Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Confirming replacing in. Will hopefully have a readthrough/catch-up completed by tomorrow night.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I know I said I was hoping to be done by tonight, but a fair amount of unexpected RL things got in the way of that. I'll post what I have so far. I can probably get through some more later tonight, but may have to hold off until Wednesday for the rest depending on schoolwork:

Pages 1-3

All I got out of the first two pages was "no u." VP's insistence that Shadow Dancer was talking about the playerlist is mildly disturbing. I see no reason to have thought Shadow Dancer didn't mean "setup." Minor scum read on VP for the possible intentional misrep. I also don't like that he said Concission seems serious about her reasoning, but votes her for it anyway. My gut isn't liking Fate, but I don't have anything solid to point to for that.

Pages 4-6

Post 92 is :goodposting: Simenon can join VP's ranks in my scum reads after this, especially since his only other post was an excessively weak vote (that he's kept despite all this useful information he seems to be saying we had) and this post just looks like mudslinging.

FoS Simenon

Feeling better about Fate for no good reason. Simenon's attempt to justify his position sounds pathetic. Would be voting him at this point. AGM seems to share my town/scum opinions. Cool. He seems fairly town at this point. I also think Shadow Dancer is town. His posts thus far have been mostly obvious or useless content, but it feels like he genuinely believes it to be useful. Jarti's distancing from his reads in his very first post is scummy. Am I the only one who finds it funny that Fate is singing "What is love?"? I can understand the Antihero hate at this point, but I currently have him at almost completely null...okay, never mind, he looks hella bad on page 6.

Page 7

Unnecessary meta post here from Simenon. Really not liking him at this point. Also not liking this post from Concission. It's just useless response after useless response. I sympathize with Crypto right now.

Vote would be (and already is) on Simenon up through page 7.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

What did we get out of that post except an excuse from you to fencesit?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

the most persuasive reason to vote antitown so far is this, by the way:

I think its the cute scum game where they keep their RVS vote for "mysterious" reasons instead of awkwardly trying to come up with a reason to push a mislynch or bus.

But since he only has 39 gameposts I'm not sure whether he could be aware enough of the meta that elusiveness is town (albeit a very outdated meta)

"Hmmm....well this could be scummy, but it could not be depending on how much Antitown knows."

You're right. I don't know how I mistook that for fencesitting.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I didn't drop anything. I decided not to waste time arguing it. Just like I'm going to ignore your response to my fencesitting point. I trust that people in this game are smart enough to draw their own conclusions from it without a useless argument cluttering up the thread.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

My vote is where I want it from what I've read. Still quite a bit to read though (starting back up on that tomorrow).

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Unvote

I have time to start catching up again. It would be nice if we didn't lynch someone while I'm still on page 10 please and thank you. Also wondering why Simenon wasn't even considered as a compromise lynch, yet everyone piles onto him when asked to vote their strongest suspects.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Vote: Simenon

Fine. You happy now?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Spoiler: catch-up post

In the interest of not cluttering the game with a massive wall of text on things that happened earlier in the game, I'm trying to cut down on the size this time. If I miss anything you want me to comment on, ask.

Pages 8-10

As of the series of posts starting here, LL officially confuses me, but I can

kind of

see his Jarti point. Ughhh, put LL in the tentative town reads column. Put Ythill as leaning scum too. I remember him being a heck of a lot more proactive as town. He seems too happy now to just throw out a bunch of reads and see where everyone else falls before committing to anything. Zoraster's first couple of posts are restoring my faith in this game. Congratuations on being the first one to sanely explain your reads and I actually agree with a decent fraction of them. Okay, this post confuses me. He claims each of the last two voters was likely scum, yet votes for the one with no votes that's likely more difficult to lynch instead of the player already with 3 votes. :/ Perhaps bussing? I don't know. VP-Ythill scum team doesn't really make much sense at this point tbh. Would definitely put VP as scum over Ythill.

Worth mentioning at this point that VP's posts thus far are a hell of a lot more meta-y than anything I remember seeing from VP-town. Also might be worth noting this post will likely be longer than I was hoping if the game continues like it has. I'm tryyyying to cut back. >.<

Pages 11-13

I'm liking Concission more after this post. This is an absolutely awful wagon hop. I would really love to break this post down actually, but I'm really trying not to make this post too big.

FoS

and massive scum points to Jarti. Lol. No, seriously, I'm currently laughing out loud. Thanks for that, Fate. <3 Gah, wall of death ;_; I know RC was one of the leading wagons at the end of the day, but I can wait for shorter posts to try to read him, right? >_< Perhaps I need to reconsider Shadow Dancer...I kind of wrote him off as town early for a perceived ignorance, but more and more of his posts are starting to look like this and I'm geting the feeling he *should* know better than to think he's still being useful. LL needs to stop making posts about his playstyle. They've ceased being useful and have very quickly fallen into excessive meta defense territory. Push LL back to a null read. Not really seeing the AGM hate.

Pages 14-18

If Simenon doesn't flip scum, hats will be eaten. Liking Ythill A LOT more of late. AND AS SOON AS I SAY I NEED TO LOOK BACK ON SHADOW DANCER, HE POPS IN WITH A GOOD POST. THIS. GAME. o.O I don't even think I have a comment on that. Wow... O.M.G. AM I ALLOWED TO HAVE AN OPINION ON SHADOW DANCER OR CONCISSION THAT DOESN'T CHANGE WITH THEIR NEXT POST. asjfsoijfsoidjfasofs Concission, if you have multiple personalities or something, tell your other one to post. Just for the record, I will be ignoring Simenon's posts from this point on in my read. I can go back and iso him for connections after he flips. LL pushes himself back to a town read. I just wish he would make shorter posts. :goodposting: The end of this post, along with the second Simenon post after it (yeah, I know I said I'd be ignoring him, but it stood out) look a lot like awkward distancing.

Pages 19-26

GLaDOS's first post has a definite sense of knowing too much. +Scum points. Useful? I like the Concission wagon that took off around here. Town points for Crypto for pure awesome. Sooooooo much this. (I thought EXACTLY the same thing in EXACTLY the same words before reading it.) I don't like the RC counterwagon that sprang up here. This goes interestingly with the end-of-day shenanigans where everyone suddenly piles onto Simenon when asked to vote their strongest scum read. Remind me to look into this later. Jarti's vote looks particularly bad to me....and since when does he have actual content to post? What the hell is going on with this game?

Pages 27-something

I'm kiiiiiind of burnt out reading the game and I joined somewhere around here anyway, so I'll comment on those some other time.

tl;dr, here are my reads (players within a group are in whatever order I think of them, which usually puts them almost in order of scumminess):

Scum

Jarti
Concission
Simenon

Scummy Side of Null

VP Baltar
GLaDOS (pre-post edit: move him to "town" because of vig claim)
zoraster

Null

AlmasterGM

Town Side of Null

RedCoyote
Shadow Dancer
Crypto
LuckayLuck

Town

Ythill
Fate

---

Now onto the new stuff:

I agree GLaDOS shouldn't have claimed, but not really much to be said about that. I also don't think our redeemed soul should claim. That just guarantees that scum can make the game mountainous by day 4 if they so choose.

Vote: Concission

for wagon purposes

For anyone that read the spoilered part of this post, I said I would look into the end-of-day shenanigans. That's coming in my next post (which will hopefully be within the next couple of hours, but may be held off until tonight if it takes too long).

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Promised post? What promised post?!

Got a bit caught up playing marathon games and with some RL things and then forgot about it. Tomorrow good for you guys? It's good for me.

Oh, and I hope you're happy.... (*points to avatar*)

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

VV's catchup post was okay but he's since disappeared.

Sorry about that. Personal-ish reasons you probably wouldn't believe if I told you. If I don't post after classes today,

I'll eat my hat

feel free to vote me for it or something.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Hai guys, I'm haiiiipperrrrrrr. But don't worry, I'm here to post!

Voting analysis is boooooorrrrring. And my predecessor ninja'd me on the votes I started with :< It made me saddd!

