Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[Shadow Dancer]

Hi, every one.
Especially AGM. HI!
D I kow any one else?
Oh, yeah, Fate sounds familiar... That allcaps shit sure does. But maybe I am confusing him with somebody else. But I think this Allcaps and OMGUS is just his style...
Antitown faking a post restriction? I hope there's gonna be more than bad prose...
I approve strategy discussion any time, but Baltar's attempt seems in deed a bit strange. Why not ask every one or at least make some real random questions to have every one post?
Anyway, I think I'll join and

vote Percy

at least until he stops posting but bad memes.

[Shadow Dancer]

You make no sense.
How would a discussion on the lineup help you determine if Crypto is scum?

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm agogly waiting...

[Shadow Dancer]

I hope that was rather a joke on both our parts, because I do not really expect Anti to postz in that style when the game becomes more serious.

Strange like likely not the best way to start a discussion since it wholy depends on one player (i.e. you) to answer a question that is not player specific. I was wondering why he would specifically ask you.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmm... Now that some one metioned it I just realized it seems to be missing in the rules - whoever is on the guillotine loses his/her vote?

@Baltar: So now after Crypto has answered: What did his answer tell you about his allignment?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Baltar: I am not ignoring your question, I just did not understand it first. By "lineup" I meant "setup" ;\ My bad.
Of course Crypto is thinking about the setup - you asked him to do so. But how do you consider asking him about the setup scum-hunting?

@Crypto: Seriously: No idea. I am trying to find out what he was up to.
I don't understand your last post...

[Shadow Dancer]

5) Kinda defies the purpose, don't you think. If you asked him and only him specifically he'd of course think about the setup...
So I don't really agree with the validity of that as a scum-hunting tactic, but I agree that this discussion looks like going nowhere.
But talking about the setup - as understand it something similar has already been done. Was any one in that game and can tell a bit how that on played out, especially the lynch mechanic?

@Hito: Thanks for clearing that up.

@Alma: The right question is: Do you consider it scummy?

[Shadow Dancer]

...OK... O_o

[Shadow Dancer]

[*]The vig should shoot the first person we put on guillotine. Since we cannot no-lynch, it is important to get that kill through so that we have an odd number of players. Best chance to do that is to shoot while the scum have the largest number of potential RB targets. Also, early information FTW.

Hmm... I am too lazy to read through the rules again, so I'll just ask:

@mod: Would a blocked vig shot just go wasted or count as not executed and bullet preserved?

But anyway this sounds like a good plan. At least it minimizes the chance that the vig is stopped in some way and gives some confirmed information early on.
However, we'll always play with an even number of players to select from and an odd number of voting players (with the exeption of D0), and no matter what we do LyLo can only be adjourned by guillotineing scum. So I'd consider that aspect irrelevant.

[*]We will probably want the vig and the redeemed soul to claim early. Not today, obv, but maybe tomorrow. If either gets CCed, we've gained a coinflip. If neither do, we have the beginnings of a sweet little voting bloc and will force the scum to kill them off, thus protecting our tracker.

We've got like... 3(?) mislynches... Also sounds like an idea worth considering to me.

[*]We might consider requiring the person on guillotine to take on a leadership role in selecting the next lynch. Thus we will seed the thread with information to be exploited after the inevitable cardflip.[/list]
Discuss.

I am not so convinced of this one... The person on the guillotine will deinintely not be the most trustworthy one. Could backfire - or town will just ignore the "leader". Insisting on a high activity level of the lynchee would be a good idea though - but hard to force upon him/her since he/she's already dead anyway... I predict massive WIFOM.

[Shadow Dancer]

unvote. cote Anti

Mimicing Fate and hot air is not enough.

@Simenon: How is discussing strategies that actually

can

aid in scumhunting by generating information, ensuring good use of town PRs and lowering down choices ... bad or whatever (do you consider it scummy?)

[Shadow Dancer]

I just realized it's ytually a dayvig role O_o Thank you, anyway.

[Shadow Dancer]

...actually...

[Shadow Dancer]

There's reason - faking scumhunting can take a while compared to the real thing.

[Shadow Dancer]

/Check

Also don't like Ythill's call to discuss something other than the previous four pages and something unlikely to aid in scumhunting

Better way of putting it: setup questions are fine. "I haven't read the thread, but here are some ideas about the setup, discuss them now" isn't.

/no match...

At least his last post finally made sense...

[Shadow Dancer]

Explain, I don't get what you're saying.

Pity.

Ythill is town.

/discussion

Fate is scum.

Discuss.

Copycat...

How is that garbage?

Hot air.

Emphasis on we. The same could be said about you, no?

"no, you!" - more fluff.

I won't provide this free service to you every time, dude.

[Shadow Dancer]

I am lost.

Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim then. It's kind of hard without justice in my hands.

"Teach me how to not provoke suspicion"

[Shadow Dancer]

I'm agogly waiting...

Was this supposed to be eagerly? How do you mispell a word that badly?
I mean, I guess this isn't game related, it's just... wow...

O_o Whatever was amok-bouncing in my head there... You understood it anyway.

[Shadow Dancer]

@SD:

Anti is likely town. Please try to pay attention.

I am listening with full attention to what you've got to bring forth!

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh, wow. So it is. I owe you an apology, SD. I looked it up as agogly and got nothing, but when I looked up agog I found it.

I guess "eagerly" would have been more standard... I am no native english speaker, so my choice of words might be really off at some times.

