Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[LuckayLuck]

Hello everyone. Glad we're starting with a bang, that's the way to do it. Rile people up, get people passionate!
Did some quick research on Fate's style, that seems to be his modus operandi. Good man.

Scum love to blend in and look like they're just a jolly old townsman. Nothing like doing what two other people already have done to seem like part of the in crowd.

By the way, there's a side benefit in that if Antitown is scum, then those who have posted no_u.jpg are probably not.

Vote: Antitown

[LuckayLuck]

Vote: LuckayLuck

When was the last time you played on MS? Your join date is old, but I don't recall seeing you around much.

I don't remember. It has been a while. Before the forum conversion, of which I don't know when happened.
I'll just throw out "years"

[LuckayLuck]

@LuckayLuck

, why don't you think Antitown is just joking around for the sake of joking around?

Could be. However, it is a joke that

two other people have done

, and that is what I find key - a sort of "blend in with the crowd" type of post. We all know what type of role likes to blend in.

[LuckayLuck]

Fate is scum.

Discuss.

At the time that you posted this, I had independently already said to myself:

"I think Fate is the most townie person here."

Again, this is independent of that I had you tinted as mafia - no bias there.

So, why do you think Fate is scum?

[LuckayLuck]

by the way, is there a way to view more than 20 posts a page?

[LuckayLuck]

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

Am I getting too close to your scumbuddy, Antitown?

[LuckayLuck]

In addressing more dirt against Antitown:

Explain, I don't get what you're saying.

Pity.

Ythill is town.

/discussion

Fate is scum.

Discuss.

Copycat...

How is that garbage?

Hot air.

Emphasis on we. The same could be said about you, no?

"no, you!" - more fluff.

I won't provide this free service to you every time, dude.

I am lost.

Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim then. It's kind of hard without justice in my hands.

"Teach me how to not provoke suspicion"

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way.

And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

A Tangent:

Could be. However, it is a joke that two other people have done, and that is what I find key - a sort of "blend in with the crowd" type of post. We all know what type of role likes to blend in.

Why put in the last sentence? I think he makes his point fairly clear in the first two, so the last bit is just rhetoric. It's an unnecessary explanation with the subtext of "lookame, I'm town!"

'Rhetoric' is such a negative connotation. I will phrase my posts in such a way that I believe conveys the point the best and most effectively, and I will try to be as succinct as possible. Could I say, instead of, "we all know what role plays this type of game" say "and thus, he is scum-ish"? Sure, but I prefer to get people thinking as well. By making me say "And we know what role does this..." I actually get people to think about their past experience and just think a little harder on that. It's subtle. Hell, it's even a little manipulative. But manipulation shouldn't have a negative connotation either when I'm trying to manipulate people into

thinking about what scum do

- that's all.

Damn ninja's.

@SD:

Anti is likely town. Please try to pay attention.

Why?

I am so fed up with easy target arguments. DOES IT EVER OCCUR TO ANYONE THAT EASY TARGETS MAY BE EASY TARGETS BECAUSE THEY SUCK AT PLAYING SCUM.

Hear hear!

[LuckayLuck]

Hi there. I was busy. Then I skimmed. Have to leave for work in a little while but will be back in about 10.5 hours to take another look @ this thread.

1. Some initial thoughts about the setup...
   
   
2. The vig should shoot the first person we put on guillotine. Since we cannot no-lynch, it is important to get that kill through so that we have an odd number of players. Best chance to do that is to shoot while the scum have the largest number of potential RB targets. Also, early information FTW.
   
3. We will probably want the vig and the redeemed soul to claim early. Not today, obv, but maybe tomorrow. If either gets CCed, we've gained a coinflip. If neither do, we have the beginnings of a sweet little voting bloc and will force the scum to kill them off, thus protecting our tracker.
   
4. We might consider requiring the person on guillotine to take on a leadership role in selecting the next lynch. Thus we will seed the thread with information to be exploited after the inevitable cardflip.

Discuss.

I've had some time to think about this stuff, and seeing a general agreement with this post makes me speak up.
I disagree with point two.

Why would we want the vig and redeemed soul to claim tomorrow? They are clear players. You argue

"force the scum to kill them off"

but I argue

"give scum gifts in being able to kill the only players who are clear"

. If these clear players are still alive later in the game, we can process-of-elimination the scum a little easier.

I argue we want the vig, redeemed soul, and tracker to claim at one day before must lynch.

(or, if they're about to get lynched)

I agree with guillotine person taking a leadership role in selecting the next lynch. It does give information, possibly enough information to not necessitate impatiently shooting them.

[LuckayLuck]

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

why am I scum?

The scumz are: VPB + Luck + I'm guessing some lurker. Since they have the same number of votes on them...

VOTE: VP Baltar

SD is slightly more scum than town so far but it seems such things are to be expected.

Crypto is the towniest town who ever towned. Fate's not far behind him but needs to drink less caffeine. People who think either of them are scummy should be slapped. Other likely town include Anti, Concis, and Sim.

Everyone else is meh. And I'm really glad UK isn't in this game; can you imagine how annoying she'd be on guillotine?

Ythill, you've said a lot here but you haven't explained enough. That's a lot to throw around without explanation.
Like someone has questioned, I don't see the scumminess in VPB. If you'd be so kind to make a point against him? You also have lumped me in there without any points as well.

I happen to agree on both crypto and fate being town. You've added likely town as anti, concis, and sim as town and that's a lot of reads early but again no explanations.

I'm finding the tone in some of LL's posts to be weird:

Could be. However, it is a joke that two other people have done, and that is what I find key - a sort of "blend in with the crowd" type of post. We all know what type of role likes to blend in.

Why put in the last sentence? I think he makes his point fairly clear in the first two, so the last bit is just rhetoric. It's an unnecessary explanation with the subtext of "lookame, I'm town!"

On this point: the subtext is "lookatAntitown, he's scum!", not "lookatme, I'm town!"

[LuckayLuck]

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way.

And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

Sorry, but since you reference me here I have to insist on this:
The "scumclaim" part is obviously utter bullshit...
And I hope your town play is also methodical in some way.
What is scummy about Anti is that he seems rather focussed on what would keep him out of the line of fire instead of actually making a case.

did I word this poorly? You might have mis-attributed my attack on antitown to you. To reiterate:

I agree with you, Shadow Dancer, on your points on Antitown, precisely because he seems especially carefully focused and methodical at trying to keep himself out of the line of fire. Keep up the good work, Shadow Dancer.

[LuckayLuck]

@Lucky: Keep in mind that the scum team is pretty strong, having a cop and an RB, thus delaying PR claims/uses on town side will definitely have its drawbacks.

what is the drawback in having scum kill the town who we didn't know is the soul-redeemed villager vs. having scum kill the town who we do know is the soul-redeemed villager?

[LuckayLuck]

I argue we want the vig, redeemed soul, and tracker to claim at one day before must lynch.

Why? So one of your teammates can CC to force a coinflip @ LYLO?

Thing is, other than being semi-confirmed, both of those roles are entirely useless. It could be argued that the vig is detrimental to us in the late game because he can put us in a situation where all of the townies

must

vote together to lynch scum. Meanwhile, having the tracker alive in LYLO gives us at least as much info as the other roles combined, with the potential of much more info (if we lynch scum or the tracker targets them before that point).

Noting here that a town-aligned player with your views should be accusing me of role fishing at this point. Why haven't you?

That's a good observation, I should accuse you of role fishing if I think you're mafia. I don't know whether or not you're mafia at the moment, so I don't go that far; I just say "I think this is a bad plan."

You're exactly right. The roles are entirely useless other than being semi-confirmed.

I like having semi-confirmed just before we go into must lynch, because then we have the most possible "confirmed" townies before we have to make do-or-die decisions.

Isn't this just a difference in philosophy? If you think the redeemed soul and the vigilante shouldn't claim on day one right now, then you shouldn't have much against having the redeemed soul and vigilante claim one day before must lynch. Note that I specifically said one day before must lynch as opposed to must lynch because then, as some have feared, counter claiming can occur. But if a mafia wants to counter claim a day before must lynch? That's great. Let them.

My stance on the roles: they're all quite worthless, but they are, at the very least, semi-confirmed. I would like these semi-confirmed players to be alive, as opposed to dead, which is why I encourage claiming as late as possible (though not as late as must lynch - just the day before). If you agree that they shouldn't claim on day one, then surely my stance makes sense.

[LuckayLuck]

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

Am I getting too close to your scumbuddy, Antitown?

Why avoid the question Jarti, and why reiterate your vote on me again with such ferocity?

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

~``tick tock tick tock lick luck and clean his clock``~

Your actions truly make me believe that I am on the round track and that you're just trying to 'drive momentum' on my lynch to steer a lynch away from your buddy Antitown.

I would also like to point out Jarti's "fake confidence" - on an early half of day one, Jarti is already saying: "ha-hah! As long as we lynch 2 scum and put the 3rd one on the guillotine, the game ends!" Yes, it can be a legitimate question and I can even see some strategy implications of such a question; however, to put it in the same post as "it's easy mode" makes my rendition of Jarti's statement seem correct.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote. Vote: LuckayLuck.

GG.

His entrance and early game here feel different than in OR&C.

I agree, but I don't think it's necessarily a matter of alignment.

In other news, Jarti is scummy as hell.

'Scum partnerships' shouldn't come on too strongly on day one, so I can understand how you would vote me AND think jarti is scummy despite jarti going after me so strongly (and me going after him, too)

I'm just pointing out though, that if you think Jarti is scummy as hell, that I would hope it gives you pause on voting me. (I don't even know your reasoning for voting me. GG?)

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote. Vote: Antitown.

I'm still leery of Percy but then I'm leery of about 2492 players right now.

I am so fed up with easy target arguments. DOES IT EVER OCCUR TO ANYONE THAT EASY TARGETS MAY BE EASY TARGETS BECAUSE THEY SUCK AT PLAYING SCUM.

I mean seriously crypto, your vote on me makes no sense considering we seem to be completely aligned. Also annoys me since I think you're a townie.

There's so much buddying in this game I might be getting sick. I have a few town reads but at the moment I can't be bothered to chop through the bullshit and dig up something that I can twist into looking meaningful.

And I'm aware of the irony here.

[LuckayLuck]

My stance on the roles: they're all quite worthless, but they are, at the very least, semi-confirmed. I would like these semi-confirmed players to be alive, as opposed to dead, which is why I encourage claiming as late as possible (though not as late as must lynch - just the day before).

Meh. It seems we are arguing the same thing. When I wrote that list of strats, I mistakenly thought of "three available" mislynches as meaning that the third lynch is LYLO, but it means that the 4th lynch is. So, yeah... as early as D3. However, earlier claims do protect the tracker, who is far more valuable, and have the potential to flesh out a bloc.

@Fate:

Luck and VPB are scum. Anti is probably not. Deal with it.

Earlier claims don't protect the tracker. Earlier claims, if you think the scum want to target the tracker, mean that they have a smaller pool to work from.

Your "luck and vpb are scum" definitive statement doesn't cut it by the way. What do you have against me?

[LuckayLuck]

LL still tries to use a conversational tone to ingratiate himself with the town, and it still comes off as embarrassingly fake.

Oh, my feelings, Simenon. You think I'm fake. Alas!

Granted, you have no data on past games with me so if you happen to find a 'conversational tone' as scummy from your experience, then there's nothing I can do to turn you there so I won't argue for it.

I'll just have to look town-ish, to you, by presenting arguments on why people are scum and on why people are townie then. Fighting the good fight, playing the good game and all.

in before someone accuses me of someone twisting my words of "I'll just have to look town-ish" as mafia-like for the two reasons of saying "hah! luckay just admitted that he wants to look town-ish! obvious scum!" and "how are you assuming simenon is town? aha, you must be mafia!" and finally the bonus reason of "wow, luckay sure cares about how he looks, he must be mafia!"

I bet I look fake for saying Alas!

[LuckayLuck]

so our initial lynches are much more rewarding this game then normal games then

fyi, nothing to bank on [but not something to forget] once we lynch 2 scum correctly; any future mislynches become pseudo-reedemed souls;
most extreme example is 2 correct lynches & then we have 3 mislynches; everytime we threw someone on the guillotine & the game didn't end we'd know the person was clear since if they were the final mafia member the game would end & thus we could trust them since we don't have to play out a 3rd scum lynch

moving on I didn't like alamaster because he kept his rvs down & nudged the antitown wagon while it was hot calling him scummy but no sense of urgency to pressure someone who he thought was scummy; he called out some other scum reads a post earlier before that too but no vote

luck's 'good man' in his first post is generally the type of buddybuddy language that's been buggin me since the beginning

but the 'you must be the scumbuddy of who i'm attacking to vote me' is too much lol

zoraster's disconnect in who is scum is troubling too willing to forgive in some of his list & too unwilling in other parts I wouldn't expect could possibly be just bad judgement or scum being selective will have to watch the guy

this is the first post which I like from you, my good man!

satirical, but truthful!

I especially like how the previous question you had of 'does game end if two mafia are lynched and one is on the guillotine' was explained here - you've made the realization that you can trust he who is on the guillotine from then on out. A good realization.

My suspicion of you has faded greatly, my good man.

[LuckayLuck]

FFS, can we lynch Luck yet?

@Fate:

Remember your "welp" after Jarti touted his own work ethic (isos on page 5)? Look back at Luck's first post. It's welp-worthy and he's only gone downhill since then.

Really?

Hello everyone. Glad we're starting with a bang, that's the way to do it. Rile people up, get people passionate!
Did some quick research on Fate's style, that seems to be his modus operandi. Good man.

Scum love to blend in and look like they're just a jolly old townsman. Nothing like doing what two other people already have done to seem like part of the in crowd.

By the way, there's a side benefit in that if Antitown is scum, then those who have posted no_u.jpg are probably not.

Vote: Antitown

I still stand strong on my stance on this post. It is a reason for why I am voting Antitown and desire to see him lynched.
It used to be the only reason when I first made the post, but further supporting evidence of Antitown's guilt has been spouted from his own mouth.

[LuckayLuck]

Oh, my feelings, Simenon. You think I'm fake. Alas!

Granted, you have no data on past games with me so if you happen to find a 'conversational tone' as scummy from your experience, then there's nothing I can do to turn you there so I won't argue for it.

Can you give me some specific examples of what you are thinking about from past games that matches your tone here?

