Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[VP Baltar]

Vote: LuckayLuck

When was the last time you played on MS? Your join date is old, but I don't recall seeing you around much.

[VP Baltar]

@crypto - what is your opinion about this setup and what do you think is the optimal strategy?

[VP Baltar]

You have a problem with me asking crypto in particular?

[VP Baltar]

This is me, being indifferent to your wariness.

[VP Baltar]

Why? Because I think your question is dumb? Also, why is my question a "half-hearted attempt to generate discussion" when you have absolutely no clue as to my reasoning?

[VP Baltar]

On what grounds do you think it's random? Why is it a generic question?

[VP Baltar]

Thanks.

Unvote, Vote: Concission

[VP Baltar]

Random questions are a pretty overused gimmick that isn't exceedingly useful to me. Asking someone in particular about something specific is a much better way to assess alignments. Effectively finding scum is a process of elimination.

[VP Baltar]

WTF are you talking about the lineup?

Also, how I think my question helps regarding discussion should be fairly obvious, but don't expect me to reveal anything until crypto answers my question.

[VP Baltar]

WTF are you talking about the lineup?

[VP Baltar]

@VP Balter and @Concission, how does disagreement over Mafia theory justify a vote?

Wasn't a vote over theory. Concission seems to think that me only asking you a question is scummy because I'm 'faking' scumhunting, or whatever. It's a pretty bunk reason that he seems serious about...therefore I questioned the sincerity of what he was saying with my vote.

[VP Baltar]

she, her...sorry concission

[VP Baltar]

It tells me he is mildly thinking about the setup, which is what I wanted to know. Hence why I asked. What does that tell you about my alignment? Also, why do you keep ignoring my question? Why were you asking me about the line-up, which I presume to mean players in this game, when I was asking about the setup?

[VP Baltar]

See, I really don't like explaining my motives to people because they completely destroy any sort of use from that scum hunting tool, but regardless I will now so we can move on because this discussion is useless.

My thought process in grand detail was

1) Crypto is a good player who is around
2) I would like to find out crypto's alignment early so I know if I can trust him or not. Town alliance ftw.
3) Town players are more likely to be thinking about how this setup can best be approached in the early stages of the game.
4) Scum are less likely to be concerned with the setup at this point, as they will be scum scumming and trying to get NKs day one so they can get to their precious night QT.
5) Ask crypto about setup to see if he is actually thinking about it or not.

That's ruined now, so the least you can do is vote Concission as recompense.

[VP Baltar]

@VBP: Is what Concession did scummy?

Where's my vote at?

Kinda defies the purpose, don't you think. If you asked him and only him specifically he'd of course think about the setup...

not necessarily

I think you may be seriously underestimating the competence of the Mafia and the amount of time and effort it really takes to diagnose a small and relatively simple open setup.

I disagree. It's about priorities. I doubt if I was mafia I would have even cared about the setup yet. That's not to say it's not something that could happen, but it's early game and it's important to put feelers out there quickly.

[VP Baltar]

I'LL GET TO YOU.

Right now we have Concission-scum and crypto not getting the setup right.

However, now that your love life is straightened out, I expect better than killing me for no reason this time around -___-

[VP Baltar]

However, why is SD town? I don't have any experience with him, so I'd take some insight.

I don't get the Percy or (parting of the) RedC hate either really...I see the image thing as pretty null early game messing about.

[VP Baltar]

Why is fate scum? Why are you not posting more than that garbage?

[VP Baltar]

This is where we play the cute scum game of ignoring the important questions, right?

[VP Baltar]

what do you think of Antitown, AGM?

[VP Baltar]

This is where we play the cute scum game of ignoring the important questions, right?

I think its the cute scum game where they keep their RVS vote for "mysterious" reasons instead of awkwardly trying to come up with a reason to push a mislynch or bus.

True dat. I'd probably be willing to lynch Anti-town today as well.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: I'd really love to get a response to my questions directed at you. Both the "garbage" question, and the one of you accusing me of "not-answering" your questions while you side-step around/ignore mine.

I really hope you're scum, because if you're not then this is just disappointing. Your vote is garbage because your posts up until that point included 1) some shitty lyrics or something as a reason to vote Fate, 2) reposting of the No U picture 3) declaratively stating Fate is scum AS IF YOU FUCKING EXPLAINED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Feel free to elaborate at any time. That is the question you're not answering and then trying to paint it as if I'm the one being obstinate. But that's cool, keep going down this road.

Possibly more to come, but I'll wait on VP before saying anything.

lmao. This is some funny shit right here. I anxiously await your more now that how shitty your Fate case was has been explained in full detail.

Coast all you want. Just be sure to let us know who your buddies are.

So now Fate is scum again three posts after you unvote him?

Was this supposed to be eagerly? How do you mispell a word that badly?

It's apparently a real word. I had to look it up, and I consider myself fairly well versed in the letters. Either SD has a strong vocab or a good thesaurus.

@Ythill - Your reads are pretty shitty so far this game. I expect more out of you if you're town.

I feel like only half the player list is really playing here. Even when people are posting, they aren't saying a lot and pressuring people. Kind of annoying and making it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[VP Baltar]

@Ythill - Your reads are pretty shitty so far this game.

Shitty for your team, yes.

You're going to have to do better than this. I'd like to hear your actual case on me in detail and also your reasons for believing in your town reads. There is too much 'hint, hint; wink, wink' going on this game. Everyone here is intelligent, I get it. No reason to be intentionally obtuse, as that just muddies the waters.

[VP Baltar]

meh, now antitown is feeling too easy. I don't care for this, but he's also not doing himself any favors. I want AT to get in here asap and explain the Fate case in detail.

[VP Baltar]

oh, trust me, I feel you. I hate those arguments too. I'm just trying to find out if AT is actually scum or simply a stubborn ass noob that is clutching to a bad argument out of pride.

plus we have lots of time left in the day.

[VP Baltar]

He never stated the reasons for voting or unvoting you. He is attacking me over questioning that vote. If he explains things so I can understand, then he will cease to be clutching. Unvoting to get people off your back isn't the same as an actual explanation.

[VP Baltar]

He was voting you for doing 'utterly nothing', then you fought over caps lock and he unvoted. Idk what that's all supposed to mean.

[VP Baltar]

On what grounds do you think it's random? Why is it a generic question?

On what ground should I think it is not?

Do you never answer questions directly? Jesus. You should not think it's random on the grounds that odds are I'm town and I was trying to generate discussion. On what grounds do you think it's random? Why is it a generic question?

Your reasoning is very hard not to laugh at. You intend to ask a specific person what their opinions of the Set-Up are then brand that person as town for stating their opinions of the Set-Up? What would you think scum would do, ignore you?

Try to contain yourself. I believe the scum would have been more inclined to sluff the question off with a 'I dunno' instead of trying to help the town. Sure, crypto got it wrong really, but it seemed like an honest effort at least. Certainly doesn't make him confirmed town by any means, but I work by observing and taking note of things.

Then you go on to call people who are scum-hunting scum because they didn't reply to your question specified to only Crypto.

orly? Where did this happen? Quotes please. Don't ignore this.

I don't get his vote on Concission, though.

I'll explain since people seem to be missing it. As I said earlier, I feel that Concission is making a mountain out of a molehill. Look at her iso at this point; it's highly concerned with me asking crypto and not everyone my question. I'm also scum for this. P. ridiculous for a townie to actually believe that, imo.

Still, crypto did say that he thought that the guillotined player didn't have a vote, and VP didn't say boo about it.

Yes, perhaps I should have jumped on him, but it did seem an honest effort even if it was horribly wrong. It's a gut feeling.

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way. And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

Baaaaah bahhhhhhhhhh

I argue we want the vig, redeemed soul, and tracker to claim at one day before must lynch. (or, if they're about to get lynched)

Even with random shots, they'd probably be dead at that point. If they are claiming to be confirmed, then it's better to do that earlier rather than later. However, I don't think day two is necessarily the day for that to happen.

VPB is scum for several reasons, the most important of which are:
1)Aggression in response to a fair question #34.
2)Cognitive dissonance, in that a town-aligned player with his stated views should be more suspicious of crypto by #78.
3)His scummy lean toward voting for the lead wagon in #108.

1) People that ask dumb questions in response to things that are actually trying to get the game moving get my ire.
2) Meh, not necessarily. Read my above post to Percy. crypto explained himself as having had very little sleep by that point. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not. I'm inclined to think not based upon my feeling from his words.
3) This one is completely ludicrous because I was one of the people actually questioning antitown. See post 87 onward. It's pretty clear that I'm giving AT the benefit of the doubt and trying to get him to explain his Fate stance...as opposed to several people that came later and essentially sheeped onto him.