So I was reading and GUYS, WE'RE WAGONING THE WRONG PEOPLE. It's baaaaad. We should realllly be wagoning *dramatic music* THIS GUY! Let's enjoy his awesomesauce posting:

post #762 - I R IS GUNNA VOTE CHUUUUU
post #773 - ...unless other people start unvoting you first
post #774 - omgomgomg one of u iz scumz, but i don't wanna vote you guyz, k? (distancing with VP, say what?!)
[I'M SKIPPING SOME STUFF IN HERE BECAUSE I WANT TO, K?]
post #854 - SEE! HE FLIPPED TOWN! NOW UR SCUM! MAN, SUCKS FOR YOU! I WOULD HAVE UNVOTED IF HE'S FLIPPED SCUM! sheesh dude, what happened to you thinking he was scum? you were on his lynch wagon just yesterday! but nah, it's ttly cool you wanted to vote VP anyway at the start of the day. keep scummin' it up
post #927 - OH NOES, READING ALL THIS STUFF FROM PEOPLE I'M NOT VOTING ARE CONFUSING MY READS, SO I SHOULD UNVOTE AND VOTE SOMEONE ELSE

VOTE: JARTI

YES WE CAN. YES WE CAN

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

@VV: Most of your reads and comments were really outdated, you should really give some up-to-date- thoughts.

DUDE, I WAS HERE THE END OF YESTERDAY AND MISSED LIKE ONE PAGE IN THE MIDDLE, MAH READS ARE AS CURRENT AS THE WATER IN A RIVER

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

FATE, Y U NO LIKE JARTI LYNCH

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

DUDE, YOU HAVEN'T MENTIONED HIM SINCE WAY BACK HERE ASIDE FROM ONE COMMENT ABOUT "ZOMG IS THIS THE SAME JARTI?" HAVE YOU EVEN BEEN READING HIS POSTS?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Unvote.Vote:Jarti

I think this vote just got a lot less sexy. I'll reread jarti later on and try to get a handle on things....

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Before I come to a decision on this, Jarti, are you an alt?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

@Jarti
I asked if you were an alt because there was something I saw in your iso that would make more sense if you were. I have since managed to forget what that something was. Go me.

In the meantime, RC-wagon is probably just a distraction and Fate-wagon is downright stupid. AGM-wagon << Concission wagon and Jarti-wagon isn't happening I guess. Whatever.

Vote: AlmasterGM

.

Maybe I'll post more when I'm not busy making myself miserable. But damn, I'm really good at that so it may be a while.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Is RedCoyote not still voting you? Well, whatever.

Your argument for Jarti-town is entirely unconvincing. I see no reason to favor "town seeing stupid things that aren't there" over "scum making up stupid things that aren't there" as an explanation for Jarti's case (that was your defense of him, right?). No matter though. I'm not going to argue with my two strongest town reads to derail a perfectly good wagon on someone I don't have much of a read on anyway. If Jarti is scum, he'll find a way to convince us eventually.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Votes: Votes must be bold, and be on the start of a new line.

A vote inside a paragraph doesn't count.

Unvotes are nice but not necessary.

Don't play 'vote tricks'

– whether you voted for someone or not is ultimately for me to decide, not you.

"Don't play vote tricks, but if you do want to, here's how you can." Am I reading that correctly?

Isn't that the title of OJ Simpson's book?

My vote wasn't meant to be a trick vote, but it apparently fooled everyone but AGM. I really question the wisdom of a rule set that actively discourages voting gambits, while passively encouraging them.

I was happy to vote AGM for wagoning purposes, but I don't really feel comfortable hammering him tbh, especially now that the last two votes on him were hella shady (most notably Concission's "gee, I just don't know who to suspect anymore. :bashful face: vote: AGM" post). Concission wagon is 10x better than an AGM wagon right now.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I still think that rule hurts more than it helps. What if this had been 3p lylo and a vote didn't count because it wasn't at the start of a line? Is that really how games should be won and lost?

Anyway, if people are about to start jumping off of AGM, now would be the perfect time to get a better wagon going.

Unvote, vote: Concission

If you need a reason, look no farther than here. If you need anything more than that, there are 42 pages worth of Concission-scum for you to read. Get on it.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Jarti's point is good if it's true, but aside from that, SD's hop wasn't anywhere near as scummy as Concission's. Am I missing something obvious here?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

In the process of looking through votes from today. Should be done within the hour if I don't get massively distracted. Don't do anything stupid without me.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Okay, something realllly fishy is going on here. I read Concission in iso and I read (well, most of...) Shadow Dancer in iso. Concission's was easy to read. It fits on one page. It's a nice little exercise. I still have no idea how people consider Shadow Dancer scummier. There is no way in hell we start the day with a wagon on Concission, have everyone suddenly switch to AGM, and then everyone switch to SD just as suddenly.

It makes no sense

.

Here's a quick rundown of votes cast today:

Spoiler: Votes

Format: Post #whatever - Player1 unvotes Player 2 {new # of votes on player 2} votes Player 3 {new # of votes on Player 3} (comments)
A lot of the early votes might have no comments, since they all seem to just be carried over from yesterday.
Post #809 - Simenon votes Concission {1}
Post #812 - Crypto votes Concission {2}
Post #815 - LL votes Jarti {1}
Post #818 - GLaDOS votes RC {1}
Post #819 - Fate votes RC {2}
Post #824 - Fate unvotes RC {1} votes LL {1} (seemingly for being wrong about GLaDOS)
Post #825 - RC votes Fate {1} (because...umm...he thinks Fate picked up on Ythill being tracker? Looking at it again, his "There are a couple of other people I think may have picked up on it as well, but I think they're much more townie sounding than Fate has been." actually sounds a bit odd, but I'm not so interested in RC right now.)
Post #829 - VP votes Concission {3}
Post #831 - Concission votes VP {1}
Post #843 - VV votes Concission {4}
Post #844 - Crypto unvotes Concission {3} votes VP {2} (later explains this as trying to get a reaction)
Post #846 - Simenon unvotes Concission {2} votes LL {1} (reason: "LL's case against GLADOS and Jarti looks particularly ridiculous now, and his posts have been so blatant in their scummy rhetoric that I simply can't believe he's town.")
Post #848 - Jarti votes VP {3}
-Simenon is killed-
Post #857 - Fate unvotes LL {0} votes RC {2} (for bad vote on himself; +lolpoints for supplying valid reasons for voting himself)

Okay, I'm actually kind of falling asleep right now. I haven't gotten to anything useful yet as far as votes are concerned....maybe after a nap? If you haven't actually read what's in the spoiler yet, you really don't have to. It turns out I probably could have started around where I left off and not missed anything.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Leaning the former. Hoping sorting through votes will reveal something (I'm working on it!)

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

EBWOP: Well, I should word that better. I would be surprised if scum were "driving things," per se. I do expect to see scum somewhere along the lines jumping at the opportunity to help sway wagons in a different direction a bit. I actually think the SD wagon might be primarily town-driven, just thinking about how it formed, but that just makes the formation of the AGM wagon even more questionable, if half the players on it didn't really care so much about it.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Continuing from where I left off:

Spoiler: More Votes

Post #862 - AGM votes LL {1} (Another suspicion carried over from previous day, but with added "He was Ythill and Simeon's primary suspect as well." Not quite sure what to make of the appeal to (dead) authority. Probably null.)
Post #871 - Crypto unvotes VP {2} votes Concission {3} (This is *probably* where the Concission wagon takes off (and I'll probably remove this comment if I see later stuff that says otherwise).)
Post #927 - Jarti unvotes VP {1} votes Concission {4} (I pointed out this post earlier, but I'm going to mention again that it's realllly worth looking at. The first line is just a complete cop-out and if you look a bit closer at the timing, his vote on VP came just 4 votes after Crypto's vote on VP, when VP was quickly becoming a viable lynch choice and his unvote of VP and switch to Concission comes in his first post since Crypto did exactly the same thing. Not sure what this points to about Concission, but I would say that anyone with a town read on Jarti should had better have a pretty damned good reason.)
Post #929 - Fate unvotes RC {1} votes AGM {1} (Fate has been completely in his own world the entire day to the extent that I'm not even sure he realizes half the players exist. I'm only familiar with Fate's play from parts of games I've read (I've never played with him), so I'm not sure if this is usual for him. ++scum points for Fate.)
Post #930 - Concission unvotes VP {0} votes zoraster {1} (zoraster? Huh? Where did that vote come from? This post very much reads as disheartened scum making a last ditch effort to me after the wagon he was on just died and he seems the likely lynch choice.)
Post #933 - zoraster votes AGM {2} (new wagon starting to take off; if there's any sort of scum involvement in moving the wagon from Concission to AGM, I'd expect to see it around here.)
Post #938 - AGM unvotes LL {0} votes zoraster {2}
Post #947 - VP unvotes Concission {3} votes AGM {3} (votes AGM so AGM will answer questions; interesting though that he decides to switch off of a wagon on one player he called scummy to a wagon on another player he called scummy that had fewer votes. It also goes along well with what I said two comments ago about expecting this to be around where scum would start pushing for a new wagon)
Post #948 - SD votes RC {2} (interesting he comments on the dying Concission wagon, but not the forming AGM wagon. Might be interesting to consider with his wagon hop later on)
Post #959 - VV unvotes Concission {2} votes Jarti {2} (ummm...can we just pretend I was high when I made this post and move on? >.>)
Post #968 - Concission unvotes zoraster {1} votes Jarti {3} (Trying to get a vote to stick? I don't know. This would be a hell of a strange time to bus and I feel at the moment like Concission is the more likely of the two to be scum. Jarti's defense of my vote from the previous post did kind of make sense. *note to self to figure out what the hell is going on with post #927*)
Post #982 - Jarti unvotes Concission {1} votes Fate {2} (Can't say I see this vote at all, but I don't know. Interesting that Fate later says Jarti is town for this.)
Post #991 - Fate unvotes AGM {2} votes LL {1} (From this post: "FINE. ILL VOTE WITH AGMSCUM ONTO LL. IF THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET MOMENTUM SO BE IT". Willing to consider the possibility I was wrong on Fate. I need to go back and check why I thought he was so town day 1.)
Post #992 - Fate unvotes LL {0} votes AGM {3} (Realizes there weren't actually any votes on LL)
Post #994 - Crypto unvotes Concission {0} votes AGM {4}

Okay, this is getting kind of tedious, so I'm stopping for now and resuming later. Where I left off is where all votes are off Concission and the wagon on AGM is really getting going (at 4 votes). The big thing this has shown me is that I really should reread Fate. Concission still looks like scum and twice as much so if Fate is scum with her (I probably referred to Concission as a he in the rest of the post, but I'm too lazy to go back and fix that). It would also resolve the Jarti-Concission issue in my head, since Fate-scum very likely means Jarti-town with his recent "NO, JARTI IS STUPID, HE'S OBVOBVOBVOBVOBVTOWN" defense.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Posting from class. Didn't realize the deadline was so close. Willing to accept that a Concission lynch won't happen today. I'm kind of meh on either of our current lynch choices, but I don't exactly have a town read on either at this point and would hammer either lynch if necessary.

The flips of SD and AGM should break this game open.

Who's scum if both are town?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Okay, let's say *one* of them isn't scum. Which of them is it and who else is scum?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Additionally, I am not amused how players are trying to treat this game as if I only have two options.

THANK YOU

Both wagons right now are *decent* lynches in that neither player is exactly pro-town to me right now. Neither lynch is a particularly good lynch to me, considering I don't find either particularly scummy.

Even better, GLaDOS has given us exactly the better wagon we need. I've accepted that we don't have enough support for a Concission lynch, but I'll be damned if we can't find enough players willing to vote Fate right now. We have 31 and a half hours to lynch. With even average activity, that's plenty of goddamn time for enough players to move their votes.

Vote: Fate

That's 2. RedCoyote, AGM, you've both expressed recent suspicion of Fate. Concission, you've already said you don't like either wagon. zoraster, I have no idea what you think of Fate because you've never told us. Jarti, you said Fate was likely scum.

We now have 5 players that have called Fate scum today. Five. And we have at least one player outside of that group that has said he doesn't like either current wagon. We only need 6 votes to lynch and 5 could very well be enough for plurality at deadline. "Well, we should probably lynch one of the two leading wagons" is no excuse at this juncture.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

How many players do we need to come in and say "gee, well, I guess if it has to be one of these two, it can be one of these two..." before we ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

We have one, two, THREE players in the last 4 pages alone who have done that. THREE. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PLAYERS ARE ALIVE RIGHT NOW? TWELVE. 25% OF THE GODDAMN PLAYER LIST AT A MINIMUM IS ONLY LOOKING AT ONE OF THESE TWO LYNCHES BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE THE ONLY CHOICE. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE ELSE?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'll be sort of around for the next few hours, gone for most of the afternoon/evening, and then around again tomorrow morning/afternoon up until deadline unless something crazy happens. I can change my vote

if necessary

, but damn it, there is something terribly wrong if I need to change my vote before deadline.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Concission still looks like scum and twice as much so if Fate is scum with her

^ This is worth pointing saying again.

Fate scum implies Concission scum.

And I changed my mind about the next few hours. I'll be asleep for the next hour and a half, after which I will be at class. And then repeat that cycle.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

AND PRETEND THE WORD "POINTING" ISN'T THERE

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

good god. why are you making life difficult?

gee. I get to pick from two "Zoraster Approved" lynches. Wonderful.

What about this is so difficult? There is still plenty of time until deadline to have people move their votes.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

There's no reason we shouldn't have enough players around in the final 26 hours before deadline to get a different lynch to happen. We've had enough players express interest in this lynch that we

know

there are enough players out there to make this lynch happen. With deadline coming up, players should be checking this thread more often if at all possible. There's no reason we can't get 5 or 6 votes in 26 hours.

So zoraster, what do

you

think of Fate?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

RC and GLaDOS have specificaly said they prefer a Fate lynch. AGM gave a scum list here that included Fate, but not SD. I would rather a Fate lynch. Concission has expressed suspicion of Fate and has said that he doesn't find either lynch candidate particularly scummy Jarti was voting Fate earlier, but I don't know who he finds scummiest right now. At a minimum, there are 5 players I would say prefer a Fate lynch to either of the two lynches.

Pre-post Edit: How is lynching someone that has that much suspicion on him a

mistake

?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Scum ready to lynch anyone already had plenty of opportunity to pile onto SD or AGM, unless both of them are scum (hint: I reallly doubt it). I'm looking now at players that have said Fate is scum, but instead piled onto SD or AGM.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

To use your wording, "mutual agreement" is on the SD-AGM dichotomy. I'm trying to get us the hell out of that dichotomy.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Where's the opposition to these wagons resulting in a lynch? Pretty much everyone (except GLaDOS) has said they were find with lynching one of those players. Yeah, the lynch hasn't happened yet, but do you really expect a town in current site meta to agree on which of two players to lynch more than a few days before deadline?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'm back. Should have access for the next few hours, as well as tomorrow afternoon (and morning if I'm awake).

@VP
In my experience, having two popular wagons automatically means you won't get a lynch until close to deadline. Players on either wagon refuse to switch, in the hopes the wagon will shift in their favor, and players off the wagon are hesitant to vote for someone that isn't their top suspect. What have you seen here that's any different?

@AGM
You posted this yesterday. Do you still stand by that list?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I know we don't have the time to switch wagons right now.

Yes we do ;_;

The problem isn't that we don't have time. The problem is that everyone keeps saying we don't have time. If those people would put there votes where their mouths were instead of complaining about "OH NOES THE DEADLINE IS COMING UP", there would be

plenty

of time.

Pre-post edit: I thought this submitted 20 minutes ago, but it got ninja'd and I wasn't watching >.<

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

SD

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

The fact that we couldn't get a single person to switch votes with 36 hours left before deadline to a wagon that at least 5 people favored is just sad.

Vote: Shadow Dancer

Pretty sure that's the hammer. If I die tonight, take another look at a Concission-Fate pairing please.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Vote: Fate

. This should have happened yesterday. Same can be said about Concission, but too many players seem to be willing to give her a free pass.