No, I haven't got any games recorded here since the board reset so I have no supporting evidence.

I'll give you and everyone else the story behind my undertitle though (the one under my name on the left side). "You're a townie." That is because a while ago, my style consisted very strongly of finding townies and calling them out as so - a gameplay style that focused much more on finding townies instead of mafia, and then bouncing ideas off of said townies

(in a 'conversational tone')

to find the mafia. I would generally be a player who bridged connections and trust between players who I believed were townies to get them to direct votes against mafia. A very 'voting bloc coordinator' sort of player.

You haven't seen much of that yet because I have yet to gain the trust necessary to form such a bloc, though I daresay the votes on Antitown are all from people I mainly 'trust' at the moment (Fate & Shadow Dancer). No, that isn't solely because they're voting Antitown though that is a part of it - I like their tone and presentation of arguments as well.

I like crypto as town too, he's voting me, but I have some hope he'll see the light - as well, I like Jarti after his last post.

LuckayLuck's "You're a Townie!" List

LuckayLuck
Fate
Shadow Dancer
Crypto

LuckayLuck's "Maybe You're a Townie!" List

Jarti
Percy
VP Baltar

LuckayLuck's "You're not a Townie!" list

Antitown



I am aware that I have listed 7/14 of the players as townies (townie-like). My reads do change, so have no fear in me blindly trusting these folks, though I do hold a fair amount of trust in them at this moment in time. I do indeed have a townie bias as my undertitle suggests.

[LuckayLuck]

Luckay feels really scummy but maybe he just has a filthy personality.

I'm a pretty nice guy.
You can expect me to fight my lynch as I always play to win for my team - role neutral statement. I'll give arguments against lynching me if I feel the person is approaching me with a reason that I feel is faulty. You can expect me to keep calm even if I seem in danger of being lynched, and that I'll give final reads to the best of my ability no matter what position I'm in.

Hell, in this game, if I'm lynched day one, I'll play as hard as I would if I were alive (perhaps even harder) on day two. Not that I hope I get lynched on day one.

[LuckayLuck]

Off of the shadiness of the players voting VPBaltar as well as how he acts under pressure, I upgrade my opinion of VPBaltar to "He's a townie."

I'd like to mention Antitown stood quiet when the only alternative to his wagon was me

(it would look mafia-ish for him to "revenge-vote" me and put me as the lead wagon, right? So, instead, he jumps on the VPBaltar wagon when it looks like it can take off)

. By far, I think an Antitown lynch is the best lynch.

[LuckayLuck]

Was post 268 in reference to anything at all?

Purely to the post I quoted.

I actually responded to that post before I read further and saw that someone had posted a "I wonder what LuckayLuck looks like under lynch pressure." Funny coincidence.

[LuckayLuck]

WHAT THE FUCK IS ALL THESE PEOPLE SAYING THEY LIKE JARTI'S LAST POST?

IT WAS OF NOTHING AT ALL BUT LETTERS.

I want to respond directly to Fate because I feel like it is important for Fate and I to be on the same page here. Why? Because Fate's my strongest town read.

In alternative places to play mafia, I would say "masons, Fate?" which would mean "yo dawg, I think you're townie and I hope you think I'm townie too so we can just collaborate in the thread even though we're not 100% sure each other are townies, we're sure enough to do so"



So why do I like Jarti's last post? I already said, but I'll elaborate. It takes some setup - it's not one post in a vacuum, but rather, a string of two posts.

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

~``tick tock tick tock lick luck and clean his clock``~

so our initial lynches are much more rewarding this game then normal games then

fyi, nothing to bank on [but not something to forget] once we lynch 2 scum correctly; any future mislynches become pseudo-reedemed souls;
most extreme example is 2 correct lynches & then we have 3 mislynches; everytime we threw someone on the guillotine & the game didn't end we'd know the person was clear since if they were the final mafia member the game would end & thus we could trust them since we don't have to play out a 3rd scum lynch

moving on I didn't like alamaster because he kept his rvs down & nudged the antitown wagon while it was hot calling him scummy but no sense of urgency to pressure someone who he thought was scummy; he called out some other scum reads a post earlier before that too but no vote

luck's 'good man' in his first post is generally the type of buddybuddy language that's been buggin me since the beginning

but the 'you must be the scumbuddy of who i'm attacking to vote me' is too much lol

zoraster's disconnect in who is scum is troubling too willing to forgive in some of his list & too unwilling in other parts I wouldn't expect could possibly be just bad judgement or scum being selective will have to watch the guy

this is the first post which I like from you, my good man!

satirical, but truthful!

I especially like how the previous question you had of 'does game end if two mafia are lynched and one is on the guillotine' was explained here - you've made the realization that you can trust he who is on the guillotine from then on out. A good realization.

My suspicion of you has faded greatly, my good man.

Like I said - it was originally a strange question. Some people (me included) thought that it was weird that Jarti would say "Hey, once two scum are lynched ... blah blah blah" because it's an extremely weird approach to the game.

His explanation for why he asked the question (he didn't even do it in a way that 'explained', he just did it in a matter of fact way...which furthers my belief that he's a townie) was just very good. I don't think a scum would think too much on 'what happens if two scum die and then a townie is put on the guillotine.' Even if they do, I like the

way

he presented his train of thought. It was done in a townie way.



And that is why I like Jarti's last post and why I have flipped Jarti from 'scum' to 'probably townie' pretty quick.

[LuckayLuck]

VP is

so

the lynch today. I'll hammer when needed.

Off of the shadiness of the players voting VPBaltar as well as how he acts under pressure, I upgrade my opinion of VPBaltar to "He's a townie."

I'd like to mention Antitown stood quiet when the only alternative to his wagon was me

(it would look mafia-ish for him to "revenge-vote" me and put me as the lead wagon, right? So, instead, he jumps on the VPBaltar wagon when it looks like it can take off)

. By far, I think an Antitown lynch is the best lynch.

I actually skimmed Fate's post a little here and did a little bit of a double take as I took that last sentence out of context. I now realize that I've actually pretty much echoed Fate exactly

(though I'll claim to have come to the conclusion independently)

. That is:

1) Antimage voting to lynch VP is all sorts of shady
2) VP terrible lynch
3) Antimage great lynch

[LuckayLuck]

@Fate:

It's not about what I want. It's just that saying definitively that Anti-scum = anything before we get an Anti-scum flip is putting the cart before the horse. FTR, I didn't mean to say that you doing it is scummy, just that it's unreliable.

Also, people who have posted without voting Red need to learn to listen to me.

Feel like I should weigh in re: RedCoyote vote.

It's not awful. It's even in the top 5 of lynches today.
But it's not the best lynch. Which is why I can't support it right now.

[LuckayLuck]

Don't you see? The antimage parking lot has a spot just for me.
I'm cool here.

[LuckayLuck]

WTF do you keep calling him Antimage? Has there been a BM alt reveal somewhere that I missed?

temporarily forgot antiscum's name and instead started calling him a name that I'm very familiar with

http://www.dotastrategy.com/hero-11-Mag ... iMage.html
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Antimage

[LuckayLuck]

Why can't he be scum wondering: "so derp when da last scum is lynched we lose not we wait a day rite? Ill ask this in thread"

He can be, but that's a pretty brilliant follow-up of "aha, so all people on the guillotine after two scum are dead are 100% town, we can use that."

[LuckayLuck]

Re: My Style.

This is a new group of players

(you guys are rugged veterans. I mean I'm new to you guys, and you're new to me.)

I feel the necessity to explain myself in greater detail about both my own 'origins and beliefs' as well as address 'what other players may think of a stranger making these remarks'

(noticed the italic parenthesis on my thought tangents?)

.

What you can't take away is that I have a reason - a stated reason for every one of my townie reads and scum attacks so far. I believe I've weighed in on all the important issues. While finding scum on tone is a legitimate tactic, if you don't have a history with me or you can't research it for whatever reason

(as you conveniently can't here)

, then the best methodology would be to poke or see holes in my arguments.

I appreciate RedCoyote for mentioning something to that effect about me, and I appreciate his analysis post.

(This is me stating that I don't like a RedCoyote lynch today.)

[LuckayLuck]

I also think you guys might make me cry if you call me fake again.

[LuckayLuck]

Kill the Batman.

Why put in the last sentence? I think he makes his point fairly clear in the first two, so the last bit is just rhetoric. It's an unnecessary explanation

See guys? Rhetoric can be good. Without such a strong statement by crypto, who knows how catchy it would have been?

But all that aside. Crypto makes good points. Previous to his post, I had already been thinking that my #2 suspect was AlmasterGM.
Not that I'm going to vote Almaster quite yet as #1 is still Antitown.

Maybe they're both mafia. Wouldn't that be awesome.

[LuckayLuck]

Luck is still getting scummier by the post.

If you're town, you're ridiculous for associating a different playstyle for massive scumminess. I think I might even be lost as to what you're associating with scumminess at this point. And I must also warn you that if you're town you're nearly at the point in time that I have to just accept you'll always be gunning after me and I can't really argue you away from it. That's a sad loss, but at least there would be other townies around to vote for the right people.

If you're mafia - well, I hope you are because your reads make no sense. You've got pretty townish people on your scumameter.

[LuckayLuck]

Hello everyone. Glad we're starting with a bang, that's the way to do it. Rile people up, get people passionate!
Did some quick research on Fate's style, that seems to be his modus operandi. Good man.

Scum love to blend in and look like they're just a jolly old townsman. Nothing like doing what two other people already have done to seem like part of the in crowd.

By the way, there's a side benefit in that if Antitown is scum, then those who have posted no_u.jpg are probably not.

Vote: Antitown

Vote: Antitown

because his posting of the "no you" meme made no sense in any context (other than "if I post this, they won't notice me")

the most persuasive reason to vote antitown so far is this, by the way:

I think its the cute scum game where they keep their RVS vote for "mysterious" reasons instead of awkwardly trying to come up with a reason to push a mislynch or bus.

But since he only has 39 gameposts I'm not sure whether he could be aware enough of the meta that elusiveness is town (albeit a very outdated meta)

Don't have time for larger post.
LL's wagon isn't going anywhere.

Unvote Vote Almaster

As I said before, he's flown under the radar. crypto's points are strong

D1 Lurkerscum lynches aren't very motivating.

What? Scum lynches always produce information.

@Sim: Best guess at a three-man scumteam please, or at least your top three suspects.

guessing scumteams seems unreasonable on day one
Top three:
LL
Almaster
Concession
you've moved up there, mostly for your compromise bullshit and your weird behavior over the RC wagon.

@Simenon

, I just looked at all the posts you've made so far. There are two things that bother me.


1) Very early (in the first 50 posts) you basically echoed me on my attack on Antitown. We both commented on his 'no u' meme. I would think that this same finding would get you to be like "Huh, LuckayLuck is thinking the same way as I am. That's good, right?"

2) Along with attacking Antitown on that previous note, you took one of your posts to agree with fate on a point of another thing you thought persuasive against Antitown. Why then, does your top three (or perhaps even top four) not include Antitown?

[LuckayLuck]

Weighing In on Current Events:


On the AlmasterGM lynch: I like the pressure, and I think a key of this game is on what he says in the near future. I think the majority of players on AlmasterGM are townie. I

could

hammer AlmasterGM if nothing comes up over the weekend (as he states he'll be posting things)

On the oddity of the relative lack of talk about Antitown: I think Antitown needs to step up his posting count. I've gauged the general crowd and a lynch on him could very easily happen. People need to be brave and vote for him (assuming AlmasterGM provides adequate posting).

I have a question I want to ask of two players as well about two players, but this will have to happen after Almaster / Antitown start posting.

[LuckayLuck]

I'm very happy with Almaster's post. I rolled my eyes a little when he seemed to lead off by calling just about everybody 'scum' and was considering attacking him for it, but then he really had a list at the end with a list of about 7 'scummy' players.

So, that's fine. Good to see Almaster stepping up. I believe his post will be a turning point (or will it be? I think it should be) in his wagon. It is my hope that the pressure now gets put on Antitown. I strongly applaud Almaster. He's fallen far off my #2 suspect

(and how he was my #2 suspect is a good point he brought up which I will address.)

I will address Almaster's points he makes against me, as I feel like they are valid if you just 'read the game as a whole' as opposed to be here for the ebb and flow of things. If nothing else, it allows me to re-iterate the points / revelations I've had throughout the game in a more coherent matter.

[LuckayLuck]

First though, let me get on a soapbox and defend my position on my 'proposed strategy.' I understand that I probably won't get it through, and this

shocks

me. It is nothing less than astounding that my proposal get turned away with such great ferocity (and in fact it being deemed 'utter stupidity').

I don't game mainly on mafiascum. I've played with different groups. Claiming when you are a confirmable role

as late as possible

is the standard. Why?

1) When you're a confirmable role (good example: the vigilante or the white hat in this game) you will never get lynched. If you're about to, you claim. So that isn't a valid argument that "we might lynch a confrimable role."

2) When we get to the later parts of the game, we might have one confirmable role who has coasted through. Lets say we're in a final 5 with 1 scum and 4 townies. Wouldn't it be better for the vigilante to suddenly come out then and be like: "Hey guys! I'm the vigilante. Hooray!" And then suddenly, from the perspective of a townie, instead of having 4 other people to look at, it becomes just 3 other people. The chances have just gone up from 25% to 33% if you were guessing randomly. If that someone happened to be your main suspect, then you're really well set then.

3) What if the scum counterclaims in that situation? In that final 5 situation with 1 scum, 3 townies, 1 vigilante. Then suddenly, the chances of getting the scum correct have gone from 25% to 50%. You choose one of two people. Actually, they go up to 100% because we would just lynch both claimants.


There are minor benefits which I will admit. The tracker will have less targets to look for. (by that logic, the vig/spirit should claim right now). There's a 'voting bloc' (also, by that logic, the vig/spirit should claim right now).




The short and sweet of it is this: 'CONFIRMED' townies are most valuable at the end game. Why would we give up our advantage of 'CONFIRMED' townies early by revealing them now and have them killed off? Why fear counterclaims when counterclaims drastically reduce the pool of where the mafia is? (I personally would want the mafia to claim spirit for a 50-50 shot then claim townie for a less than 50-50 shot)

[LuckayLuck]

Lucky, with all due respect, shut up.

We're going with Ythill's plan.

[LuckayLuck]

"Responding" to AlmasterGM

That's a good observation, I should accuse you of role fishing if I think you're mafia. I don't know whether or not you're mafia at the moment, so I don't go that far; I just say "I think this is a bad plan."