As far as meta from your game, that's ludicrous. 1) You were the mod of that game and had perfect knowledge of the setup, therefore you may have found that I looked more accurate or whatever in my scumhunting early on because you knew who the scum were. 2) You have not played with me as far as I remember, so you're using half a meta from a single game at best. That's complete bunk and you've been around long enough to know that.

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

What? who the hell are you? Why is luck scum? Why is alamaster scum?

I've been wanting to play in a game with Percy for a long time just so he could bust out stuff like this and pwnzorz scum.

Meh, see my Percy response.

I didn't like the Concession attack because even Confession was being dumb, it was clearly noobdumb and not scumdumb.

Add in Percy's tell and it looks like he is scum busy looking for a nice, easy mislynch.

Really? Cause tunneling over something irrelevant is a pretty common noobscum tactic. I assume you think Concission is town, right? As far as the bolded, how is Concission an easy mislynch when no one seemingly agrees with my vote being there?

@Simenon - I've never played with you, but I've always though you were a pretty bright dude. Or at least that is the air you give off. I'm pretty disappointed with your contributions so far and that bothers me a lot. Can I get your comments on Concission, myself and Ythill please?

[VP Baltar]

Concission is combative without providing any real help to the town. I suggest people go back and actually read his "contributions" to the game. It's not just that he's had trouble getting purchase on the game as can happen, but it's that he's trying to seem active by picking some pretty pointless things to quibble over. Admittedly, his posts have come earlier on in the game. I'm looking for improvement from him, but I'm saying scum for now.

Oh hey, I <3 zoraster for having eyes. Also agree with him about Simenon.

Luck and VPB are scum.

I responded to your case...you have nothing to say in reply?

Oh, my feelings, Simenon. You think I'm fake. Alas!

Granted, you have no data on past games with me so if you happen to find a 'conversational tone' as scummy from your experience, then there's nothing I can do to turn you there so I won't argue for it.

Can you give me some specific examples of what you are thinking about from past games that matches your tone here?

FFS, can we lynch Luck yet?

This is some major BS right here. Why? What are we rushing for at the moment? We have until Feb. 27 to lynch and it's not like people are not contributing good content at the moment. There are several people I would like to get a better read on before this day is over. There is absolutely no reason to rush Day 1 in this game so it lasts just over 72 hours. That's fucking ridiculous and you need to explain your desire to lynch now.

[VP Baltar]

Yo, Antitown...y u no vote?

[VP Baltar]

I don't like this. I can feel a Mini 880 coming on.

Don't even joke about this.

[VP Baltar]

What's a mini 880?

ugh. Let's pretend it was never mentioned.

It's probably the worst, most frustrating game in MS history.

I'm not going to argue with you about my conclusions. If I'm right, I'm not letting you manipulate me. If I'm wrong, demonstrate it to me through your play.

I don't think it's really manipulation to ask you to respond to my counterpoints to your points. I'm not Troll and going to wall you to death. But anyhow. More relevant to my interests, how do you feel about Concission and me explaining my vote there? Why are you so convinced she is town?

[VP Baltar]

lol, mad scum scramble to take me out early. Pile on bros, I'm cool with that because my flip is going to make you have plenty of 'splainin to do.

Unvote, Vote: Ythill

I'll probably have actual responses to Percy in a bit, since he's probably misguided town. These last two votes are from scum though.

[VP Baltar]

The thing I noticed on my re-read was his read of Antitown. He's fairly clear on his scumread here, and without Antitown posting he declares the wagon/read "too easy" here. In between, Antitown didn't post at all. The only thing that changed was that Ythill said he was town, and Simenon echoing Fate's argument that keeping your RVS vote for too long is a scumtell. Also crypto jumped on the wagon. What in particular made you change your mind, VP?

I didn't care for the people sheeping Fate's point and going 'oh yeah, I think that too'. I never have thought AT hasn't been scummy, because he has and I didn't let my pressure off of him, but people like SD and Simenon chirping around the wagon without doing any of the work did give me pause. Still does.

This is twice that the VP-sass has been deployed against Antitown.

I'm pretty sassy by nature. Thought you knew this.

try to establish a noob/scum paradigm, if the player comes and participates and demonstrates non-noob then they must be scum, if they don't then they're useless and worth lynching even if they're not scum. This kind of argument really bothers me.

This is a pretty huge assumption you are making here. When have you ever seen me want to policy lynch anyone as town? I think about 2 seconds of meta would out me as scum if I ever made such a statement. Maybe that's how you play scum, but not me...so perhaps its best to consider what I'm saying as the actual truth.

Since this post, you haven't explained/elaborated on your crypto read. Do you trust him or not??

Disagree with your statement here. In fact, I hinted at my thoughts regarding him in reply to you when I said:

Yes, perhaps I should have jumped on him, but it did seem an honest effort even if it was horribly wrong. It's a gut feeling.
<snip>
Read my above post to Percy. crypto explained himself as having had very little sleep by that point. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not. I'm inclined to think not based upon my feeling from his words.

Both of which indicate that I got a town feeling from his posts. crypto is a pretty dense player for me to read, hence why I wanted to start sussing out his alignment early. I have a town feeling on him at this point, certainly not someone I would lynch today. I'm not willing to commit to a certainly town read at this point, but if I was a betting man I'd say town right now.



Now to explain my Ythill vote:

His stance of Imma not respond to what you said is malarkey. I think I provided a significant defense to the points he raised, and also pointed out that he was trying to use some kind of half-baked meta on a single game he modded as a 'bonus' reason in addition to the crap he spewed initially. However, I was still giving him the benefit of the doubt until this LuckayLuck business arose. He said:

FFS, can we lynch Luck yet?

To which I replied:

This is some major BS right here. Why? What are we rushing for at the moment?

After which, he said he was not rushing the day even though it had only been 72 hours. It was simply that:

My statement was more about Luck's increasing scumminess than the timetable, but I can see how it could be taken that way.

Soooooo, LL is so scummy that we need to lynch within 72 hours of the game starting. And yet, he flips back to me at the drop of a hat because I'm the leading wagon. Pardon if I find this more than a touch convenient to a scum's interests of 1) ending the day quickly 2) getting VPB out of the game. Now, also pay heed to the fact that LL hasn't even posted since Ythill was 'ZOMG LYNCH NAO'ing.

Again I ask: What's the rush, Ythill?

[VP Baltar]

Also, I've had like a bottle of wine (in front of me, hiyoooo), so sorry about any typos/run-on sentences above.

[VP Baltar]

RC, why is crypto on your scum list and higher than me? I don't even really see you accusing him of anything scummy, though maybe I'm missing something in the details.

[VP Baltar]

Christ, VPB, stop jumping ahead.

My B. Poo-poo wagons on me get me all fancy free and such, and then I just start spouting logic.

[VP Baltar]

Just skimming

That Baltar waggon needs to stop.

I coulds see Percy as scum, his reasoning to jump on that waggon felt really stretched to me.

More to come later...

Ythill is reaching much more. Don't afraid of him trying to act tough.

Here is the words of wisdom for the day, when an otherwise logical and thorough thinker stops being logical and thinking thoroughly, it's probably because s/he has an ulterior motive.

Percy could just be overly skeptical town. He's played with me plenty, so I expect him to give me a hard time until my alignment is painfully obvious.

[VP Baltar]

Scum
Luck (by a lot)

Shadow Dancer: zoraster, Ythill

lol, sure thing.

[VP Baltar]

@VPB: Why is it necessary for me to vote my top suspect at this juncture? I'll vote my townreads on D1 if it leads to information.

Yeah, I mean, you can use your vote however you please. However, my issue is that you have a scum read (by a lot) which there has been at least some kind of support for and yet you're not hardly pushing for that lynch at all. It makes absolutely no sense to vote your third scum suspect down (or whatever SD was on your list) for 'information' today when you could be putting the heat on and lynching someone you are utterly convinced is scum. Maybe we just play differently, but once I have a strong scum read, I'm not letting go until that person is dead. I figured you would appreciate this since you do not even like discussing your cases for fear of people manipulating you and getting away.

[VP Baltar]

Also, I'm not forgetting everyone that has asked me stuff over the past few days. I've been pretty busy with work and what little mafia time I've had has been dedicated to other games that are farther along. I plan to reply to everything in full this weekend when I have some more free time and I apologize for not being able to get to everything immediately as it has been posted.

