Conc, crypto, and Red.

Then a votecount.

[Ythill]

It's not different from mafia. It's different from whatever we were doing a while ago.

[Ythill]

Still need vote/confirm from Conc and Red.

[Ythill]

I think it's probably safe to take Conc's vote change as to being on his top suspect, even though he didn't explicitly agree to play along. Here we are then...

Vote Count #27

Simenon:

Vigilante Ventriloquist, RedCoyote,

LuckayLuck

, Concission, Fate (L-4)

Concission:

cypto, Simenon, VP Baltar,

zoraster

LuckayLuck:

Ythill, AlmasterGM, Jarti

RedCoyote:

GLaDOS,

Jarti

,

AlmasterGM

, Shadow Dancer

Jarti:

LuckayLuck

Shadow Dancer:

zoraster

Fate:

Fate

Not voting:

No one.

If the deadline were to fall now, with all of us voting our top suspects, Simenon would be on the guillotine. We can wait and try to shake something lose if y'all want to, but this is where we stand right now. I'm ready to end the day. Though Sim's not high on my suspect list, he's also not high on my town list, and there are at least a couple of townies on his wagon.

UNVOTE: Luck
VOTE: Simenon

We need three more.

[Ythill]

So close to ending the day. Sigh.

Sim claimed VT and should have been hammered. Now we're stuck in the mud again except the scum have a better chance of hitting a PR tonight if he's town.

Double scumpoints for VPB for placing the L-1, demanding a claim, and then calling for wagon dissolution, all while stating the opinion that Sim is town. Does he seriously play this poorly as town?

[Ythill]

EBWOP: By "he" I meant VPB, not Sim.

[Ythill]

Well herp a derp, I actually like to lynch scum. You really think Simenon is scum or just a lynch to end the day?

I think Sim is not clearly town, which is enough at this point. More importantly, I think that it gives the scum a

huge

advantage if we wagon-to-claim any person whom we are unwilling to hammer immediately after a vanilla claim.

I think you know this. I think you knew it when you voted to L-1 and demanded a claim from someone you thought was probably town and I think you knew it when you then unvoted and ordered the wagon to disperse. Which begs the question, why are you playing to a scum wincon?

[Ythill]

@Fate:

I'll move my vote to hammer where applicable. Until then my stance is that we should hang the guy who (1) would be lynched at deadline if we are all voting straight and (2) already claimed VT.

[Ythill]

Damnit. My plan would have worked too, if I wasn't the damned tracker.

[Ythill]

Me either. Too slow and, even with optimal role play, balanced to favor scum.

[Ythill]

I don't think the delayed flips favor town either.

the way this game played out (i.e tracker dead N1)

This is not a fluke but, rather, indicative of a major flaw. Whenever the loss of one specific role skews the game this much, it is evidence of an imbalance in the role distribution.

Setup aside, I liked Hito's modding.

[Ythill]

My most recent game used a delayed kill mechanic.