In the meantime, I want an ordered list of suspicions from SD.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Also, I call complete bullshit on AGM's voting and then leaving for five days of V/LA.

Yeah, seriously, how dare he leave for 5 days. I can't even think of a town motivation for his priorities.

He came around to being both high-content and high-volume and he broadcasted in a townie sort of

When did this happen?

someone do the lylo math please

Lylo is in a long time from now. We still have 11 players alive.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Also, I call complete bullshit on AGM's voting and then leaving for five days of V/LA.

Yeah, seriously, how dare he leave for 5 days. I can't even think of a town motivation for his priorities.

Is this sarcasm?

Yes.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I don't need RC-scum for you-scum to make sense. In fact, I think RC is town. The idea of you-scum started out when I actually bothered to look at day 2 in detail (here) and GLaDOS getting reactions out of you saved me the time of having to look back at day 1. Heck, if SD flips scum, SD-Fate-Concission wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Unvote

Fine, I'll look back at day 1. You happy? -_-

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'm such a sucker for one-on-one chats....

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I've discovered I hate rereading this game. Did someone day "only got through reading half of day 1"? I can.

Things I've noticed this time around:

• While I found both VPB and Concission somewhat scummy upon reread, they wouldn't make any sense as scum together.
• Fate defended SD pretty early (around page 10, I think). Could be useful depending on SD's flip (I'll also be looking for where exactly Fate's read on him changed and why).
• Fate's early day 1 play was scummy. His day 2 play was definitely scummy. I'm not sure where in-between there I decided he was town.
• Jarti is town. I know I'd already started coming around to that by the end of day 2, but I'm a lot more confident on that now.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

And I'm the one that has no idea what's going on.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Vote: VP Baltar

Wow. Do I even need to explain this one?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'm debating that. However, the longer he takes to post his post-lynch wrap up, the more I am going to think that's the case.

(that Shadow Dancer is scum)

So you're seriously considering that Shadow Dancer is scum. You see zoraster's claim at 11:09:16am EST. You're still talking to him

and waiting for a counter-claim

at 11:34:42am. You spent 25 minutes arguing about "lol y wud u claim if u wer actually redeemed soul?" and then intended to leave him at L-1 with someone you're seriously considering as scum having a chance to hammer with no downside to him if he is.

I'm calling bs on that. Barring someone else coming in and counterclaiming redeemed soul, that was you looking to get confirmed town lynched.

This also means Shadow Dancer is probably scum.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Unvote

Huh...could've sworn you were voting zoraster...

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

OMG HAMMERING IS SCUMMY

You're better than THAT VP. Why wasn't it scummy until just now?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Are YOU reading the game? It wasn't exactly a secret I thought SD was scummier than AGM. You are soooo scummy for not reading the thread.


Pre-post edit: Ummm....do you know how this game works?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

suggested reading

What the hell did you think the redeemed soul did?! And the impatient vigilante? Holy shit, dude.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

You've been here all game, right? And you didn't...

What the...

Brb facepalming

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

3) Town players are more likely to be thinking about how this setup can best be approached in the early stages of the game.

So VP, what happened to reading the setup?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

hahahhahaha

The only thing preventing me from voting you right now is that I almost can't believe you would be this stupid as scum. This is just so lulzily awful.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I don't get it, have you not looked back at the first few pages...ever?! That was discussed on page 3

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

/prod received

I have a fair amount of school work to catch up on at the moment, so nothing useful from me until tomorrow.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'm back!

VP's recent posting doesn't really make sense from scum. Or at least isn't scummy. One of the two.

Fate....is officially confusing me now. (I finished reading day 1, btw). I originally thought he was town, saw his day 2 play and thought he was scum, read his day 3 posts and thought he sounded ridiculously genuine, but now that I've looked back at day 1, I honestly have no idea why I thought he was town in the first place. I already commented on his first half of day 1 and his second half of day 1 was completely weak.

And here I am probably back to Concission-Fate-? SD would fit nicely there with Fate going hardcore to get AGM lynched day 2, but I don't know.

Pre-post Edit: Did I really get ninja'd by a post from an hour ago? I forgot about this post for longer than I thought...

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

OK, catching up now.

You read slowly, dude.

And while I'm pissed at something else anyway, Fate what the hell did you mean by this? If you want to accuse me of lurking, man up and fucking call me on it. None of this "OH, TEEHEE, LOOK AT THAT NOOB WITH HIS SILLY REAL LIFE STUFF GETTING IN THE WAY, I'M SO SEXY AND AWESOME BECAUSE MY NAME IS FATE AND I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT FATE" shit.

Limited access this weekend because I'm addicted to marathon games and there isn't much to talk about in this game anyway.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

the deadline is tomorrow.

Well, now I feel bad for lurking. >_>

SD's recent posts are reading town to me tbh. I'm not a huge fan of VPB lynch and definitely not of the RC lynch. VPB lynch wouldn't be terrible, but would almost require both of my top scum reads to be wrong (VPB-scum doesn't make sense to me with either Fate or Concission). So I DON"T KNOW. AGM at the very least could make sense with Concission. When my current marathon game(s) finish, I'll figure something out.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

One of my reads is terribly terribly wrong. I don't know which, but one of them is.

I iso'd AGM and just kind of looked around for key people I've been considering as possible scum. He would make enough sense as scum with VPB or with Concission, but not with Fate (no, really?). However, early game interactions between VPB and Concission make no sense with them as scum buddies. If SD is town, that practically eliminates any scum team from even remotely making sense to me. So either I'm wrong about SD now or I'm wrong about...I don't know who, but someone I've been reading as town.

For what it's worth, AGM looks hella bad in iso, but reading his posts in context has never really pinged my scumdar much.

Conclusion: hell if I know. Is there still support for a Fate wagon?

Maybe I'm wrong on LL? Or someone? We'll see precious, we'll see...

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

That means that

I believe we cannot lynch RedCoyote or AlmasterGM today.

To a lesser extent, I don't think we should lynch somebody who voted for Shadow Dancer (which happens to include RedCoyote & Almaster, as well as myself, Concission, and Vigilante).

Who are your top 2 choices of players off the SD wagon?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Oh, and I'm pissed at VV too. Because he doesn't have a pair.

For what? Not voting? Seems like a lot to lose my gender status over, but if that's the way it is, I guess I should make sure the site reflects that.




<------ There. Is that better?



Fate lynch is more or less impossible at this point, given that no one off the wagon is likely to move onto the wagon, but hell if that's gonna stop me when I'll be on to change my vote if necessary anyway.

Vote: Fate

Fate > AGM > RC

and of course there

nooooooo

possible way Concission is scum, right? It just wouldn't make any sense for someone THAT scummy to be anything but town! THIS. GAME.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

[...some text...]

Vote: Fate

Fate > AGM > RC
[...some more text...]

We need more massive dayvig...

Says the guy with his reads on backwards.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I actually, to the point I've read on the thread (which would be like page 32 or something along those lines), have a town read on Fate.

You're falling into the same trap I did my first time through the thread. Ignore all the rhetoric and all the "LOLOL LOOK AT ME POSTING ALL THIS STUPID STUFF IN CAPS THAT SCUM WOULD NEVER POST, I'M SO OBV-TOWN."

His early day 1 is a mixture of useless "LOLOL I"M FATE SO I GET TO MAKE USELESS LOLPOSTS", throwing around reads that change every other post, and voting and unvoting people without any sort of push to get anyone else onto his supposed scum reads apart from "LOLOL YOU GUYS ARE VOTING THE WRONG PERSON".

His late day 1 consists of hopping around from wagon to wagon with no content.

If you don't mind spoilers, his day 2 is worse than his day 1. Yarly.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

This game indeed, if you think Concission is scum...then VOTE FOR CONCISSION. Or at least put him on your scumlist. Setting up an easy lynch, anyone?

I'VE BEEN CALLING HIM SCUM SINCE GOD KNOWS WHEN. RTFT

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

WAIT, WTF

Okay, we're not lynching Fate today, sorry guys. He's probrably town. I'm a little more conflicted on VPB, but I still won't lynch him today.