[VP Baltar]

I am fully capable of being wrong and, even if I'm right, there's more than one scumbag. Weren't you the guy lambasting me for being in a hurry to lynch him not long ago?

My point is that your actions don't match your words.

As far as 'pretending' you're scum, my vote hasn't left you yet. Merely pointing out to others what I see pretty clearly.

[VP Baltar]

So he's not someone you're really interested in lynching, but you don't really care....

[VP Baltar]

Well, he is at L-1 and you said you're willing to lynch him...so obviously he is going to claim. I'm not sure what you mean zoraster.

[VP Baltar]

lol

Scum
Luck (by a lot)

[VP Baltar]

btw, this is me telling all you peeps out there that I'm still right with my Ythill vote. Time to wisen up and join the party.

[VP Baltar]

Hey Fate, in the game you played with Ythill where he was town, did he spend a lot of time D1 changing directions every other page? How would you compare his play here to that game?

[VP Baltar]

I don't see them as that different. You seem to me to be saying you're interested in applying pressure to your top scum reads, and yet it seems to me that you change your votes quite often, thus moving the direction of your game and relieving that pressure before it becomes anything meaningful. If you're so convinced that Luck or myself are scum, why are you not rallying the troops and trying to get a lynch instead of following whatever wagon happens to be leading at that time? Seems like a pretty ineffective way to gather the alignment information you are apparently after.

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler: Responses to people from earlier in the week

You seem to think everyone's on your wagon's scum?

That's not even remotely true. So far, the only two people that have voted me that I have said seriously have a chance of being scum are you and Ythill.

I am fully capable of being wrong and, even if I'm right, there's more than one scumbag. Weren't you the guy lambasting me for being in a hurry to lynch him not long ago?

It's pretty irrelevant what I was 'lambasting' you about earlier. The point is that you're not being consistent with your words of who is scum and who is not.

Maybe we just play differently, but once I have a strong scum read, I'm not letting go until that person is dead.

Aren't you supposed to be pretending you think I'm scum?

This does not make any sense and is a pretty pitiful attempt to paint me as changing my read on you. Explaining what I would do as town is me essentially using shorthand for: 'you're not doing something I expect a right thinking townie would do given your reads.'

Isn't this a blatant misrep? The quote says Ythill is talking about timetables, but then the analysis says he was saying, "NEED TO LYNCH NOW" … which he said wasn't what he meant, right?

You're saying my quote was referencing Ythill as talking about timetables? I'm confused. Ythill was making a statement that I don't think was in accordance with his claimed desire to gather info. You can choose to accept his explanation or not. I think it was perfectly legitimate to pressure over, AND I also think you're ridiculous if you believe otherwise.

Luck is still getting scummier by the post.

Please explain. I felt his trying to clear jarti of suspicion sounded very town like and completely unnecessary if he was scum.

D1 Lurkerscum lynches aren't very motivating.

So here you are saying that you agree with crypto that AGM is scum, but you don't want to lynch him cause he's the lurker scum. Also, that wasn't really the reason for voting him.

Does anyone else find Re' Coyo's tone/attitude kinda whack?

What do you mean by whack? RC is coming across to me as a pile of words without saying a ton that goes anywhere. I'm not sure if that's how he plays as town or not, since my experience with him is pretty limited.


zoraster stuff from around post 361 still kind of rubs me the wrong way...though it is also hard for me to believe that zoraster scum would post something so lazy at that point, regardless of AGM's alignment. Idk, still a bunch of weirdness in there that I haven't sorted out.

IMO, a vote is a tool. I can use it to lynch someone but that is far from the extent of its usefulness. If I'm alive beyond D3, a lot of the stuff I've been doing here is going to start making more sense. That's when you're going to see me being more focused and intent on getting my top suspects lynched. Until then... well... lynch me or don't. Your view of my alignment is really kinda beside the point.

Sigh. If you really believe this is good playing policy, then whatever. Voting like this is terrible and distracting at best. I still say you're being somewhat scummy in your play, but if this is all some D3 setup then I'm arguing theory with you and not alignments, which is equally useless. I will try to get some meta of you sometime in the near future, but I'm going to take your word on this for the moment (mostly because I've already spent enough time on this post and don't feel like metaing at the moment).

Unvote

@Crypto:
I see your AGM case and agree mostly with it. I've seen scum did what AGM did to me before. However, your e point I think is a reach.

Do you think all the rest of his points are valid though? Do you think AGM is scum? I see you say you're willing to vote him, so I'm presuming yes, but it's always good to have things on record.

I'll get to Concession when I've got time (tomorrow)

This was posted Friday...I'd like to hear it soon if at all possible.

NULL
<snip>
VP Baltar (Although I did think he was scum earlier, I'm putting him up here because there are people who are a lot scummier, and my ability to actually read him is limited)

I don't get this. You spent a good part of your post mentioning me, why you think I'm scummy and that people who think I'm town aren't doing enough to explain those reads....and then you say that you can't really read me. At least have the balls to call me scum if that's the way you want to go.

Why are you deleting the context from my post? Contextually, VPB said "concession is making mountains out of molehills." I said, "If anyone is doing that, it's you." Your question makes no sense given this back and forth.

I think what he's saying is that it was like 10 pages ago, find something more relevant to talk about. Which I agree with. I find it silly that people see a giant post and are calling you town for it because your previous effort was so bad. I think you should be talking about things that are much more relevant to the current state of the game.

Jarti: Mixed reactions. Reasons why I think he's scum:

Wait...weren't you calling him town not that long ago? *Reads some more* OK, so you are saying that now you think Jarti is scum because he backed down on his scum read of you after you defended him? Is that correct?

Some of the things VPB's said seem shifty.

...ok?

luck your conclusion based on how the antitown & agm wagons is awfully selective; you try to use the agm wagon as reason to re-wagon antitown and ignore the other wagons that have occurred in this game that got about as far as the antitown wagon originally did

why so

Oh, now you're back on LL pressure since he called you out on backing off? heh, maybe he has a point.

TL;DR

Well, this isn't a tl;dr in the proper sense because I'm not summing all that up. However, I will give my general reads at this point:

Scummy (in no particular order):
AGM
Simenon
Concission
Antitown

Null, but still kinda scummy:
Jarti
zoraster
Ythill

General null:
Shadow Dancer
Fate
Percy

Town:
crypto
LuckayLuck
Red Coyote


We have a lot of people floundering in the middle here and I don't like it. There are a lot of words in this thread and not much of it is saying anything in my opinion. People don't have a lot of conviction about what they are doing and are letting people slide.

Vote: Simenon

Time to pony up or die partner. I feel nothing of conviction from you all game and I'm not sure why. You keep appearing on people's scum lists, and yet people rarely vote you.

Additionally, I want to see what Antitown has to say when his V/LA ends tomorrow, but if it's not any better that what he's given so far this game, I think he's a great lynch and would certainly be willing to come over there. I put him in along with Concission and AGM for people that are coasting on my wagon and not actually scum hunting at all. None of these people are making legit arguments against me, and yet the clutch the wagon hoping against hope that I'll get lynched by default at deadline. Not gonna happen scumzors, so you best try harder.

My apologies for the super post. I'll try not to get behind next week so I don't have to make one like this again.

[VP Baltar]

show me an insincere argument that I didn't later account for.

I never called you insincere really, but I do think you're being kind of a limp noodle when it comes to your scumhunting this game. You've been dancing around the things I've said about Concission for awhile without much force and now you're picking up that you've been called out. I kind of also was getting the vibe of you cheering from the sidelines when people were making their LL and AGM cases. I just don't see a great deal of commitment from you on your reads. I do like that you seem to be getting a little more fire in your belly now that my vote is on you.

Also VPB did you seriously just use the word "scumzors"?

>.> It's this damn pokemon avatar.

I already did. What you quoted was prompted by #323. Now look two posts above yours.

Yeah, you ninja'd me.

The primary proponents of the VPB wagon were Ythill and Percy. I agreed with it; I know there were some others on it as well. here's what you have to say about them:

Well, you're one for two. Ythill I will give is actively pushing my terrible wagon. Concission and you are/were both riding old ass votes that you can't hardly defend, and Percy hasn't made a meaningful post in days due to illness. I find it pretty ludicrous that I'm the leading wagon due to THAT.

You have me as a high scumread. Are there reasons other than this?

The main reason you're on my scumlist is similar as to why I'm voting Simenon...playing the game from the sidelines. As the day has thickened, we've seen some people actually scum hunting and others, such as yourself, just going along with others and not really doing a whole lot while clutching to votes as long as possible. I'm inclined to believe that there is scum in the mess of people that are without true direction.