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh, I wanted to point out a thought I had tonight:
It doesn't really matter when the vig uses his shot other than the risk of a blocked or killed vig.
On the other hand the tracker would want to claim as late as possible to gather as much information as possible, but that improves the gain of a counter-claim for scum.
So I think preserving the vig shot for an eventual claimed and counter-claimed tracker to confirm his information might be worth considering, especially if we can get the scum rolecop early.

[Shadow Dancer]

the most persuasive reason to vote antitown so far is this, by the way:

I think its the cute scum game where they keep their RVS vote for "mysterious" reasons instead of awkwardly trying to come up with a reason to push a mislynch or bus.

But since he only has 39 gameposts I'm not sure whether he could be aware enough of the meta that elusiveness is town (albeit a very outdated meta)

Who? what? where?

It's the "most persuasive reason", yet "elusiveness is town"?
What you are trying to say here is that this is only a scum tell because Anti is newb?!

[Shadow Dancer]

The context - as my post clearly indicated - wasn't even clear to me.
And that wasn't what Fate said.

[Shadow Dancer]

I am so fed up with easy target arguments. DOES IT EVER OCCUR TO ANYONE THAT EASY TARGETS MAY BE EASY TARGETS BECAUSE THEY SUCK AT PLAYING SCUM.

Yes ... but... The problem is there are so many bullet magnets around that altogether fail at playing mafia...

[Shadow Dancer]

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way.

And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

Sorry, but since you reference me here I have to insist on this:
The "scumclaim" part is obviously utter bullshit...
And I hope your town play is also methodical in some way.
What is scummy about Anti is that he seems rather focussed on what would keep him out of the line of fire instead of actually making a case.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Lucky: Keep in mind that the scum team is pretty strong, having a cop and an RB, thus delaying PR claims/uses on town side will definitely have its drawbacks.

[Shadow Dancer]

The drawback is the drawback of PRs not being able to perform their powers, tracker not being able to share his/her knowledge and every one not having confirmed townies to eliminate from the lynch pool.

[Shadow Dancer]

erm, Fate, you know that the games you are talking about were either marathon or that awkward Lucid Dreamers where I was practically perma-V/LA?

I like Ythill's attitude.

I seriously don't know how some people consider Jarti's last post a town-tell... It explains his previous rather dispensable question to the mod a bit, but that is completely null...

[Shadow Dancer]

No, we haven't. Nevermind... Just found your meta argument kinda funny...

[Shadow Dancer]

Just finished a reread... Spinning brain just aked me why I'm not in bed, yet... So I'll try 'n keep it short.
I got some bad vibes from Con, Sim and Jarty.
I am also a bit suspicious of Percy and Alma right now...

And after reading Ythill's and LL's strategy arguments again I am still convinced that Ythill's proposed tactic is the best, since most stable, tactic...

I'll elaborate on it tomorrow, good night.

[Shadow Dancer]

Just skimming

That Baltar waggon needs to stop.

I coulds see Percy as scum, his reasoning to jump on that waggon felt really stretched to me.

More to come later...

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry, took me longer than I expected.

Alma

: Seems to be pretty much active lurking, popping in here and there, dropping some rather innocuous ramarks and disappearing again. I really want to hear more from him, at least some opinion about every player or something like that to start with.

Anti

: Some shallow conventional conversation, than attacking Fate for playstyle, dangling around it, unvoting, finally jumping on the most poular waggon. Seems also pretty concerned about not receiving any unwanted attention an dmore or less disappears when under pressure.

Conc

: I don't like her early attack on Baltar. He never really explains how Baltar's bad scum hunting tactic could actually be scummy.
I don't really get this remark:

Voting is a tool, not a liability.

So you do not need to justify your votes?

Jarti

: I really didn't like his opening, just droping in, throwing what seems like random names around and some setup speculation that entirely uninetersting in the current state of the game (don't get me wrong, I don't say he shouldn't have brought it up, but I consider this kind of stuff entirely null). I don't know. His latest posts seem better to me. Also some one I need to see more of.

Percy

: Has provided two actually useful posts so far. His first post seems kind of dodgy. It seems to go nowhere, no clear suspicions, no vote... His next post gets a bit more of a direction, but one I absolutely do not like. His case against Baltar seems really stretched and twisted to me, especially the alleged "noob-scum" dilemma.

Sim

: His attack on Ythil seemed really forced (I don't consider setup speculations a reliable town tell, but I definitely consider attempts at inhibiting them for whatever reason scummy). His final statement

Better way of putting it: setup questions are fine. "I haven't read the thread, but here are some ideas about the setup, discuss them now" isn't.

is really flimsy IMO. His attack on LL for what is most likely just personal posting style is also suspicious. Later he says about Ythill, after excusing his "bad play so far":

I had a problem with Ythill, but I was barking up the wrong tree.

Seems like backing out of an unpopular waggon without further ado. I don't buy his case against LL at all. His latest posts seem a bit better, though, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was really just a bad start.

I don't know. I still like the Anti waggon, but that's not going to do much in the near future as it seems and Percy and Conc, though derserving more pressure, don't even have a waggon O_o. So I'll join the Alma waggon (

vote count please

)

unvote. vote Alma

[Shadow Dancer]

Just realized that seems to be already L-1! I had overlooked Ythill's vote ;\

[Shadow Dancer]

But Baltar is still town, Ythill...

And who's already talking about claiming and hammering? I thought this was agreed on as a pressure waggon? Alma should defend himself and contribute some reads, as far as I am concerned.