I don't like this post at all for two reasons.
1) In an open setup like this one, there is no "plus" to rolefishing (e.g., you can't be like, "oh I was the Doctor trying to find the cop." Rolefishing is rolefishing - it's bad. So LL is basically saying, "I'm not calling you scum for being scummy, but I will point out the tell." It's a hedge of massive proportions.
2) It's LL's plan that is bad (and could have scum motivations), not Ythill's, so why LL is saying Ythill has a bad plan is totally beyond me.

So the post I made above explains why I think Ythill has a bad plan.
Apparently I'm the crazy minority opinion here. Whatever. Fine.

'Scum partnerships' shouldn't come on too strongly on day one, so I can understand how you would vote me AND think jarti is scummy despite jarti going after me so strongly (and me going after him, too)

I'm just pointing out though, that if you think Jarti is scummy as hell, that I would hope it gives you pause on voting me. (I don't even know your reasoning for voting me. GG?)

Isn't this post a giant contradiction? It says, "You shouldn't feel bad about voting for me … but wait, you should."

I admit it. It's wishy washy language by me. Let me put it another way: "This is a weak reason why you should not vote me."

LuckayLuck's "You're a Townie!" List
LuckayLuck
Fate
Shadow Dancer
Crypto


LuckayLuck's "Maybe You're a Townie!" List
Jarti
Percy
VP Baltar

LuckayLuck's "You're not a Townie!" list
Antitown

Where is the justification for hardly any of this list?

I especially don't like the "Maybe your a townie" on VPB. He's been a pretty prolific poster thus far. You should have something of a read on him.

I'll post justification in a massive recap in the next post.

Are you serious on saying you don't like the "Maybe you're a townie." Are you serious. You yourself have a section of "Maybe you're scum."

SCUMMY (But not scum enough to go into the SCUM portion)
zoraster
Simenon

That's what I mean. "Maybe you're a townie" = "TOWNISH (But not town enough to go into the TOWN portion) if you want further explanation.

His explanation for why he asked the question (he didn't even do it in a way that 'explained', he just did it in a matter of fact way...which furthers my belief that he's a townie) was just very good. I don't think a scum would think too much on 'what happens if two scum die and then a townie is put on the guillotine.' Even if they do, I like the way he presented his train of thought. It was done in a townie way.

You know, now that this is mentioned … I think the

exact opposite.

It's day 1. Town just wants to lynch scum. Why would they be thinking about this obscure endgame? Isn't it SCUM who would be busy plotting whether or not they can quicklynch in the endgame and get away with it?

Yes, but I argue it is TOWN who comes to the conclusion and presents: "So therefore, everyone on the guillotine after two scum have been lynched is a villager."

But I see your point on this too. Especially with your next little quote...

wagons rock VOTE: red coyote

luck this wagon comes complete with heated seats, cool drinks, and if you stay on until we get some worthwhile information from it ythill will serenade you even

(emphasis mine)

simenon calling for a bigger wagon after it dissolves some won't work you have to full circle back to it at that point~luckay still worthy of death though imo

anti you seem frustrated why

percury i never established that it was the reads I disagreed with; it was how he came to some reads not feeling matched up to some others mainly his thoughts on luck vs thoughts on sim & con

but really alamz is just so scum this game; we should compromise on him

Seriously, what the fuck is this.

I don't understand where people are getting the, "If Antitown is scum, VPB is town" argument from. Explain, pl0x?

Though it wasn't anything you were catching on, your quotation let me see just how much Jarti unexpectedly buddied up on me. This was done RIGHT AFTER I deemed Jarti a villager for the reasons above.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, and what I'm about to say has conspiracy theory written all over it, but I noticed after I defended Jarti, the votes on me went to 0. Maybe I'm wrong about Jarti.

Look again above at the bold, emphasis mine, and compare that to his earlier speaking:

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

~``tick tock tick tock lick luck and clean his clock``~

That's a big change.

Anyways, that was a tangent, but it was your quoting of Jarti that got me to look at that in particular.

Re: My Style.

This is a new group of players (you guys are rugged veterans. I mean I'm new to you guys, and you're new to me.) I feel the necessity to explain myself in greater detail about both my own 'origins and beliefs' as well as address 'what other players may think of a stranger making these remarks' (noticed the italic parenthesis on my thought tangents?).

What you can't take away is that I have a reason - a stated reason for every one of my townie reads and scum attacks so far. I believe I've weighed in on all the important issues. While finding scum on tone is a legitimate tactic, if you don't have a history with me or you can't research it for whatever reason (as you conveniently can't here), then the best methodology would be to poke or see holes in my arguments.

What is this post trying to accomplish, exactly? It's like, "You can't lynch me! I'm using LOGIC!"

A lot of people were commenting on the 'friendliness' of this game.
That's my style. I know I have a team out there. I will work with the team, I will buddy up with people I think are villagers. Some people may think that's mafia-ish. This is my standard. I just wanted to say that now.

And I happen to think that it is a mafia-ish quality to buddy up to players. So watch me wave around and work my magic: "What I'm doing might look mafia-esque but it's actually just my standard play! Oooh! Ahhh!"

But all that aside. Crypto makes good points. Previous to his post, I had already been thinking that my #2 suspect was AlmasterGM.

THIS TOO. LL hadn't mentioned me AT ALL before this, but suddenly I'm a #2 suspect? God, this wagon is so heavily scum propelled it's sickening.

Good remark. I do need to explain my reads. Coming next post.

On the AlmasterGM lynch: I like the pressure, and I think a key of this game is on what he says in the near future. I think the majority of players on AlmasterGM are townie. I could hammer AlmasterGM if nothing comes up over the weekend (as he states he'll be posting things)

Of course you would want to waffle on this point and redirect the blame to the rest of the "town;" it's because you're scum and you know I'd flip town.

This wasn't waffling. I deliberately said: "I will hammer you if you don't post something good." That's like the opposite of waffling.

[LuckayLuck]

LuckayLuck's Stance on the Players

- I will also use some text sizing in how important my opinion is on these players so you can skim /skip those I really do feel wishy washy on.

AlmasterGM:

Originally #2 on my scumlist because he was making a vote I thought was poor (on VPBaltar), completely ignored Antitown, and with not that much info + lurking, I was pretty much "alright, that's a fine lynch." Has changed my mind with a good post at coming back as well as the sheer indignation at getting so many votes:

Don't have time for larger post.
LL's wagon isn't going anywhere.
Unvote Vote Almaster
As I said before, he's flown under the radar. crypto's points are strong

Hello scum #3. Welcome to the wagon.

I'm disappointed at the next 3 people on the wagon, but at least they aren't being scummy as fuck about it.

He's made me believe he's the victim here with this tone, instead of him being "cornered". I think AlmasterGM could be townie. I will also point out that a wagon quickly formed on him, unlike Antitown, who conveniently comes next in the alphabet...

Antitown:

I think he is scum scum scum. My reasons are listed below with reminders of when I said them:

1) He tried to blend in. Early.

Scum love to blend in and look like they're just a jolly old townsman. Nothing like doing what two other people already have done to seem like part of the in crowd.

By the way, there's a side benefit in that if Antitown is scum, then those who have posted no_u.jpg are probably not.

Vote: Antitown

On a fun side-note, of the two people who posted no_u: Percy and crypto; Percy attacked Antitown so I tend to think Percy is town - and crypto seems town too.

2) Called Fate scum with no reasoning to back it up. Has had no reasoning to follow through.

Fate is scum.

Discuss.

At the time that you posted this, I had independently already said to myself:

"I think Fate is the most townie person here."

Again, this is independent of that I had you tinted as mafia - no bias there.

So, why do you think Fate is scum?

I'll explain in more depth eventually, but heres a hint: Fate's doing utterly nothing.

Saying Fate has done nothing was incorrect at that point in time.


3) Asked, in what I perceived in a guilty tone, of "how I should react to a scumclaim"

I am lost.

Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim then. It's kind of hard without justice in my hands.

"Teach me how to not provoke suspicion"

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way.

And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

And for those three reasons I think Antitown is scum and I encourage a landslide wagon on him. Actually, I will comment again on how landslide wagon occurred on AlimasterGM but specifically not on Antitown. Maybe because the scum felt okay to vote Alimaster, but not Antitown. And we all know what type of people the scum don't want to vote out.

Concission:

Unremarkable to me with only six posts none of which stir any reactions.

Crypto:

Seems town. His bold posts give me a townie vibe, for example the ones below. His voting of Antitown makes me feel warm and fuzzy about crypto.

Unvote. Vote: Antitown.

I'm still leery of Percy but then I'm leery of about 2492 players right now.

I am so fed up with easy target arguments. DOES IT EVER OCCUR TO ANYONE THAT EASY TARGETS MAY BE EASY TARGETS BECAUSE THEY SUCK AT PLAYING SCUM.

QUESTION MARK

Fate:

Don't want to spend too much time hailing his township, but to be brief: I agree with everything he's been doing and I consider him a mason at this point in time.

Jarti:

Mixed reactions. Reasons why I think he's scum:

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

Am I getting too close to your scumbuddy, Antitown?

Why avoid the question Jarti, and why reiterate your vote on me again with such ferocity?

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

~``tick tock tick tock lick luck and clean his clock``~

Your actions truly make me believe that I am on the round track and that you're just trying to 'drive momentum' on my lynch to steer a lynch away from your buddy Antitown.

I would also like to point out Jarti's "fake confidence" - on an early half of day one, Jarti is already saying: "ha-hah! As long as we lynch 2 scum and put the 3rd one on the guillotine, the game ends!" Yes, it can be a legitimate question and I can even see some strategy implications of such a question; however, to put it in the same post as "it's easy mode" makes my rendition of Jarti's statement seem correct.

wagons rock VOTE: red coyote

luck this wagon comes complete with heated seats, cool drinks, and if you stay on until we get some worthwhile information from it ythill will serenade you even

(emphasis mine)

simenon calling for a bigger wagon after it dissolves some won't work you have to full circle back to it at that point~luckay still worthy of death though imo

anti you seem frustrated why

percury i never established that it was the reads I disagreed with; it was how he came to some reads not feeling matched up to some others mainly his thoughts on luck vs thoughts on sim & con

but really alamz is just so scum this game; we should compromise on him

Seriously, what the fuck is this.

I don't understand where people are getting the, "If Antitown is scum, VPB is town" argument from. Explain, pl0x?

Though it wasn't anything you were catching on, your quotation let me see just how much Jarti unexpectedly buddied up on me. This was done RIGHT AFTER I deemed Jarti a villager for the reasons above.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, and what I'm about to say has conspiracy theory written all over it, but I noticed after I defended Jarti, the votes on me went to 0. Maybe I'm wrong about Jarti.

Look again above at the bold, emphasis mine, and compare that to his earlier speaking:

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

~``tick tock tick tock lick luck and clean his clock``~

That's a big change.

Anyways, that was a tangent, but it was your quoting of Jarti that got me to look at that in particular.

Reasons why I think he's townie:

So why do I like Jarti's last post? I already said, but I'll elaborate. It takes some setup - it's not one post in a vacuum, but rather, a string of two posts.

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

@mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

~``tick tock tick tock lick luck and clean his clock``~

so our initial lynches are much more rewarding this game then normal games then

fyi, nothing to bank on [but not something to forget] once we lynch 2 scum correctly; any future mislynches become pseudo-reedemed souls;
most extreme example is 2 correct lynches & then we have 3 mislynches; everytime we threw someone on the guillotine & the game didn't end we'd know the person was clear since if they were the final mafia member the game would end & thus we could trust them since we don't have to play out a 3rd scum lynch

moving on I didn't like alamaster because he kept his rvs down & nudged the antitown wagon while it was hot calling him scummy but no sense of urgency to pressure someone who he thought was scummy; he called out some other scum reads a post earlier before that too but no vote

luck's 'good man' in his first post is generally the type of buddybuddy language that's been buggin me since the beginning

but the 'you must be the scumbuddy of who i'm attacking to vote me' is too much lol

zoraster's disconnect in who is scum is troubling too willing to forgive in some of his list & too unwilling in other parts I wouldn't expect could possibly be just bad judgement or scum being selective will have to watch the guy

this is the first post which I like from you, my good man!

satirical, but truthful!

I especially like how the previous question you had of 'does game end if two mafia are lynched and one is on the guillotine' was explained here - you've made the realization that you can trust he who is on the guillotine from then on out. A good realization.

My suspicion of you has faded greatly, my good man.

Like I said - it was originally a strange question. Some people (me included) thought that it was weird that Jarti would say "Hey, once two scum are lynched ... blah blah blah" because it's an extremely weird approach to the game.

His explanation for why he asked the question (he didn't even do it in a way that 'explained', he just did it in a matter of fact way...which furthers my belief that he's a townie) was just very good. I don't think a scum would think too much on 'what happens if two scum die and then a townie is put on the guillotine.' Even if they do, I like the

way

he presented his train of thought. It was done in a townie way.



And that is why I like Jarti's last post and why I have flipped Jarti from 'scum' to 'probably townie' pretty quick.

I'm willing to admit wrongness on perhaps thinking Jarti was town incorrectly. Jarti is pretty scummy to me.

Percy:

Unremarkable. Originally had a minor read of him as town but I've discarded that as I actually mis-read him.

RedCoyote:

Overall, I like his posts, though nothing particular sticks out that I'd like to address.

Shadow Dancer:

Have been liking his posts, particularly the way he's been attacking Antitown. It's both the way he's attacking as well as who he's attacking that makes me think he's town.

Simenon:

Don't want to say "no read" because he's been fairly active and participated in all the major topics, but I will say that I don't know what to make of him. So I acknowledge his participation and his points, but I just don't know what to make of it yet.

VP Baltar:

I haven't seen any mafia-esque qualities to his play. I am surprised by the wagon that was formed on him. It was by shady characters, so I think VP Baltar is a townie. I liked the way he responded under pressure.

Ythill:

I like the way he has explained himself at all junctures and his activeness. I tend to think he's town. I can't seem to bond with this guy though because I so greatly disagree with his list. Blah blah blah, I'm on the top, yes, but so is VPB. He's got percy awfully town, I don't understand that one.