So far I like GlaDOS' analysis, but I also know that he's a very accomplished player, so I'm still a little wary given Antitown's behavior and poor Fate vote explanation. Probably willing to give GlaDOS some more time in the game though before I make a judgement on alignment.

[VP Baltar]

You are not my top suspect any more; however, Ythill is still making good points. What do you expect me to do, be the spearhead of every single wagon?

Have you been the spearhead of any thought in this game?

I'm not clutching to anything; I unvoted you and voted LL based on reads I garnered during my re-read.

Up until your unvote, you were clutching. Additionally, that unvote only came after you were prompted.

[VP Baltar]

Antitown should be GLaDOS in the last votecount, hito

Ah, I replaced 3/4ths of the "Antitown"'s with "GlaDOS"'s, but missed the most important one. thanks! -hito

[VP Baltar]

Concission is lurking hard. It's also worth noting that the sky is blue. For some reason I was waffling on my read on her. But looking back at her text walls, I don't see so much as a semblance of scum hunting, and truly insightful comments are few and far between. Nothing she's said looks like there's much if any honest inquisitiveness to it.

Remember when I was saying all of this stuff pages and pages ago?

[VP Baltar]

in fact,

Unvote, Vote: Concission

So down with this.

[VP Baltar]

Fate, you owe me. Pay attention and I'll show you how to win this game.

[VP Baltar]

Vote Concission as you learn. It's the right thing to do.

[VP Baltar]

ALSO, WOULD YOU CALL YOURSELF A MORAL CONSEQUENTIALIST OR DO YOU BELIEVE IN NATURAL/INALIENABLE MOD-GIVEN RIGHTS?

lol

[VP Baltar]

So, when does Concission get lynched? 25 pages is the maximum for useful D1 info in a mini...best get our business together people.

[VP Baltar]

Best get your business together when I flip town scumbag.

k. More votes now.

[VP Baltar]

@concission:

How many games have you played with me in the past?

1
1-5
5-10
>10

[VP Baltar]

I also don't think we need anymore walls. The zombies won't penetrate our fortress tonight, so lets leave the bricks and mortar at home for now.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not opposed to hearing cases on people other than Concission. We do have time. I just don't want to spend days arguing over 3-4 different wagons.

How about we play a new game called competing bandwagons. We run the two scummiest players up to L-1 and then people are forced to decide what lynch they would rather be on. If you don't like Concission (this includes you Fate), then let's get another good wagon going and make people pick sides.

[VP Baltar]

Not complaining, but I do think that if you are that sure it's going to be a mislynch then you should vote somewhere else. Lynching whoever is most likely to be scum should always be your top priority. Of course I asked you to join because I think concission has at least a decent chance of flipping scum, but you should listen to your heart if you don't believe me and vote accordingly.

Two warring wagons at the end of D1 is optimal town play when one of those wagons is on scum.

VPB too, but I doubt he'd provide the kind of polarizing competition we need.

I'm going to pretend this means that everyone loves me instead of everyone hates me and wants me dead.

[VP Baltar]

I think an LL counterwagon is terrible. RC could be a good choice though.

[VP Baltar]

I'm still with you crypto. I really think it's just people being pig-headed and not actually looking at what concission says (or rather, does not say). Lynching her would likely be very revealing.

[VP Baltar]

Prod avoidance post....have to say I'm not so enthused about this game lately, but I will get something decent up either tonight or tomorrow when I actually read through some of these larger posts.

[VP Baltar]

Fate, give me the tl;dr...why is RC caught scum?

[VP Baltar]

I meant actual reasons and not just Fate-bravado. nevermind then.

[VP Baltar]

Actually reading right now (as a way to avoid doing my taxes...though I don't know which is more mind-numbing ) Incoming post.

[VP Baltar]

Hypocriscy??
Sometimes I wonder what you are saying is really what you mean VPBaltar.

I don't really see the hypocrisy there. I never told people to leave your wagon. I said that if there were people dissatisfied with it, then they should all pile on a second suspect. Those things don't necessarily lead to each other.

I don't really understand your issue with competing wagons either. It's an excellent D1 tool for the town because it forces people to make choices that they are then accountable for in the future instead of just sluffing off on some random wagon that obviously isn't going to happen and thus providing less information.

I kind of like Glados' case on RC...I have to admit. I do think some of it is overblown a touch, but some of the wagon hopping points may be relevant. The problem is that RC drowns with words back. I'm finding hard to tell if he's making sincere replies or just trying to lull me out with words.

Crypto & Fate have given hard stances, I know where there heads are at and don't feel much scum intent. Good town reads.

Crypto I can see definitely. Fate...not so much. I don't think he's been doing all that much this game and now he's using wall posting as an excuse to continue not doing anything. Pretty meh on him at this point.

AGM & RC feel very connected to me. Most recently AGM going for a different counterwagon (even though it would be a good one) when the RC counterwagon begins. AGM I feel has been a lot more careless with his vote than when I'd expect from seeing his town play before. His 'spearhead every wagon' comment to VPB screams scum to me. Also see earlier jarti posts on him. Also see earlier jarti 5 for RC/AGM vibes.

A+ on this. I really didn't like how snippy AGM got there either. He's defending his own non-action in this game with hyperbole.

This game is entering the stalling / too long / I don't care zone. The Concession wagon looks scum propelled. Concession also still reads town. The only other wagon sitting here right now is RC. The people on that wagon look Fine. RC reads as he usually does to me (too difficult to read), so:

I'd still lynch this scumbag today too. Fucking terrible all game...I'm actually more confident in AGM scum than Concission scum at this point.

LL's case on Glados is pretty derpy at best. First, you can't really use a replacement's play against the replacing player. At best it's corraborating evidence, and yet it makes up a majority of the case here. Thumbs down. Then when you do get to the points against GLaDOS it's pretty weak stuff such as 'having odd suspects' (wtf?) and 'ignoring the case you made'. Not really sold on that at all.

Jarti case is slightly better, but I read her scum list as sincere enough that I don't think she's a good lynch today. Need more data. Everything you use to link them is circumstantial and poor scumhunting on D1 anyhow. Let's save the connections for when we have some flips.

Unvote, Vote:RC

I still feel like Concission hasn't contributed at all and I see no reason that she SHOULDN'T be lynched...but RC does bother me enough on an intuitive level that I think his lynch is acceptable today. If nothing else, I'd like to sort out this clusterfuck around LL-RC-GLaDOS. There is something that feels unnatural about that entire interaction and it really doesn't seem to be coming from GLaDOS. Maybe I'm being lulled because he talks purdy and uses logic and such.

Also, there's lurker scum definitely hanging out within:
AGM
Simenon
zoraster
Concission

[VP Baltar]

Wow, LL's case is really good, this is the most convincing case I've seen so far in the game. The meta on Antitown looks accurate.

Meta from a single game...you seriously think that's how meta works?

[VP Baltar]

LL's case on Glados is pretty derpy at best. First, you can't really use a replacement's play against the replacing player. At best it's corraborating evidence, and yet it makes up a majority of the case here. Thumbs down.

Unbelievable. Of course you can use a replacement's play against the replacing player.
Are you suggesting we throw away everything Antitown has done?

At best it's corraborating evidence

Additionally, I'll ask you the same thing I just asked Concission...do you really feel like one game is reliable meta on anyone?

[VP Baltar]

Additionally, if you've looked at all, you can see that Antitown has not been on site since he left this game. This makes me believe that it is possible his RL situation was flaring up before he replaced out and it may have contributed to his abysmal play here. I do find it slightly ridiculous to hold GLaDOS responsible for that and I think at best you're experiencing confirmation bias here.

[VP Baltar]

LL, my point is that you're starting with your conclusion (GLaDOS and Jarti are on a scumteam) and working backward from it. I thought Anti was scummy earlier too, but if you are looking at the way he fell out of the game, you have to at least consider that it was simply because he didn't care about the game and was essentially trying to 'fake it till you make it.' Lots of townies have done this in the past. That is the bulk of your points against GLaDOS. I really don't want to get into hardcore defending GLaDOS because he can do that himself and I'm certainly not THAT confident of his alignment, but I will say without a doubt that regardless of his alignment you are majorly exaggerating your case.

Making connections on D1 without a flip and only using circumstantial evidence like 'they didn't really mention each other early' is more often than not going to be wrong. There are probably several players you could say that about this game. Ythill and zoraster don't seem to be talking about each other much...doesn't mean they are scum together.

also, you never answered my question about meta. Do you think one previously completed game (first on site!) is a sufficient definition of a player's town or scum play? I most certainly do not.