[Shadow Dancer]

Like I said, I'll probably be up for an AGM wagon in a bit. Maybe even tonight. It would help me move more quickly if SD would stop ignoring me.

OH, c'mon, how is not having had the time to answer something, which I promissed to do anyway, ignoring you?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Shadow: Please explain the "bad vibes" you got from Jarti by quoting and commenting.

Jarti: I really didn't like his opening, just droping in, throwing what seems like random names around and some setup speculation that entirely uninetersting in the current state of the game (don't get me wrong, I don't say he shouldn't have brought it up, but I consider this kind of stuff entirely null). I don't know. His latest posts seem better to me. Also some one I need to see more of.

*scratch head*
Was having a quote mandatory?

[Shadow Dancer]

Maybe I took it more suspicious when I first mentioned it... I only had like 3 posts or so to judge from at the time. And my scum reads were listed in no particular order other than how the names dropped into my consciousness. Right now I wouldn't put Jarti into my top three.

[Shadow Dancer]

I got some bad vibes from Con, Sim and Jarty.
I am also a bit suspicious of Percy and Alma right now...

This seems like a pretty clear division between top three and secondary suspicions. Are you telling me that it is not?

It was what I had in mind like two days ago before even ISOing every one and commenting. I would put all of Alma, Anti (not on the list because my vote was there anyway), Percy, Conc and Sim over Jarty right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Standard procedure is to threaten with a hammer and then demand a claim. Just saying.

And talking about it - of course Zor's right, a real lynch threat is required to apply real pressure. But pressuring and demanding defense and demanding a claim are two different things still. After a claim it is much more likely that the person will really be lynched. And I am more interested i narrowing down my scum list a bit than having a quick flip at the moment.

@Alma: I hope you post soon. The further progress of this game dependends a lot on you right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

Pushing an alternate waggon now would mean giving Alma an easy pass without him contributing anything. And there is a difference between agreeing to lynch him in general and wanting to lynch him immediatelly. And I could only play the "I was right card" if I wasn't on the waggon and actually proclaimed that Alma was town. And anyway you could point it out then, but bringing it up now is supposed to do what? Warn me what not to do O_o.

[Shadow Dancer]

SD, there any particular reason you're answering questions directed at another player?

I thought it was directed at me since it came directly after my post and wasn't directed at any one by name.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Ythill: If it wasn't clear enough: My post was not really intended to differentiate between top suspects and lesser scum reads and my top suspect at the time was definitely Anti, who is not even in the list.

[Shadow Dancer]

[...]I was wrong. I misread Ythill's tone. I think I've said this before, in response to VPB[...]

I cannot find any response of yours to Baltar adressing that. And if I'm not mistaken your attack on Ythill was not about his tone.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Conc: With "defensive reaction towards his (Baltar's) voters" you mean your OMGUS-accusation against him? Why do you think that is more likely coming from scum than from a displeased townie?

[Shadow Dancer]

I forgot to make my therory post...

First of I want to point out the following again: The chance to lynch scum (assuming pure luck) depends on the number of scum and the size of the player pool to pick the lynchee from.
Tomorrow we will be 13 voting players (7 to lynch), but only 12 to pick from.
If the vig uses his/her shot it will be 12 (6 to lynch), but still 12 to pick from, so the chance to lynch scum does not improve.
This is analoguely true for any other day, of course.
What we get from an early vig shot is an early flip, which could proof quite useful.
On the other hand, if the person on the guillotine is really scum keeping him/her alive could prove quite useful (i.e. watching a scum that has little to gain any more).
However, if we decide to use the vig ASAP the early flip would IMO outweight it.
When it comes to early claim of vig and RS I endorse it.
Our best trump is the tracker who is almost as good as a cop with 2 scum PRs and no interfering town PRs.
However, with a kill, a cop and a RB scum can very effectively sweep the town for PRs.
Any unclaimed PR NKed is a missed chance for town, especially because two PRs are little more than confirmable townies.
Claiming early thus ensures that vig and RS can be optimally used.
An early claim has the advantage that counterclaiming scum is just a free scum lynch (1:1 chance and three mislynches). If scum does not CC we have two confirmed townies.
I can see LL's argument that that would help scum to scan the town for the tracker more effectively, but that is true only if scum do not use their NK to eliminate the vig and RS - in which case we'd have confirmed townies for multiple days which adds up to quite a great advantage.
So no matter what scum does town gets a guaranteed significant advantage, which makes this tactic if not the best then at least the most stable one.

[Shadow Dancer]

Woow... Looks like I missed quite a bit... And I see an Alma post. An its quite a long one :\ On first read I see quite some things that need commenting. But I'm too lazy to write a WOT now. Maybe tomorrow.

Unvote.

for now.

And: Hi, GLaDOS. I hope you do better than Anti.

And on with my catchup...

[Shadow Dancer]

OMG, LL, could you keep your posts a bit shorter O_o. At least shrink the quotes a bit or something... Especially don't quote your own posts all the time! I can ISO you myself whenever I want to, you know... Fate has it right: Conciseness is pro-town.
And damn, it, stop always explaining and defending your playstyle over and over again already. Please ;\ I like your approach for the most part, now just show it in action and make it work effectively, okay?!
And one last time: Our PRs are rather useless, scum's Prs are really strong and hence our PRs will most likely not survive for long. Thus making the most of them means claiming early, i.e. Vig tomorrow before shot and VS maybe even ASAP.

SD's post 353 is good. He calls out a number of people and is trying to start some good conversations. If SD follows up on this, he'll have earned some serious points from me.