Scum

Luck (by a lot)
VPB
Shadow, Sim
AGM
Anti
Conc, Red
Jarti, Zor
Percy
Fate
crypto

Town

zoraster:

Approaching this game from a different angle, focusing on simenon and shadow dancer - two targets I don't understand much. Not sure what to think of zoraster at the moment.

[LuckayLuck]

Summary of how I stand:

Scum

Antitown (by a lot)
Jarti

Unknowns:

Simenon, Concission, RedCoyote, Zoraster, Percy
Ythill
Shadow Dancer
AlmasterGM
crypto
VPBaltar
Fate

Town

[LuckayLuck]

@Jarti:

how did you get from here:

okay I've

skimmed

selectively looked at the ISOs of anyone who stuck out

read now

and I see we haven't lynched

LuckayLuck

scum yet, let's fix that VOTE: LuckayLuck

Sweet, luck today, alamaster tomorrow and then it's easy mode imo.

luck's 'good man' in his first post is generally the type of buddybuddy language that's been buggin me since the beginning

but the 'you must be the scumbuddy of who i'm attacking to vote me' is too much lol

to offering me refreshments and music:

wagons rock VOTE: red coyote

luck this wagon comes complete with heated seats, cool drinks, and if you stay on until we get some worthwhile information from it ythill will serenade you even

seriously, these are your first four posts in the game.
how?

[LuckayLuck]

Also noting the following series of events: Luck is making posts of moderate length (check iso). AGM comes under pressure and then posts a WoT that gains him town cred. Luck then posts a similar attempt.

Your argument is weakened by me immediately posting a wall of text before I saw that AGM would get town cred. It clearly wasn't a "Aha! Everyone's calling AGM a townie now! I should do the same thing."

[LuckayLuck]

Ythill, you've made one of the best arguments against me that I've seen when I'm actually town.
That said, let me address your arguments against me, of which I consider to be of three main categories.

1) "I think LuckayLuck is scum for buddying up with players."

• #27: Already mentioned these: buddying to the aggressors, touting his own work ethic, chaining alignments way too early.
  
• #96: Ad populum. Plus, is Luck looking for roles rather than alignments?
  
• #171: Luck is sheeping some pretty weak points. Adds another ad populum appeal.
  
• #274: Excessive buddying.
  
• #323: A sheepy populist lean. Terribad.

There's not much I can say on this one. I've made the same argument for Jarti, which you've noticed. He was attacking me. Then, I stated "maybe Jarti's a townie." Then, Jarti decided perhaps he wanted to treat me to coffee instead.

In one sentence or less to explain though: I consider playing mafia with a respectful and friendly point of view to be an effective way of both getting your points across and understanding others more.

[*]#204-205: His tone demonstrates that he is reacting emotionally to the pressure but he does not show typical town reactions of questioning his attacker's alignment, accuracy, or intelligence.

That's a good one. I chuckled. Emotion is something I look for too in a townie. When someone's under pressure - that's when they display their true colors.

Thinking back quickly, I

have

(once?) questioned my attacker's alignment on voting me, and I have several times attempted to convince players voting me that they are inaccurate. I don't think it's respectful to say "You must be scum for attacking me...// You're so dumb for attacking me, you'll be revealed as a sham when I reveal as townie"...etc.

2) "I think LuckayLuck's beliefs on having the power roles not claim is scummy in a variety of manners."

[*]#172: Already mentioned this: cognitive dissonance in that a player with Luck's stated views should suspect me.

What's most interesting about this is his stance on claim-timing. It was specifically my tendency to look for a mutual town-read voting group that inspired the early-claim plan. Luck says he plays like I do, but he came to the opposite conclusion. My theory is that he really does play like that, that he understood all along the advantage that the town stands to gain, and that he made the poor choice of arguing a site myth (claims should always come late) in spite of his own admitted beliefs, supporting a stance that -considering those same beliefs- clearly indicates his alignment.

There's an easy explanation for this one. I would love to know who some 100% clear townies are earlier so I can follow their ideas more trustingly and form blocs. But

despite

that I think that it is more negative to have the roles reveal, it outweighs the benefits.

To oversimplify things in an example - it would be lovely if everyone knew who a cop was - you'd be able to bounce ideas off the player who had the most information in the game. Unfortunately, he would then die and that would be bad for the town. So too, is it to a much lesser extent, with the spirit and the vigilante.

As for not saying "You're Scum! You're role-fishing!" - I didn't say that precisely because it wasn't a clear cut strategy. Even though I still disagree with you on strategy, I don't think it's tooooo terrible.

3) "LuckayLuck is trying to not get lynched."

[*]#175+ (page 8): Luck's activity increases under mild pressure.
[*]#268: Indicated this by giving him an oscar: pressure has faded on Luck but he is still intent on gaining town cred, to the tune of posting a pro-self propaganda speech.
[*]#423: Slippery defenses vs. AGM. He strawmans the "maybe town" point to be about is choice of words when it is actually about his failure to get a read on a dynamic player (who is probably his scumbuddy, btw). Also treats the "you can't lynch me" question as being about his "friendly" playstyle when it is clearly about the fact that a particular post lacked townie motivation.
[*]#423-425: Already mentioned these: uncharacteristic WoT follows someone using a WoT to gain cred, plus cognitive dissonance in that his conclusions do not follow one of his major points.[/list]

As an aside... I've found it very entertaining reading Luck's pleas about his title and playstyle. He acts as if being interested in playing this as a team game sets him apart and should therefore grant him leeway as a misunderstood townie. Luck is obviously unaware of my meta as a bloc player.

Guilty as charged. I don't like getting lynched. I am aware that it is usually scum that fight harder on not getting lynched; are you perhaps treating me as a newcomer a bit much? Coming up with the idea of: "Why is LuckayLuck trying so hard to not get lynched as a townie? It's only scum that really lets down their team when they get lynched." That might be misrepresenting your beliefs or just setting them to an extreme, but it is my own belief that any player who gets lynched does their team a disservice. I agree with you that mafia try harder to not get lynched. I, however, am a player who simply tries not to get lynched.

Also, I don't like being thought of as scum because then my ideas aren't as readily accepted. As an example, I don't think I'm going to get lynched today. I have zero votes. I am aware that there are several players in the game who likely would not vote me. However, I'm still putting significant effort into making you, one player in a game, Ythill, not suspect me as much. Why? Because I am increasingly thinking that you are town.

It does come as a revelation to me that you're a bloc player. You too will understand that as a bloc player, not having suspicion on you is a necessity in order to...bloc together.

[LuckayLuck]

@YThill:

[LuckayLuck]

There's so much buddying in this game I might be getting sick.

@crypto:

[LuckayLuck]

VP Baltar: I haven't seen any mafia-esque qualities to his play.

I am surprised by the wagon that was formed on him. It was by shady characters,

so I think VP Baltar is a townie. I liked the way he responded under pressure.

The primary proponents of the VPB wagon were Ythill and Percy. I agreed with it; I know there were some others on it as well. here's what you have to say about them:

I think AlmasterGM could be townie.

Percy: Unremarkable. Originally had a minor read of him as town but I've discarded that as I actually mis-read him.

Ythill: I like the way he has explained himself at all junctures and his activeness. I tend to think he's town.

No where do you mention any of us as being "shady;" in fact, you have a town read on two of the three. Please explain this discrepancy.

Antitown was on it. Bam! Explained. I'll just quote a past post of mine on that.

Off of the shadiness of the players voting VPBaltar as well as how he acts under pressure, I upgrade my opinion of VPBaltar to "He's a townie."

I'd like to mention Antitown stood quiet when the only alternative to his wagon was me

(it would look mafia-ish for him to "revenge-vote" me and put me as the lead wagon, right? So, instead, he jumps on the VPBaltar wagon when it looks like it can take off)

. By far, I think an Antitown lynch is the best lynch.

I actually skimmed Fate's post a little here and did a little bit of a double take as I took that last sentence out of context. I now realize that I've actually pretty much echoed Fate exactly

(though I'll claim to have come to the conclusion independently)

. That is:

1) Antimage voting to lynch VP is all sorts of shady
2) VP terrible lynch
3) Antimage great lynch

Also, let me remind that

at the time

I said the wagon was shady, I considered AlmasterGM to be my #2 scum suspect. So There was not only #1 (Antitown) but also #2 scum suspects on VPBaltar. I think that's ample reasoning for being surprised by shady characters being on the wagon.

Don't too appreciate you taking my reads out of context in timing (as reads do change). If you researched the 'flow of the game' at that moment when I made the post, it would make complete sense.

[LuckayLuck]

Also, with regards to the GLaDOS replacement ... annoying, no offense to her. Totally disagree with the town read on LL and Jarti. Ancient meta seems like a bad reason to ignore otherwise scummy behavior.

How is saying annoying not ridiculously offensive?

I welcome Glados. She's off to an okay start, but I'm surprised at the different direction she's taken her reads in.
Not only does it stray from the path of what the majority of players think at the moment, but also the selection of characters she has reads on is unexpeted; missing some of our more prolific players.

[LuckayLuck]

Jarti

, what do you think of GLaDOS?

[LuckayLuck]

We are lynching Concission today barring something extraordinary. Saddle up, bichez.

I consider it important to get everyone's views on important events, this is one of them - so I will state now: I am opposed to lynching Concission

at this moment in time

.

I like the people voting Concission. I think most are townies. I get that Concission has at best been a lurker, and at worst had some scumminess. That's fine. I myself have not found anything particularly townie-ish about Concission.

Concission seems like a "compromise" lynch. It's a lynch everyone can get behind because I don't think anyone can actually defend Concission. That's why I would vote for him, at least...because it's "okay."

I am not okay with an okay lynch at the moment. Feel like we can do better.

[LuckayLuck]

Add Percy to town list.
This game is quickly becoming quite easy. Solved on day one. With reading Percy's points as well as the ongoing general attack on Concission, I've got a pretty solid "You're a Townie" list.

You're a Townie!

Fate
crypto
VPBaltar
AlmasterGM
Percy
Ythill

You Might Be a Townie!

Shadow Dancer
RedCoyote

???

Zoraster
Concission

You're the Mafia Team, quake in fear of my deductive capabilities

GLaDOS
Jarti
Simenon

[LuckayLuck]

You're the Mafia Team, quake in fear of my deductive capabilities

GLaDOS
Jarti
Simenon

Ok, I'm actually not good enough to peg the three. All I know is that GLaDOS and Jarti are two of the three.
Put Simenon in the ??? category.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote. Vote Jarti.

Maybe this is a more palatable target than GLaDOS, formerly known as Antitown.


This is a good wagon. Unless something exceptional happens, Jarti is the lynch today. Am I doing this correctly?

[LuckayLuck]

@LuckayLuck

, link me your latest game as town and your latest game as scum.

Okay. Off-site, since the data from this site is gone.

http://www.thecassandraproject.org/jere ... mes_played (fairly good compendium)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/searc ... d=17006571 (a variety)

Knock yourself out. Look at whichever game you want.
I didn't think anybody would actually be insane enough to want to research my past history to that extent so I didn't link these earlier, but if you want to - feel free.

[LuckayLuck]

looks like a lot happened; catching-up soon

I don't want to end the day until this happens.

[LuckayLuck]

@Concission on my stance about Concission: Post 496

I want to restate that it is very important that we don't end the day until Jarti posts. I've been biting at the bit to get at him.
There's a decent chance that Concission is town given my views. He might be scum. But given what I suspect at the moment...I don't want to lynch Concission until Jarti posts.

[LuckayLuck]

This day won't end without another wall of text from me.

[LuckayLuck]

A wall is necessary because the goal is to get people off of Concission onto another target(s), which I certainly wouldn't be able to do without supporting evidence.

[LuckayLuck]

I'd better make my case super convincing then, so I can avoid a 'mislynch' and actually get a mafia.

[LuckayLuck]

I'd better make my case concise, yet poignant, then.

[LuckayLuck]

Here's a barebones post to last you until after I've finished lab tonight.

I will kill you (in the lynching way) if your post isn't good
just saying

[LuckayLuck]

Thanks for your posts Jarti.

I am not only convinced that Jarti and GLaDOS are not only both scum, but I am certain enough that I am willing to stand up, take a stand, point at them, and say - ON DAY ONE - THEY ARE A SCUM TEAM. In fact, it's a realization that not only do they individually stand alone as scummy but they have specific interactions with each other that are scummy that I can say this.

FINGER OF SUSPICION: Jarti + GLaDOS

On a plus note, thanks to my slight patience in waiting for Jarti's posts, I'm extremely sure crypto and fate are both town as well. (even more sure than I was)


Obviously, an accusation of this magnitude needs an explanation. This explanation will come tomorrow. It will attempt to be concise, but a groundshattering revelation of this magnitude needs to be supported with evidence. I implore the town, of which many (Ythill, Alamaster) have their suspicions of me simply

take the argument for the value of its argument

.

I think it's strong, and I think that it is

because

I am me that I noticed this. It's a particular set of interactions in certain time frames that had to do with me which lead me to this realization.

So yes, case to be made tomorrow. I beg the town to lynch either Jarti or GLaDOS. Obviously, this won't happen until I post my evidence but consider this a preview.

[LuckayLuck]

Before someone says 'this is nothing new, you already had both of them on your scum list' Jarti's recent post cements my theory more of their partnership as well as makes me believe in the townie-ness of many players which further makes me realize Jarti and GLaDOS are both scum.

Cyclical reasoning this is not; I challenge players to read this game with the 'knowledge' that Jarti and Glados (formerly antitown) are scum and you will see that it makes sense. It makes so much sense.

[LuckayLuck]

Scumhunting: Part 1 of 3

Why GLaDOS (Antitown) is Scum

• We'll begin
  BEFORE
  the game begins (metagame). Antitown has one data point of a previous game on these forums in which he is a town. This is admittedly not a lot of data, BUT his style is seen to be drastically different. His posts in that other game include:
  opinions with evidence
  ,
  boldly stated proclamations,
  emotional challenges
  . In this game, he does none of the above.
  
  Onto THIS game now...
  
  
• Antitown tried to blend in early with
  no_u.jpg
  , parroting two players.
  
• Antitown called out, of all people, Fate - for
  doing nothing
  . I doubt a townie can come to this conclusion because Fate was quite active and stirring up the pot during the early game. This is a sort of lazy accusation that tends to come from scum.
  
• Antitown
  readily votes for VPBaltar
  with no good reasoning and pushes him to wagon #1 (alongside yours truly, LuckayLuck) - of note is that Antitown was wagon #2. I was voting for Antitown and I believe that Antitown believed that voting for me would have looked very awful, so he just pushed another candidate out in front.
  