[VP Baltar]

Do you believe it is possible for a town player to have a bad game and/or become overwhelmed with RL? I certainly do. Small sample size is small and you're bending evidence to fit your case. I still think you're town, but you have to learn to let go of things when they don't stand on their own.

[VP Baltar]

He's saying that she followed LL's meta case, calling it good and what not, when that type of meta is so obviously flawed it's insanity.

I really don't like that people are scattering all over the place as we head toward deadline. I call scum shenanigans.

[VP Baltar]

We also still need a claim and time to assess said claim.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Concission

Vote here now everyone.

[VP Baltar]

VPs attempt to derail the righteous RC wagon is

a stupid comment from Fate considering there wouldn't even be a RC wagon without VPB telling Fate to put his vote where he believed it should be.

I agree with Sim and everyone else saying lynch and shut up. Either RC or Concission needs to go. Get on it now. If you're voting elsewhere, it's not happening, so pick the worse of these two and get your ass in gear so we can move on.

[VP Baltar]

Therein lies the mistake.

You think I only voted RC because you said I should.

Do tell then. We can only go by what you say in thread, and that's exactly what it looks like.

[VP Baltar]

@zor - we're not lynching shadow today. move on. I don't know if he is scum or not, but I'm also not concerned with it at this moment because it's not happening today.

[VP Baltar]

keep making excuses. I don't really care, just don't expect me to believe you.

[VP Baltar]

You get to paint it however you like, but your vote on SD and non-presence in the thread isn't going to make that lynch happen. It's now 29 pages and people are just dawdling, so it's time for someone to compromise and I don't think it makes sense to say that the majority wagons should compromise to the minority wagons.

[VP Baltar]

Hey, I have an idea:

Get to her room
Open the door
Get on the floor
Everybody walk the dinosaur

[VP Baltar]

In all seriousness...there is a lot of scum fuckery happening today. I believe there is a scum being wagoned here and that's why we are not making any progress. If both RC and Concission were townies, then the scum would just pile on and end the day. 1v1 reveals scum yet again due to scum stalling and bullshittery. We definitely need to lynch out of these two today.

[VP Baltar]

It doesn't make sense because you bitch about random useless wagons popping up and then you vote a random useless wagon. I'm good with lynching AGM tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

sigh. I am voting for the person I want. This is a gigantic circle jerk, as my dear friend crypto stated. Shoot me in the face now because we should have lynched already.

[VP Baltar]

This is a terrible way to lynch and actually makes me think Simenon is more likely to be town.

I would like everyone opposed to the Concission wagon (Fate, Ythill et. al.) to tell me what exactly she has done this game that you find protown. Specific examples of scumhunting are required. If you cannot provide them, then I am to assume that you do not have them.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Simenon

Claim.

[VP Baltar]

Hurry the hell up. We're not waiting for you. This game is badly stalled and needs to move forward...hence why people piled on Simenon. Not sure why you are commenting on the current game state if you don't even know what is going on.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Concission

Sim's not scum. Get over it scumbags cause we're not lynching him.

Fate, help me lynch Concission, seriously bro.

@LL - if you help me lynch concission today and she doesn't flip scum, I will vote your choice out of jarti and Glados tomorrow. For realz.

[VP Baltar]

I don't chain lynches despite what I believe to be likely....that's terrible policy. As I said earlier ( I think it was this game), every day requires evaluation of the current game state and the flip.

Additionally, Conc is more likely scum, and therefore the one I want to lynch, as lynching scum is better than lynching town to lynch scum the next day.

[VP Baltar]

Double scumpoints for VPB for placing the L-1, demanding a claim, and then calling for wagon dissolution, all while stating the opinion that Sim is town. Does he seriously play this poorly as town?

Well herp a derp, I actually like to lynch scum. You really think Simenon is scum or just a lynch to end the day? Concission is scum and given the quality of your reads this game, I can without a doubt say I'm playing better than you and I haven't even seen people flip yet.

[VP Baltar]

crypto....why are you and I the only sane people in this game?

I really hate to lynch Simenon just to prove a fucking point about how illogical you are being Ythill, but I'm considering it. Simenon doesn't even look that scummy at this point and you just want to lynch him because 'well, dat'll do pig' ... which is a terrible way to play mafia. Sorry, but I have higher expectations for experienced players than that.

[VP Baltar]

Hyperbole abounds!

Just because someone claims VT does not mean you should lynch them as a matter of policy. If you play mafia like that, then you're nothing more than a wiki-sheep who is intent on losing games. I only went along with Ythill to see where he was going, then I voted Sim to demonstrate how dumb the plan was so we could move on. Sim sounds genuine in his claim and with his frustration that he's dead. Learn to read motivation. I don't think it's likely he's scum trying to pull the wool over our eyes...ergo, I want to lynch someone that is actually scum, ie Concission. To suggest that we're just running people up to out VTs is empty fucking rhetoric.

[VP Baltar]

So you read Sim's claim as being faked, right? I just want to be clear that you're confident he'll flip scum.

[VP Baltar]

I've already stated why I wagoned him. Try reading cause I'm not repeating. Also, stop fence sitting. Do you right now think Sim is going to flip scum? Y/N

[VP Baltar]

Isn't the more economical option to have GLaDOS shoot

[VP Baltar]

whoops...don't hit sumbit on accident

...have Glados shoot someone that isn't on the guillotine? He'll be dead after tonight most likely, so why not have him take a crack at thinning the herd more and possibly hitting a mafioso (since Sim is most likely town).

Vote: concission

[VP Baltar]

You've already been caught Concission. I don't need to look any further until you're lynched today (as should have happened yesterday).

[VP Baltar]

I'm not off the radar as far as I know. I've constantly been contributing to the thread (more /in than you!). I also don't understand what you mean by 'caught bussing' my ass....who is bussing who...wtf? are you talking about.

[VP Baltar]

zoraster and AGM, with the latter being the worst of the two.

Then there are a lot of middling people like Jarti and Fate who I would suspect if things were not cleaned up after you three.

[VP Baltar]

hint hint Concission...one of you and RC is scum. (it's you)

Also, I think it's funny you are trying to base your reads on my alignment, which you do not know. This is classic scum trickery...and lazy at that.

[VP Baltar]

@concission - what

is

your opinion of AGM and zoraster btw?

[VP Baltar]

What a surprise. I totally didn't see that flip coming. Let's lynch Concission now.

[VP Baltar]

so, had simenon flipped scum, you're saying you would have unvoted me jarti? Correct?

[VP Baltar]

I voted Sim yesterday so he would claim and then we could move on. You guys wanted to herp-a-derp all day and follow Ythill's atrocious plan of crappy voting majority (with VV voting from page 7, that totally makes sense!)...so I was trying to hurry the process along so we could actually get to lynching scum. This is probably one of the worst towns I have ever been a part of and I honestly have no idea why you guys will not wake up and see that there is scum between RC and Concission. crypto was my last hope for sanity here, and even he's decided to play awfully now.

Let me give you guys a huge hint as to what would have happened if Simenon had been scum yesterday: 1) there wouldn't have been a voting majority on him with the way Ythill put his poor analysis together. 2) He would have claimed tracker or possibly Vig in an effort draw the counterclaim.

This is really mafia 101 shit and I shouldn't have to be explaining such things. If we don't lynch out of RC and Concission today, then this town is completely hopeless and the scum deserve to win.

RC was at L-3 or higher for no less than four days yesterday. That means he's either scum or the scum were already filling his wagon. Notice how many people are also saying little to nothing about Concission this game...or worse yet giving her a town read on her complete lack of contribution? Learn to see the forest for the trees. There is scum between them because there is mountains of scum motivation in either case.

Meanwhile, we have lynched Simenon after a freaking obv. town VT claim and now the scum are trying to get me out of the way.

Additionally..I may need to amend my zoraster read. He was on Concission a lot yesterday, which makes me feel slightly better about him. He does need to get in thread and contribute though.

I'll have replies to specific stuff maybe later if I have the time and feel like it. In the meantime, open your eyes town.

[VP Baltar]

Don't try to push suspicion aside to Conc and RC now (knowing that I would even follw you).

WTF...what do you mean now? I've been saying this same thing since way back yesterday. I've wanted Concission lynched since I don't even know when. You think this is new?

If you were really that sure Sim was town you would not have hard core waggoned him and forced a claim but defended him pushed another waggon.