Neutral:
Fate (I'm so divided on Fate it's not even funny, really. I'm leaning town at the moment, though.)
VPB (town-ish, more like it)

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

VV, I know. I'm second-guessing my reads enough as it is, though. I don't really need you to put fuel in the fire.

YOU'RE KIDDING, RIGHT? "NO, DON'T GIVE ME LOGIC, I CAN'T HANDLE IT. I WANT TO SIT BACK ON MY REASONLESS READS THAT I'M GOING TO CONTRADICT LATER IN MY POST."

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

So let me get this straight. Your reads are:

Town: the confirmed town guy that you never doubted for a second

Scum: the guy getting replaced that everyone's ignoring and someone with no votes on him

Neutral: EVERYONE ELSE

BULLSHIT. I better have had a damned good reason for thinking Jarti was town.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Yeesh, I don't even get you anymore.

"Oh, golly me, I don't understand you anymore!11!!!!1!" If you think I haven't been calling Concission scum, there's no way you've even come close to finishing reading the thread, in which case this is just bullshit.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

AND IT GETS BETTER

This game indeed, if you think Concission is scum...then VOTE FOR CONCISSION.

So which of your scum reads are you voting?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Do you think I'm scum with Concission? If you say "yes", it had better come with a "but i haz only is readed up to page 7"

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

"LOLOL LOOK AT ME POSTING ALL THIS STUPID STUFF IN CAPS THAT SCUM WOULD NEVER POST, I'M SO OBV-TOWN..

This game indeed, if you think Concission is scum...then VOTE FOR CONCISSION. Or at least put him on your scumlist. Setting up an easy lynch, anyone?

I'VE BEEN CALLING HIM SCUM SINCE GOD KNOWS WHEN. RTFT

WAIT, WTF

Okay, we're not lynching Fate today, sorry guys. He's probrably town. I'm a little more conflicted on VPB, but I still won't lynch him today.

Neutral:
Fate (I'm so divided on Fate it's not even funny, really. I'm leaning town at the moment, though.)
VPB (town-ish, more like it)

Neutral: EVERYONE ELSE

BULLSHIT. I better have had a damned good reason for thinking Jarti was town.

AND IT GETS BETTER

I find this amusing and scummy at the same time.

Yes, Fate, it's

exactly

the same thing.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Fate > AGM > RC was me ordering the wagons. If you think I have RC and AGM that high up on my scum list, you haven't been reading the thread at all.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

>I don't have the time to reread and put my reads in the right place! We have either 3 or 2 hours to deadline- my Internet's too crappy to check - yet you expect me to have solid reads? It took me enough time to do read the thread and do that piece of crap - yes, I admit it's bullshit. Several times in fact. Seems you were a bit busy to notice it, isn't it?

How dare I expect you to have reads 32 pages into a thread? How silly of me! How many pages should I wait for you to read before you can have actual reads?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

>I'd vote for you, but again, deadline. There's no way a wagon on you would build now - but I wish it could.

Oh, I see. I should be voting Concission 2 hours before deadline when no one else is interested in his lynch, but you can't vote your scum reads 2 hours before deadline because neither lynch would go through. Got it.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

>I don't have the time to reread and put my reads in the right place! We have either 3 or 2 hours to deadline- my Internet's too crappy to check - yet you expect me to have solid reads? It took me enough time to do read the thread and do that piece of crap - yes, I admit it's bullshit. Several times in fact. Seems you were a bit busy to notice it, isn't it?

Calling it bullshit doesn't change the fact that it is.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Should I be voting for every scum read I have

at the same time

? I'm pushing the scum read that, oh, I don't know, actually stands a chance in hell of being lynched today.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

O_o VV looks really worse now.

For what? I don't care if you're dead in 2 hours, if your answer is "for all that bullshit the person who hasn't read the game was saying!", just go crawl back into your guillotine.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

yes, VV, I use it for both sexes, but for some reason I thought you were a guy, sorry

I am. >_> I changed my gender to female to indicate that I apparently didn't have balls (if you can't have fun with a game, why play, right?). Didn't mean to seem offended.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

In case I die tonight, don't ANYONE forget this.

Is there even a significance to that quote?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Also, afk for about 15 minutes. Don't think I disappeared if you say something and I don't respond in under 2 minutes.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

ooooo you scared?

I forgot Zoraster was confirmed town, there's now ay you'll kill me tonight.


WHICH MEANS HEHAEHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

YOU SCARED ARENT YOU?

That didn't answer my question at all.

/afk

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

OH LOOK WHO POSTED BEFORE HE LEFT BECAUSE HE DIDNT WANT TO BE SEEN AS RUNNIN AWAY











HEH

HE

AH

HAHAHEHEAA

You're kidding, right?

So allow me to summarize your views on me this game:

I was town up until halfway through today. At that point, you decided I was scum dependent on an SD scum flip. You recently decided SD was 100% town and now suddenly everything I do is scummy. Did I get that right?

So why is everything I do suddenly scummy? Is it perhaps because you need a reason to suspect me when SD flips town? And I honestly don't get what sort of connection you're seeing between me and SD. I'm pretty sure that I could have AT ANY POINT near the day 3 deadline voted for AGM and gotten him lynched over SD. If SD is scum, you're saying I threw away a mislynch for town-cred I wouldn't even get until 2 days later because of delayed flips!

Pre-post edit: Concission wagon is also very acceptable to me....except I don't think we have enough people around for it with an hour left until deadline.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

EBWOP: day 2 deadline

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Vote: Concission

Fuck yeah!

Pre-post Edit: Well I don't want to out myself as scum....

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

If this wagon was able to build up so fast, why was no one interested in it until now?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

SD, why all the vote switching?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

:HAPPY:

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Its scum intent and mindset REEKing in those posts. I had forgotten guillitone players could vote, VP had, etc.

BUt SCUM? Oh they were just WAITING to make use.

Its probably black in white in the scum qt as a plan:

"If youre on the guillitone, lurk like hell and hammer whenever possible. THen WIFOM it up. GOGO GUYS"

I still maintain my RC scum read, doubt that'll ever go through.

AGM is definitely wrongtown mcdumbbutt.

Concission's alignment TBD, not sure why the hell SD scum flip makes him look any better.

Wait, so you're saying I'm scum

for knowing a game mechanic that was specifically discussed during the game

? After I'd been rereading the start of day 1 less than 2 days beforehand? No wonder you didn't respond when I implicitly asked about it here. You were there 2 minutes earlier responding to everything within a few minutes of it being said and suddenly you weren't interested in talking, huh?

I'll sort through the shit storm of SD WIFOM later, but I sure as hell remember which wagon he tried to stop at all costs.

Vote: Fate

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Warning: wall of text incoming.

Okay, time to bite into the delicious slice of WIFOM pie:

Shadow Dancer's main content post on guillotine contained the following reads:

Scum team: AGM + RC: Fate already mentioned a million more damn good bloody reasons than I would ever care to do for even the slowest of you to get bith the individual scumminesses of those two as well as the obvious connection.

Third scum: Whaddafuk do I know. Some one along Maem/LL/Conc (in that order of likelihood).

Somewhat townsomethingelish: VV, Crypto

sure town: Baltar, Fate - that being said - listen to Fate - he actually has something to say. Ignore Baltar. He is posting about 50% BS.

confirmed town (obviously): Zor.

We'll start with the obvious. Most natural stance here for scum is to split up one's buddies. The first logical place to look for that would be in AGM/RC. I'm going to discount the possibility of RC-scum entirely for now and explain why later (not that anyone can't figure it out). That would, theoretically at least, imply AGM-scum. However, I'm really not so sure of that. As much as scum in his position would love to just throw down some insta-WIFOM, he was constrained quite a bit by his previous reads. RC and AGM were his two big scum reads from earlier on and to suddenly drop either of them would look shady. I think it's actually less likely to find one of his buddies in this group and more likely to find one in his next group, i.e. his "Third scum" group of Mae, LL, and Concission. Mae replaced Jarti, LL and Concission are themselves, simply because it would be much easier to throw a buddy onto that list without it being questioned.