Buddying? Coaching? Like play a certain way to please me? I don't know, but posts like this make me wary.

LL's post 430 makes me think about Jarti again. Could he play some "good cop - bad cop" game all by himself?

Simenon finally brings a somewhat acceptable stance on the Ythil case finally. Still: Ythil explained that he had

no time

to read in his opening post... I am willing to let it slight and give him the benefit of doubt by now, because I have an urging feeling that there are things going on in his head I do not yet understand properly...

GlaDOS immediately pleases me more than Anti... OK, no big deal...
Somehow I am missing some good scum reads on her part so far.

If concission does not post something today, I'm inclined to join the waggon.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Conc: So you say you don't pick out small points from others to elaborate on... But still I see you doing that a lot. . And I really cannot follow you. Almost all of the things you point out seem to go nowhere. And where does your Sim vote suddenly come from? And then there's this:

Nvm, I misread your scum-list for town-list. I'm no longer as interested in pressuring VP because it does not seem to bear fruit with all of his OGMUSing. I'm gonna go ahead and just call him scum. Right now, I would say VP, Sim, AGM.
I'm better with AGM as he revealed his solid thoughts on #411.

This looks like you are on the one hand backing off Baltar because he turns out not be an easy waggon, but still you call him scum as if to avoid contradiction.
Your main point against Baltar is that you consider him fake... That is very subjective, could you at least try to objectify it?

[Shadow Dancer]

I've never been diagnosed with schizophrenia, if that's what you're implying. Although I guess they all say that.

Let's say your and my thinking seem to be divergent... Which is good if you are town, but your attacks on both Ythill and LL seemed really far fetched and forced to me. But I like your newest posts much better and can better imagin you coming from a townie POV now.

[Shadow Dancer]

{Shadow Dancer}

: Now that I can read his posts as a non-native English speaker, I can more easily see the effort he is putting into his posting. I think he is actively trying to understand and interact with the game. I do agree he is somewhat forgettable (I believe zoraster pointed this out midgame), but I get a Town impression moreso than a scum impression so far.

Wow... Nice from you to give me so much credit, but this almost sounds as if I was struggling to understand what people say or something. I assure you that I am perfectly capable of getting everything any one says and only ma own choice of words may be a bit nonstandard or off at times...

[Shadow Dancer]

This post is scum city. Voting to pressure and get a read, then unvoting before you even have read the content is terribad. Was it just the length of the post that made you unvote? I have long posts, and you think I'm scum for some reason.

Maybe that is because I never said long posts were pro-town - in fact I stated the opposite. And I read it before I unvoted, I just did not want to comment in any detail. Alma had done what I demanded him to do, so no reason not to unvote him at that monent.

[Shadow Dancer]

2) It's LL's plan that is bad (and could have scum motivations), not Ythill's, so why LL is saying Ythill has a bad plan is totally beyond me.

Has it ever occured to you that LL could actually consider his own plan good and right?

YES I REALIZE I AM GUILTY OF THIS.

Do I get this right - if I do something - I'm guilty, but if I do nothing - I'm still guilty. Nice way to force a point...

[Shadow Dancer]

Pfff... Finally weekend... I'll post tomorrow.

[Shadow Dancer]

Jarti's latest post give him some updraft in my list. But the continuous change of avatars is annoying...

[Shadow Dancer]

Conc... kinda keeps floating (somewhere in scummy waters) for me... More questions, basically: If you have as much cloes meta of Baltar as you claim, could you somehow convert that knowledge into some coherent line of thought, that could explain your case to otheres (or at least me ) without the need of a deeper knowledge of his meta or to read one of those games?!
(I think there was something else which I forgot O_o)
Her high praise for LL's case seems rather desperate.

[Shadow Dancer]

Luck's making way too much of a show out of everything :\ Not sure what to make of it, yet... But, though his "new" opinion of Jarti matches my early impression much more, I also can't help myself but notice the blatant contradiction to his earlier stance... Also: Why do you think Glados, without having much pressure on her, should defend against accusations that constitute no immediate threat instead of sharing actually useful thoughts?

[Shadow Dancer]

I like Glados' play so much more than Anti's so far. Maybe (maybe) Anti's play was just display of incapability... Not an urgent lynch for me any more, at least.

[Shadow Dancer]

I tried to ISO RC... twice... since his strange buddying attempt made me realize how much of a blind spot he was for me... And all I got was becoming tackled hard by boredom... So I decided to ignore his WOTs and concentrate on the newer developement.
One thing is sure: He looks bad in the conforntation with Glados and is the only one who looked really worse under pressure so far...

Beware, vote taxx coming
VOTE: RedCoyote (whee, those really work )

!!! L-1 !!!

I don't expect you to read my walls unless you have an issue with me. This is mostly defense oriented anyways.

Is this true for all of your ugly posts or just your latest ones?

Maybe instead of dodging the actual point I'm making and sticking your fingers in your ears, you'll take a breath, read over Antitown's abysmal posts, and come to your senses.

You want to convince Glados that Anti was scum O_o Ythil's right for once: Hilarious!

[Shadow Dancer]

I meant actual reasons and not just Fate-bravado. nevermind then.

Add flowers to it if that way you'd like it more.

[Shadow Dancer]

I'd settle on a Conc lynch if it turns out inevitable but, believe it or not, I am serious about RC. He is a great lynch right now.
It's strange how for every major waggon some one comes along and tries to derail it as scum distraction - in other words it's really time for a flip.