• Responded to accusation of being scum with a '
  what should I do?
  ' It sounded defeatist, it didn't have the concerned 'oh crap, the town is wrong' tone to it.
  
• On Antitown's way out, he describes
  extremely convoluted reasoning
  on what he thought about Fate. I can't fathom that a townie who wasn't very active went this deep into paranoia (it isn't even real paranoia - it shows signs of mafia looking for power roles).
  
• GLaDOS joins the game with a
  very different perspective
  on players. This isn't necessarily bad, but the players she ignores (Fate, crypto) and the players she DOES list (zoraster, redcoyote, jarti) make for a very unusual list indeed.
  
• GlaDOS has completely ignored my bloodlust for lynching her, despite listing me as a fairly high town read. I believe that she would try to convince me of her innocence should she have actually been town.

This is damning evidence by itself and I call for a GLaDOS lynch. However, when tied with my follow-up post of Scumhunting: Part 3 of 3, the sheer interactions of GLaDOS and Jarti will be revealed so clearly as a scum team that I would hope the town would be biting at the bit to lynch either player.

[LuckayLuck]

Scumhunting: Part 2 of 3

Why Jarti is Scum

• Jarti begins early day one with an interesting phrase:

  @mod: since town wins with 2 scum dead & one on the guillotine; that means if we lynch 2 scum and have a 3rd scum on guillotine the game will immediately end without us having to play out that next day while the 3rd scum is already gonna die, right?

  This question is sheer madness, and how a townie can be thinking of a scenario with 2 scum dead early in game one is outrageous.
  
• Jarti completely forgets his stance and is seen to just be making things up and throwing wagons on everybody just for fun:
  • Jarti
    attacks me early
    .
    
  • Jarti states that lynching me makes this game
    easy mode
    .
    
  • Jarti
    accuses me of 'buddy-buddy' language.
    
    
  • Jarti
    OFFERS ME DRINKS
    and treats me as a friend.
    
  • To this time, despite repeated ridicule, Jarti has simply ignored any and all comments I, and others, have made about this egregious oversight.
• Jarti finally presents a list after being away for a while. In this list, he states an awkward sentence and I'll quote:

  Only thing that worries about Fate is him seemingly being fine with conci dying when he thought it was a mislynch. Blowing through mislynches this game sucks early on. But he hopped off it once he got the chance, so I won't let it muddle my read.

  The key mistakes Jarti makes here is: 1) He thinks Fate is actually fine with voting someone he thinks is a mislynch and 2) Stating this entire sentence but going nowhere with it, explicitly stating "won't let it muddle my read". What? You won't let something you caught affect your read at all? So you weren't thinking about it, right? Then why would you even make the post?

Taken alone and independently, I would prefer a GLaDOS (Antitown) lynch to Jarti because I clearly have more reasons for voting Antitown than Jarti. However, in Part 3 of 3 of this series, I will reveal a scum conspiracy between GLaDOsTown and Jarti so deep and so subtle that there is only one conclusion we can make: GLaDOS and Jarti are not just independently scummy, but they are scummy TOGETHER.

[LuckayLuck]

Scumhunting: Part 3 of 3

Why GLaDOS (Antitown) and Jarti are Scum PARTNERS

Time to unravel the conspiracy.
We'll start with a quick litmus test of connections.

• Have GLaDOS/Antitown and Jarti ever voted for the same target? No, they have not.
  
• Have GLaDOS/Antitown and Jarti ever attacked each other? No, they have not.
  
• Have GLaDOS/Antitown and Jarti ever interacted with each other (in conversation)? No, they have not.
  
• Have GLaDOS/Antitown and Jarti ever tried to make each other look good in subtle, inobvious ways? Yes.

When it comes to Antitown, he really didn't interact with many people; however, many people commented on him. Lets take a look at Jarti's comments to Antitown, and I must warn you, there are several damning comments in here.


Jarti says early in the game when Antitown wagon was getting a bit of steam:

moving on I didn't like alamaster because he kept his rvs down &

nudged the antitown wagon while it was hot

calling him scummy but no sense of urgency to pressure someone who he thought was scummy; he called out some other scum reads a post earlier before that too but no vote

This is damning. I'll remind everyone that Jarti has not given an opinion on Antitown at this moment in time, yet he is accusing somebody of nudging a hot wagon while suspiciously not giving ANY opinion at all of the validity of said wagon. Classic "Too much knowledge" syndrome but also protecting his fellow scum buddy from being wagoned in an EXTREMELY subtle manner.


This quote is buried in a Jarti wall:

anti you seem frustrated why

A lot of players have expressed frustration. But Jarti only cares about Antitown.
I don't even feel like I need to explain this because this is so damning it speaks volumes by itself, but how about this as an explanation: "Antitown, I would like you to be less frustrated and more cool so you don't get lynched. I haven't had the ability to talk to you in night chat yet, but I'd like to just interact with you here a bit, get you in the right state of mind. I'm not calling you a town or a mafia, I'm just making a comment about your state of mind." By the way, Jarti has only ever concerned himself with one player's state of mind: Antitown's.





Lets talk about GLaDOS's entrance again.

I have six town reads.

Middling Town

zoraster
LuckayLuck

Weak Town

RedCoyote
Jarti

Very Weak Town

Ythill
VP Baltar

GLaDOS readily attributes a fellow scum-mate to a bit of town cred, despite Jarti being rather inactive. This sort of forced read is transparent because the type of players GLaDOS is giving reads on here are unusual. Zoraster, RedCoyote, Jarti? They were basically players that everyone should have had almost no reads on. Missing are again some of the more prolific players. Unusual. I feel like Glados is feeling pretty sneaky, "sneaking" Jarti onto the town list.

In other news, my thoughts have shifted a bit. This is a strange game because I do not think people look scummy so much as I think players seem slightly less Town than others.

Jarti has moved to a Very Weak Town read because I think I may be putting too much stock in a single game observation.

Weird that when reading, Glados mysteriously gets inspiration to move Jarti from 'Weak Town' to 'Very Weak Town' when Jarti hasn't posted at all in the sections Glados is reading. This is distancing. This is overcompensation.

[LuckayLuck]

Scumhunting: Call to Action!

During day one, there are players that a majority of players "can't call town, so might as well lynch them" - a compromise type of lynch; OR, a "there's something scummy about this guy, everyone sort of thinks this, lets lynch them."

These wagons are easier to roll out when they are on town because scum do have three votes and they'll readily vote for town; however, a compromise lynch on scum rarely works.


This has noticeably almost succeeded on VPBaltar, AlmasterGM, Concission, and perhaps even RedCoyote, but has noticeably failed on Antitown.
I implore the town to make it happen. Lets have a lynch. Lets not have it on a compromise lynch, lets have a lynch on somebody that I hope that I have stirred the hearts of all town on as scum: either GLaDOS or Jarti.


I, for one, will be:

Voting for Jarti.

I encourage you all to do the same. Fellow townsmen Fate, crypto, VPBaltar, AlmasterGM, Percy, and Ythill: I encourage you all to set aside your differences and simply

lynch Jarti.

Potential mislynches RedCoyote and Concission, I encourage you all to prove your worth and

lynch Jarti

as the true scum here.

[LuckayLuck]

Or we can lynch GLAdOS.
Really, your call. But we should lynch one of the two.

Okay, I'm done. Barring an exceptional argument, I will not be voting for anyone other than those two.

[LuckayLuck]

Could you explain your opinion on RedCoyote?

Has a town tone to him. Dislike his reads insofar as many are in the general right place, but the most important two are incorrect, which is that you and Jarti are scum.

When I have two scum in hand, town reads are more important of which I have many. The third scum is a little hard to find but once the first two scum - you two - are confirmed, that should make it easier.

[LuckayLuck]

By the way, LuckayLcuk, you just dropped down my list solely for this comment:

I've had Jarti as scum for the last 8 pages,

starting here

.

I played with LuckayLuck years ago (he was Town), and his play here is consistent with his play way back when. [...]

I also think LuckayLuck is actively trying to catch scum, as evidenced by his changing lists and rereads.

Isn't it a shame that me trying everything I can to get you lynched has to get in the way of our friendship.

[LuckayLuck]

... Processing ...

Hello, LuckayLuck. I am not an idiot. And your response is not really a response. And I'm pretty sure you know it.

You indeed have been calling Jarti scum for the last several pages. That's fine. But this does not change the fact that the entire game you have claimed to like Jarti's question and follow-up, in at least three separate posts. And now you are suddenly calling her question "sheer madness" and "outrageous." This is, simply put, a contradiction. Hence, you have fallen down my list.

Post 187, early in the game.

I would also like to point out Jarti's "fake confidence" - on an early half of day one, Jarti is already saying: "ha-hah! As long as we lynch 2 scum and put the 3rd one on the guillotine, the game ends!" Yes, it can be a legitimate question and I can even see some strategy implications of such a question; however, to put it in the same post as "it's easy mode" makes my rendition of Jarti's statement seem correct.

[LuckayLuck]

Post 286: You pretty much rebut the possibility that Jarti's question was scum-motivated.[/list]

Times change.

To keep it brief: I first thought it was scummy, then I thought because of the follow-up it was townish, then I was on the fence, and now I think the first part is so scummy like my gut instinct revealed at first that the whole is scummish (and the follow-up is a clever ploy).

Sure, I could have mentioned "for a moment, I thought Jarti was town, but not anymore" but that is unnecessary in a post in which I aim to take him down.

[LuckayLuck]

Heh. Luck's sooooo convinced that GLaD is scum, and yet answers her questions conversationally and seems concerned about being seen as more suspicious by her. It astounds me that we haven't lynched him yet.

Unbelievable. Really?

Isn't it a shame that me trying everything I can to get you lynched has to get in the way of our friendship.

Would you like me to throw in a "Aha, now you're squirming now that I've turned up the heat?" Because it's a bit redundant as I've stated very clearly that I'm lynching her at all costs.


Yes, I'm concerned about being seen as more suspicious by her slandering of my name in her sudden twist on me after I've presented a well thought out case.

[LuckayLuck]

LL, why do you think Glados is focusing on your supposed contradiction as opposed to explaining why it is she has ignored Jarti this game?
Jarti, do you have anything to say in regards to any of this? About Antitown/Glados or LL as it relates to their alignments?

Glados hasn't ignored Jarti; Antitown did.
The game has been mostly played by Antitown. We must take it as Antitown's game, not Glados'.


As for lynching RedCoyote, this lynch is absolute fail.
I get the feeling that through some combination of complacency as well as two scum being on the lynch (Glados and Jarti are actually both lynching RedCoyote here) that this is absolute disaster.



I don't want to sound pouty but I must admit I will be pouty. I've made my arguments to the best of my ability, I have nothing else to say. Lynching RedCoyote is lynching a player that two scum are on. I will promote RedCoyote to "He's townie" and vigorously defend him by virtue of GLaDOS and Jarti voting him. You will all say I am arguing in a circuitous manner.

Bah humbug.

[LuckayLuck]

LL's case on Glados is pretty derpy at best. First, you can't really use a replacement's play against the replacing player. At best it's corraborating evidence, and yet it makes up a majority of the case here. Thumbs down.

Unbelievable. Of course you can use a replacement's play against the replacing player.
Are you suggesting we throw away everything Antitown has done?

[LuckayLuck]

I accidentally read some of Luck's wall when I read RC's post and he quoted him.

I feel so dirty

[LuckayLuck]

By the way, if by some chance RedCoyote was to get hammered (which would be absolute crazytown when both Jarti and Glados are on him, as far as I'm concerned), and I am killed at night, I hope I'm reviewed and taken more seriously

[LuckayLuck]

Additionally, if you've looked at all, you can see that Antitown has not been on site since he left this game. This makes me believe that it is possible his RL situation was flaring up before he replaced out and it may have contributed to his abysmal play here. I do find it slightly ridiculous to hold GLaDOS responsible for that and I think at best you're experiencing confirmation bias here.

VP Baltar, I don't think I'll be able to convince you of my point but I will at least give it a shot.

You think Antitown played abysmally. I agree. I think it was very scummy as well. You can play bad and still be town; for example, from my perspective you are playing abysmally in not seeing the scummy nature of Antitown and GLaDOS. Again, this is one of those 'to each their own' and it is my biased opinion. You obviously think you're doing the best thing possible for the town. I'm willing to say that because I think you're town. I defended you earlier when you were getting wagoned. I stand by that.

We have a rare scenario in which Antitown played so abysmally that he was readily seen as scum; IN ADDITION, Jarti interacted in ways with Antitown to 'protect him' in subtle ways. Jarti also has scummy activities about him. When GLaDOS came in, she introduced questionable reads. I've just gone ahead and summarized the entire argument post I've had against Jarti and Antitown/GLaDOS yet again but I just feel like it is so so so important to try hard to pull every vote away from Red Coyote and onto Jart/Antitown.

I

know

that RedCoyote is a townie. I know this because of my confidence in the scumminess of GLaDOS and Jarti. Even if I'm wrong on one, the other is still voting RedCoyote. RedCoyote is a compromise lynch. RedCoyote has a townish tone. As much as I want to pick up my ball and go home I can't stop because I have such strong beliefs.

My arguments are out there. Hopefully it will, sooner rather than later, become the majority opinion rather than the minority opinion. That's when I imagine that we'll make some headway in this game.


Yes, I sound ridiculously overconfident here. That's because I am.

[LuckayLuck]

If any one of you can't see how uber-scummy LL and SD are acting here, then I don't think there is a numeric system large enough to quantify how much you suck at mafia.

UNVOTE: Red
VOTE: LuckayLuck

That said, I am ready to end this day and Red is scummy enough by himself to be the D1 lynch. If he is placed @ L-1 and claims VT, I will return to hammer him. (If he claims anything else, CC should be withheld until dawn on D2. Just sayin.)

This is a passionate heat-of-the-moment statement, but may prove to have merit.
In the future, I will refer to this post of mine (or someone should if I'm dead) and Jarti and GLaDOS have both been lynched and revealed scum.

OMGUS.

You must be scum for being so blind.

[LuckayLuck]

also, you never answered my question about meta. Do you think one previously completed game (first on site!) is a sufficient definition of a player's town or scum play? I most certainly do not.

no, but it's a strong indicator especially considering how polar opposites the play are

[LuckayLuck]

Do you believe it is possible for a town player to have a bad game and/or become overwhelmed with RL? I certainly do. Small sample size is small and you're bending evidence to fit your case. I still think you're town, but you have to learn to let go of things when they don't stand on their own.