I hardcore waggoned him? Really? I suggest you go reread that section and check back with me if you still have that same opinion.

[VP Baltar]

@crypto - what's your read on Fate...I don't like him at all here but I can't tell if he's being belligerent or just plain scummy.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not entirely opposed to lynching RC today. I really don't like how long he was at L-3 or L-2 and still managed to skate out of the lynch...though that partially falls on Ythill's door because it was his plan that got him out of it. I want to reread that section and see who flopped onto the Sim wagon with intent to lynch someone other than RC.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, your statement of "open your eyes" town could become very ironic should Concission actually be a townie. I want to just trust you and go for her, but those villager qualities of her prevent me from doing so - I'll list them out later and you can attempt to shoot them down later.

It is possible I could be wrong and I am open to discussion on that. What kills me is that people are utterly ignoring her as a possibility in favor of pushing really bad lynches. I think serious discussion and pressure on Concission is a productive avenue at this juncture. Despite my strong words, I am not saying she is 100% going to flip scum because I do agree with you that she has moments of towniness....but she also has a lot of moments of scuminess too that are valid. Talking about these things will help us get to the bottom of things faster.

@crypto - I get where you are coming from and honestly it's not the first time I've heard someone have those same doubts on me as town. The thing is that when I have a strong town read, I'm not afraid to simply say so. You've been the only other person in this game that I've consistently felt cares about the crappy road we are going down. Everyone else is either scum or being kind of lazy. I know there is WIFOM involved so you'll just have to take it for what it is I guess.

I want to look back at the dissolution of the RC wagon...that is niggling at my thoughts in terms of a good place to look for scum.

[VP Baltar]

Why are you suddenly trying Fate? I'm confused.

[VP Baltar]

Thanks for letting us know, Fate. You don't have to talk anymore now if you don't want to.

lol

On a serious note guyz, I'm pretty sure LuckayLuck is an overly lost townie. He really believed in his Jarti GLaDOS case for me to think he's scum at this point.

[VP Baltar]

hint: Ythill had terrible reads this game.

Anyhow, no one is giving him a pass for anything. I just don't think he makes sense as a lynch candidate today.

People who do make sense are Concission, RC, AGM and ShadowDancer.

[VP Baltar]

Tell me about Concission and AGM.

This is directed at me?

[VP Baltar]

Maybe he looked like a PR. Or like someone who wasn't going to get lynched...which is likely considering almost everyone agreed he was town. All I can say is that he wanted Simenon and myself lynched and I know we're both town. He also was stamping his feet about Concission town for no reason, which I think is likely in accurate.

[VP Baltar]

Sounds kinda weak.

Well, it's more like complete and utter WIFOM. Though if you think Ythill had his reads right, you probably need to change yours. Luckay and myself were pretty high on his list as far as I recall and we're quite low on yours. I honestly don't think Ythill was killed over reads.

[VP Baltar]

Jarti and AGM race to become the biggest scum of them all! You guys don't have to fight. We have plenty of rope for everyone.

[VP Baltar]

Why did you vote zoraster there?

[VP Baltar]

Zor, you think I'm potentially scum with either of your top suspects? Also, why is "the concission thing done"? As far as I can see, nothing was resolved regarding concission. Is she a town read for you at this point? If yes, why?

[VP Baltar]

@zoraster - I was not saying you claimed I was buddies with them, you misunderstand me. I was asking because I think it is important to understand your full position on the current game state. There wasn't a presupposed answer to it.

re:concission - please answer the first (and most important) question. Why has your opinion on concission changed? if I am missing something you already said about it, please point me in the right direction.

@crypto - the thing that worries me about AGM on some level was a marathon game I played with him on Sunday. He sort of had the same devil may care attitude about that game (though certainly not the same as this game) and he was town. Idk, I find everything he does stupendously scummy, but I can't help but wonder if he really just doesn't give two shits about this game.

[VP Baltar]

VPB keeps saying that both zoraster and I are scum

lol, seriously? I had that feeling at the start of the day today, which I amended shortly after. Looking at my iso, there are only two posts where I linked you and that was short lived. Do tell where I 'keep' saying it though, considering that your big ass theory above hinges on it.

[VP Baltar]

@RC - why do you start your post pointing out the huge discrepancy in thought continuity from Jarti and then call her one of your favorite town reads?

[VP Baltar]

@AGM - I would say my read on zoraster is more middle of the road null at this point. He's delivered some content that I like, but I don't like the way he hasn't been here much, is trying to dictate what lynch is or is not viable today and then disappears again for more V/la. Thread needs a lot more zoraster so I can form an opinion that isn't easily swayed. Now you can answer my questions instead of dodging them.

Unvote, Vote:AGM

[VP Baltar]

1) already answered
2) because I already stated that Ythill's wagoning method made no sense and people put their fingers in their ears. I was tired of the day and was trying to get it to the fastest conclusion possible instead of having an argument that people weren't going to listen to me on anyhow when they were just sheeping bad logic in the first place.
3) already answered
4) already answered

[VP Baltar]

Tell me do you really want to hurt me
Do you really want to make me cry-y-y

I'm really not trying to be a jerk SD, but I did answer those questions already. I'll do quotes later for you. I'm just a fairly busy dude and don't have time to be repeating myself most of the time.

[VP Baltar]

@RC - What do you think are the biggest conclusions out of the Ythill and Simeon flips?

[VP Baltar]

@Fate - do you agree with Jarti's analysis that Simenon was one of your top suspects yesterday, yet you were hesitant to lynch him?

[VP Baltar]

I like how AGM has the scummiest reaction possible to getting lynched. P. Funneh.

@SD - I have been busy preparing my taxes this week (finished them a few minutes ago!) and that was the explanation for the delay. I apologize. You could have taken the initiative to look it up probably, but I will get those quotes for you now:

You say you considered him townie and didn't like the waggon and just wanted to speed up the process so town could move on. Now tell me:
i.) What would be the townie motivation to demnand a claim and set some one, whom one considers to be town, on the bring of death?

I voted Sim yesterday so he would claim and then we could move on. You guys wanted to herp-a-derp all day and follow Ythill's atrocious plan of crappy voting majority (with VV voting from page 7, that totally makes sense!)...so I was trying to hurry the process along so we could actually get to lynching scum.

iii.) How did a VT claim convince you to unvote? Even if you don't agree with the site policy of lynching claimed VTs you certainly knew about it (you pointed out something about blind wiki-followers or something like that) and hence you must have known the consequences of a claim. (Well, I guess this now basically loops back to i.)...)

Let me give you guys a huge hint as to what would have happened if Simenon had been scum yesterday: 1) there wouldn't have been a voting majority on him with the way Ythill put his poor analysis together.

2) He would have claimed tracker or possibly Vig in an effort draw the counterclaim.

iv.) Why wouldn't, in your opinion, scum just have claimed VT?

I'll explain further on this one rather than just pointing you to the above bolded, even though I think it is self-evident. Essentially, scum have no incentive to claim VT in that case exactly because of the 'lynch VT site-meta' you are lambasting me about. This is an open game, so scum know exactly what roles are in play and what they need to do to get those roles out of play and gain the advantage. If Sim-scum claims VT there, 9 times out of 10 he's just going to get lynched anyway because that's how most towns role. So, he is going to benefit his team much more by claiming Tracker in that situation and attempting to out the real tracker. He may still get lynched, but he greatly improves the chances of his team winning the overall game by playing it that way. That is why scum, particularly a smart player like Simenon, never would have claimed VT in that situation.

[VP Baltar]

People follow me like lost puppies? I was wagoned at the start of the day and very few people seem to actually be listening to me. I'm glad that now you're dead you're trying to act like you've had initiative this game. There there.

@Baltar: Your assumption that scum would neccesarily claim a PR is naive at best

*Checks user date.

Cool story, bro. Additionally, I like how you're giving me shit about it BECAUSE I WAS RIGHT. What you're saying doesn't even make sense. Yeah, scum isn't going to try to out the tracker because that's not as good as keeping their credibility for one more day before inevitable death.

Also,

The point is that you pressed a claim and hence a sure lynch on some one that you considered a townie although you knew that it would mean his doom.

No. But perhaps I gave this town too much credit for being able to read motivation. So, that's my B.

Lynch AGM now.

[VP Baltar]

I'm ok with a shadow lynch...but why are we letting AGM scum off the hook exactly?

I do think Jarti's point is valid. I seem to recall Ythill pointing out yesterday that SD was on every single major wagon that happened.