[Shadow Dancer]

Is that now a "Conci's scummier"-kinda lynch or but a "Conci's more dispensable" one?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Ythil: Confirm vote.

Call me overfocussed, but I also don't like how RC lapses onto VV's half baked cases.

Sim: I don't feel particularly desperate to lynch him right now...

LL: After reading Galdos and Jarti again and really seeing his case as a majorly forced and unneccesarily overfocussed stretch I see nothing to really defend him any more.

@Conc: How's that double talk?

Fate claimed scum btw:P

[Shadow Dancer]

OK... Er...

I won't even try to pretend that I get even a tiny glimpse of what is going on right now...
Sim claims VT and the person demanding his claim in the first place jumps off the waggon?! Despereate attempt to blow my town read into tiny little pieces?!? Why?

Maybe Luck is in deed a good lynch, just to get rid of my head ache and that rumbling in my stomach :\

But seriously: How many VT claims do we want to collect before we become serious again?

[Shadow Dancer]

How is it rhetoric? And how does having an actual VT claim all of a sudden make Sim a less viable lynch for you? If you haven't had the idea yourself: Scum are the only ones who know if that claim is genuine or not...

[Shadow Dancer]

I said that before: I am not too fond of a Sim lynch myself. On the other hand I consoder Sim rather on the scummy side right now, I can see why people would want to lynch him. But that is not the point - I am not the one who demanded a claim. That's you. If you really think Sim is town, why did you waggon him in the first place?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Glados: I definitely want to hear opninions on all living players from Sim as a last word before you shoot him. Especially if he really is scum.

Now that the vig has claimed, I wouldn't wait with the RS claim for too long. It's right that it's pure stattistics now, but scum is still too strong in finding countering PRs than that we could hope the RS could possibly make it to the endgame alive. and that rule now is practically useless anyway as long as the RB is alive.

I'll post more once marathon WE is over.

[Shadow Dancer]

Vig can only shoot guillotined one... That's why it's such a useless role for the most part...

[Shadow Dancer]

Hmmm... RC's attack on Fate feels forcefully stretched.

I urgently want to hear some updated reads from LL now that his pathetic GLaDOS-Jarti thingy disintegrated.

Now that Sim flipped town I really wanna reread (damn, I wanna reread a lot now :\) him and try to understand his angle of view on things.

On the other hand his town flip intensifies my desire to hear from Baltar about his waggon dangling after the claim. I cannot ignore something that blatantly scummy, even on my leading town read.

I am still convincd that now, after the vig has already claimed, an RS claim would be advantageous. This gives us two confirmed townies (plus eventual Obvtown - I won't tell you who that would be) to follow - and scum can only kill one each night.
If both PRs claim today, we have both cofirmed today and still one tomorrow.
If RS claims tomorrow we only got one confirmed townie a day.
If RS waits even longer with a claim, 3 people will be guillotined and scum has scanned 6 with kil and cop which means they most likely get the RS before town does...

[Shadow Dancer]

Don't try to push suspicion aside to Conc and RC now (knowing that I would even follw you).
If you were really that sure Sim was town you would not have hard core waggoned him and forced a claim but defended him pushed another waggon.

[Shadow Dancer]

Did Jarti really just come in, drop a lame vote and was going to "hope that something happens"? O_o Adding him to my "likely scum" list again.
And we already had that Conc waggon and it didn't really come much out of it...
Besides, can any one tell me if that chronic avatar change syndrome is typical for Jarti or just his way of being especally annoying in this game (seriously, I just saw a post of him and at first thought: "WhoTF is

this

guy?!")

However - the only read I can really get out of Conc is "horrible, horrible, horrible"... In that she's in good company of LL :/ But neither lynch would make me particularly happy right now...

Fate is about 80% Fate and 20% good points (even more so since he gave up on his 2-liner-policy) which probably means he is 90% town (metaphorically speaking that is, not exact numbers) with the 10% missing being my doubts if I can read Fate at all...

LC on the other hand still looks horrible, GlaDOS being confirmed doesn't help it. And I don't mind even trying to read any of his wall posts again to see if I can pick up a glimpse of his claims conderning his Fate suspicion. I already did that twice and all I realized was my growing boredom and the lack of any stringent red line of thought...
This waggon definitely needs more

vote RC

.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Baltar: I am still not convinced of your answer. To help your memories.

This

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

Claim.

was your L-1 vote on Sim

You say you considered him townie and didn't like the waggon and just wanted to speed up the process so town could move on. Now tell me:
i.) What would be the townie motivation to demnand a claim and set some one, whom one considers to be town, on the bring of death?
ii.) Why did you not try harder to defend Sim?
iii.) How did a VT claim convince you to unvote? Even if you don't agree with the site policy of lynching claimed VTs you certainly knew about it (you pointed out something about blind wiki-followers or something like that) and hence you must have known the consequences of a claim. (Well, I guess this now basically loops back to i.)...)
iv.) Why wouldn't, in your opinion, scum just have claimed VT?

Fixed a broken quote tag. -mod

[Shadow Dancer]

@VV: Most of your reads and comments were really outdated, you should really give some up-to-date- thoughts.

@Baltar: You really drive me crazy. Tell me how we can break this circle... Tell me how you can be so unreasonable...

[Shadow Dancer]

I am still convincd that now, after the vig has already claimed, an RS claim would be advantageous. This gives us two confirmed townies (plus eventual Obvtown - I won't tell you who that would be) to follow - and scum can only kill one each night.
If both PRs claim today, we have both cofirmed today and still one tomorrow.
If RS claims tomorrow we only got one confirmed townie a day.
If RS waits even longer with a claim, 3 people will be guillotined and scum has scanned 6 with kil and cop which means they most likely get the RS before town does...