Back in post #1048, SD said the following:

So it's a stupid me waggon versus another lame arse Conc waggon now? No, thank you...

Important thing to note here, of course, is his stance on Concission. He's taken the stance that Concission is town. Where does that read change?

Well, aside from one post in which he responds to one of Concission's posts, SD doesn't mention Concission again until post #1283, in which he calls Concission's vote fishy

after

majority had been reached on him. Let's check out Concission's votes and posts regarding the wagons around that time. He only had two posts that really addressed the issue anyway:

Spoiler: Concission posts

First we have post #1217, in which we get the following nice bit of waffling from Concission:

At this point, I don't want an AGM lynch but I don't particular think SD is super scummy either. I don't see what the rush is and why people are putting off themselves just because they are "waiting for Conc to vote".

Comes the deadline I'll vote SD.

Reads a lot to me like someone trying to stay as much out of the issue as possible. Especially so with the second sentence in his first paragraph. It sounds like he's trying to push us to lynch without him having to give input. He really set himself up here to waffle later if necessary. He throws down middling reads on each of the two major wagons and says he'll vote SD come deadline, but encourages everyone else to consider other possibilities, while not supplying any other possibilities himself and not voting anyone else (he wasn't voting at this point). Really reads as scum looking to subtly discourage the wagon on his buddy without being tied to the wagon dying.

His other post regarding the major wagons was hisvote:

I'd prefer an SD lynch
Vote:Shadow Dancer
Come on, we need 1 more vote.

He suddenly sounds excited about an SD lynch for someone who didn't think SD is super scummy. The time before deadline is an awfully strange time to suddenly decide to be excited about a lynch you were meh on just one iso post earlier.

Is it a coincidence that Concission and Shadow Dancer both seemingly decide the other are scummy at the very same time and that that time is right as Shadow Dancer is about to be lynched?

I'm not interested in spending all day on this post, so I'll leave possible analysis of his positions on LL/Maemuki until later or for someone else and continue on the Concission train of thought here.

We come back to day 3 now with Shadow Dancer on guillotine. He parks his vote on RC the first time he says anything about the game and sticks with that vote most of the day. The real fun happens when he decides to change that vote:

Anyway, this gives me the freedom to try and
UNVOTE. VOTE AGM
Counterwaggon gogogogo!

Let's check out the vote count at that point:

Vote Count #55.5

Fate: AlmasterGM, LuckayLuck, RedCoyote, Vigilante Ventriloquist (L-2)
RedCoyote: Fate,

cypto

, Shadow Dancer, VP Baltar
AlmasterGM: zoraster
VP Baltar: Concission
Concission: crypto

Not voting:

Maemuki

The only change since the previous vote count is that crypto had suddenly left RC in order to vote Concission. Now, it looked until this point as though RC would be lynched. He was, with no vote changes, the lynch at deadline, and it was unlikely for votes to move anywhere else. I mentioned this conclusion earlier and I probably don't really need to point this out, but that almost certainly means RC is town. SD stayed on the wagon up until the point it was no longer likely to end in lynch. There was really no benefit for him to do that in his situation if RC is scum. It's still very odd that he would change his vote though. Why would he bother? I can think of a few good reasons here.

1. He was afraid of RC getting too much town cred for his staying on the wagon, panicked, and jumped off.
2. He was afraid of the Fate-scum-wagon having the most votes and decided to try to get a new wagon going that he thought could get support. Note that this would suggest pretty strongly that AGM is town, making it even more likely my original assumption that SD put one of his buddies in his "Third scum" category was correct.
3. He was afraid of crypto's hop onto Concission.

The first two conclusions here are definitely the most solid possibilities, but I do think the third carries some weight, especially given his later wagon hops. More on that to come.

Fate's post immediately following SD's vote switch is interesting though:

Shadow: ... you idiot. Now I'll lynched come deadline since I've reached L-2 first.

That doesn't sound like a player talking to a town read to me. It sounds A LOT like scum getting pissed at a buddy that did something stupid. You remember how Fate defended SD day 1? You remember how Fate went for the AGM wagon over the SD wagon day 2? Makes sense, doesn't it?

Anyway, Fate then flails wildly to get someone else lynched. Not necessarily scummy, considering he was up for lynch if not, but it's interesting how SD/Fate form a voting block here. SD voted AGM, then Fate hopped on. Then Fate goes for Concission, immediately after which Shadow Dancer votes for Concission. Of course, after all this, we have Fate's version of Concission's suddenly-excited post when he votes SD:

Because he's never been here and he's never SAID scummy shit that wold incite a rage-wagon on him.

All it took was crypto's refusal to compromise.

AMERICA.

FUCK YEAH?>

He's suddenly decided Concission is scum that's just been lurking. I could've sworn he made no mention of Concission being scum earlier (I don't really care to check right now, so correct me if I'm wrong on that). Why the change of opinion? Scum busing their lurking member to keep their active member alive, perhaps?

Of course, Shadow Dancer throws in one more wagon hop for good measure:

OK... Let's make a final approach.
Unvote. Vote AGM

So why the final wagon hop?

Well, let's check the vote count:

Vote Count #56

Concission: crypto, Fate, Vigilante Ventriloquist, Shadow Dancer, Maemuki (L-1!)

Fate: AlmasterGM, LuckayLuck, RedCoyote,

Vigilante Ventriloquist

AlmasterGM: zoraster,

Shadow Dancer

,

Fate

RedCoyote:

Fate

,

cypto

,

Shadow Dancer

, VP Baltar
VP Baltar: Concission

Not voting:

Maemuki

The only thing that had changed since his vote was that Maemuki had also voted Concission, bringing him 2 votes ahead of Fate. That is to say, because of Maemuki's vote, he could safely unvote Concission and still have enough leeway that Fate wouldn't be lynched by a single unvote.

Let's look slightly deeper though. Why bother switching wagons now? It was painfully clear that his vote on AGM was meaningless. My opinion is that he was trying to set up AGM here to be an easy mislynch later on. It would be such a simple WIFOM trick: make us think he was trying to bus at the last second to buy town cred for a buddy. Very open to speculation, of course, but it looks like a pretty solid possibility to me.

Whew, that was a long post! (Might actually be the longest post I've ever written...)

Here's the tl;dr for those of you that are just going to skim it:
1. Concission/Equinox is probably scum.
2. Fate is probably our third scum.
3. If you want the stunning reasoning that led to these results, read the rest of the post! (It's not thaaaat painful to read...)

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Did you actually read my post? If so, what about it do you disagree with (besides the conclusion )?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

No reason he wouldn't if context called for it.

Do whatever you're doing, drink your coffee, then kill yourself reading the post. I would definitely say there was enough justification in the game state at that point for him to bus Concission.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Oh, you said when you DON'T feel like killing yourself while reading it. I didn't mean to tell you to kill yourself >.>

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I thought I wrote more about Concission at the end than I actually did. That's what I get for trying to write long posts on a messed-up sleep cycle, I guess.

I still think it makes sense though for Concission to be scum. There are clear enough scummections between each pairing for an SD-Fate-Concission team to make sense on that level and the bussing of Concission makes sense as the only way to save Fate - throw lurker-buddy under the bus to keep active-buddy from getting lynched.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Yeah, but most people had a concission town read while Fate has been knock knock knocking on heaven's door for awhile now.

You do have a point with that. I'm not sure I'm thinking clearly enough to sort it out now, but everything else about it seems to fit together so perfectly.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

VV's latest post of "LEMMETAKE ADVANTAGE FO A NONFLIPPED EQUINOX AND TIE HIM TO FATE TEHHEHEHE" shows lack of seeing things as they are and an incentive to take advantage of how things COULD be, aka he feels like a Concission scum flip damns me due to whatver bullshit he wrote in his wall, so he uses it to justify his vote on me.