[VP Baltar]

AGM sure got unpopular quickly for nothing he did whatsoever.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, that seems like an odd perspective to me, particularly coming from the people that were against letting Sim live yesterday. AGM's reaction and claim are far worse than Sim's were. Does not compute.

[VP Baltar]

I agree that it looks like a bus from SD, but a scum in hand is worth two on the gallows....or something like that. Killing AGM is a good idea.

[VP Baltar]

Why have you been on my ass so much today if I'm a strong town read SD? Also, what do you mean by erratic?

[VP Baltar]

Also, good to see you AGM. Anything else to comment on other than your willingness to hammer and save your ass for another day? Cause I very much object to that.

[VP Baltar]

Here is something I'd like you to answer AGM, why is SD scum? You haven't said really much of anything about him all game, and especially not any kind of scum read lately.

[VP Baltar]

I think I figured out who Concission is possibly. -__- if I'm right, I will only say that you haven't been so good at reading me in the past.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, that makes no sense zoraster.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I would never out you. I was just pointing it out as a personal point between us.

Anyhow, can you tell me what about his reaction seems townish to you? It seems over the top and excessively whiny more than frustration to me. What do you think of his subsequent and unexplained SD vote?

[VP Baltar]

I just don't think he would (be able to) make up something as "THE VC WAS WRONG" if he were scum. You are scum, you'll have a trend towards certainty.

I don't think he faked it. I think he read Jarti's post and actually believed there was an error in the VC....therefore his reaction wasn't made up as much as it was actual frustration that he thought he was lynched scum.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I should totally spend my time trying to convince scum they are scum.

The case on you is that you haven't done shit all since the start of the game and you are desperate to lynch people who are not you. Your reactions are way over the top and you trying to play a bully is lol-scumtastic. Don't be hating cause you got the red role PM.

If any town member actually thinks that anything AGM said above came from a town perspective, then I feel sorry for you. I am willing to put my life in this game on the line for an AGM lynch.

Also, quite to the contrary of what AGM is saying, I actually think he could be scum with SD. This bravado out of nowhere over a single vote from him is pretty laughable and not genuine in the slightest.

[VP Baltar]

I'm just more confident on AGM. I do agree that SD looks terrible with his vote, but really everything AGM does looks terrible. I don't like the fact that he gets to L-1 and his wagon is just poof gone. If people are dead set on SD today, then I will compromise and help lynch there. I honestly think they are partners though, so lynching AGM would bring me a personal satisfaction. But you are probably right that if that's the case than I am making a fuss about nothing and I'm probably just letting my ego get in the way.

Also, regarding Concission, if I am right about AGM-SD, then it's probably less likely she is scum.

[VP Baltar]

If you can do that as early as possible Glados, that would be great. I really want your opinion on the AGM/SD situation.

[VP Baltar]

I actually think it would be more informative for VV to toss the hammer since we don't know his alignment. Glados should definitely advise, but VV picking could be quite informative.

[VP Baltar]

I actually think it would be more informative for VV to toss the hammer since we don't know his alignment. Glados should definitely advise, but VV picking could be quite informative.

The problem with this is that we essentially have to wait a day longer than normal for this to pay dividends, now that our vigilante has shot.

True. Well it was just a thought. I am fine with Glados hammering. He's a good player, so maybe it is better to just give him the power.

[VP Baltar]

Fate, I mean that GLaDOS is a good scum hunter. Hint: that's not his main account.

[VP Baltar]

That's fine...but also irrelevant. (also it has nothing to do with posting style, I know for a fact what the main account is)

The point is that he will be choosing between AGM and SD to lynch. He is a good scumhunter (regardless of role-claiming choices) and therefore is more likely to pick scum out of the two of them in the off-chance that they are not both scum.

[VP Baltar]

So just for the record RC, you think it is like at least one, if not two of Fate/crypto is scum?

[VP Baltar]

Take back all the nice things I said about you GLaDOS. That was bad scumhunting.

[VP Baltar]

I don't understand how AGM wagon keeps deflating every time it gets to L-1. This is ridiculous this close to deadline.

[VP Baltar]

VV, you are wasting time. Fate has a certain suspicious air about him, but lynching him today instead of AGM or SD is the same exact mistake that was made yesterday when you guys lynched Sim instead of Concission or RC. Live and learn from your mistakes.

[VP Baltar]

AGM gave a scum list here that included Fate, but not SD.

Not sure why this isn't setting off any alarm bells for you.

How is lynching someone that has that much suspicion on him a mistake?

How was lynching Simenon a mistake? I rest my case. Mutual agreement is not always the best way to lynch because you are ignoring the fact that the scum will lynch ANYONE to stay out of a noose. This was the flaw with Ythill's plan and it's even more glaring in yours a day from deadline. Meanwhile, you have two scumbags that get to L-1 MULTIPLE times and somehow skate out of the noose. Give me a break.

[VP Baltar]

Scum ready to lynch anyone already had plenty of opportunity to pile onto SD or AGM

Yeah I agree. So where are your alarm bells? Why is there so much opposition to these wagons actually resulting in a lynch? If they're town, then scum should be hunky dory with it happening.

[VP Baltar]

what is the current site meta? I don't see why noone would have the balls to hammer.

I am glad Glados put in so much effort into his analysis. I can say in my own case he's wrong. Perhaps not in Fate or RC. My issue is I don't understand why a town player would get to L-1 with general support, as you're saying, and yet neither of them can manage to be lynched. It's hard to understand a scum's motivation for not hammering one of the players at that point. You get what I'm saying?

[VP Baltar]

This was all gone over D1 GLaDOS. I was pressed on it and I replied. The tl;dr of it was that I felt he was being sincere even though he did mess up on it. Maybe I could have pressed harder, and perhaps it was even a mistake on my part not to, but he didn't really read as being insincere to me even when he was wrong.

Do you feel I've been going through the motions this entire game? When I tried to get people to see how bad the Sim lynch was? Is something from like page 2 really the best scumhunting you can do on page 50?

What are your thoughts on why both SD and AGM make it to L-1 multiple times and cannot be lynched?

[VP Baltar]

... Processing ...

How about I ask you a different question instead of answering yours. (Hint: I'm Town and I'm not voting Shadow Dancer or AlmasterGM, so that rather suggests to me that scum are on the wagon, and are not on the wagons I have been pushing).

Why is it I managed to get a RedCoyote wagon on D1 that dissipated when Fate decided to vote for himself when Ythill asked players to vote their "top suspects"? In case you forget, RedCoyote was

also

at L-1 on Day One. So was Concission. Is there a particular reason you focus on ShadowDancer and AlmasterGM?

The fact that they have had wagons on them "multiple times" is apparently the distinction you want to draw. But you fail to consider that after Ythill and Simenon died, I suddenly seem to be unable to get a wagon on RedCoyote. Why do you think that might be?

I actually said the same damn thing about RC yesterday when I was trying to get people to choose between him and Concission actually.

I am currently debating about if I should switch my vote to SD or not at this point, though I feel pretty comfy on AGM.

[VP Baltar]

I always get anxious at deadlines

[VP Baltar]

SD can you give me an analysis of your wagon.

RC - you think SD is scum still?

Luckay & Concission - it'd be good if you actually said a bit more today.

[VP Baltar]

lol, definitely not who I was thinking of...but my point about not reading me correctly at least stands

[VP Baltar]

Also, I call complete bullshit on AGM's voting and then leaving for five days of V/LA. He's been pulling this run and duck crap all game. If SD flips town, he is certainly scum.

[VP Baltar]

Also, I call complete bullshit on AGM's voting and then leaving for five days of V/LA.

Yeah, seriously, how dare he leave for 5 days. I can't even think of a town motivation for his priorities.

Is this sarcasm?

[VP Baltar]

Vote: RedCoyote

Pressure's on big boy. VPB-Fate FTW. Let the hater's hate.

[VP Baltar]

They don't make much sense from your perspective...what an adept refutation of them. Happy with my vote.

[VP Baltar]

Do you think SD is scum?

[VP Baltar]

I'm debating that. However, the longer he takes to post his post-lynch wrap up, the more I am going to think that's the case. He was giving me town vibes at the end though...that's why I don't like RC.

[VP Baltar]

Here is my list:

Town:
Concission
crypto
Fate
LuckayLuck
Vigilante Ventriloquist

People who need to die:
AlmasterGM
zoraster
Jarti
RedCoyote

I am liking how limited that scum list is. Even if SD flips town, I am quite confident the entire scum team is contained in that list. Now that Stars Aligned is finished. I will probably give a bit more attention to this game. Zoraster is definitely high on my list to go, so I am fine with that if I have nothing stronger to go on after some reading.