Every one just going to ignore this?! Next on calling me scummy for not remembering my posts gets a slap in the face...

[Shadow Dancer]

@Mod: could you please fix my quote in post 949

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, I still feel like rereading a lot... I will try to give more opinions tomorrow.

[Shadow Dancer]

Meh... Sorry for not posting in a while. I haven't felt well as of late (cold or something, headache [literally this time...])... I hope I'll be better tomorrow...

[Shadow Dancer]

Some muddled thoughts from my muddled brain:

I reread Sim... But meh... I stay with my impression that he is a strange thinker... And his conclusions still seem almost entiryl wrong for me... Stupid waste if time

I cannot really see the point about Jarti being town. I think he's terribly scummy. And I'd really like to know if this damn avatar changing has any deeper meaning and if it is normal for him. It's a strange and annoying spleen, especially for some one not being an alt...

What really puzzles me right now is what happened to Zor's reads between D1 and D2. He was tunneling on me whenever there was no convenient waggon to hop on on D1 - and on D2 all of a sudden I am not even in his top 3 anymore? Given that his new top 3 (Baltar, AGM, RC) are all favorite targets of different players this looks a lot like preparation for opportunistic waggon hopping to me.

Baltar still hasn't explained the discrepancy between his knowledge about the site meta of lynching claimed VTs and his behaviour on the Sim waggon.

AND SOMEHOW WE STILL HAVE NEITHER AN RS CLAIM NOR ANY DECENT DICUSSION ABOUT IT WHICH IS A SHAME.

AGM's still not looking good, pretty much back to fence sitting with some defensiveness in between. I would be quite happy with that lynch. And RC waggon seems to bobble somwhere in nowhere again

Unvote. Vote AGM

L-1

[Shadow Dancer]

Redeemed soul...

[Shadow Dancer]

That's the point: I already explained why it would be advantagousright now. But people (not just you) seem not to care and read... And obviously dicussing what would be "if GLaDOS had not claimed already" is just adressing a non-option and therefore irrlevant right now.

[Shadow Dancer]

WTF?
I read the thread. But I don't do my own VC since the last mod provided one was pretty fresh.
I checked the last vote, which was by Conc and appeared in the votecount... And votes not counted by the mod don't count, right?
And seriously, Alma. You had three pretty pointless posts in the meantime, non of which you used to clarify your own VC. So don't complain.
I

unvote

.
May the mod sort this out...
AND I ALREADY EXPLAINED IT AND QUOTED IT AND DON'T SEE WHY I SHOULD EXPLAIN TO FATE (OR ANY ONE) THE ABSOLUTE BASICS LIKE HOW TO ISO ME AND FIND IT YOURSELF. AND THIS WHOLE "ANTITOWN RPOPOSAL, ARE YOU SCUM?" IS ALSO JUST REALLY BAD RHETORIC. I THINK YOU JUST HAVEN'T THOUGHT THIS THROUGH.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Baltar: Your assumption that scum would neccesarily claim a PR is naive at best, especially considering the lynch mechanic which would give scum another day on the guillotine... And the tracker, which Sim could have been, considering that you considered him town, would also have claimed VT, just to get that one track in instead of being NKed right away. And a simple CC of any lesser town role would hardly have hurt town but scum would nonthelless have been confirmed becuase scum would obviously not CC a claimed town PR. But that's not even the point at all.
The point is that you pressed a claim and hence a sure lynch on some one that you considered a townie although you knew that it would mean his doom. And that is smething I cannot make any sense of from a townie PoV.

[Shadow Dancer]

vote Alma

then.

[Shadow Dancer]

BTW; HERE IT IS... FOR THE 3RD TIME.

I am still convincd that now, after the vig has already claimed, an RS claim would be advantageous. This gives us two confirmed townies (plus eventual Obvtown - I won't tell you who that would be) to follow - and scum can only kill one each night.
If both PRs claim today, we have both cofirmed today and still one tomorrow.
If RS claims tomorrow we only got one confirmed townie a day.
If RS waits even longer with a claim, 3 people will be guillotined and scum has scanned 6 with kil and cop which means they most likely get the RS before town does...

IN CASE NO ONE NOTICED: CONC MADE A STUNNING 180° TURN FROM OPPOSING A CLAIM TO APPROVING IT, OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT EVEN REMEBERING HER EARLIER OPINION.
BUT ANYWAY, FORGET THE CLAIM NOW SINCE ALMA JUST MADE IT IRRELEVANT.

[Shadow Dancer]

....
So it's a stupid me waggon versus another lame arse Conc waggon now? No, thank you...
AGM was a good lynch yesterday and still is today, but never my top suspect. How is my waggoning him scummy? Even if it's not the first time?
And by the way: I wasn't on the Sim waggon, I never was on any Baltar or Lucky waggon (Jarti even made a list for you). So much to that theory. Driven by selsctive perception through and through.
And now look at LC's response. Suddenly he is following Fate around, all to happy to see his own waggon hopping relativated? C'mon.
But anyway: If you really wanna dismantle the AGM waggon now, fine, but I stay with my conclusion that then at least the RS should claim right now.
And we should lynch scum.

Unvote. Vote RC

[Shadow Dancer]

See, Fate - AGM, Luck, RC? I've got some scummy as shit votes up my arse. And what for? Voting AGM...