AND YOU CLOWNS ARE FALLING FOR THIS

Hey, I saw a connection between you and Concission day 2. It's not my fault it coincidentally resurfaced. It could be wrong...because yes, I'm looking at things that could be. I'm guessing your scumhunting is based on things that are confirmed to you, right? Or would that be suggesting you're scum?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I knew you'd like my new avatar! You can take my posts seriously now, right?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Heh, didn't realize it had been so long since my last post.

I honestly have no idea at this point. As much as I didn't like Maemuki's posts, Jarti really seemed town to me towards the end of his stay. Fate pretty much has to be scum, with his SD interactions yetserday. You know what's terrible? A part of me is still telling me Equinox is scum. I know it doesn't make pretty much any sense logically, but I just can't shake the feeling.

It seems like I'm becoming more and more of a distraction. If I have to be lynched at some point, then so be it, I guess. I'll try not to be a waste of space until then.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'm scum I did it, I killed Ythill. I reverse bussed SD for pure WIFOM.

I called him town all day when he was posting. He was my role cop. I'm even making this post now as a las ditch wifom effort.

I'm guilty. I confess.

I just crashewd my bike again and ruined my chances at taking this new girl for a ride ever.

Just kill me
I don't want to see chesskid post

Just kill me.

All WIFOM aside, this needs to die.


Looking forward to chesskid's post....not just because Fate doesn't want it >_>

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Sorry, didn't see that the first time.

There's no reason town wouldn't rush a day. There's specific reason for scum to want to, but that doesn't mean only scum would.

This being said, my town read on that slot is purely from Jarti. Maemuki didn't contribute much and what she did contribute was pretty bad.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Actually, tbh, I haven't checked to see how Maemuki would work as scum with Fate....it will be done.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Let's talk about ponies and unicorns and rainbows. But mostly ponies and unicorns. Rainbows can get all sciency.

My favorite ponies and unicorns are pink. How about yours?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Won't even talk about ponies and unicorns with me? Ouch. That went right through my heart.



^ like that

---

I don't feel the need to ramble on about how scummy Fate is. Arguments for why he's scum have been brought up and repeated over and over. Does it not even occur to you that Fate, who, up until late day 2 said I was town, has suddenly decided that everything I post is scummy? Do you honestly believe he suddenly had such a revelation that he had been missing the scumminess in every single post I ever make? Seriously. You can talk all you want about "oh, Fate does this as town!" or "nah, Fate doesn't do that as scum!", but in the end, it's just a pile of useless WIFOM. He's even stooped so low as to say he can't be scum because his awesome scum plan is to bus bus bus every time. If he's really as awesome at scum as he's saying, he knows that you don't try the same damn thing every time because after a while,

people start to catch on

.

So there. Is that enough about Fate?


Now Fate, what color unicorns do you like?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I had plenty of time to be unsure or to question this lynch. I've had too long to question it and I'm not questioning whether or not it's right to lynch obvious scum anymore.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

@GreyICE
Second scum read and favorite unicorn color please

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I like ponies.

:goodposting:

There's no reason town wouldn't rush a day.

Sure, there is. I don't know about you, but I love to hear from people on the guillotine. (Never mind that I'm said person right now and like to hear myself talk.) The information they provide is invaluable. I wouldn't have tried to rush Day 3 even if the tracker was alive and tracked a scumbag to a dead body; I'd want to hear what Shadow Dancer had to say first. Instead, Jarti voted at the start of the day and whined, "Can we just end the day already?" Multiple times. If that's not scum play, I don't know what is.

Oh, you meant at the start of the day. I thought you were referring to something else (and when I say "something else", I mean I just took your post without any context). I actually don't remember the start of day 3 (*adds to mental list of things to put off until the last minute*), but that does sound a lot worse.

Actually, tbh, I haven't checked to see how Maemuki would work as scum with Fate....it will be done.

I thought I was scum with Fate...?

I said that and everyone thought/thinks I was/am crazy. vOv They don't think my other personality is crazy though. Apparently only the primary personality is necessarily crazy unless you have a crazy altlernate personality (that didn't sound quite so much like a tautology when I was typing it...it also seemed vaguely on-topic at the time, though I'm really not sure how I made that mistake.). The only thing I'm really any sure of at this point is that Fate is scum. Everything points to it. His play. His play in relation to SD. SD's play in relation to him. Your player slot is kind of like the standard model of particle physics if we were to not find the Higgs boson. Everything fits into place so perfectly. Everything. Except when we get to the final test and where's the goddamn Higgs? In short: I don't know. When you give a read and people start saying it makes them question their scum read on you for being so stupid, it creates a little doubt. And it's slightly depressing.

Also I'm about to lynch you for your avatar, you nimnut.

Change it to a different pokemon. I suggest Mudkips.

No.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

That's fine...but also irrelevant. (also it has nothing to do with posting style, I know for a fact what the main account is)

The point is that he will be choosing between AGM and SD to lynch. He is a good scumhunter (regardless of role-claiming choices) and therefore is more likely to pick scum out of the two of them in the off-chance that they are not both scum.

I'm ok with a shadow lynch...but why are we letting AGM scum off the hook exactly?
I do think Jarti's point is valid. I seem to recall Ythill pointing out yesterday that SD was on every single major wagon that happened.

PLEASE LYNCH AGM OVER MY BUDDY.

That's the only thing in your post that really seems out of the norm to me. The rest seems like just normal interaction.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I only meant to quote the second one of those, I think...

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Fate, what happened to me being obvious scum?

(in class atm and can't address the mountain of posts that have been made since last night)

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Ummm...I'm gonna be honest here; on my first time through the new pages, I thought Fate had just completely lost it and given up. I'm still not entirely sure that didn't happen.

Rather than comb through the last 10 pages and spam the thread more than it's already being spammed (and be stuck reading those pages again), I'm just going to address the important points as I remember them.

Point 1: Fate
There is a huge inconsistency going on in his play right now. He's been screaming and shouting that he won't be lylo mislynch fodder and that if we're going to lynch him, it has to be today. Then he goes and joins every wagon that springs up to try to get someone other than himself lynched. Looks like his I'm-being-lynched-today-or-not-at-all thing goes out the window when he's actually in danger of lynch.

Point 2: LuckayLuck
LL is the player I've had a town read on for the longest this game. That being said, it's interesting to note that Fate's breakdown seemed to really go into overdrive mode when chesskid called him and LL scum. I still don't think LL is scum and I'm not entirely sure LL-Fate interactions make sense if they're both scum (the one-way pseudo-mason relationship from LL's side that suddenly reversed and Fate accepting it but keeping him at arm's length). Overall, LL stays as town for now.

Point 3: VPB
If Fate is town, VPB is scum. I can not at the moment fathom that Fate is town.

Point 4: replacements
So apparently we had 2 replacements come in, read a few pages, throw down a vote, read more of the thread, and not have their reads change at all. Not sure what to make of that. I'm more inclined to call GreyICE scum here out of the two, just because the delayed flips with potential VPB-town would make pushing a mislynch low-risk. Then again, I don't actually remember who either replacement replaced and I'm too tired/lazy to go back and check.

Point 5: Equinox
...has been looking town the past several pages.

Point 6: AGM
Dude, this point isn't about you; it's addressed to you: What the hell are you doing?

@chesskid
Look back at Fate-LL interactions. They would be fucking weird if Fate and LL are both scum.

I think that's everything important.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Fate has become so incoherent I can no longer tell who his top suspect is. We're all voting him, right? Oh, wait, no, we're voting the guy that wouldn't make any sense as his buddy.

Gotcha.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Mmmm, potential lylo is my favorite time to throw around votes too. I would be more worried if I thought Fate was town.

Here's where I currently stand: If Fate is town (lolol), VP Baltar is very very likely scum. If Fate is scum, my first choice is GreyICE.

I meant to actually bother to go back and make a post to analyze connections, but I logged on and had a new PM for day starting already. Meh.

Not sure there's much to make of the AGM kill. My first thought was to check who he suspected, but you tell me what to make of this. It was either a really bad WIFOM kill or...no, I really have no idea. I pretty much had it as a given that RC would die.

Vote: Fate

. Safest vote atm.

(The "safest" vote here is actually VPB, since I highly doubt a scum team with neither VPB nor Fate, but considering I still think Fate is scum, I do not currently support a VPB lynch.)