Why didn't scum take advantage of Antitown's bad game and force him higher up on lynch?
It's been impossible to garner a decent amount of votes for him despite him looking precisely that bad as you've stated. In a way, him not getting votes is indicative of him being scum.

I also think there are things that that townies are less likely to do even when having a bad day. Things like blending. Things like asking what to do when everyone thinks they're scum (Antitown got lynched day 2 of his one previous game - and he acted very boldly even in the face of lynch.) Things like commenting on how a very prolific player (Fate) as doing nothing. They just make no sense except for scum trying to post for the sake of posting. Things like having no valid reads.

[LuckayLuck]

I hope everyone else picked up on how Concission baah-I'm-a-sheeped Luckay's case and bullshitted knowledge about Antitown's meta.

yes, we should. When they're lynched and they reveal as scum, then Concission will be seen to not be the 3rd scum.

[LuckayLuck]

It's unusual coming from me, but we do need to wrap this day up.
At the same time though, we can't lynch Red Coyote because he's a townie.

Isn't that a pickle? Vote for Jarti.

[LuckayLuck]

Jarti is town, scumbag. Bus Shadow.

Fun fact:

You haven't spoken about or referenced Jarti in any way prior to a brief passing very early in the game and have provided essentially zero reasoning on how Jarti is town.

I don't think there has even been much reasoning overall on why Jarti is town. I see a lot of Jarti on suspect lists. Yet, he isn't getting voted.

[LuckayLuck]

LL's case against GLaDOS depends on Antitown as far as I can tell. Not impressed.

This comes up a lot.
If Antitown hadn't replaced, would we be more liable to lynch him? Sure. That's important.

[LuckayLuck]

UNVOTE:

VOTE:

You all know my stance already so I won't beat it into your heads. I think Jarti and GLaDOS are scum.
This does color my opinion on RedCoyote and Concission. RedCoyote because both of my scum suspects are on RedCoyote. Concission because he readily agreed and voted for Jarti alongside me.


Therefore, I'm going for a viable third party. And that is all. I am very disappointed, but the pragmatist in me understands that I am probably not going to get my way today. I'll cross my fingers for tomorrow.

[LuckayLuck]

I think I'm going to like this Vigilante Ventriloquist guy.

[LuckayLuck]

Hey, I had an idea that might help move us forward.

Everyone vote for their top suspect. No compromising.

Only works if everyone's going to do it.

Unvote. Vote Jarti.

[LuckayLuck]

It doesn't make sense because you bitch about random useless wagons popping up and then you vote a random useless wagon. I'm good with lynching AGM tomorrow.

That's not true.

If we reorganize the wagons, I get the feeling that the winds of change will allow LuckayLuck to get lynched.

[LuckayLuck]

If the deadline were to fall now, with all of us voting our top suspects, Simenon would be on the guillotine. We can wait and try to shake something lose if y'all want to, but this is where we stand right now. I'm ready to end the day. Though Sim's not high on my suspect list, he's also not high on my town list, and there are at least a couple of townies on his wagon.

This is the third best lynch in my book. It's a good lynch.
We'll start anew tomorrow. I'll see if I can't shake some blinders off of the Jarti/GLaDOS mafia combo (though I should state that without any extra information, I am as sure as a townie can be of this association) It's also worth mentioning that Simenon has been defending the two above so if he comes up mafia I will have a lot more fuel for my attacks.

Unvote. Vote Simenon.

[LuckayLuck]

@LL - if you help me lynch concission today and she doesn't flip scum, I will vote your choice out of jarti and Glados tomorrow. For realz.

Okay, so this proposition is lose-lose.

1) I really think Jarti & GLaDOS are mafia. If I vote concission (Or Red Coyote), this is a stab into the heart of my belief. Sure, I "get your vote" tomorrow, but the ends do not justify the means here.

2) If I don't vote concission or red coyote, I believe one of those will be the lynch today. So I might as well, right, to get some support tomorrow? But they're both townies. I can't do it.


It's a sad story. It's really sad. I want Jarti & Glados lynched, I believe I've made good cases, but I can't. So I'll go for a Simenon lynch. I argue that he "faked" that he died and posted something "townie-sounding" as a mafia - the classic townie last gasp of reads that a mafia would never do, even after death.

Lets remember the rules.

Ruleset

Bah?

: No bah. When you die, you're dead. There will be a dead QT for you to hang out in though!

So if Simenon truly thought he was dead, this was a violation of the rules, a "Bah." We have to consider whether or not Simenon really thought if he died, whether he didn't read the rules, whether he really was passionate enough to "bah" at his death as a townie or if it was an award-winning fake out.

I don't know. But Simenon is the best lynch I can get today considering that Jarti/Glados seem unlikely.

[LuckayLuck]

Even if he had been lynched he wouldn't be dead. He'd still be alive until the guillotine actually dropped on him tomorrow. So he'd have motivation to post regardless of alignment. -_-;;

True; I was a bit thrown off then by "Ach, I am slain." (Quote taken from simenon)

[LuckayLuck]

Luckay's posts are so goddamn infuriatingly wonk that I sometimes can't help but wonder if he's scum rofling in his seat.

I realize that most of the town is seeing things from a different direction. Hell, I think the only supporter I have is Concission(?!)

From my side, you can believe that I see everybody in this freaking game as so infuriatingly wonk that I don't know if they're seeing the same game as I am. It's an open and shut case.

anti you seem frustrated why

What a gem.

[LuckayLuck]

luck you seem desperate why

what seems desperate?

[LuckayLuck]

your tone and the general 'woe is me' card you keep playing so hard

VOTE: simenon L-2

let's do it

what do you see me as being desperate

about

?

[LuckayLuck]

jarti you seem desperate why

[LuckayLuck]

I submit that my plan is now the top one: power roles do not claim unless threatened by lynch or if it's the day before must lynch. No need to have the power roles come out to be killed off.

In other news, I am a big fan of shooting Simenon to figure out his alignment. Bang!

Vote: Jarti

[LuckayLuck]

If I were the impatient vigilante (and I encourage the impatient vigilante to follow this plan) I would give Simenon about five days to come up with some last words. Give his final recap of what he thinks about the game. I definitely wouldn't shoot him before then.

[LuckayLuck]

By five days, I mean two days. I'm pretty impatient myself.

[LuckayLuck]

I'm sad that I was wrong.

[LuckayLuck]

Well, whatever. What's done is done. LL, how does the claim change your predictions on the game?

A lot of course. Given how great things could change on Simenon's reveal, I'll spare the gory details.

[LuckayLuck]

I'm swayed by VPBaltar's both emotional as well as logical argument in Post 868 against Concission. Prior to me getting pigeonholed into seeing through Jarti & GLaDOS as that scum pair, I had Concission on the unknown list. With GLaDOS and Simenon clear, my list of available suspects has dropped a lot. Therefore, I should be fine with a Concission lynch.

At the same time, I'm a bit swayed by Fate's "concission mislynch" - I re-read Concission. There are pangs of townhood there.


Who do I want to lynch? It's a very narrow path, given how many players I've attributed villager qualities to. It actually comes down to simply {Jarti, Zoraster, Shadow Dancer} as my top 3. Oh LuckayLuck, that maverick.



VP Baltar, your statement of "open your eyes" town could become very ironic should Concission actually be a townie. I want to just trust you and go for her, but those villager qualities of her prevent me from doing so - I'll list them out later and you can attempt to shoot them down later. Briefly, they come from very strong opinions - I feel the opinions are incorrect, but they seem to come from a "limited knowledge" (townie-side) of the game and they are presented with a townie-like attitude.

Concission, I think that VP Baltar is a townie, and is actually the one person I trust the most in this game.

[LuckayLuck]

all right. just finished getting lynched, ready to focus on this game, sorry about that. Reading now, will be posting within the next few hours.

I propose we ironically lynch zoraster today.

in all honesty it isn't a bad idea

[LuckayLuck]

I'm a little embarrassed to have been needed to be prodded. The truth is, I'm a little deflated since GLaDOS is a townie.
Both deflated and lost.

There's merit - lots of merit in a Jarti lynch, though. I had individual reasons for a Jarti scum, and Vigilante Ventriloquist has solid reasons as well.


Crypto, I would be interested in hearing your arguments on why Jarti is town.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote. Vote Zoraster.

Lets explore a little.

Fate, in a quick response to your breadcrumb; there was a brief moment in which I was so annoyed at your general posting / stubbornness that I thought that you were actually mafia.

I don't discount that possibility still, despite your (what seem to be) extremely passionate posts of recent. Could be fake passion. On the whole I think you're town, Fate - and I take your posts with seriousness (part of the reason I'm moving onto Zoraster away from Jarti is because I agree with you that paranoia is a villager trait). But I also respect you enough to think you could be an extremely good mafia.


This game; there's not enough suspects for me - mafia is playing well. I was extremely fortunate for GLaDOS to have been a power role, lest I would have been heading in an extremely incorrect direction. I do plan on re-reading the entirety of the thread with what (little, but still some) information I now know, probably mainly going to be focusing on people who "seem to know too much"

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer

(L-1)

I will throw caution to the winds and trust in crypto & fate. I begrudgingly give Jarti credit on having a 'note to self' on Shadow Dancer's shady activities.

Post #1048 of Shadow Dancer's actually simply makes no sense. It has no townie flow to it.

[LuckayLuck]

I think I figured out who Concission is possibly. -__- if I'm right, I will only say that you haven't been so good at reading me in the past.

Boy you're scummy.

What prompted you to accuse VP Baltar of scumminess here?

[LuckayLuck]

Alimaster thinks I'm scum, several people I think are townies (VP Baltar, crypto, Fate) are voting for him; however, I just have to say:

I think AlimasterGM is a townie.

It's a tone read. I don't have evidence. I could make a post explaining why I think he's a townie based on specific intonations and such, but I won't. This makes this post really worth nothing, but I figured I should get my stance on that lynch out there.

[LuckayLuck]

Shadow Dancer,

Your last four posts have been pretty low content for a guy who's about to be lynched.

[LuckayLuck]

I'm sad because town has lost the game.

[LuckayLuck]

Lets be honest. If I made an argument, nobody would listen.

[LuckayLuck]

The mafia team is Shadow Dancer, zoraster, and Jarti. Bam.

Why? A lot of townies are are 'obvious.' Fate. VP Baltar. Crypto. AlimasterGM. Vigilante Ventriloquist. Even Concission and RedCoyote have townie qualities. I would argue I have a lot of townie qualities. Am I being fooled? Is Fate so deceptive that despite his blatantly townie tone, he's actually a mafia? Is VP Baltar, who almost got lynched day 1 but fought his way out with excellent townie posting and has been keeping that up actually mafia? Is Crypto, a player who has been seemingly the anchor holding together the town mafia? Is AliamsterGM, he with such emotion and getting near-lynched multiple times yet still fighting hard in a townie way mafia? Is Vigilante Ventriloquist, formerly Percy, who I have seen with a decent train of thought and reads, mafia? Have I been fooled? I would like to think not, but if I am, then I am fooled. But the terrible thing is that I believe I'm on most of the above's mafia lists.

There's nothing I can do here. The only thing I can do is vote Shadow Dancer and hope AlimasterGM isn't the lynch. You sure aren't going to take my word for it.

[LuckayLuck]

You were doing so well LL, but I suppose its hard to keep up that "YOU ARE A TOWNIE!" facade for long when you can just coast to victory on a delayed set-up and dumbtown fighting eachother.

BUT YOU UNDERESTIMATE ME!

Dumbtown's about to lynch AlimasterGM whom I consider a townie.

So what if he's lynched and then in two days he shows up townie? Nobody will care. I'll point to it, you'll say I knew he was a townie because I'm scum and have perfect information of who's who.

Where's the emo emoticon? :emo:

[LuckayLuck]

It's mostly depressing because accusations are mostly flying on Fate(?!), Alimaster(?!), VPBaltar(?!), and myself.

There's no way it'll actually fly, but if the four of us formed a coalition things would be much better. A shame that GLaDOS has basically all of the above on her scumlist.

[LuckayLuck]

The mafia team is Shadow Dancer, zoraster, and Jarti. Bam.

I'm thinking I'm actually only 2 for 3 here.

[LuckayLuck]

The mafia team is Shadow Dancer, zoraster, and Jarti. Bam.

I'm thinking I'm actually only 2 for 3 here.

That's good news for you, because I'm thinking it's only one of Shadow Dancer/Zoraster.

If there's one person to lynch preferably, it's Jarti for me. He never addressed his change in attitude to me during day one, and his re-change on day two, despite it being a sticking point.

[LuckayLuck]

I re-iterate my pointless point that I strongly oppose an AlmasterGM lynch.

[LuckayLuck]

Fate,

Who next after AlmasterGM? We won't even know we mislynched him until the day after.
Here I am talking to you like you're a town yet I feel like it's simply a town stroll into disaster.

[LuckayLuck]

Vote: Jarti

I admit I had a moment when I thought Fate was mafia. I thought he was low-content, high-volume.
He came around to being both high-content and high-volume and he broadcasted in a townie sort of way.

Therefore, allow me to state my stance against a Fate lynch.


As far as Shadow Dancer is concerned, I think we lynched a mafia, but that is to be determined (and may be determined today even).
As far as my stance on players go, based on the "speed" of how information moves in this game, my reads remain the same for the most part; I've left ample information on my stance on players.


I do think there's an extremely high amount of townie crossfire (townie v townie violence), but I'm happy Shadow Dancer became the lynch yesterday night ultimately.

[LuckayLuck]

Vote: RedCoyote

Pressure's on big boy. VPB-Fate FTW. Let the hater's hate.

where'd my post go? this might be a duplicate

Vote: RedCoyote

VPB-Fate-LuckayLuck!?!?!?

[LuckayLuck]

UNVOTE:

There's an awful lot of townie crossfire going on in this game.

[LuckayLuck]

Vote: Zoraster

I was tempted to just post the above, but that would look too cryptic and wagony to people who hadn't paid attention to me earlier, but yes, I have thought Zoraster would make for a pretty good lynch

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote

Vote Jarti!!!!!

I want to hear why

not

Jarti, since no wagons have ever managed to be put on him.