[Shadow Dancer]

And every one else is trying to outlurk even AGM...
And by the way. Baltar is still town - hell annoyingly erratic town - but still as town as any big accumulation of buildings.
But, yeah, people ignore me for some reason ;..(

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow Dancer has been prodded.

Scum.

...says Mr. "I don't really have time to play..." Excuse me? I've got stuff to do, my W-Lan's bugging and I still feel like shit. Sure - makes me scum. You're really sesperate, aren't you...

[Shadow Dancer]

I never opposed to a RS claim.

At this moment, I don't think we should have our redemned soul claim.

What does this leave us with? Please tell me, because I don't know...

[Shadow Dancer]

>User Control Panel>Board Preferences>Edit Display Options>Display Avatars

Select "No"

That is exactly the opposite to solving the problem... You still did not explain why you even do it, though...

[Shadow Dancer]

It would take less than 15 minutes to type up a reasonable case. If you don't have that much time then you shouldn't be playing forum mafia. Anyway, that is a very scummy statement. If you never type arguments, then it's a lot easier to hide and distance yourself from the argument later. If you invest yourself, then people can determine whether your attack is legitimate and genuine.

Lolwhat? Have you ever done what you demand yourself in this game? In the same post you state the "case" against me as "SD is LOL".

[Shadow Dancer]

@SD - My V/LA was announced ahead of time and didn't conveniently pop up at the EXACT moment I needed to lie low and not get lynched.

@Fate - What?

Because not posting is of course a solid behaviour if you are at L-1 and ensures no one will lynch you O_o... Either you are really BM or scum... Actually I think you're both.

[Shadow Dancer]

Shadow Dancer,

Your last four posts have been pretty low content for a guy who's about to be lynched.

For high content you'll have to wait until I have the feeling like ny brains working properly again... And what would you expect me to do, btw?

[Shadow Dancer]

@Zor: Before sliding back behind every one else on my waggon - you still did not explain what threw me off your scumlist all of a sudden at D2 daystart.

[Shadow Dancer]

I can't see a coherent thought in this post. Why unvote? Do you think AGM is town? You sure sound like you think so and yet you put him "on the brink of death".

I don't know what makes you think I cosider Alma town. The unvote was purely technical in nature because there was a problem with the vote count (and I realize it was kinda useless... Meh.).

[Shadow Dancer]

Why have you been on my ass so much today if I'm a strong town read SD? Also, what do you mean by erratic?

"Erratic" as "highly prone to error" (another bad choice of words, I gues :/ )... And if been on your arse because you did something highly scummy or rather highly idiotic as I cannot help myself but to feel... And that's what I was going to determine...

[Shadow Dancer]

@Zor: Before sliding back behind every one else on my waggon - you still did not explain what threw me off your scumlist all of a sudden at D2 daystart.

Some other people seemed scummier.

But nothing really happened between Ythil's "vote your no.1 scum" and your D2 opening...

[Shadow Dancer]

Unvote. Vote: AlmasterGM.

Unvote. Vote: zoraster.

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer.

Unvote. Vote: AlmasterGM.

[/b]
The last four are especially hilarious.

Wow. Another breathtakingly helpful stance. Mind to explain? Maybe? Just this time... Oh wait your name is also in there. Twice.

[Shadow Dancer]

So yeah... AGM was scummy scumscum, is scummy scumscum and remains scummy scumscum.

unvote. vote AGM

L-1 again

. If you still think that's so darn scummy then feel free to lynch me instead. But don't blame me then...

[Shadow Dancer]

VPB, your own analysis is basically leading to the conclusion of me not being scum. Like you've said, if I was scum, townies should want to lynch me for being scum and scum should want to lynch me to gain town cred. Neither of these are happening. Have you ever considered the conclusion that I'm NOT SCUM? and that scum don't want to lynch and look bad post-flip and townies don't want to lynch because they don't think I'm scum?

Er??? Maybe in your paralel scum universe...

[Shadow Dancer]

Both RCs stances towards AGM as well as his voting pattern, compared to his reads (i.e. him staying notably far away from said waggon), strongly suggest an AGM RC scum team by the way.

About Fate lynch... I don't know. I don't really trust my early town read on him, but I still have it, the last few pages of terrible WIFOM were a lot over the top, though... Still not at all a reason to not lynch the really scummy guys...

[Shadow Dancer]

Great... Let Obvscum live another day... WIFOMlevels are skyrocketing...
Add Conc to the list of fishy voters...

[Shadow Dancer]

Sorry... Almost forgot about this game. Give me some time to catch up.

[Shadow Dancer]

Meh. Sorry. V/LA till monday...

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, catching up now.

[Shadow Dancer]

What? Another prod? Would be unfair to ask for a replacement in my situation... But on the other hend being doomed shattered my motivation into tiny little peaces and some unidentifiable pulp... I feel really out of this game. I don'tknow what I should tell you because I feel like I know shit anyway. I still call RC, AGM scum team. And the other leading waggon is Obvtown Baltar. So

vote RC

for now.
It's weakend now so I'll maybe finally have some time to try and deal with this stuff again...

[Shadow Dancer]

Yeah, thanks Baltar for so greatly improving my motivation to give

any

opinions. I kinda saw it coming. I hope to finally drive the waggon I am favouring al the way since D1 to a final success - and you come with some WIFOMy "SD is scum, I am better not on the same waggon as him." Maybe I should just go back to lurking wait for a lynch, which hopefully is in my favor, qickhammer and post some final thoughts...