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Should probably clarify I was obviously joking about my Fate vote.

FoS: GreyICE

<----My vote is most likely to land there.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Mmmm, potential lylo is my favorite time to throw around votes too. I would be more worried if I thought Fate was town.

Here's where I currently stand: If Fate is town (lolol), VP Baltar is very very likely scum. If Fate is scum, my first choice is GreyICE.

I meant to actually bother to go back and make a post to analyze connections, but I logged on and had a new PM for day starting already. Meh.

Not sure there's much to make of the AGM kill. My first thought was to check who he suspected, but you tell me what to make of this. It was either a really bad WIFOM kill or...no, I really have no idea. I pretty much had it as a given that RC would die.

Vote: Fate

. Safest vote atm.

(The "safest" vote here is actually VPB, since I highly doubt a scum team with neither VPB nor Fate, but considering I still think Fate is scum, I do not currently support a VPB lynch.)

THERE'S NO CURRENT TO THIS YOU FUCKING MORON

IT'S LYLO

IF FATE IS TOWN AND WE LYNCH TOWN TODAY WE LOSE

VPB IS SCUM

HE'S BEEN SCUM FOREVER

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP AND VOTE AND WE CAN WATCH FATE FLIP GREEN AND THE FUCKING GAME WON'T END

OH AND WHY'S THAT?

YOU WANT TO LYNCH FATE BUDDIES BEFORE YOU SEE THE FLIP IN LYLO?

ARE YOU DUMB OR SCUM HERE?

ARE YOU BLIND OR SCREAMING HERE?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Which part?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

If we lynch town today

if Fate is town

, we lose.

I can see your point though. But after it took like 3 days to get Fate lynched, it would feel awesome to nail his buddy the next day.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

VV, why are you voting Fate and FoSing VPB? Fate is on the guillotine.

I'm actually FoS'ing GreyICE, but my Fate vote obviously wasn't serious. My FoS was just a way of making my top suspect clear.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Meh. I tend to be a bit cautious and the fact that there's no way to know whether or not we're in lylo doesn't help.

Vote: VPB

It does mean we end up waiting another day to lynch the final scum, but it is the safest move.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'm not sure if I should be concerned about how fast that hammer was...

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

RC did make a post in the interim, but hammering so soon seems out of character for him.

I'm going to feel really stupid if the reason he wasn't killed is because he's scum -.-

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Wait, so you were scum? >_<

gdi

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Who was the third stooge?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

Meh, forget it, I gotta sleep. I'll find out later (my guess is LL).

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

...I'll stop being cruel.

^5 RC etc etc

The part about needing to go to sleep wasn't a lie though. G'night.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

In answer to Hito's questions
1) It was probably too scum-sided as is. The problem isn't the scum PRs imo; it's the town PRs. Scum role cop means scum can kill someone useful one night later (kind of like what the guillotine mechanic does to town) and roleblocker really doesn't do much, considering scum either have to get lucky or have good PR reads and can just kill any PRs they find anyway because of no protective role. Impatient vigilante probably should have saved his shot for later (having information at the start of day 1 turned out not to be useful because everyone seemed to already have decided Simenon was town anyway), but that was a bit difficult to predict until it was too late. I disagree with turning the impatient vig into a normal vig, as I feel it gives him no incentive to use his ability on someone on-guillotine, which ruins the point of the mechanic. Replacing the tracker with a watcher might make things a bit easier on town. I don't really like watchers in closed setups (it takes little skill to use and punishes a scum team for making good kills), but I think it might give town the power boost it needs here, especially since it's a pseudo-protective role while it's alive.
2) Nah, as long as players know about it ahead of time.
3) I don't really care much about what the setup is, as long as it's relatively balanced and mechanics don't completely detract from normal game play. Would probably play again, but take this with a grain of salt. I never played this from the town side and I'm not sure how enjoyable it would be.


I think this game was a good example of why you can't have a town full of leaders. From the start, the town had 4 or 5 players trying to pull the town in their own directions and all of them were used to just being followed. When those players couldn't coordinate their reads, town was already in pretty bad shape. Those that didn't get their preferred lynches day 1 wanted them day 2. Those that didn't get their preferred lynches day 2 wanted them day 3 etc. The result was that scum were able to take advantage of the wrong reads of several players and honestly just coast to victory. I really should have been lynched day 4 or 5 or whatever day it was for that slip-up about SD hammering. When I originally made the first post of that two post sequence, it didn't seem quite so bad. I think I literally facepalmed though while typing up the second when I realized how bad it would sound. Replacements were a big help though. I don't think I've ever seen replacements so thoroughly divide a town. Fate and Baltar were really the only 2 town leaders left that had any sort of synergy going and once they turned on each other, town was a complete mess.

Kind of funny how everyone the last couple of days thought my reads and opinions were completely absurd, yet no one decided it was because I was scum. I asked Hito earlier in the game if I could replace in under my main (given that it was announced that I was doing so) and he told me not to for iso purposes. I really wonder if I could have gotten away with some of my reads if I was posting under my main.

Thanks Hito for modding and thanks to the masochists that replaced in towards the end.

Also, wow, a lot of people were following this game. I didn't even realize the players were, let alone spectators.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

This guy

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

For the record, I don't see how VPB's post was a scum slip. It looked to me like he was just drawing a conclusion (I haven't been quickhammered, ergo this isn't lylo). Could be biased on that though.

Also, nominate SD for MVP for his on-guillotine play.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I really don't think the scum PRs is the problem. Remember: only scum and tracker have active abilities. A guilty from the tracker in the current setup is the equivalent of a cop guilty. It's probably better for scum just to not use their PRs (like we did in this game) until the tracker is dead and with the tracker dead, scum power roles become considerably weaker. The problem imo is that the tracker is simply too weak to be the only active town PR. I really think a watcher would be better here. It's easier for it to get a guilty and, if the other town PRs are outed first, it can double up as a pseudo-doctor.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

I'd suggest:
1 Jailkeeper
1 1-shot guillotine alignment reporter (publishes alignment of person on guillotine to thread)
1 Tracker

Versus Rolecop, 2xgoons

Something interesting to not is that 1-shot guillotine alignment reporter is the same in this setup as a 1-shot impatient vigilante. There are two differences between a vig and a cop in a normal setup: 1. vig results are publically announced; 2. a vig "investigation" kills the target. In a setup in which the cop target is guaranteed to die anyway, a public cop investigation is going to be worth roughly the same as a vig shot. Plus, if the cop inspects and on-guillotine player and it's publically announced that the on-guillotine player is scum, there's no reason for the on-guillotine player to even continue posting (except to hammer), which isn't likely to be good for gameplay.

If kill-stopping and killing roles aren't allowed, we don't have a huge amount of options left. The bodyguard+watcher combo works, but I don't see it as ideal. Both of those are basically roles that say "no, you can't kill who you want to tonight," which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it makes night kills a little bit of a mine field for scum while both are alive. (Then again, bodyguard was the first role that came to mind for me too when I tried to come up with another role to add...).

Super backup might be an interesting role to consider (takes on the role of the first power role to die), but it would be swingy. Catching the role cop early gives town a very powerful role (role cop is a stronger role than cop), whereas scum killing the alignment investigator/impatient vig early means town gets a considerably weaker role. The swing isn't terrible imo, since strong town play (or weak scum play) is necessary for town to gain a large advantage from it, whereas weak town play or good scum play is needed to send things completely in the other direction.



Also, just to note, Hito was right about lylo. Your situation of 6 "alive" with 1 on-guillotine can't be mylo in this case. Mylo requires that town can safely decide not to lynch anyone. Let's say for sake of argument town was allowed to no lynch. 6 "alive" and 1 on-guillotine, after the on-guillotine player dies and scum kill, turns into 5 alive with no one on-guillotine. If scum is lynched and a player is killed at night, that leaves 3 "alive" with 1 on-guillotine scum. Town can't lynch scum in that position. The day ends in no lynch, the remaining scum night kills, and you're left with 1 scum and 1 town, which is obviously a scum win.