[LuckayLuck]

Town apathy is a terrible thing and pretty much every game I've ever played that has gone this way, I've lost. I know I'm not playing at my best either, so I guess I can't bitch too much, but I do feel like I've been trying to point out relevant things all game (such as wagons that repeatedly stall at L-1) and almost no one is listening to me.

I don't consider this game one of town apathy, a lot of players have very strong opinions.
It turns out that a lot of players have very differing strong opinions, hence a difficulty to gain consensus.

@Jarti: I've seen that you've been, in a frustrated way, commenting on how I've been tunneling on you. Help me un-tunnel. Address my main point against you. This is from a while ago, but still has not had sufficient explanation.

• Jarti changes his stance significantly without explanation.
  • Jarti
    attacks me early
    .
    
  • Jarti states that lynching me makes this game
    easy mode
    .
    
  • Jarti
    accuses me of 'buddy-buddy' language.
    
    
  • Jarti
    OFFERS ME DRINKS
    and treats me as a friend.
    
  • To this time, despite repeated ridicule, Jarti has simply ignored any and all comments I, and others, have made about this egregious oversight.

[LuckayLuck]

@Jarti: I'm also extremely curious as to how you can take this tone in subsequent posts - one to almost lynch zoraster, and the other after zoraster claimed redeemed soul.

VOTE: zoraster end the day already

Luck does the fact no substantial wagons formed on me mean I must be scum?

Zoraster had no substantial wagons looking through the mod ISO throughout the game either until this point, and looks like he's town. Everyone ignoring a player slot doesn't make the slot scum.

It gets harder not to want to lynch you, when you've been insistent on tunneling on town players; and one of your main ways of allowing yourself to tunnel on them is shaky PoE posts clearing everyone else as townie.

You take a very neutral point of view here, as if a player who had nothing to do zoraster, in your second post - when you were just about to lynch the guy.

[LuckayLuck]

Why I Think Concission is a Townie

Reason 1: Tone

In a nutshell, it's because of tone. She has been a suspect for the majority of the game; she was very heavily pressured on day one. I thought her responses were coming from a genuinely frustrated townie. It is a tone that I feel is difficult to fake.

I'm trying to imagine how funny all of what you've been saying once I flip town.

The method works back and forth. I'm not betting everything on you-scum but I'm pretty sure, sure enough to be able to start work on looking for your buddy.

Crypto needs to stop tunneling. He's been under the false impression that he caught scum and thus playing quite complacently. Please look into people other than me. Brand them my partner if you like, just DO IT.
VP clearly has no intention to find scum.
Fate's comment on Ythill bothers me. I find his tone quite off for town.

Ok guys. Lynch me now or never. I hate how many people are tunneling on me and don't make a decent case. I feel it is a strong distraction for me from scum-hunt and a demotivator for my mood. So it's something we need to deal with right NOW.

Unvote.Vote:zoraster

Reason 2: A Lost Townie

I don't think it's any secret given how pretty much everyone has been changing reads that in this game, it is difficult to have a good bearing on reads. We have to rely more on our own interpretation of events, which is mostly why everybody is going in several different directions.

sigh my reads are changing like wildfire after Jarti and Fate's posts. Though, I still think LL is town, I think I can go with this:

Unvote.Vote:AGM

Concission seems to genuinely have changed reads 'like wildfire' as she explains here.

Being A Lost Townie isn't an insult - hell, I'm a lost townie. I consider most townies in this game to be, at the time being, mostly lost.

Reason 3: Is Shadow Dancer Scum?

Because if Shadow Dancer is, and we lynch Concission now, then we'd lose a pretty serious piece of information in Concission being the L-1 vote.

I'd prefer an SD lynch

Vote:Shadow Dancer

Come on, we need 1 more vote.

[LuckayLuck]

DONT YOU IGNORE ME LUCK

You get a great big heart from me, Fate <3

[LuckayLuck]

Crypto, here's what mine looks like. Thought I'd share.

crypto

AlmasterGM
Concission

zoraster

Fate

Jarti

LuckayLuck

Vigilante Ventriloquist

RedCoyote

VP Baltar

LuckayLuck

AlmasterGM

Concission

crypto

zoraster

Fate

Jarti

Vigilante Ventriloquist

RedCoyote

VP Baltar

Do I lose credibility for this list? Probably, but it's best to come clean, I find.

[LuckayLuck]

I think we should assume Shadow Dancer is scum, and play off of that.

[LuckayLuck]

ISO 12

Which post is this?

[LuckayLuck]

Luck, I've tried several times to find a game you were in via the general forum link you provided us about your meta, and I can't find any. I need you to link me a game you played as town and a game you played as scum (offsite) pronto tonto.

Townie (2/21 - 2p2 forums)

In all honesty, I have no relevant game I've played as a scum as of late.

[LuckayLuck]

ISO 12

Which post is this?

?

[LuckayLuck]

...that's your response to being prodded?

considering that there's about a month and a half's worth of case that I've been putting on the same person, yes, this is an answer I need before continuing

[LuckayLuck]

Shadow Dancer,

If you're town you do this game a great disservice by convincing us that you're scum.
What say you to that?

[LuckayLuck]

ISO 12

Which post is this?

?

ok, alternatively, open question to everyone
when someone says to look at their "ISO 12" what does that mean? Jarti has been referring to a post of his that addresses my questions, yet I have read his posts and have not been able to find it.

I must have my answer!

[LuckayLuck]

raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage jarti never answered the question.

[LuckayLuck]

@Jarti: I've seen that you've been, in a frustrated way, commenting on how I've been tunneling on you. Help me un-tunnel. Address my main point against you. This is from a while ago, but still has not had sufficient explanation.

• Jarti changes his stance significantly without explanation.
  • Jarti
    attacks me early
    .
    
  • Jarti states that lynching me makes this game
    easy mode
    .
    
  • Jarti
    accuses me of 'buddy-buddy' language.
    
    
  • Jarti
    OFFERS ME DRINKS
    and treats me as a friend.
    
  • To this time, despite repeated ridicule, Jarti has simply ignored any and all comments I, and others, have made about this egregious oversight.

This is the "question."

There has been a month of avoiding the question. Whether or not Jarti's intention was to avoid the question was on purpose remains to be seen, but I consider his constant evasion of a direct answer to be of scummy nature.

Jarti took no credit to almost lynching zoraster as well, instead criticizing players as a whole for doing so, despite putting a rather key vote on it.

Jarti was always a disconnect to the game, and is thus my #1 suspect by quite a significant margin.

[LuckayLuck]

***

Vote Count #43

Shadow Dancer: RedCoyote, LuckayLuck, Jarti, AlmasterGM, Concission, Vigilante Ventrioloquist (Lynch!)

AlmasterGM: zoraster, VP Baltar, crypto, Shadow Dancer, Fate
Fate: GLadOS,

Vigilante Ventrioloquist

RedCoyote:

Fate

Not voting:

Concission

Okay, the next about...3 hours (and perhaps a very brief 5 minutes early tomorrow morning) will be what I can do before the lynch goes through.

I'll be real here. I think everyone except Jarti has town qualities. I'm obviously wrong there, and I could be wrong on Jarti. I think that pretty much means Shadow Dancer has to be scum.

I'll be the first to admit that this assumption is dangerous, but I believe it is necessary and we must lynch today under the assumption that Shadow Dancer was scum. So we have the above vote count to work with, as well as who he attacked (Red Coyote and AlmasterGM as the big two) - see below.

Alma

: Seems to be pretty much active lurking, popping in here and there, dropping some rather innocuous ramarks and disappearing again. I really want to hear more from him, at least some opinion about every player or something like that to start with.

[...]

So I'll join the Alma waggon (

vote count please

)

unvote. vote Alma

Just realized that seems to be already L-1! I had overlooked Ythill's vote ;\

I tried to ISO RC... twice... since his strange buddying attempt made me realize how much of a blind spot he was for me... And all I got was becoming tackled hard by boredom... So I decided to ignore his WOTs and concentrate on the newer developement.
One thing is sure: He looks bad in the conforntation with Glados and is the only one who looked really worse under pressure so far...

Beware, vote taxx coming
VOTE: RedCoyote (whee, those really work )

!!! L-1 !!!

I don't expect you to read my walls unless you have an issue with me. This is mostly defense oriented anyways.

Is this true for all of your ugly posts or just your latest ones?

Maybe instead of dodging the actual point I'm making and sticking your fingers in your ears, you'll take a breath, read over Antitown's abysmal posts, and come to your senses.

You want to convince Glados that Anti was scum O_o Ythil's right for once: Hilarious!

That means that

I believe we cannot lynch RedCoyote or AlmasterGM today.

To a lesser extent, I don't think we should lynch somebody who voted for Shadow Dancer (which happens to include RedCoyote & Almaster, as well as myself, Concission, and Vigilante).

[LuckayLuck]

[Unvote. Vote VP Baltar.]

I could hardly have imagined me ever voting VP Baltar, but I have reviewed (a quick review, admittedly, but a review nonetheless) the game under the lens of Shadow Dancer being scum, and I can only come to the conclusion that VP Baltar is one noticeable person in that scenario.

With 6 people I don't want to lynch because they voted for Shadow Dancer (this does include Jarti), with zoraster being obvious townie, with crypto having shown willingness to vote for Shadow Dancer (but admittedly not ending on him), it really leaves only Fate and VPBaltar as votes.

I've called both of them townies again and again.

I truly find it unbelievable that I'm going to vote VP Baltar.

What made me choose Baltar over Fate? This.

If SD flips scum, lynch ViVi. If town, AGM/RC.

Agree with this completely.

I feel like the third is such an enigma, but ah well. I want to start steamrolling the scum here and then we will have a better idea where we are at.

Congrats zoraster!

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote

call it insurance incase AGM really is your buddy.

1) VP Baltar agrees that if SD flips scum, it would be a bad idea to lynch RC. (Well, he doesn't say that exactly, and neither does Fate, but given that SD did attack AGM/RC pretty clearly, it would be a bad idea to lynch either if SD was scum.)

2) VP Baltar then votes RedCoyote.

3) EXCEPT MY ENTIRE CASE IS WRECKED BY:

SD looks very likely scum here, so RC being first on that wagon and SD now adding steam to the RC wagon in his death throes gives me pause enough to

Unvote

It's a timing thing - I guess VP Baltar figured SD as scum a little after his initial votes and contemplations, so it sort of works out.




So...

[Unvote VP Baltar. Vote Fate.]

In all honesty, this game is madness.

[LuckayLuck]

One of my reads is terribly terribly wrong. I don't know which, but one of them is.

Who are your top 2 choices of players off the SD wagon?

VV,

I only go into crazy paranoia theories when all other possibilities have been eliminated.

I come to the conclusion that the reason why this game has been difficult is because whoever is scum is doing a very good tone job of sounding like a townie. We are fortunate to have had Concission and yourself be the two votes to finish Shadow Dancer (it was 5-4 with Almaster leading...but Shadow Dancer got lynched) - I think that's the saving grace for this town.

Again, this all assumes that Shadow Dancer is scum. If he isn't, well...uhhh...we're sort of screwed.


So anyways, in this crazy paranoid world, the three scum are: {Shadow Dancer, and a crazy combo of 2 in these 3: Fate, Crypto, VP Baltar}

Yes, I just put the three players who have been consistently on my town list on my three scum list.




I salute you scum, whoever you are, for you have truly made me .

[LuckayLuck]

Quit whining about having to vote for someone.

We can only trust you and I'd hope you'd see we can't vote Alamaster and RedCoyote because of SD likely flipping scum. I considered earlier just following you, but you were voting Alamaster.

So I would hope you would change your vote.

[LuckayLuck]

I cannot believe you're putting so much emphasis on who SD was attacking. How's this for damning even if we "have" to assume SD is scum: AGM didn't want to vote SD. Like, really didn't want to: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2866398 follow that area of the thread.

I can't believe you aren't putting emphasis where emphasis should be had.

SD came very close to lynching AlamasterGM. That implies that if SD is mafia, then AlamasterGM probably isn't on the same team as SD.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote, Vote: AGM

Fuck it. Zoraster is right. AGM has been scummy all game and I shouldn't immediately discount him just because SD could be scum. Fate, get on board with this lynch.

Given how "likely" it is that Shadow Dancer is scum, this isn't a reasonable lynch today.

It's a reasonable lynch tomorrow if Shadow Dancer isn't scum, and we'll know that tomorrow; if he is scum, we'll have lynched one of the worst people to lynch today.

[LuckayLuck]

If SD was guaranteed scum I'd want a power lynch on Vivi, none of this "I won't vote anyone on scum's wagon" horseshit.


Talk about misguided town. I'd take a Maemuki lynch right now though, given her lack of replacing up and more "this is who I feel like buddying and the stances I want to take" as a scumbag feel to her posts.

u srs bro
I'll let his comment on 'lack of replacing of a player who replaced into a ginormous game just a real day or two ago' stand for its own absurdity

anyways, I leave my vote on Fate.


I don't know if I'm a misguided town, I hope not, but I've come to the conclusion that this is the "best" vote for today given the circumstances.*

*Of the world as I see it. Just like any other mafia game. Sigh.

[LuckayLuck]

Oh hell to the no.

VOTE:

[LuckayLuck]

That bothers me about Fate a touch Though I really don't see why Fate scum would start calling SD town at the 11th hour. That doesn't make much sense.

To get out of lynch by any means necessary?

[LuckayLuck]

Actions speak louder than words.

Fate not only got out of lynch by making an argument which has just been proven to be completely incorrect, but also by lynching somebody who was certain to look extremely good after Shadow Dancer flipped town.

Fate didn't address Shadow Dancer's alignment until the final part of yesterday. If you have a contrary opinion such as Shadow Dancer = town, you don't keep it until the last minute.


Fate's had a lot of us fooled. His tone really does sound like that of a townie. But no longer.

[LuckayLuck]

no, Fate is town. He had no purpose to call SD town late yesterday. I actually think you're scummy for pushing his lynch Luckay. You are looking for easy blood in the water. VV looks much worse.

The only way to get Concission lynched was to call SD town.
Because if SD wasn't town, then we shouldn't lynch Concission.


What are you doing, Baltar??

[LuckayLuck]

2 Notes:

1) I think Fate should in fact vote himself. If not, he's shown himself to flat out lie. Does he sound persuasive, does he sound passionate? Yes. Are his actions all incorrect? Yes. The man can talk the talk, but he walks like a scumbag.