[Shadow Dancer]

Bah... Unbelievable I miss marathon weekend for this stupid shit...

Do you really think if I knew a way or had the striking insight to convince you I am town IWOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT YETSRERDAY WHEN IT STILL MATTERED??!?!??!
WHy am I lurking? I could give you a thousand stupidd reasons.... Trying to figure out the news with earthquake+reactor incindent in Japan, revolts in middle east and stuff, my grndmother's birthday, having other things to do... Having my motivtion shot down by people straping me to some stupid guillotine (hey, in the end it's not about

having

the time to read and post but about

taking

it).

But here's for your convenience (or inconvenience, why should I figure that out for you):

Scum team: AGM + RC: Fate already mentioned a million more damn good bloody reasons than I would ever care to do for even the slowest of you to get bith the individual scumminesses of those two as well as the obvious connection.

Third scum: Whaddafuk do I know. Some one along Maem/LL/Conc (in that order of likelihood).

Somewhat townsomethingelish: VV, Crypto

sure town: Baltar, Fate - that being said - listen to Fate - he actually has something to say. Ignore Baltar. He is posting about 50% BS.

confirmed town (obviously): Zor.

[Shadow Dancer]

That being said, why are both Fate and VPB in your "sure town"?

Because they are, don't be jealous.

[Shadow Dancer]

OR: We lynch you AGM, because you are obviously pressing a bullshit Fate lynch again - the very same moment your Obvpartner LC is placed on guillotine again.

Yeah, I like

that

idea, too.

[Shadow Dancer]

Who the fuck is "LC"?

Come back when you can at least fabricate something coherent.

Of course I meant RC.
Unqualified attacks like this are but another sure sign for your overwhelming scumdom.

[Shadow Dancer]

Baltar, Fate, Zoraster, Shadow, Crypto.

If crypto gets on, and if SD tells us how long he'll be on, I'll consider moving to AGM as plausible

I'll be online until DL. RC or AGM, I lynch both, I don't care.

[Shadow Dancer]

[...some text...]

Vote: Fate

Fate > AGM > RC
[...some more text...]

We need more massive dayvig...

[Shadow Dancer]

O_o VV looks really worse now.
And his voting behaviour draws a strong connection to RC scum. He's expressed some suspicion of fate since ... I think even D2, why has he withheld his vote so long?!
However, both Alma's and LL's votes on Fate are also both super scummy...
That whole waggon reeks and smells of scum piling up... I can sense their dispair.

[Shadow Dancer]

Finally I see light at the end of the tunnel. I can die in peace now...

[Shadow Dancer]

What? Done comrpomising? DONE COMPROMISING... There's so many bad things about this single post, I don't even want to think about them.

[Shadow Dancer]

Anyway, this gives me the freedom to try and

UNVOTE. VOTE AGM

Counterwaggon gogogogo!

[Shadow Dancer]

(now I am desperate :\)

[Shadow Dancer]

And Crypto put LCback at L-3... That's what I mean with "gives me the freedom"...

[Shadow Dancer]

And with "so many bad things"...

[Shadow Dancer]

OK...

I

can compromise... Conc lynch is still meh... But so much better than a definite Fate mislynch.

Unvote. Vote Conc

[Shadow Dancer]

OK... Let's make a final approach.

Unvote. Vote AGM

[Shadow Dancer]

Because I know what I am doing. Contrary to some others, I guess.

[Shadow Dancer]

You almost certainly got your Conc lynch, be happy. But it was never my preference.

[Shadow Dancer]

The "town full of leaders" is a point. However, I don't see the problem in the desired leadership per se. It seems more to me that there were just too many players who could not see beyond certain playstyles, namely of Fate and to a lesser degree Baltar, which ended up in a pretty high level of chronic suspicion on them.
It also proves how powerful a scum tactic it is to try and split the town.

I really like VV's suggestion to turn the tracker into a watcher. That would make for much more dynamic role interactions.
In the setup as it is both, Ythil's early analysis as well as our scum reactoion to not use any PRs and just wait for the town PRs to claim early were basically correct. But maybe some one with some spare time wants to do some math on the issue...

I must really thank Crypto. His Conc vote was what turned my on-guillotine play around from balancing on a razor blade to a striking success
I think this is the right spot to notify an important fact:
- Do not try to outguess scum, they have more information than you. Especially in a game with delayed flips.
This was how the VV case entrirely disintegrated in a giant pile of assumed "connections" between players.
And this is how Red could become "confirmed town" in every one's eyes.

I think I would have been hell annoyed as towny in this game. But I wouldn't blame that on the setup but on people not really dealing with the setup... Delayed flips certainly require some adaption. Especially all the back and force with and about the person on guillotine was not advantagios for town. Best way would likely be to just ignore that person for the most part and wait with analyzing until after the flip.

Hito's modding was good, no objections. Being strict on DLs was definitely the right thing, considering that lynches did only depend on a relative majority.

Tracker dying N1 was just pure luck... I guess one shouldn't entrust Ythill with a PR

[Shadow Dancer]

You seriously give me too much credit for my on-guillotine play. Sure, it worked out absolutely perfectly. But it could as well have ended in a desaster. There was quite some luck (i.e. Crypto) in it. (Crypto's my new Mascot. I wonder why he flaked out...). And my hard core lurking and moaning how discuraging being on that dman guillotine is was definitely the earnest part of my play.
And you did your part, too. RC played absolutely solid all game and VV switching into useless-mode was a joy to watch.