[VP Baltar]

Hey crypto, given your general lack of presence since day 1...I'd like you to actually explain your zoraster vote. Thanks.

[VP Baltar]

And I'm the one that has no idea what's going on.

crypto coasting off of the early town read everyone had on him; fate backing off his rc wagon to buddy crypto; luck finally going against his bad voteplay; sd being awful town or quiet scum; vpb showing willingness to question crypto but not fate; rc omgus; zoraster useless/active lurking; conci/agm looking townie

and town actually letting scum draw out a day 3 that is an extension of day 2 when the game has already been buried in too much discussion <---which is why you have no idea what's going on vivi

VOTE: zoraster end the day already

This is a stupid ass post and likely bus.

[VP Baltar]

ie, I want to talk more and hear from crypto...so suck it up sally.

[VP Baltar]

lol, wtf is AGM talking about. THAT is some funny scum spazzing. If that was really the plan, wouldn't I have just voted zoraster and not asked to hear from crypto etc. haha, you so crazy scum.

[VP Baltar]

To the QT Fate! I have some lulz about conspiracy on AGM to tellz you.

[VP Baltar]

tee hee

[VP Baltar]

lol, nobody counterclaim please.

Why would you claim your actual role and not VT, zor?

[VP Baltar]

Seems to kind of counteract the entire point of the role, don't you think?

p.edit - oh really, how so? What is the situation that merits you making your role useless?

[VP Baltar]

So you're saying you decided it was better to throw away any chance of having a confirmed townie because the odds of you getting roleblocked were high. Small chance of success > no chance of success.

[VP Baltar]

sure, let's get a CC then.

[VP Baltar]

yo, crypto, still want you to explain your zoraster vote please.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: VP Baltar

Wow. Do I even need to explain this one?

Yes, most likely.

[VP Baltar]

lol, you should try to read the thread before da postings VV. But funny, 10/10 would read again.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: VV

[VP Baltar]

also, crypto, you need to do better than that at this point. 56 pages in, intuition doesn't cut it. so, be cute all you'd like, but if that's you're best explanation it's not good enough.

Fate, you should vote VV cause he's da scumz can't read da thread.

p.edit - so that fucking SD is even alive, but whatevs.

[VP Baltar]

lmao - just realized you fucking hammered SD yesterday VV...fake scumhunting much?

VV-RedCoyote-Jarti scumteam ftl

[VP Baltar]

I'm debating that. However, the longer he takes to post his post-lynch wrap up, the more I am going to think that's the case.

(that Shadow Dancer is scum)

So you're seriously considering that Shadow Dancer is scum.

You see zoraster's claim at 11:09:16am EST. You're still talking to him

and waiting for a counter-claim

at 11:34:42am. You spent 25 minutes arguing about "lol y wud u claim if u wer actually redeemed soul?" and then

intended to leave him at L-1 with someone you're seriously considering as scum having a chance to hammer

with no downside to him if he is.

Bolded implying someone you just hammered yesterday is still alive and can vote in this game. Yerp.

[VP Baltar]

This should be a good scum waffle. Go.

[VP Baltar]

wait, the lynched can actually vote?

meh.

anyhow...zoraster point stands

[VP Baltar]

yeah, totally didn't see you going to get that one.

Also, I was wrong before: VV-AGM-RedCoyote ftl

[VP Baltar]

Nah, ever since Ythill died as tracker I haven't given two shits about the setup because it's basically irrelevant. I honestly didn't think the guillotined person could vote. I'm only here to look for scummy behavior. PRs became p. useless without the tracker imo.

Stand by what I said.

[VP Baltar]

Never said on-guillontine person couldn't post. Forgot they could vote as well. For some reason, I was thinking that guillotine was more like a treestump than anything.

Regardless, yes VV was not reading the thread and was looking for cheapshots, aka accuse VPB of voting zoraster so SD could hammer when no such thing happened. So, yeah, guess we both messed up but VV is much more significant imo.

Arguing with Zoraster when he claims is very fucking valid. You just buy every claim that ever happens in your mafia games unless there is a CC? If yes, then you should play better. I have no problem arguing with a town-PR to see if they're really telling the truth. Hardly filler or dragging anything.

I actually think that SD not quick hammering Zoraster is a point in his favor for being town at this point. Maybe we should lynch today under the assumption that SD is town. Well, actually, I need to check the time stamps on his post and see if he was on MS at that time posting in other games. If he was, then that's a very strong indicator that he's town.

[VP Baltar]

This game. You're seriously suggesting that I shouldn't be analyzing the game state because that is scummy zoraster? Or that I should not have opinions on things that are happening because I am involved in them?

HUGE FUCKING HINT: I was never voting you zoraster, therefore I could not unvote and save you from L-1. This is why VV is scummy for saying that. My god. I'm going to stop posting until you guys get up to date. This is like dealing with a game full of noobs at this point and you guys very much are not.

[VP Baltar]

I know where I placed VV, but I am more than willing to change my reads at the drop of a hat if I see something that sticks out. I don't think town would be quick to make a bad argument based on a factual error like VV did. Then again, we have PR zoraster doing the same thing after I explained it, so idk. This game is seriously making me pissed because everybody and their brother is so apathetic about the game state.

Town apathy is a terrible thing and pretty much every game I've ever played that has gone this way, I've lost. I know I'm not playing at my best either, so I guess I can't bitch too much, but I do feel like I've been trying to point out relevant things all game (such as wagons that repeatedly stall at L-1) and almost no one is listening to me.

[VP Baltar]

If SD flips scum, lynch ViVi. If town, AGM/RC.

Agree with this completely.

I feel like the third is such an enigma, but ah well. I want to start steamrolling the scum here and then we will have a better idea where we are at.

[VP Baltar]

I don't even understand how the content of that post led to a vote actually RC. I'd like your bullet points of why I'm scum please.

I find it pretty amusing the scummiest folks want to try to pile on over forgetting the guilliotened person could vote...as if that makes any sense from a scum motivation stand point. If your case is more than that RC, I'd love to hear it.

[VP Baltar]

@Fate - I kind of want to, but with SD's continued thread dodging I'm starting to think he was scum. I don't know what RC's history of bussing is, but unless he has a strong one of it he's probably town if SD is town. That being said, I find his entire case of how I am scum masterminding this game entirely laughable and horribly forced in pretty much every point he's making, so....


@RC - Why is it that "either fate or

need to go"? False dilemma much? What happens if one of us flips town? You think the other needs to go then? Fate and I are both obvious fucking town for the realz. Fate has been his usual town self ever since late D1 when he got a kick in the pants and I've been the most consistently present player in this game. I find it quite silly you don't have a town read on at least one of us, if not both.

@crypto - I don't recall a game off of the top of my head really, but my general stance is that its ok to talk about but not always useful. There are sometimes when it is worthwhile to talk about and may reveal likely motivations for the scum. I don't think it's a great reason alone to lynch someone over though. Even if you can see a likely motivation for NKs, there is still the possibility things occur by coincidence so you have to check yourself carefully.

[VP Baltar]

I see it brosef. That's why I asked him about it. I'm just trying to figure out why he would buss SD if he's scum. Now...if SD is town I can 100% say RC-AGM are scum. Damn these delayed flips.

[VP Baltar]

Plausible I suppose. I do think RC's cases are pretty ridiculously contrived...but I don't have much experience with him as a player so I don't know how he acts normally. It could be what you're saying. I am definitely having a hard time believing he thinks there is undoubtedly scum between us. idk.

[VP Baltar]

Congrats zoraster!

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote

call it insurance incase AGM really is your buddy.

[VP Baltar]

wait wait wait...I was giving you the benefit of the doubt earlier RC. While I thought it was bad logic, at least if you thought one of Fate and I were town there would have been some town motivation to your actions (however stupid those were). The fact that you're calling us both scum really makes laugh at how bad of a scum game you're playing here though. you wouldn't catch me buddying someone that hard and you most certainly wouldn't see Fate doing it. His scum game isn't subtle...he busses the crap out of his buddies pretty much every time he's scum. Very happy with my vote and I won't be moving it.

[VP Baltar]

See, Fate, your problem is that you spend too much time trying to convince people who are either scum or completely blind to see the light.

SD is certainly scum with the way he doesn't want to dish information now. Seems like a weird situation for RC to just hardcore bus in. But on the other hand, RC has yet to do anything town, so....

...processing where my final vote today should be. My guess is I'll get something up by this weekend.

[VP Baltar]

Just assign all their votes to Fate and I

We can win this shiz in a day.