2) Equinox is pretty much guaranteed to be good. Thanks for subbing into a role in which you're guaranteed to die tomorrow, but I do think his fresh perspective should be taken very seriously as he's a guy we can trust.

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote: Fate

as I would like to hear Equinox's thoughts.

Though the direction of his thoughts is a little troubling.

[LuckayLuck]

I don't think Fate is scum because calling Shadow Dancer town at the very last minute when his flip was imminent is not the sort of thing I see scum doing. It would have been better to bus Shadow Dancer to the end. What Fate did drew negative publicity, and I'm sure Fate-scum would've been aware that this would happen prior to defending Shadow Dancer. Those posts read more to me like he wanted to be Cassandra for a day.

"Wine in front of me" argument

Fate's "alignment" was decided on his intent on whether or not to voting Shadow Dancer, not on what he thought about Shadow Dancer after. Perhaps it's clever that he shouted about Shadow Dancer being town, trying to mask his information.

By the way, the most damning thing is that Fate really sprung his "Shadow Dancer is town" argument in the last bit, he didn't reveal this controversial thought anywhere in the first 2 weeks of the last game day.

[LuckayLuck]

prod acknowledgement

have nothing to say other than "isn't fate scum? really? you guys don't think he is? I mean I think he is but I'm starting to doubt myself because everyone's in crazymode"

[LuckayLuck]

To address case against Fate in English:

1) Fate is scum because last game day, in a game day in which the scenario of Shadow Dancer's alignment was paramount, Fate did not bring it up until the very last moment of the last game day. This led to a lynch that was, on hindsight (of knowing Shadow Dancer's alignment) extremely terrible.

2) Only reason I'm doubting myself is because Fate is pulling on everyone's heartstrings with his townie bluster. Look, I admit that he sounds like a townie; his play has been anything but though.



As far as other people I'd humor lynching, it'd be again going back to the Shaow Dancer events. Don't feel up to it at the moment as we have a lot of players not present, but

***

Vote Count #43

Shadow Dancer: RedCoyote, LuckayLuck, Jarti, AlmasterGM, Concission, Vigilante Ventrioloquist (Lynch!)

AlmasterGM: zoraster, VP Baltar, crypto, Shadow Dancer, Fate
Fate: GLadOS,

Vigilante Ventrioloquist

RedCoyote:

Fate

Not voting:

Concission

I'll say this much:

I

won't

lynch RedCoyote or AlmasterGM.



@ Fate: Do you really think Vigilante Ventriloquist is so scummy when attached to Shadow Dancer? I mean, VV hammered SD. I know this is a surface argument but on a day in which AlmasterGM was almost lynched, that was a pretty serious move.

[LuckayLuck]

[Vote: Crypto]

Why not?

[LuckayLuck]

Hammering a scum that is going down sooner or later gives town points? lol

And hammering Shadow Dancer over AlmasterGM doesn't?

No, not at all. Shadow's days were clearly numbered. If VV is scum, I could see him as simply trying to get some town points out of a losing situation. Had Shadow not been lynched that day, it was quite possible he would have gone the next. That would have left VV as obv scum in a few days, ie endgame...ie, just when you don't want to be obv scum.

By making this post you state an idea of "Shadow's days were clearly numbered" which isn't obvious to anybody except perhaps scum with Shadow being a scum buddy. How were Shadow's days clearly numbered? You were just blinded to it because you were his scum buddy.

greyICE was correct

[vote: VP Baltar]

don't care how scummy my flip floppery looks like, don't care about my previous reads. Go with the here and now, baby.
Fate's town too. I don't care what I said just a couple moments ago about calling him scum.

The crypto vote was because I was on the fence on whether or not Fate was scum or not.

[LuckayLuck]

I will not address any further inquiries about my play nor any flip floppery I have taken. What I have done stands as is. Sue me.

[LuckayLuck]

VP baltar will never be on my scumlist on the basis of the SD flip

fuckign reevaluate based on flips kthxbiedumbass

argument falls apart as vp baltar has revealed that he expected sd to go eventually, hence if he ever voted or attacked sd, then it was purely to his benefit.

I'm going to just repeatedly quote a damning statement because that's all the rage

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

Shadow's days were clearly numbered.

[LuckayLuck]

Red Team Alliance

[LuckayLuck]

lol at using page 2 interactions????

[LuckayLuck]

LuckayLuck, how caught up were you in the thread when you voted crypto?

And yeah, this question needs answering, please.

all the way

[LuckayLuck]

all the way

...yet you somehow missed that chesskid3 replaced crypto?

...

yes.



not sure how that's relevant, but I did know crypto and maemuki were being replaced out and I knew some people were coming in and I voted crypto because I wanted to before anyways, didn't really care who replaced him

[LuckayLuck]

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer

(L-1)

I will throw caution to the winds and trust in crypto & fate. I begrudgingly give Jarti credit on having a 'note to self' on Shadow Dancer's shady activities.

Post #1048 of Shadow Dancer's actually simply makes no sense. It has no townie flow to it.

The mafia team is Shadow Dancer, zoraster, and Jarti. Bam.

I'm thinking I'm actually only 2 for 3 here.

btw, the reason I corrected myself here is because I figured one of SD or Jarti was the scum (but not both)

[LuckayLuck]

The mafia team is Shadow Dancer, zoraster, and Jarti. Bam.

I'm thinking I'm actually only 2 for 3 here.

That's good news for you, because I'm thinking it's only one of Shadow Dancer/Zoraster.

If there's one person to lynch preferably, it's Jarti for me. He never addressed his change in attitude to me during day one, and his re-change on day two, despite it being a sticking point.

errrr, never mind. It was because of this.

I'm doing a re-read of myself. etc.




whatever. My tone might sound scummy. I've bounced around a lot of wagons. But when it came down to it, I put shadow dancer at L-1 and stayed on it.

that's my self-defense.

[LuckayLuck]

why crypto:

he didn't vote shadow dancer.

[LuckayLuck]

greyice,

thanks for posting quotes from mine which make my town-dom seem more likely
because they are pretty townish

[LuckayLuck]

Welcome to

Team Red

, Equinox.

[LuckayLuck]

Suddenly, this game has gotten broken wide open

[LuckayLuck]

RedCoyote has made good points. The main argument is that SD "would not" defend VP Baltar so much as a scum-buddy, which I find fairly compelling.

Well - risks be damned, I'm pretty sure this puts me at leader for lynch but I'd rather go for a "better" lynch.

[Unvote VP Baltar. Vote Chesskid.]

About crypto: He voted against a Shadow Dancer lynch. His tone was pretty townish and calm, but chesskid coming in has really let loose a couple of scummy comments.

[LuckayLuck]

I reserve the right to chew out every single member of this town excluding RC and chesskid (if town) when this game is finished.

Does Fate reserve the right to do that too?

[LuckayLuck]

I'm appreciative of GreyICE subbing in. Why did I make the "this game has been broken wide open" post earlier? Because of him.

He's gained my trust, he's brought up excellent points. Granted, so has RedCoyote, but the best of his points is Fate actually being town. And also that of uncovering a lot of suspicious activities on VP Baltar when I could see none.


I'd hope the voters of Fate seriously reconsider and perhaps instead of re-reading Fate and VP Baltar, they could read the bite-sized well made 'brief analysis' from GreyIce.

VOTE:

By the way, I think the two scum are VP Baltar and Chesskid. We do have a town deeply divided - the sub-ins have provided some amount of unity, but ultimately, players really are torn on this issue of Fate. I was earlier this game day. Really? A good philosophy? Likely to just trust the GreyICE.

[LuckayLuck]

Just as a side note for when this game is done, if you don't act like a twat I will most likely respond to you in a fair manner and give you my best effort, regardless of what you think about my alignment. The fact that you misrepresent every single point in that case to make it fit your tunneling and sound weaker than it actually is doesn't really give me any incentive to debate it with you.

u srs

greyice engaged your points in a logical fashion. Granted, I should probably have been the one to do it, but I never would have.
greyice makes excellent points on why your points are questionable. He aims to attack the arguments rather than you, vp baltar, and I argue it is you who is twatting the arguments up. Greyice is certainly giving this game his best effort, and you swatting them aside is not a point in your favor.

So I was going to make that post when I saw your post, but then I read the rest of the thread.

Fact is, I have a sinking feeling about lynching you, Baltar. I really do. I had it with Fate as well.
I would much prefer to lynch chesskid, the former crypto. Why? I'm not much with words. I make my case in exactly ten words in my next post.

[LuckayLuck]

Ten Words:

I want to lynch crypto (chesskid) because of these events.

Vote Count #37

Shadow Dancer: Fate, RedCoyote, crypto, Jarti, LuckayLuck (L-1!)

AlmasterGM: zoraster, VP Baltar, Concission
RedCoyote: GLaDOS, Shadow Dancer
zoraster: AlmasterGM,

LuckayLuck

Concission: Vigilante Ventriloquist

Wow.

Unvote. Vote: Shadow Dancer.

Okay, this is beyond ridiculous. Whoever has the most votes come next vote count out of Concission, AGM, and SD gets my vote along with everyone else's.

Fuck it.

Unvote. Vote: AlmasterGM.

Everything he says in 1089 is scummy.

Vote Count #38

Shadow Dancer: Fate, RedCoyote,

crypto

, Jarti, LuckayLuck (L-2)
AlmasterGM: zoraster, VP Baltar,

Concission

, crypto
RedCoyote: GLaDOS, Shadow Dancer
zoraster: AlmasterGM
Concission: Vigilante Ventriloquist

[LuckayLuck]

There are connections everywhere here. We're in dire straights. Assumptions have to be made. Here's my quicky assumption roadmap:

Warning

: This really is more of me thinking outloud and isn't well organized. One could call it rambling. So I'll just spoiler it. It's not worthy of a post of any strategic value other than seeing my though process.

We start with RedCoyote, who in my opinion is the clearest person here from known interactions with Shadow Dancer.

So I trust RedCoyote.


RedCoyote strongly feels that VP Baltar is a townie. He provides good reasoning.

So I think I can take a leap of faith and roll with that. That VP Baltar is a townie. It bucks what I've been actually doing (voting Baltar) but I have stated my reluctance on this lynch.


We go onto GreyICE. Extremely passionate in his entrance, wants to just lynch VP Baltar. Period. Because he's found reason to. He's prvoided good reasoning here. He defends myself and Fate. He provides good reasoning on both. He was formerly Jarti, who I had been attacking all game too - but Shadow Dancer's being a mafia does clear GreyICE a bit. (clears Jarti.)

We move onto Fate. Fate has such a strong townie "tone". I thought he might have been fooling me. But nobody has a tone that good. Nobody*.

*anything is possible, but not probable

Who does that leave that isn't in my "messed up circle of trust" which is as follows:

LuckayLuck
GreyICE & Fate
RedCoyote & VP Baltar


It leaves:

AlmasterGM
chesskid3
Vigilante Ventriloquist



We look back at that Shadow Dancer lynch.

Vigilante Ventriloquist was the hammer. He didn't have to. He's made a couple of posts which seem to come from a townie. So I trust VV.

We look at AlmasterGM. He was the counter-wagon to Shadow Dancer. It was so close. This leads me to think AlmasterGM is a townie.



Really, all it leaves is chesskid3. Now I know there's a second scum as well, and it is possible that both AlmasterGM and Shadow Dancer were both scum but just from how the day unfolded and the tension on the wagons, I don't think that is it. That's combined with my general read on everyone else as well.


In nearly all scenarios, chesskid3 is the odd-one out. He did NOT vote for Shadow Dancer. He actively moved away from him. He's been shady in his sub-in. That's why I want to lynch him. I'm uncertain about who the second mafia is.

I can only reconcile by thinking: VP Baltar is playing a very slick game as a mafioso, and has actually fooled RedCoyote. It may not be VP Baltar being slick persay as much as it is Shadow Dancer being slick. And further, Shadow Dancer's "slickness" is that of actually DEFENDING VP Baltar on day one, a day in which VP Baltar was in danger of being lynched.

I mean really, we're giving credit to VP Baltar being town because a mafia is defending him. Yes, it makes some sense "because mafia don't defend other mafia so hard" but yet it makes sense that "VP Baltar is mafia because a mafia didn't want his fellow friend lynched."

==========================

I come to a reluctant, uneasy conclusion that chesskid3 is a mafia, alongside VP Baltar. Which means I'm fine with this lynch. I loop back to this conclusion "starting" with a thought that doesn't want to lynch VP Baltar, but I finally convince myself that there isn't many more possibilities.

So this is my final post for this game day. I hold my breath, I realize the divisiveness of the town, and I can just make my best educated guess here. Though I think chesskid is the best chance and may give us extra info (who looks good/bad with crypto showing mafia?) I don't think it's possible to get that lynch today.



I'm pretty sure town loses if Fate gets lynched today, btw

[LuckayLuck]

A lot of last minute passionate arguments here. Clearly, people feel very strongly about the lynch of VP Baltar vs Fate.

I don't know if I'm on the right side here, I really don't. There are people who are "sure" they're on the right side voting either player. I happen to be more sure of Baltar than Fate. But I admit, there's a lot of townie activities from both players (as well as a lot of scummy activities.)

That's fence sitting, so I'm just going to say this - my vote stays on VP Baltar until the end of the day. It is also my hope that VP Baltar is the lynchee. I don't think Fate is scum. I think VP Baltar is about 2nd or 3rd most likely to be scum despite 'connections' from Shadow Dancer. I make the argument that perhaps one should read the SD-VP interactions as Shadow Dancer PROTECTING VP Baltar from lynch on a day in which it seemed possible that VP Baltar would get lynched. When you see it that way, VP really should go.


Equinox, you pointed out that you 'question why you play Mafia' - I re-confirm why. When there's good Mafia, and I really believe that there is here based on the absolute divisiveness of this town and the uncertainty in the air (and for today, it's not because of the mechanic -- we "know" equinox is town), the game is hard. It really is.

[LuckayLuck]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Ah, ah, ah.

[LuckayLuck]

*popcorn*

RC & VV, thoughts?

[LuckayLuck]

fate,

imagine I'm placing an imaginary vote on vp right now, ok?

[LuckayLuck]

VV,

Your stance on the game is madness.

[LuckayLuck]

virtuoso scum performance
lots of people played hard this game. It turns out that most were wrong, but they played their hardest. That made it both fun and frustrating.